Wing Chun punch

[Sleepflower]

heres a quick question?

Does a wing chun punch extend the arm fully?
or do we keep the arm slightly bent?

[Allan T]

I believe that the elbow should be slightly bent on contact and then straighten!

[tiger_1]

my friends wing chun dnt have puch or blocade w.c. have only forms and positions so... that is in strategy of wing chun ... just friendly tiger_1 :)

/

[azwingchun]

You should have a slight bend in it for a couple of reasons. 1) Once the arm is completely straightened the tendons and muscles cause the energy to begin to snap back, so by allowing the arm to have some bend it allows the energy/force to continue unintterupted. 2) The other reason is when the arm is put out there straight or even in a locked position it makes it even more vulnerable to be broken, the bend in the arm when done properly allows for more resistence.


"Bend where there is straight, and straight where there is bend"

[popsider]

Arm bent - how much depends on how far away the target is - there is nothing more to it than that.

[lotus kick]

the arm should always be bent.
remember that wing chun is about close combat fighting. if you have to extend your arm to punch, then you are not close enough to your opponent.

[azwingchun]

If your arm is straightened when you are punching someone then you need to re-evaluate your distance training or fighting zones.....if you have to straighten your arm to hit your opponent then you either need to use your bui gee techniques or possibly even a kick, or move in closer to your opponent. When issuing power your various fighting zones make a great difference when speaking of power. Even 2-3 inches will change the outcome.

[kungfu cowboy]

A good rule of biomechanic thumb is not to hyperextend the elbow. That= :( You can really damage it.

[lotus kick]

Wing chun is about taking your opponent down on to the floor. in combat, there should be no more than 2 punches just to confuse the opponent. Then you should be close enough for take downs. that's another reason to have bent arms.

The change.

[vertical fist]

Don't you try and "punch thru" your opponent, thus fully extending the arm, then snapping it back? If you're too close to fully punch, isn't that then elbow/headbutt range?

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[fmann]

I agree with vertical fist.

I think it's an issue of extending your arm in a relaxed way -- in other words, not locking out your elbow or anything like that. I think we're all saying the same thing but in different words: Don't lock your elbow, but punch as far as you can w/o forcefully locking your elbow -- there will still be a slight, natural bend ????

[old jong]

I say the arm must be straight but you must be carefull not to hyperextend.
You could compare the punch to a bullwhip!...The power is at the end,when it is straight,it is like steel! A fraction of a second before,it is dull and would not hurt a fly!
Punching any other way (with the exeption of circular) would mean using muscle instead of technique!...(IMO) ;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[azwingchun]

Though I see what you are getting at with the almost straightening of the arm, I have to disagree w/you about not being able to hurt a fly part, if done any other way. I also disagree with the part that if done somewhat bent it would be muscular instead of with technique (unless circular). The power done with the bent arm can be very very powerful if done properly. It's called whipping, it's taught in Bui Jee and actually can also be somewhat seen in chum kui. I am not saying what you are saying is wrong, since I know various systems of Wing Chun use different ways to develop power in thier techniques, though if trained properly the not so extended punch can be a power house of a hit. But I guess the as far as circular goes then you are correct, because the movements in Wing Chun actually move in a very tight circular pattern in a sense. :D

[old jong]

I dont want to be lost in differents family terminology.The bullwhip analogy was to illustrate the power of a well focussed strike.The force comes from the precision and relaxation of the movement himself instead of the tenseness and contraction of a physical effort.If you want to really transfer a shockwave to a target,you need to be relaxed so the wave does not stay or come back in your limb.I just feel that a bent arm (unless it is a circular strike)is not relaxed enough.IMO.
;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[azwingchun]

Boy, that was a quick reply...lol. I completely agree w/you on the relaxation of the body and punch, as well as we all know there is more such as body alignment and such, but I will keep this on just the punch. I actually find that the more someone extends thier arm (or any limb) the more muscle tension there is due to the pulling of the muscles and tendons(maybe not so much tension as resistence). There is a natural pulling back when ones arm (limb) is extended (IMO). Once again I'm not saying you are wrong.......I just like to be right(joking). I also am a believer in keeping slighting more bend to protect the arm from breaks. :D

