Ling side/two person sets

[sayloc]

I know this has been discussed before but I feel it is a better post that all of the negative politics going on right now.

some people say the ling side (or two person forms) are essential to training.

some say that you do not have to have it just teaching apps from the forms are enough.

I think teaching the two man sets or the apps can be effective.

but....if you teach the ling side or two person set and the student only does this once a week it is not very effective. Same for showing them an app out of the form, If they do not drill it just knowing the theory behind it will not be enough.

From what I have seen the schools that teach the ling side become effective faster because they drill every day. Having someone in your face every day using actual techniques just makes you better faster.

On the other hand it is very hard to teach people the ling side of forms or drills if they just show up two times a week.

I have two programs one for the hobby student and one for the guy who shows up 4 times a week. Of course the guy who shows up gets all of the two man sets and becomes a fighter.

But, I still like to promote the health aspects of the mantis style as much as the fighting. Everyone can benefit.

and if there was a weak point to mantis I still say it could be the grappling, (not saying it is weak there)

Have a good day

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Check out the latest post by Hitman on the Shaolin forum.

Hitman "They could not apply what they have learnt for the past several years.
However, they could perform their techniques perfectly in a co-operative situations. Why is this?"

A common argument about partnered sets. I can only answer this by saying that while 2-man drills and sets are useful they are still only a piece of the overall training puzzle. Too much focus on one piece or to little on another could be detrimental to your training.

[sayloc]

hua lin

I agree, you have to train all aspects.

I teach two person drills and forms, Three levels of apps for each movement in the forms, grappling from standing and on the ground, and moderate to full contact san shou with the leg kicks and take downs (I dont allow head contact in beginner levels to avoid legal problems), and keep the cardio level of the class high.

I cant say that I have many "good" adult fighters, because they just arnt around long enough, I do have a couple that are ok though.

The kids who strarted the san shou at about 8 or 9 years old and are now about 11 are showing a lot of progress and have better technique and can take the punishment of fighting much better than the adults.

The students who can perform but not apply could just be bad students (If the instuctor is teaching a well rounded system). An instructor can oly do so much, and if the student doesnt really want it then there is not much you can do for them.

I only have about 75 students so I may not have enough people coming through my doors or experience to make a valid point on this though.

Have a good day

[Oso]

why is it assumed that people who do 2 person sets DON'T do single step application? or spar?

2 Person sets.
Single step applications.
Sparring.

you need all of it.

[mantis108]

Well, I am always of the opinion that there is a reason or more other than developing fighting skills with forms. When we are learning form we are learning more that just fighting skills. What's the different when...

A Gunman target practice:

He points
He Aims
He Shoots

If he hits the targets all the time, he has high skills in his "form". Other than knowing he is skilled in hitting with acuraccy what else he is good at?

A boxer showboxes with his combo

He sticks and moves
He Jab cross uppercut and hook

He sparrs the with the same combo and knock out the opponent most of the time. He is skilled in his game. What else is he other than a skilled prize fighter (assumed that he goes professional)? BTW, Boxing and MMA are team sports. It's not just about the individual fighter. What do "YOU" really really get out of it? The price you paid pretty much evens out the prize you get especially after your "team" get its share. :(

I am not trying to be elitist or anything. But there are definitely more than meet the eyes to forms. They go much deeper than developing fighting skills. It is perfectly fine if your goal is to be a skilled fighter but you will be missing out on the way Chinese pugilistic arts as they are intended to be without properly learning/drilling everything about forms including partner forms.

While it is true that we don't necessarily need a partner side to each and every form when we understand how the structure of the form is constructed or derived, it is much more simplier to have a partner side to help explain the form.

I do appreciate the arguement that fighting is fighting. There is no such thing as Chinese, Japanese, Brazilian, Indian, Greek, etc. way of fighting skill wise. You win some and you lose some. But at the same time we can not ignore the fact that each culture's ethics, aesthetic value, worldview and spiritual outlook is going to affact the approach. Thoes intellectual properties blended with the physical skills is what makes the difference. Understanding the greater purpose of pugilistic arts, now you win all the time. ;)

Mantis108

[isol8d]

Originally posted by Oso
why is it assumed that people who do 2 person sets DON'T do single step application? or spar?

