Forms to improve fighting?

[YongChun]

Do you think it would help boxers and BJJ artists to do solo forms?

Imagine a BJJ artist on the ground doing a form.

Form1 SLT: lie on your back for 30 minutes with a 250 pound weight on top of you. (trains the basics)

Form2 CK: roll around from your back to your stomach and stomach to back with your arms and feet flailing around. (trains mobility and coordination of the hands and feet and body).

Form3 BJ: from a lying down position, do pelvic thrusts, touch your feet to your head, and do various contortionist things to prepare for emergency situations.

Then imagine a boxer doing a slow 108 movement form consisting of uppercuts, hooks and jabs but in slow motion in order to get more chi into his punches.

If that sounds ridiculous then what's your excuse for doing a form?

Why not just condition, whack the dummy and then spar?

Ray

[Chronos]

Originally posted by YongChun
Do you think it would help boxers and BJJ artists to do solo forms?


Yes.

[Ernie]

ummmmm shadow box , forms are for sissy's dry land swimming and kung fu movie fanatics ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

The fact that Wing Chun has just a few forms is a good thing - some styles have dozens or even hundreds of them...ridiculous. But forms are good to help keep track of the moves and motions within the system; as well as sometimes helping to develop internal energy (ie.- the first section of SLT).

But don't overdo it.

Spending any more than 10-15 minutes per class doing forms is, imo, not only a total waste of time...but counter productive, because it takes valuable time away from doing more "alive" training. And later on in your training - maybe only 5 minutes or so per class.

And the same with the wooden dummy. It's also like a form - with the extra added benefit of having something solid to actually strike/kick. But as far as the WD is concerned - the more time spent with someone isolating and working the moves with...the better.

[reneritchie]

Forms are good to remember long sequences of movements. Judo people do Kata at black belt level. However, you can be excellent at Judo without doing the Kata at all, just learning the basic throws and then working randori.

Boxing and BJJ have forms, but they are very, very short. Jab+cross is a form. Armbar to omoplata to triangle is a form.

However, the difference, aside from the relative shortness (like San Sik ;) is that they are generally done (for boxing) on bags or mits (rarely in bjj on a grappling dummy like Bubba) which gives feedback, and are worked *extensively* against a live, resistant opponent, drilled first, then freestyle.

If you did Tan Da to Pak Da the same way, you'd probably get pretty good at it. And if you look at Leung Jan's Gulao or Fung Siu-Ching's late-life teachings, you'd see it's not a unique or novel idea ;)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The fact that Wing Chun has just a few forms is a good thing - some styles have dozens or even hundreds of them...ridiculous. Victor,
That's very true, based on my experience. At times you wonder if it's a question of skill or a memory test. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ernie
ummmmm shadow box , forms are for sissy's dry land swimming and kung fu movie fanatics ;)
Hey, You callin' Muay Thai sissy? ;)
Phil

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hey, You callin' Muay Thai sissy? ;)
Phil


just need to get the dirt flying ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YongChun
Do you think it would help boxers and BJJ artists to do solo forms?

depends. If you are talking about multi technique, long, drawn out, catalog style forms, then no. However, if you are talking about single technique drills, similar to shuai chiao style forms, then yes. And, they already use them.


Why not just condition, whack the dummy and then spar?

Ray

you need something to use in order to train proper form. we condition, spar and hit the bag/pads, but we also have a coach show us the proper form. we drill that form repeatedly using various technique drills. The technique drills are directly applicable to fighting without someone having to break them down and show you the application. This lends itself to developing your fighting ability faster.

[Wilson]

"The technique drills are directly applicable to fighting without someone having to break them down and show you the application."


This is a great line and definitely hits at a difference in training methods between traditional and "modern" styles. I have a background in Muay Thai/JKD where we hit pads and bags all the time. I've been struggling with developing simple drills and bag methods that incorporate wing chun movements.

The standard boxing punch combos just seem much easier to work on the pads. Wing Chun blocking and countering are harder to work, especially training to do both at the same time. Has anyone had success with this? Can you share ideas? Maybe I should take it into a different thread?

[t_niehoff]

yongchun wrote:

". . . you need something to use in order to train proper form."

In my view, *proper form* can only be determined from the moment of application not in advance; in other words, form follows function. The linked sets in WCK do not provide ideals of *proper form* but rather provide some clues (ideas) on how we can make the tools work, clues that need to be investigated for oneself (and we can correctly arrive at different conclusions). The linked sets are not training but rather for teaching or for personal investigation (what clue is it trying to get across?).

[kj]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
yongchun wrote:

". . . you need something to use in order to train proper form."


Yongchun didn't write that; Sevenstar did.


The linked sets are not training but rather for teaching or for personal investigation (what clue is it trying to get across?).