[old jong]

I would be curious to see if we are not doing exactly the same thing!...These things are hard to put in words!(Is the glass half full or half empty?) :D Nice to chat with you! ;)
BTW, Wing chun guys always want to be right!...It's a law! :D

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[azwingchun]

You know you read my mind. Late last not I wanted to come in and write what your last post said almost word for word. What you call almost straight and what I am calling somewhat bent might be exactly the same thing. But I guess you already said that in similar words.....LOL. :D

[reneritchie]

I'm not sure if the question involves practice or application. In practice, you can extend or not extend (though you should never hyper-extend or you'll risk elbow injury). If you never extend, you may develop the bad habit of restraining the bridge and when it comes to application (where the opponent's body will already alter the dynamic) you may drastically under extend. Working on the sand bag will probably give a good range of motion. Work with the candle another.

In application, its probably a good not to leave the elbow straight, even if pressing, to prevent an opponent hyper extending it and to allow a smooth tranfer of power should you want to hit again (or again and again) with the fist still in contact.

Just some thoughts,

Rgds,

RR

[azwingchun]

I completely agree with you on the training aspect of the punch, there should be some extension, for example when doing chain punches you should not not extend the arm. This would prevent the training of releasing/throwing (not to mention the natural stretching of tendons and muscles) energy and energy development in whole would be slowed if not stopped to a point. :D

[popsider]

az, i assume you mean that you should extend the arm in training? I agree totally, you can't train the wing chun punch without extending.

In application the arm is going to be bent at the point of impact most of the time. If you are aiming to hit at extension then you are ruling out punching from close in - what would be the point in training to generate power over a short distance? Also you are going to risk falling short if you try and judge your punches to impact at extension - hitting closer in means you throw the punch and the arm keeps going until it lands, it can be a little closer or a little further away than you thought and still do damage.

That's my take on it anyway - be interested to hear more from anyone with a different perspective.

[whippinghand]

It comes down to structure. Think about that, and the answer is there, retracted or extended.

[reneritchie]

Structure, has, unfortunately, become a bit of a buzzword (so much so that lately it seems a bit meaningless). What definition of structure is being used? What model? There are many in WCK that talk of structure and each do it/mean it in a very different way. Leung Sheung vs. Tsui Sheung Tin vs. Hawkins Cheung lineages, for example. All are very good but the mechanics are not that similar.

So, structure can or cannot help with this, depending on what you're doing and why (and in some cases doesn't matter 8)

Rgds,

RR

[Roy D. Anthony]

Structure comes from your forms. Without forms one will never know true structure. the Answers are all in the forms when properly done."Properly Done " comes from your Sifu.

[reneritchie]

I'm not sure I follow on that one. Many people do forms, not many seem to have what I define as "structure" (regardless of the method). Forms could be one element of developing structure, but only self-structure (the ability to align oneself while stationary, turning/moving, overturning/recovering). IMHO, this needs to be joined with extensive partner work (know yourself joined with know others). Often, in my experience, this is where the process stalls (very easy to use strength, especially shoulder strength, to make believe structure at that point), otherwise its where it really begins. When strong opposing (in terms of trying to destroy you) force is working on you, structure comes out.

I think this is where you can see people hanging from Tsui Sheung-Tin's Bong Sao, rushing at Ken Chung, getting sunk, and sent flying back, pushing with all their body weight on Robert Chu in Kim Yeung Ma, all without any disruption of structure (no loss of balance or weakness in alignment). (I've seen the latter two live, the first only in picture but I believe Tsui sifu wasn't using any shenanigans ;)

Some use pressure to hone the nervous system for this (so it can learn to rapidly adjust on a reflex level), some extreme relaxation (so there is nothing to interfere with sensitivity and response), and perhaps other methods.

So, I guess, to me, structure connotes the optimal aligment of the body to minimize muscle yet maximize manipulation of force, in a dynamic (combat) manner.

Sorry, got me thinking out loud,

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

I apologize, in advance, for saying, but these people do not have structure. Leung Sheung I would not know about, as I've never seen him.

