Revisiting Tiger Claws, etc.

[Ray Pina]

My teacher said something last night that had me thinking about a few threads.

He said, "The reason man is so great is because he realizes his insignificance."

Now, at first, this could seem negative. But I remember when I said that training the human hand to be like a tiger claw seamed awfully like training my nose to be like an elephants nose ... that some said we look to animals for inspiration, such as birds to fly.

But now, I would say man's greatness is in seeing that no matter how he flaps his arms he can't fly. So he uses his brain and designs an airplane.

......

Also, my teacher said that as a fighter, if you're going out to fight, you need "a certain kind of condition", but if you talk about condition, condition, condition, you're against already. You're thinking about putting your condition up against the other guys condition, a sort of "come on" attitude.

Now, this works .... up until you meet someone who conditioned more and is bigger.

Don't most martial arts (artists) pride themselves on not using force against force?



I post these things only as food for thought because its things I've been digesting lately. I don't intend them as trolls or flames. Merely something to be discussed to see other's views.

[MasterKiller]

Tiger Claw revisted. (http://www.senshido.com/swwd2.html)

[red5angel]

I think there is a common movement in the so called mma/sport world, to put down anything not simple and traditional. This is of course a generalization, but one I feel is accurate.

If a human being observes nature and decides to mimic something he sees, he is learning something. Maybe he learns that he can't mimic - for example flying by flapping his arms. Maybe he picks up a valuable, or useable tool or piece of knowledge, or it might set him on the path to something different but of equal value - planes.

Dismissing the imitation of an animals attacks based on the idea that a human being is different is illogical. Sure we have our own way of doing things but by imitating animals, or other aspects of nature we can certainly pick up a few tricks here and there.

The other thing to keep in mind is we are mimicking, but adapting those techniques to the human body. Sure, there might be something "easier" to learn out there, but sometimes it's about the challenge.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with you.

The point I'm trying to bring home is, How many times do you need to dip your hand in the hot bawl of beans, sand, etc to get it tough? Once you do so, has it improved or hampered your quality of life? Could you achieve an equal martial proficiency without doing that? Perhaps quicker?

I'd also argue that the tiger claw is not that great of a technique. Shut your eyes really tight .... not that easy to get in there. AND the head is very mobile, twisting and turning, and the most protected target along with the balls.

I've never seen crane beak tried on me or anyone else in actualy fighting. So again, how much time to develop it? How useful?

These thoughts are just related to my new aproach. I'm still young enough, fast, enought, etc. but I'm 30 and aging. Everything I want now has to be easy to get, easy to use and easy to maintain.

If I have to stretch first, I don't want it.

This of course is just my preference. Like sushi. Just wanted to see how others feel.

[Shaolinlueb]

i dislike sushi.

on the tiger claw, if your fingers are strong enough, who says you have to crab the face right away. there are other chin na's you can do with a tiger claw. jsut have to watch out they dont counter with finger chin na. if you even use a tiger claw in that way. i dont see anything wrong with it.

[MasterKiller]

I use crane beaks to trap, not strike.

[red5angel]

This of course is just my preference

Think this statement more then anything else is the most important.

It's a matter of preference. If someone wants to train for years on end just to perfect an esoteric artform, ok. If someone needs the skills now, adn they need them to be kept simple, ok. there are two keys here, the first is that the former should keep in mind his path and how it affects his fighting ability. It may take him a few years before he has "it", it may take him a decade or more in some cases.
The latter should keep in mind that his way, though more efficient, isn't the only way to do things.

You could argue if and's or but's all day. For example, tiger claw. From what I understadn there is more application then just tearing out someones eyes. If trained properly, you can gouge the crap out of someone, tear important pieces off, eyes, lips, ears, that sort of thing. Sounds funny, but in a self defense situation, losing an ear will make anyone stop and think.
Sure you could squeeze your eyes shut, but what's so hard about blocking a jab or slipping a cross? That sort of thing has to be kept in perspective.
I look at it this way, it's often said on both sides of the argument that training one, or a couple of techniques exclusive would make you really good at those techniques. The next question is, is your opponent at the right ability to stop them?