My opinion and experience differs from yours on this. For me, the forms are very much a form of physical training.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
My opinion and experience differs from yours on this. For me, the forms are very much a form of physical training.
KJ,

I certainly agree with what you're saying. I also think that Terrance is spot-on with his comments on how the forms provide clues on how the tools can be applied. There is a lot of discovery that needs to be done. I don't believe that the forms should be taken strictly on face value. There's more there that can be discovered in application. But you need to be looking for these "clues".

Terrance says, "In my view, *proper form* can only be determined from the moment of application not in advance; in other words, form follows function." And I don't totally agree here, although I may be overly critical. Proper form can be determined to a large degree by the forms, and in fact "in the beginning" where else would you start? How do we get to application without some basic knowledge of the *proper form*. Application brings the form alive, and at that point we have a sublime circle of form and application - each one strengthening the other in a cycle of refinement and improvement.

At least that's how I see it.

[kj]

Originally posted by Matrix
Application brings the form alive, and at that point we have a sublime circle of form and application - each one strengthening the other in a cycle of refinement and improvement.

Yes, this is true in my experience too.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The standard boxing punch combos just seem much easier to work on the pads. Wing Chun blocking and countering are harder to work, especially training to do both at the same time. Has anyone had success with this? Can you share ideas? Maybe I should take it into a different thread?" (Wilson)

I usually work the mitts/shields with a simple 1-2 combo of vertical fist WC punches...similar to jab/cross...and hooks..and in fact...some jab/crosses...some vertical fist WC lead hand punches by themselves (like a stiff lead jab)....a vertical fist WC punch with the rear hand only...

Then sometimes I throw a WC larp sao into the air with the lead arm while stepping in and punching a mitt with the rear hand WC punch...then do the reverse (rear hand larp sao while stepping in and hitting the mitt with a WC punch off the lead hand...and the same process with pak sao and punch.

But these later drills are more for precision training and simulation of actually hitting a target - and I don't really spend that much time doing them.

I prefer to spend most of my mitt/shield punching time developing power and speed together by just punching the mitts/shields as I first described - without a WC simultaneous block/strike movement...just the vertical fist 1-2 combo, etc.

The wooden dummy is really the best place to try and put simultaneous block and strike stuff together - for optimal WC power, speed, and precision.

[couch]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The fact that Wing Chun has just a few forms is a good thing - some styles have dozens or even hundreds of them...ridiculous. But forms are good to help keep track of the moves and motions within the system; as well as sometimes helping to develop internal energy (ie.- the first section of SLT).

But don't overdo it.

Spending any more than 10-15 minutes per class doing forms is, imo, not only a total waste of time...but counter productive, because it takes valuable time away from doing more "alive" training. And later on in your training - maybe only 5 minutes or so per class.

And the same with the wooden dummy. It's also like a form - with the extra added benefit of having something solid to actually strike/kick. But as far as the WD is concerned - the more time spent with someone isolating and working the moves with...the better.

I know I'm late on this topic, but just wanted to say that I agree with this. You can't get a form down and perfected just the same as you can't study for that midterm exam the night before. Also, beating the dead horse on explicit movements that you aren't getting isn't being resourceful with your time. I believe it's not how long you spend on a form, but if you do it consistently, day after day with guidance....I think that's what counts.

Peace,
Couch

[Matrix]

Originally posted by couch
I believe it's not how long you spend on a form, but if you do it consistently, day after day with guidance....I think that's what counts. Couch,
I certainly agree, and would only add that you should be very mentally aware of what you are doing. Be present, focused on the moment and understand why you are doing it. You need to feel the form, not just repeat a series of movements day after day.

This ties in with another thread, in that one key thing I learned from a seminar with another lineage, was to think about the transitional moments between the beginning and end of a movement. Don't just think of the beginning and end points, but be aware of the in-between motions. It sounds so obvious, and yet I found it so insightful.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
yongchun wrote:

". . . you need something to use in order to train proper form."

In my view, *proper form* can only be determined from the moment of application not in advance; in other words, form follows function. The linked sets in WCK do not provide ideals of *proper form* but rather provide some clues (ideas) on how we can make the tools work, clues that need to be investigated for oneself (and we can correctly arrive at different conclusions). The linked sets are not training but rather for teaching or for personal investigation (what clue is it trying to get across?).

I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying that the forms are giving you what you need to fight. The forms teach you principles of how to fight. The quote above was referring to technique and mechanics. tan sau, gan sau, etc. - how to you train them? drilling and forms, correct? That's all I was saying in with that statement.

[t_niehoff]

My apologies to yongchun for wrongly attributing sevenstar's comments to him.

sevenstar wrote:

"I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying that the forms are giving you what you need to fight. The forms teach you principles of how to fight."

No, they don't. Those are things we superimpose on the linked sets. If you don't believe me, teach an absolute beginner the SNT but don't *tell* him anything -- will he be able to discern these so-called principles for himself from the linked set? No. The principles come from application (fighting), and for those not doing application, from hearsay.