What you see as structure.... can they apply that structure to their punch? Nope. Whatever it is that they do that appears to be structure, might help their punch, but is it not structure, and therefore does not provide maximum power from maximum structure, using all the factors that you stated previously, and more.

[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 09-10-01 at 03:56 PM.]

[hunt1]

Whipping what do you man when you talk about structure?In my experience both gentlemen can produces an extreme amount of force with little effort.

[Vankuen]

Is it me or does whipping hand seem to try and sound smart with his vague and often condescending comments?

I dont believe a proper wing chun man would act in, or even give question to having bad character.

That is just something Ive noticed over the spread out comments of this "gentleman".

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

[reneritchie]

Have you had any first hand experience with either gentlemen? I've not had the pleasure with Tsui sifu, though I have seen him on tape, but have had the chance to see Cheung sifu in action. Of a certain approach to whole-body structure within the Yip Man family, they both seem excellent examples. Cheung sifu could certainly use his structure to generate and dispel quite surprising amounts of force, especially considering his size (probably just over 5' and not much over 100lbs) and age (in his 50s).

Might be worth a second (or third or forth if that's what it takes) look (or better yet, feel).

Rgds,

RR

[hunt1]

I have spent some time with both Sifus.They have slightly differnt ways to get same results.Speaks volumes for Yip Mans knowledge.Also speaks to the fact that he opened up his full knowledge to very few since few do things the way these Sifu do them.

[whippinghand]

Where'd you get that one?

[whippinghand]

You are right. Looks CAN be deceiving.

[Vankuen]

Wing chun kuen Kuit.....ever heard of it?

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

[reneritchie]

Which is why I asked, do you have any first hand experience with either approach? Which approache(s) to structure do you favor?

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

Structure is structure. There are no "approaches" when it is right. How you apply your structure is where things vary.

[reneritchie]

That's not been my experience. I've met several outstanding WCK people with very different interpretations and implementations of function and whether it was a version I personally favored or not, I couldn't argue with skill 8). Likewise, I've met good Tajiquan, Hung Ga, Baguazhang, Xingquan, and other MA types with good structure, though very different from how I've seen WCK structure.

May I ask how you define structure and how you align to achieve it? Don't worry about being specific 8)

[whippinghand]

It's like you suggested in a different thread... it's easy to explain things but harder to do them.

I can't explain this one, I can only do. Perhaps you'll see it someday.

[whippinghand]

Skill is relative to the practitioner. Your standards for skill may be quite different than mine.

[reneritchie]

No worries. If you want to give an explination a shot, no matter how rough, I'd be interested to hear it. In my experience, pretty much everyone talks about "having structure" (again, buzzword) but most seem to default to shoulders on contact.

We could indeed have different experiences with skill. What are yours? Who, in your experience, has structure? Any example would be appreciated so we can get on the same page.

Also, if not structure, I'd be interested to hear what you think Tsui Sheung-Ting, Hawkins Cheung, Ken Chung, Robert Chu, and some of the other most vocal advocates of it are actually using?

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

Who is my experience has structure? Nobody you know. I don't know about ALL of the people you've mentioned, but most of them use "cheats" to compensate for structure. (Ken Chung is the one I'm not familiar with. He may actually have structure. I don't know.)

"Vocal advocates"? Just because they're well known, doesn't mean they know what they're doing. That's the trick that most Wing Chun practitioners fall for.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

WH would it hurt to mention who you think does have structure? This would give the rest of us a better picture of what you consider to be needed in order to have structure. You say that Rene would know no one that you know. How can you say this with any conviction? Do you know everyone he has met or been privy to seeing? Taking into consideration the considerable amount of effort he has put into researching the art and the travels he has made, is it really fair to imply he would have no knowledge of those you would consider to have structure?

This board provides the chance to become exposed to new ideas and approaches. However it is only as good as what is posted. If you don't share then the rest of us have only the choices of accepting what you say at face value or dismissing it outright. There is little opportunity for growth, on either side. I ask you to consider how this benefits either of us.

I myself would consider Chung Kwok Chow to have fairly good structure, at least compared to me :D Then again, it is quite possible that many people have good structure when compared to me, :rolleyes: and I just suck.

