Fighting regimen?

[SAAMAG]

Just saw the Kimble fight. That brought to mind something that I see all too often in the martial arts world. (Lack of) Conditioning.

How often do you all condition yourselves for actual combat? I know that what we do is an art, however the bottom line is fighting ability. One thing I've grown to live by is that in order to fight well, you have to get experience fighting. That would translate at the very least to contact sparring with gear. So given your own personal regimen - what do you all do to prepare for real combat?

[Ernie]

Conditioning is first and foremost in my book

Skill with out conditioning is like praying for best case scenarios’

Plus being fit and in shape at the top of your game is just a better way to live , shows you respect your body and yourself

Sparred a lot over the years , hard cored , boxing . kick boxing , and Thai training , was able to maintain this because I was conditioned

Now since my wing Chun skill has grown , I tend to be more efficient so it takes less to get the job done , and for a while my six pack drifted away =)

The wing Chun curse was trying to get me =)

But thank god for reality checks so back in the gym , gloving up and putting in road work again ,

Except right at this moment damaged my tendon in my arm so my ‘’ hard coring ‘’ will be on hold , but to wing chun’s credit , can still train relaxed with good structure with no pain

But I do miss the sound of leather hitting a sweaty face =}

[iblis73]

Gotta agree, conditioning is tops. Didnt Gotch say conditioning was the best technique? Recently I've been shamed by my 71 year old dad-he walks about 3-5 miles a day, can do 50 pushups at once and 3x a week does 35x10 sets of push ups.

Not just for fighting-I see the shape hes in and his quality of life and health at 71 is better than some folks I know in their 50s. Its an inspiring me to workout again.

That and he keeps taunting me saying I'm a potato ;)

[sihing]

So then if you only had a choice of one over the other what would it be, Conditioning or Skills? And why.

James

[Ish]

I think either extreme would be just as bad as the other

[t_niehoff]

Obviously, if the situation involves a "sucker punch" (what most "self-defense" seems to hinge on), then conditioning may not be a factor (assuming the sucker punch works!). However, in almost any fight with *skilled* or more evenly matched participants, conditioning will be the most significant deciding factor. Only if one fighter *significantly* outclasses another fighter in terms of skill will conditioning not be an issue.

How does one develop conditioning for fighting? First and foremost by fighting as part of your training. You can supplement that with other sorts of training, but the supplemental training cannot replace the primary (fighting) training. Of course, you don't need to take my word for it -- just look at how any genuine fighter trains, and you'll see it.

Regards,

Terence

[CFT]

Also, in a multiple assailant self-defence scenario you will want general fitness and conditioning. Your skills may not be enough to balance out the advantage of numerical superiority, so you need to be fit enough to run away.

Even from a non-fighting point of view, you need to be fit enough to train for prolonged periods. My stamina is absolutely atrocious and affects how well I can spar in class. I am under no illusions that I can totally mitigate this just by improving my skill level because my classmates are progressing at a similar pace. So once my life has settled somewhat (currently trying to move house) I plan to do more aerobic exercise to improve my stamina.

The choice of conditioning vs. skill seems as nonsensical as the choice between speed and power. You need to get the balance right; and to paraphrase Terence, it also depends on the skill level of your opponent(s).

[captain]

my wing chun looks terrible.bong, bong, bong, punch!

russ.

[sihing]

I think the more rules that are involved, like the Kimbo vs. Sean fight, the more conditioning you will need. Sean could have ended it long before but because of the strict rules it lasted longer.

I agree that a good mix of both conditioning and skill is needed to complete a fighter. And I agree that to get that condition you have to do the activity that it is used for, in this case fighting or sparring. Also bag drills and such will help in that case. I also agree that how the two fighters match up with also determine how much conditioning is needed. To evenly skilled fighters will require more time, and therefore more energy and conditioning. When you’re talking about competitions then this happens more often, on the street it may be a different story. What are the chances of meeting a skilled fighter on the street, MA trained or just natural? I'm sure this depends on allot of factors, like where you live, how you live, what you like to do and where you like to hang and with who, etc...

One problem I have is that some do not have the ability to put as much training time in to be conditioned enough as well as skilled enough. When the class availability is limited or the students time commitment is limited then what do you put priority towards while there? Conditioning or Skills training? In our kwoon we have two skill classes and one conditioning class a evening, so if a person could make two nights a week(6 hrs of training) that would be a good start, is that allot for the average Martial Artist or is more needed?


James

[SAAMAG]

I would say the amount of training needed in both conditioning and skill level is "as much as you can get". Now conditioning, since it has to do with tearing down the body either musclularly or vascularly, should have it's weekly limits so that the body can recooperate stronger than it was before. A lot of people that train, overtrain, and hit a plateau in terms of increasing their limits. Improving skill can be increased without limits in my mind. So there is really no limitation to how much you should practice the fine skills of your art. As much as your own time permits. Now for me, practicing martial arts is something I've done as long as I can remember, so I could be watching the boob tube and doing a couple kicks here and there, or going over punches, or doing those little handgrips, or something. Even when Im not training, Im training. (I do relax on occasion though)

But my question was more along the lines of what YOU do to train for real combat....ie....full contact session? Cardio drills? Etc.....