[SifuAbel]

I think the opinion is one dimensional.

A far as tiger claw position is concerned, it should have at least three basic functions.

Striking with the heel of the palm. main function multiple targets, not just the face.
Clawing flesh. (eagle claw for bone)
Raking the flesh.
If I don't get you in the eye, its no big deal.

Crane beak also strikes with the "head" and hooks limbs.

The names came later. Nobody sat there and took notes.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Also, my teacher said that as a fighter, if you're going out to fight, you need "a certain kind of condition", but if you talk about condition, condition, condition, you're against already. You're thinking about putting your condition up against the other guys condition, a sort of "come on" attitude.

Now, this works .... up until you meet someone who conditioned more and is bigger.

Don't most martial arts (artists) pride themselves on not using force against force? Conditioning is just another one of the tools you should have in your toolbox to be used when you need it.

[FuXnDajenariht]

eeeew....

your not an animal.....fight like a human

in most cases you can't even use the technique like an animal....if you have to adapt it anyway then why not cut out the middle man and not try to mimic in the first place?

you can't actually tiger claw because u dont have 3 inch long claws and about 1000 pounds of muscle behind it....dont tigers mainly use their claws for gripping and maybe slashing as a defensive move?

[Ray Pina]

I hear what you guys are saying and understand and respect your aproach and viewpoint.

At the same time, one does not need a tiger claw to grab someone's ear. And scratching, Kung Fu certainly does not have a monopoly on this sort of thing. Any girl knows it. To go beyond basic everyday clawing ability, how much time?

Also, after a fight you go home and shower and you finds scratches here and there, black and blues, and maybe it stings a bit when the shampoo hits it, but while fighting, a scratch -- if I feel it -- isn't much of a dererant at the time.

Of course, if you have the ability to grab my rib cage and pull of a hunk of meat, then that is awesome and something to be feared. I haven't seen it.

I studied Hung Gar at this school -- http://www.lingnamsiulum.com/sifu.htm -- for a few years when I first moved to NY. It certainly was not a hard core school, but I would guess it's about average on the TCMA scheme of things. The head instructor was a student of Frank Yee back in the day and also studied with another Hung Gar man but I don't remember his name.

[Ray Pina]

Well said Knife Fighter.

I learned that the hard way my first San Da match. Half of the gas out was condition. The other half was nerves/bad over agressive strategy. I'm working on both.

PS
Any knife fighting books that you could recomend? Want to get a slight vocab before I bother my teacher. Also get a few practice blades.

[red5angel]

I think it's a matter of perspective. "Scratches" might not be the apropriate term since they could, with the right conditioning be something more. A freind of mine has an uncle who has studied tigerclaw all his life (eagle claw too I think) about 18 years or so. His fingertips are calloused and his fingernails are thick and tough. He does a ton of conditioning and says it's necesary to get the full impact of the art. He feels the damage he can do with his hands is enough, and he knows other aspects of fighting so it's not the only thing he is relying on.


At the same time, one does not need a tiger claw to grab someone's ear.

of course not, but it's one way. To me it's sometimes about an art being ****genise (sp?).
Wingchun and Capoeira have one thing in common in my personal belief. They are the only arts I have witnessed that appear to have a consistant fighting method. everything one does in wingchun and capoeira lines up perfectly with everything else. It's why I think both arts could be effective if trained properly. One is at one extreme, very simple and uncomplicated, doesn't require a whole lot of athletic capability, the other is exactly the opposite, but the thing that has impressed me most is the completeness of their approach. That's not to say that either way is the best way of going about it.
I imagine, if Tigerclaw is studied correctly, you might get (like a lot of other arts) a complete and more apropriate picture of how it fits into the style as a whole.
What I'm getting at is that while tigerclaw isn't the only way to pull an ear off, if it's a technique in tigerclaw and you train it, it's going to be that much more effective then just reaching for an ear at random. Make sense?