Perhaps we could all get a better idea of what you mean if you could define structure as you see it.

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

I know some people, so please don't hesitate to give some examples. What do you mean by "cheats'? Sounds interesting.

Chung sifu, though I only spent a very short time with him, seemed to have structure in the classic Foshan WCK sense (aligment from knees clamped to one fist distance, hips under, spine straight, posture sunk, shoulders down, etc.) This is very similar to how I learned. Tsui sifu (never met him but seen him on tape) seems to use more arcs in his structure geometry. Cheung sifu, though I also only spent a short time with him, was closer to Tsui sifu (I believe his aligns the 3 points of dan-tien, mid-clavicular, and mid-brow).

I agree with you and it can be the case whether someone is well known or not, which is why I take the well known WCK advice of trying for myself. I'm still curious as to what your experience is with Tsui and Cheung sifu that makes you think they have no structure? Is it first hand? (touching hands with them). From seeing video? From someone elses opinion?

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

Dismiss it or accept it... it's up to you. I have done my deed, by throwing the idea out there, for everyone to now question. It makes no difference to me.

Define structure? Primarily, as I already stated, to explain it would not do it justice. Secondarily, to explain it would disrespect those who have been my examples.

And no, Rene would definitely not know them.

Rene, by your last message, you know the answers already, and do not, therefore, need me to answer. You see what you see, and the answers are there. Cheats are manifested through the details that you mentioned and the lack thereof.

[reneritchie]

You know, they say both god and the devil are in the details, so sometimes its hard to know which is which. I try to assume I don't necessarily ;)

How about Ho Kam-Ming and/or Stewart Fung (Fung Hon)? I've had a chance to see their approaches to structure as well. Would either of them be closer to what you prefer?

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

Don't know.. I haven't seen either of them.

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 09-13-01 at 08:26 AM.]

[reneritchie]

Okay, no worries. Ho Kam-Ming and Fung Hon sifu are not too far from Cheung sifu's approach in my experience, nor is Duncan Leung.

What abbout the Dunn Wah or Leung Ting people?

Rgds,

RR

[sunkuen]

didnt he change his name to Sunny tang? :p

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 09-13-01 at 09:13 AM.]

[reneritchie]

I've seen both used but about 10 years back we helped the Quebec branch of the CCKSF with some stuff and they always referred to him as Dunn Wah, so it stuck (they were almost all Cantonese, however). If he prefers Tang sifu, my apologies.

Rgds,

RR

[sunkuen]

Relax man,call him whatever you want! Just don't call him "bunny tang" or s.h.73 will edit your post! BTW I think Tang sifu has got great hands and has produced some excellent sifu's. Sunkuen

[reneritchie]

No worries. You can't tell tone, nor quality over the 'net so I try to err on the side of caution. I've seen Dunn/Tang sifu at CCKSF events in the early 90s and met some groups of his students over the years. Nice folks.

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

"Ho Kam-Ming and Fung Hon sifu are not too far from Cheung sifu's approach in my experience"

For some reason, I highly doubt that.

"What abbout the Dunn Wah or Leung Ting people"

Nope

[reneritchie]

Okay, I'm calling shenanigans.

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

wow! I couldn't tell...

[EmptyCup]

Fung Hon is my second sifu...you have met him before? where and when if you do not mind me asking...

And Ho Kam Ming has more differences with Fung Hon than I first expected in terms of techniques...

as for William Cheung, his approach is totally the exact opposite of Fung Hon AND Ho Kam Ming's teachings...Cheung likes to go the "roundabouts" way when dealing with attacks...for example, he likes to go out and around to attack from the outside even if he is on the inside...he doesn't usually attack and block simultaneously but rather blocks first and then attacks...etc...

[reneritchie]

No, met one of his students several times but I actually heard good things about him from other branches which is, unfortunately, rare in WCK.

Big same small different, huh? That seems usually the case. In terms of Cheung, I was referring to Hawkins Cheung of LA, not William Cheung of Australia.

Rgds,

RR

[Jeff Brown]

Not that the two are related, just using one post for convenience.