Now at the moment with my wrist being broken the "fighting regimen" is on hold, but for me, this training did and will include at least one full contact session a week. I put on the gloves and go to town with someone. Sometimes it's just boxing, somtimes it's muay thai, sometimes it's sanshou/sanda where throws are also allowed. Sometimes it's a drilled sparring wherein one party is working on a specific skill like grappling or throwing, they will most likely have no gloves or the leather gloves with fingers, and only be allowed to counter throw or grapple. It could go the other way wherein one works only kicks and the other only punches. I like the progressive sparring, wherein it starts standing and both parties are free to use any attacks, and if it goes to the ground so be it. The fight continues until one party decides he's had enough or they need to break because of a stalemate.

In addition, I always try to do the typical 3-5 / 30 minute minimum cardio sessions per week. This is actually seperate from my martial arts cardio because I include this in my weight training regimen at the gym (which I do seperate in my mind in terms of time slots) When Im training in my martial arts it also has it's own cardio time simply from doing the drills and whatnot.

I love to drill. Sometimes more then sparring because when we have two skilled individuals drilling, we don't wear any gear or pads, and we will hit at full force. If the other individual screws up in his drill....he's going to get smacked. Hard. So...this provides a most confidence inspiring workout wherein a skill is being applied with full intent, and without the constrictive gear, and with some implied element of control so that it doesnt turn out a sloppy mess, as sparring can be. Now if the attacker realizes that the defender is going to mess up, the punch or kick is pulled or redirected when possible...but it's not always possible. I reserve this type of drilling for people that have built themselves up to it. Including myself. If there is any doubt in the application of something...it won't be done this way. This to me provides a lot of the "skill", as well as the training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"But my question was more along the lines of what YOU do to train for real combat....ie....full contact session? Cardio drills? Etc...."


Teach three classes a week on three different days...

1....two hour class just on chi sao and wooden dummy

1....two hour class on clinch and wrestling

1....3 hour class that covers a lot of wing chun bases but always includes sparring.

All three classes begin with about 20-25 minutes of stretching, Hindu pushups, Hindu squats, situps, back-bridges, chi gung breathing, concentration drills, and some other stuff.

But I also do cardio work (running/shadow-boxing) on three other days of the week....as well as pullups, chinups, and some other stuff on those three days.

The sparring on Saturday's would be a disaster without all the other stuff - especially the stretching and cardio work I just described. Without those 3 cardio workouts - I'd be gassed real quick. The shadow-boxing cardio stuff also includes lots of footwork drills before and during the punches and kicks...really helps prepare for reality fighting/sparring in a big way.

Also spend some time at the 3 hour Saturday class punching/kicking mitts, shields, bags before the sparring.

Very important, imo...to help fine tune those skills with some power and zip.

Also spend time - usually on two different days...watching some video (some private William Cheung stuff and some Catch wrestling stuff). Maybe about 1/2 hour on each...sometimes more.

Big help as preparation for the next day's wrestling class or chi sao class...occasionally as prep for the sparring class.

[Ford Prefect]

Gotta say I disagree as to conditioning being king. I'm a huge fitness buff and keep in great shape compared to most people. I've trained Div 1 athletes succussfully and am very well-read and practiced in most aspects of strength and conditioning. I'm obviously a huge believer in conditioning. It's a hobby and some-what a part-time career for me.

With that in mind, time in your chosen sport/activity is the most important thing bar none. Strength and even endurance work, be it aerobic or anaerobic, are extremely activity specific. One of the big buzz words in the business is "carry-over" because everybody is concerned with how their strength/conditioning training will carry-over to their skills in their activity. This term was coined because lots of people assessed themselves honestly and realized that their gym numbers might be going up, but their performance isn't doing a **** thing. The body is a smart thing that has learned how to meet challenges placed in front of it. The problem is a rule called SAID (Specific Adaption to Imposed Demands) meaning that the body's adaptions in strength and endurance are very activity specific.

Obviously this isn't the case 100% of the time. This is where GPP (general physical preparedness) comes in. Basically you get yourself into generally good shape by doing exercises that have broad carry-over. Now there are dimishing returns here. Getting your squat up to a respectable amount may help in fighting, but once you've been training it a while, then eeking out another 5-10 lbs isn't going to do anything for your performance. This is where SPP (specific/special physical preparedness) comes into play. It's built off your GPP training. Think speed bag, heavy bag rounds, drills drills drills.

Sparring round after round with fresh partners, doing rounds on the heavy bag, and other sport-specific training will do more for your endurance than the latest scientifically proven high intensity interval training or the latest fitness gadjetry to hit the market. Actually fighting will do more for your strength and conditioning in a fight than lifting weights, doing calesthenics, running hill sprints, pulling sleds, doing cone drills, etc etc etc etc.