2 Person sets.
Single step applications.
Sparring.

you need all of it.

Why do you "need" anything more than sparring? Why do 2 person sets help you any mroe than single step when you could just learn from sparring?

Just wondering....

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

The trouble I see with just sparring is that in the early stages reflexes are triggered. I know there a quite a few here that believe in sparring early in training but consider this:

Everyone has reflexive actions built in and modified by past experiences. Everyone reacts differently to a punch. The process of training should replace that natural reaction with the one from the style. If you teach someone a move then that's great, they know it. But under pressure the original reflex returns. The training needs to progress from a slow (sub-reflex) pace on up.

Students, whether it's machismo or ego or the excitement, seem to want to go fast and all out when they spar and will have a harder time using the moves they were taught (possible explanation for why you don't see the style in the fight). And every time they spar using old relexes it's a step away from what they are trying to acheive.

When they can execute a few basic moves individually while under pressure they are ready to try aplying them in a free sparring session.

I hate to see students rushed into sparring because THEY think they're ready or because the teacher wants a reputation as a fighting school. Get the moves down with forms and drills and don't allow anything else when sparring (even if they lose). Then modify for each students ability until they're successful.

[Mika]

Hua Lin, I agree with everything you said, it's all tried and true. If anyone knows a student whose actions refute Hua Lin's last post in that the student can clearly apply the style in sparring from the get-go, take that student under your wing, because he is one in a million and will make you very proud very soon :)

Having said that, I think there is some room for free-sparring just so that the students get the feel of that world. But it should be short and sweet at first. Later, of course, sparring will be the most important aspect of training for many.

The Tanglang I am learning (Yu family Tanglang from Yantai, taught by Shifu Slawomir Milczarek) has levels of sparring that really are very intelligent and able progress in a concise manner.

And I know what I talking about, too, because I am new to Tanglang, and I really have to take it step by step in sparring to be able to execute anything that even remotely resembles Tanglang. And even then, it most often doesn't...:D

//mika

[Oso]

Originally posted by isol8d
Why do you "need" anything more than sparring? Why do 2 person sets help you any mroe than single step when you could just learn from sparring?

Just wondering....


for flow.

as HLL pointed out, natural reactions will take over and you lose the flavor of the style.

learning and increasing speed on two person sets will build the reflexes to move from one movement to the other w/o breaking style.

I learned kung fu for 20+ years w/o 2 person steps so I know it's possible to learn w/o ling but for me it is a good step to add in.

[sayloc]

Most of you who have been teaching while could put together a form with the movements of your system fairly easy.

You could pull single or double apps out of a form easy.

You could develop self defense or partner drills fairly easy.

I would find it much harder to develop a two person form (a form meant to be done ony as a two person form not solo) and make it come out just right.

And to develop a solo form that flows out and that has a ling side to it seems to be VERY difficult. (Mainly the mantis stuff it wouldnt be that hard to develop a ling side tae kwon do form if you know wht i mean).

I kind of feel that a system that has devloped these intricate forms with the ling sides may have a little more depth to it than another system. One reason is because the masters have had to have spent much more time tearing the system down building it up and putting it all together to build a system like this. I feel this could be a slightly more advanced way to aproaching a system.

I do not have a ling side for most of my sets but just because I dont know somthing or have not experienced it does not make it wrong.

I am always up for something new.

Have a nice day

[yu shan]

I personally enjoy doing partnered forms. The ling side can teach you alot about yourself and how to save your a s s. Sure I think the ling side can be accused of giving in to the Set side. But you do not have to play this game, while playing the ling side, I make the bung lu side (sp)? apply themselves. Kind of work for it if you know what I mean. The ling will also teach escapes and counters. Another phenomenon with partnered sets is the interaction between students and Shifu vs. students. It seems to bring my people closer, sort of bonding. We also encorporate working on Lien, Ling, Pi and Chai. To me, this is the real deal about learning forms. There is the intensity factor also, you can walk thru it, or have to go up against Shifu going to knock your head off. The biggest differance I have seen so far in schools is this aggressiveness. Just my take.