Deng is a family name, the same as that of the (in)famous Deng Xiao Ping; and Hua has a few meanings, one of which is Hua-Ren or Chinese people, another being "bright" like sunshine (hence the translation). Both pronunciations, by the way, are Mandarin (contrary to popular belief, Cantonese isn't synonymous with Chinese -- Mandarin is the official language of China and Cantonese is but one of 300 dialects. Sorry, personal pet peeve just cropped up and now supressed).

At any rate, making jokes about a Sifu's name of all things is IMO not appropriate.

WING CHUN PUNCH -- everyone seems so focused on the elbow; what about the fist??

[whippinghand]

no elbow; no fist

[Jeff Brown]

but the fist is IMO ignored. I have heard/read that the fist should be loose, tightening only at the moment of impact, then relaxing immediately thereafter. Easier said than done!

[wongfeilung809]

is it still too late to kick him off the forum...
simpleangles

[Jeff Brown]

me? what have I done?

[whippinghand]

The fist should not be isolated, until you first understand how to generate power, by unifying the forearm (elbow to knuckles).

[Jeff Brown]

and is this something that can be learned quickly or through much time?

[Roy D. Anthony]

Through much time, but the system is already designed for this progression.
The system is already designed to help you defend at any level, even beginner's level.

My Sifu always said, the first year of your training, one can already use what has been learned to fight substantially. Everything after that is just bonus.

[Jeff Brown]

In today's world, where people (IMHO) don't seem too worried about what kind of damage they inflict on you, just so long as they hurt you, can a student with just a year or so really be expected to be able to use Wing Chun in self defence?

[reneritchie]

I think it depends on both teacher and student as to how long it takes. A good teacher (not the same as a good practitioner) and good student can probably get the idea in place quickly and develop it in a short amount of time. I've seen teachers with backgrounds in TCM and Western physio-sciences do this with even long-time folk who've struggled with it pretty quickly (Robert Chu and John Crescione come to mind from the Friendship Seminars).

I think Roy's point is very good too. Wing Chun Kuen can be used from onset (provided we put the work in from onset) but cultivation/refining takes time.

Rgds,

RR

[EmptyCup]

Meng Shuo -

angles was referring to the forum troll Whipping Hand who goes out of his way to aggrevate other forum members for no apparent reason. Sihing73 once had a vote to decide whether he stayed or not. Whippy was lucky because most moderators would have just banned him without any voting period. H never learned from his lesson and even mouths off to Sihing73 every once in a while...

Rene -

ahhh, I see...so which branches spoke highly of my sifu? He is pretty low key and not many people know about him except the "old guys" :D , the Ving Tsun Association teachers who go back to the Yip Man days...

I always wondered how his name got into Complete Wing Chun... :)

as for Hawkins, I understand now...sorry for the confusion. Fung Hon went to school with him and bruce back in the day...the three of them learned wing chun together...

[EmptyCup]

Rene?

[reneritchie]

Sorry, I'm having trouble accessing this forum lately (server side maintanance coupled with firewall and proxy problems on my end) and a couple of replies I've tried to leave haven't seemed to show up. Please contact me via rene@wingchunkuen.com if you have a chance and we can chat more specifically 8)

Rgds,

RR

[panos]

When a sifu performs a one-inche punch he straightens his hand. So if you want to fully damage your opponent your arm must straighten.
Then of course, if your punch doesn't find the opponent's body then it must not be straightened, because your arm must be loose and not tightened in order to perform another move.
Of course, if you perform chain punching against someone, the purpose is not to beat him with one single hit. Then not-straightened-not full powered punches can also work.
Anyway when you practise and punch in the air you must straighten your arm to exercise it. That is what i've been taught.

[Jeff Brown]

I hear conflicting perspectives on this: some say there is only one Wing Chun punch -- why?

Given the importance of the elbow alone, wouldn't you say that a punch that starts at the chest is different from one that starts closer to the elbow? Must be different.

Chum Qiu has a motion that looks ripe for an upper-cut -- is that not a punch?? :eek:

[whippinghand]

No, that's just a move.

[Jeff Brown]

if you hit someone with a move, and it's a fist that hits, isn't that a punch? or should you say "excuse me"?

[whippinghand]

I was joking.

[Jeff Brown]

So was I!