2 knucles versus 3 Knucles?

[CerberusXXL]

Alright, in karate and many martial arts people punch with the first two knucles. This makes a lot of sense because they are the strongest and most resistant.
However, in wing chun I have to punch with the three smaller knucles. These knucles are pretty weak and will break easily. By the way, I have broken my smaller knucles and its gone forever and yes this bothers me.

I would appreciate if people here could provide some explanation as to why we use the weaker knucles in in Wing Chun?

Thanks.

[azwingchun]

First of all you can still punch w/2 knuckles, depending on where you are striking. The hand should follow the natural line of the arm. For example if your punch is directed from the fighting center and is sent upwards towards the face then you will hit w/the 3 smaller knuckles because of the natural alignment from the fist to the arm. Though the fist should be relaxed and not completely tensed, since over tension of the fist will cause the hand to accept a large amount of the impact. But if I am to punch straight thru at my opponents chest (providing he is similar in height) or possibly slightly lower than the chest area I could be hitting w/the top 2 knuckles, because they are now in natural alignment w/the arm. Still maintaining the relaxation in the fist as well as the body. I used to teach at a Western style boxing club and one of the up and coming fighter's coaches were watching me go thru the dummy form and asked how I was hitting the dummy without damaging my hands, because his fighters always seem to break thier hands even w/gloves on. I explained how the Wing Chun punch worked to him and though I don't really think he really understood what I was explaining to him he was very impressed w/Wing Chun's striking abilities. I hope this helps. :D

[Shadowboxer]

I'm no expert, but the WC fist provides bone alignment with the entire forearm. I think I actually hit with #2 and 3. It makes for a much more stable and hard punch than #1 and 2.

[TzuChan]

The 3 bottom ones

This is what I read about it and it made sence to me.

The smaller the surface you penetrate your enemy with the deeper it gets, the more effective it is. Tose 3 knuckles are the smallest so you hit them with those ones.

Now when I asked me sifu this the first lesson he just told me, when you hit for the face, you will hit him with the 3 bottom ones, it's a natural allignment thingy.

And now a pure freakisch thing from me, perhaps caus most of those chinese fellows are so small they always had to hit upwards to touch something above the knees :) of their opponents they always touched em with the three bottom knuckles :D

When I run into a wall it actually hurts :(

[OdderMensch]

we are a "weaker" art :D

as above, adding that you would never use the fist to a "hard" target such as the top of the head. Some of this was coverd in the palm vs fist pool a while back, if its not still on the first page (and if it has not degraded into a flame fest) i'll bump it up.

[anerlich]

Jack Dempsey's book, "Championship Fighting", gives a detailed description of his philosophy of strikng with a vertical fist and the bottom 3 knuckles. So it ain't just a WC thing.

Wrist alignment is the main reason IMHO. It's hard to punch the head with a vertical fist with the top two knuckles without bending the wrist. OTOH, It's just as hard to strike to low targets with a vertical fist and get good wrist alignment - more than one sifu has recommended punching low with a horizontal fist for that reason.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

As already stated the alignment of the knuckles will occur naturaly witht he bottom three knuckles being the contact point.

An interesting side note, for me at least, as I practiced more and more I would strive to strike with only the bottom knuckle. This puts all of my contact/power into a very small area. Now, to be fair many people have told me this is dangerous and could result in injury to my hand. However, so far I have never injured my hand even when I hit someone in the head. Of course, I try not to fight much, I am sure if I made a habit of hitting people every day the chance of injury would increase dramaticaly.

Peace,

Dave

[azwingchun]

I agree w/you about the horizontal fist for the lower targets.......this also applies to the palms, they should also start to turn the lower the target you are aiming for. The punch will begin to turn inward the lower you punch (in most cases) and the palms will turn outward the lower you go, for proper arm aligmemt.

[dzu]

Total analysis of the fist cannot be done by just understanding one component. The practioner needs to consider structural integrity of the fist, proper alignment of body structure, connection with the ground, and protection of the centerline. All of the above reasons contribute to using a vertical fist and hitting with the bottom three knuckles rather than the top two.

I aim and hit with the middle knuckle because it's in direct line with the radius and ulna bones. The wrist is naturally aligned with the forearm when aiming with the middle knuckle. Also, the middle knuckle projects the furthest away from the fist because of its size and can penetrate the target without a wrist tilt.

Dzu

[Roy D. Anthony]

All methods are effective. Proper alignment is most important. There is of the Fist knuckles we use 2 single knuckles one set of 3 knuckles , another set of three knuckles, then there is the next level of knuckles, as in the 2 styles of phoenix fists.Then there are the fingers also which require different alignments.

[Shadowboxer]

Yeah, what dzu said.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Then comes the 4 versions of Elbow Strikes, and different points of the Hands.

[whippinghand]

is a farce. What centreline???

[reneritchie]

The way I learned, and everything I've seen, heard, read since has led me to believe the basic punch (Yat Jee Chung Choy or Vertical Thrusting Punch) should use the middle two knuckles with the index or pinky involved only so much as different targets (some being more maleable than others) cause incidentally to do so.

Dzu's points, IMHO, are well heeded. When using a body-structure based approach, the skeleton is aligned to maximize power and part of this alignment is elbow to middle-two knuckles (think a nail). To focus on bringing index or pinky knuckles into play breaks the alignment (think a bent nail). To visualize, hit both staight and bent nail with a hammer (body) and check the results.

(Note: different kinds of punches, beyond basic, can bring those knuckles into play, but at those points things other than thrusting, aligned power is being used and hence stress on the wrist joint or hand bones not the factor)

Both Robert Chu (TCM) and John Crescione (Chiro) have made excellent posts and given excellent lectures on this point (outside of WCK/lineage and in the realm of physiology), as have others with a range of professional expertise.

Rgds,

RR

[dzu]

"What centreline???"

The line leading to my center.

Dzu

[whippinghand]

from where?

[Roy D. Anthony]

Proper alignment determines which knuckles are to be used. The correct alignment depends on the flight path of one's attack. These are already predetermined in your Siu Lim Tao. One will find the answers there. Keep up your research.