[SifuAbel]

"your not an animal.....fight like a human"

Your not listening.............

[Ray Pina]

All good points Red. I guess its similiar to those old school karate guys you see with caluses ontop of their caluses on their nuckles.

They don't need to get fancy, one hit with that and its like a hammer. You don't see it much any more but there was this big, fat black guy in the stands at the last tournament and my dad pointed out his knuckles. My father's been going to tournaments with me for years and has apparantly developed a good eye.

They guy had some hands.

[red5angel]

I think the biggest problem around here, and probably on other martial arts forums is often people believe what they want to believe.
I think it's reasonable to say you can make just about any art work, the biggest question is for what? Also how?

Would tigerclaw be practical for the ring? I don't think so. Would it be practical for self defense? Sure, if you don't mind waiting a while to get the skill and conditioning you need. Is it a quick fix? Probably not.

Ulitmately I think you just have to weigh all the options and decide whats best for you and what you're willing to put into it, and at all times keep some perspective.

My personal example would be that I'm physically fit, I studied wingchun, and some other stuff enough to feel confident in my self defense abilities, and enough to know it should be my last option.
I'm certainly not fit enough to fight in the ring with anyone who trainsmore seriously then I do, or competes regularly.
I know that Capoeira, while fun and in its own way useful, will probably never make a good choice for me personal to use to defend myself. Maybe if I studied it 4-6 hours a day, 7 days a week, but most likley not, and in any case I'm not going to put that much time in it.
The Kali I take and the wingchun I've taken is much more sensible, and quicker to pick up.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I agree with you.

The point I'm trying to bring home is, How many times do you need to dip your hand in the hot bawl of beans, sand, etc to get it tough? Once you do so, has it improved or hampered your quality of life? Could you achieve an equal martial proficiency without doing that? Perhaps quicker?

I'd also argue that the tiger claw is not that great of a technique. Shut your eyes really tight .... not that easy to get in there. AND the head is very mobile, twisting and turning, and the most protected target along with the balls.

I've never seen crane beak tried on me or anyone else in actualy fighting. So again, how much time to develop it? How useful?

These thoughts are just related to my new aproach. I'm still young enough, fast, enought, etc. but I'm 30 and aging. Everything I want now has to be easy to get, easy to use and easy to maintain.

If I have to stretch first, I don't want it.

This of course is just my preference. Like sushi. Just wanted to see how others feel.

my sentiments exactly. And, I love sushi.

[FuXnDajenariht]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
"your not an animal.....fight like a human"

Your not listening.............


not listening to what?

[hasayfu]

EF, since you are from Hung Gar let me give a little of my POV about the Tiger Claw in that system.

First there are many tiger claws. 10 are explicitly called out in Fu Hok. Let's just look at the classic double tiger claw which is delivered in a bow stance with front arm down and rear arm reaching out in a tiger.
1) It is primarily a palm strike.
2) It uses the entire body in a crashing motion (this is the mimicking a tiger)
3) once the palm strike hits, the "claw" can rip/grab what ever is there

While this does require training to pull off correctly, I don't see it as much more training then a jab/reverse punch combo. The combination of the lead hand pinning down the opponents lead hand and the ease of getting the full weight of the body behind the palm strike makes this pretty powerful with a less chance of hurting your hand. Add in some iron palm training and you have quite a weapon. No need to damage the hand with conditioning.

Now put 10oz gloves on and this becomes pretty useless.

[SifuAbel]

Actually, its a dirty trick. The gloves
don't have padding on the heel of the palm.

[mok]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Tiger Claw revisted. (http://www.senshido.com/swwd2.html)

"The shredder" eh?

As an aside - the guy who created senshido started off w/ ten yrs Hung Gar under my teachers - Bun Hong & Kin Hong in Montreal... :
http://www.senshido.com/sspg1.html

I guess "the shredder" was more marketable than "tigerclaw" - it's even trademarked! - :D