I think that is overlooked too often especially in the martial arts. Maybe it's just because I visit MA forums a lot, but I see a lot of people who just started training wondering what the best program is for more strength on the mat or more wind while sparring. I'll tell ya what it is. Train your friggin arse off at what you are doing. Go to class/training as much as possible. After training your arse off for a good year or two, then come back, and you'll be ready to reach a new level. Training and training often sets the foundation for your physical skills and attributes in your sport. You need a strong foundation to build on otherwise the rest of structure will be shaky (mediocre results) and likely to collapse (injury).

Training is king for most things.

Adding conditioning on top of training is the key to excelling.

It's not the other way around.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Gotta say I disagree as to conditioning being king. I'm a huge fitness buff and keep in great shape compared to most people. I've trained Div 1 athletes succussfully and am very well-read and practiced in most aspects of strength and conditioning. I'm obviously a huge believer in conditioning. It's a hobby and some-what a part-time career for me.

With that in mind, time in your chosen sport/activity is the most important thing bar none. Strength and even endurance work, be it aerobic or anaerobic, are extremely activity specific. One of the big buzz words in the business is "carry-over" because everybody is concerned with how their strength/conditioning training will carry-over to their skills in their activity. This term was coined because lots of people assessed themselves honestly and realized that their gym numbers might be going up, but their performance isn't doing a **** thing. The body is a smart thing that has learned how to meet challenges placed in front of it. The problem is a rule called SAID (Specific Adaption to Imposed Demands) meaning that the body's adaptions in strength and endurance are very activity specific.

Obviously this isn't the case 100% of the time. This is where GPP (general physical preparedness) comes in. Basically you get yourself into generally good shape by doing exercises that have broad carry-over. Now there are dimishing returns here. Getting your squat up to a respectable amount may help in fighting, but once you've been training it a while, then eeking out another 5-10 lbs isn't going to do anything for your performance. This is where SPP (specific/special physical preparedness) comes into play. It's built off your GPP training. Think speed bag, heavy bag rounds, drills drills drills.

Sparring round after round with fresh partners, doing rounds on the heavy bag, and other sport-specific training will do more for your endurance than the latest scientifically proven high intensity interval training or the latest fitness gadjetry to hit the market. Actually fighting will do more for your strength and conditioning in a fight than lifting weights, doing calesthenics, running hill sprints, pulling sleds, doing cone drills, etc etc etc etc.

I think that is overlooked too often especially in the martial arts. Maybe it's just because I visit MA forums a lot, but I see a lot of people who just started training wondering what the best program is for more strength on the mat or more wind while sparring. I'll tell ya what it is. Train your friggin arse off at what you are doing. Go to class/training as much as possible. After training your arse off for a good year or two, then come back, and you'll be ready to reach a new level. Training and training often sets the foundation for your physical skills and attributes in your sport. You need a strong foundation to build on otherwise the rest of structure will be shaky (mediocre results) and likely to collapse (injury).

Training is king for most things.

Adding conditioning on top of training is the key to excelling.

It's not the other way around.

Good post Ford Perfect. My Sifu advocates the same thing, Train, Train and Train some more to get the most out of it. That's all I used to do in the beginning years of my Wing Chun experience. Since we only had 7/8hrs a week of class time I would practice at work(I was in the security field and had lots of time alone on site), drilling the things I had worked on in class alone. It was around the time I got my instructor's certificate that I started to weight train, but this was not to improve my WC abilities at all, I wanted to get more muscular and hated being skinny, but I'm sure that over the last 8yrs or so it has improved some of what I do in the Wing Chun I train in.

The skill was already there and the increased strength I got from the weights has only added to my individual physical attributes. I have found that as I have matured in the art, and am wiser with it my skill level has increased even though I don't train in it as much as I used to. I also found through the years that teaching the art is also a good way to increase skill level. When your teaching all levels from beginner to advanced students you have to understand all aspects of the system, this therefore translates to a better understanding of it and more overall knowledge of the art, which produces more skill.

James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing

One problem I have is that some do not have the ability to put as much training time in to be conditioned enough as well as skilled enough. When the class availability is limited or the students time commitment is limited then what do you put priority towards while there? Conditioning or Skills training?

combine them. in thai boxing, judo and bjj, our fighting drills also combine conditioning - working the bag, focus mitt work, sparring, technique drills, Uchi Komis (fit ins), kumi kata (grip fighting), etc. all do alot for conditioning as well as building fighting skill. efficiency is key.

In our kwoon we have two skill classes and one conditioning class a evening, so if a person could make two nights a week(6 hrs of training) that would be a good start, is that allot for the average Martial Artist or is more needed?

IMO, that's a good start. It's not alot though. our bjj classes are 4 nights per week for 2.5 - 3 hours, plus we meet on saturdays for extra training... the thai boxing classes have a similar format. Anyone wanting more training will push themselves harder in class, and do more outside of it. for example, when training for a fight, we add roadwork to our regimen - running every other day, and several other exercises in preparation. I'm in the gym daily, in addition to training, and several of our guys are as well.