"The quote above was referring to technique and mechanics. tan sau, gan sau, etc. - how to you train them? drilling and forms, correct? That's all I was saying in with that statement.'

In my view, the development loop is that the student learns something (a movement, tactic, whatever), drills it until he becomes comfortable with it, and then puts it into fighting practice -- that practice, in turn, will typically alter, based on personal expression, that particular thing he's working on, which may then need to be further drilled so that he becomes more comfortable with the change, and then it will be put back into the fire, and so on. "Form" is a personal expression, that may continue to change (evolve) with a person based on experience, age, etc.

----------------

KJ, I'm sure you're not alone in seeing the linked sets as a mode of training. Perhaps you could tell us what specific training the linked sets provide?

[old jong]

Originally posted by Matrix


This ties in with another thread, in that one key thing I learned from a seminar with another lineage, was to think about the transitional moments between the beginning and end of a movement. Don't just think of the beginning and end points, but be aware of the in-between motions. It sounds so obvious, and yet I found it so insightful.

I think I remember who brought that!...;)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
I think I remember who brought that!...;)
I'm quite certain that you do! :)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
In my view, the development loop is that the student learns something (a movement, tactic, whatever), drills it until he becomes comfortable with it, and then puts it into fighting practice -- that practice, in turn, will typically alter, based on personal expression, that particular thing he's working on, which may then need to be further drilled so that he becomes more comfortable with the change, and then it will be put back into the fire, and so on. "Form" is a personal expression, that may continue to change (evolve) with a person based on experience, age, etc.



That sounds very reasonable, simple and concrete. It should be everyone's model.

Ray

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YongChun
Do you think it would help boxers and BJJ artists to do solo forms? It might help to bring in more women, kids and men who are worried about getting roughed up a bit. Of course then you would have to differentiate between McBJJ, McBoxing, BJJ, and Boxing.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Boxing and BJJ have forms, but they are very, very short. Jab+cross is a form. Armbar to omoplata to triangle is a form. Those are not forms. They are drills taken from chaining together different techniques. They are quite differnent from TMA forms. TMA applications are derived from the forms. Boxing and BJJ combination drills are derived from the applications.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Those are not forms. They are drills taken from chaining together different techniques. They are quite differnent from TMA forms. TMA applications are derived from the forms. Boxing and BJJ combination drills are derived from the applications.
I'm not trying to be funny with you here but aren't forms simply drills tied together based on the fighting experiences (techniques), of the practitioners of the time?
Phil

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I'm not trying to be funny with you here but aren't forms simply drills tied together based on the fighting experiences (techniques), of the practitioners of the time?
Phil That's hard to say, since we weren't there when the forms were developed in the first place. My feeling is that the answer is probably yes and no. Some forms, or parts thereof, were probably developed from the actual applications of combat. Others were probably developed based more on theory. A style that regularly fights and tests its techniques will probably have more forms based on the former, while one that does not will develop more of the latter as time passes without acutal combat testing.

These days, in many traditional styles, forms come first and applications come afterwards. In BJJ and boxing, the applications are always first, with any drills coming afterwards.

Not to mention the traditional people who are constantly talking about "looking into the forms to find the hidden techniques". You would be laughed out of a BJJ or boxing gym if you suggested this in terms of either of these two disciplines

[Phil Redmond]

Knifefighter, good response. Using theory is good but practical application is necessary. Fighting styles change over time. If we based our fighting techniques on fighting styles used years ago we would be in for a surprise. Do you think the John L. Sullivan style of boxing would work on modern day boxers?
Phil

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Do you think the John L. Sullivan style of boxing would work on modern day boxers?
Phil I doubt it. Boxing has evolved and become more efficient and effective since the days of Sullivan.

As far as forms go, I'd be willing to bet that the more a system actually puts its stuff to the test in live situations, the more likely it is to have very limited or non-existent forms.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I doubt it. Boxing has evolved and become more efficient and effective since the days of Sullivan.

As far as forms go, I'd be willing to bet that the more a system actually puts its stuff to the test in live situations, the more likely it is to have very limited or non-existent forms.
As far as the boxing I agree completley, and on the subject of forms they would be have to be limited and/or change with the times.
Phil

[Knifefighter]

I think the evolution of boxing is a good example of why you can't go with techniques that were around hundreds or thousands of years ago. Boxing is completely different than it was a hundred years ago. There is better strategy, more technical efficiency, increased power delivery, and more overall biomechanical effectiveness in today's boxers.

I think that if people are still doing things the same way someone was doing them hundreds or thousands of years ago, they are going to be left in the dust compared to those using more modern techniques. Any combat system needs to evolve and become better over time. If it doesn't, it will be left behind by those that do.

[old jong]

One thing is certain!...Put John L. and any of today's boxers drunk in a bar and I put my $$$ on Sullivan!...;)

[SAAMAG]

I remember one gung fu man saying (and this was in reference to shaolin) that "the system of fighting is library, and the books are the forms which contain the information used to answer test questions. Test questions being the attacks you're defending in a fight. "

Basically put, the forms are merely a conglomeration of movements from your particular art, put together as a medium with which to learn the MOVEMENTS (not applications) of your particular system. It is up to the sifu/laoshi/sensei/teacher...etc...to teach the applications in real time environments.

So in reference to SLT for example, it's obvious to me that it should be taken as a sort of a booklet of the techniques that make up wing chun at it's core, and obviously the way they are applied in the form (although technically correct in form) are not the way they would be applied in application. To elaborate, the YJKYM is not a fighting stance...the techniques being alive will have variances in application based on the inputs being applied. blah blah..blah blah blah.

Just my two cents.

[t_niehoff]

Knifefighter wrote:

I think the evolution of boxing is a good example of why you can't go with techniques that were around hundreds or thousands of years ago. Boxing is completely different than it was a hundred years ago. There is better strategy, more technical efficiency, increased power delivery, and more overall biomechanical effectiveness in today's boxers.

I think that if people are still doing things the same way someone was doing them hundreds or thousands of years ago, they are going to be left in the dust compared to those using more modern techniques. Any combat system needs to evolve and become better over time. If it doesn't, it will be left behind by those that do.

**Exactly! And understanding this is extremely important in my view. This occured because these boxers were fighting -- and fighting *requires* one to be a pragmatist, not a theoretician or a dogmatist. I say "requires" because the **demands of fighting** necessitates finding the best way for the individual (if they want to improve). The "thinking" of a fighter is IME distinctive, regardless of lineage, style, "system", etc. and could be termed what Bruce called "nonclassical" -- they're always looking for a better way. Thus, not being "bound" to tradition or theory or dogma is a characteristic of a fighter; likewise, being bound to tradition or theory of dogma is a characteristic of a nonfighter (WSL's "use WCK and don't let it use you" or "don't be a slave to WCK").

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hence the need to do some crosstraining...given the infight game that Wing Chun advocates - if the opponent's response is to charge and grab (after you've come in real close)...don't expect that you're going to knock him out with strikes while standing.

Maybe.

But don't count on it...you could find yourself in a clinch within a heartbeat...and possibly on the ground.

Time to pull out other weapons other than "classical" WC.

The same with fighting from long range (trying to get closer to the infight striking position)...using some non-classical WC footwork and longer weapons (ie. - a well placed stiff jab or two) in order to bridge the gap safely to the infight range can work very well.

The same with some long range kicking - as a means to bridge.

[kj]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
KJ, I'm sure you're not alone in seeing the linked sets as a mode of training. Perhaps you could tell us what specific training the linked sets provide?

As a component of a broader training program, here, in no particular order, are some of the non-mutually exclusive attributes that have improved and developed through training in the sets:


improved knee strength and weight/force bearing endurance
increased ability to sustain a low center of gravity
improved stability throughout all joints of the lower body, resulting in a stronger foundation
continuous development and improvement of head to toe posture and balance
improved joint function, fine motor control, and precision in movement and placement
improved ability to settle and relax
improved calmness and patience
improved breath control and more efficient diaphragmatic breathing
improved ability to perceive and functionally integrate the body both in stillness and through movement
improved ability to move the limbs without disrupting the body's position, balance, alignment, degree of relaxation, etc.
improved mental focus and concentration
improved peripheral awareness
with the aid of mirrors or fixed reference objects, improved visual awareness of a virtual opponent's posture and balance, as well as the practitioner's alignment relative to an opponent
increasing range of motion and/or function for Wing Chun specific movements
improved proprioception, kinetic awareness, and "muscle memory" relative to Wing Chun oriented movements and positions, and for the body in general
serves as a calibration and diagnostics mechanism for posture, position, and movement relative to each unique practitioner


These are just a few examples of benefits from training and practice of the sets. As I and others have so often mentioned, complementary and synergistic benefits are realized through iteration between the solo sets and exercises and partner work, with each aspect of training informing the others for continuous cycles of improvement.

I am interested in the benefits others of you experience by virtue of training the sets also.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by kj


I am interested in the benefits others of you experience by virtue of training the sets also.




Since I am out of town and has a little time to burn.


Thus, I have heard,

A form or set such as SLT consist of the development or training or conditioning of

1, developing the MDX or multi-dimentional eXecution which is a training of developing the body of the art. This is about understanding and experiencing the multi-dimention force vectors
of the physical body as a holistic whole. this is beyond structure or specific move. it is a multi-dimentional eXecution of 7 diamentions concurrently. Yes, 7.

2, Developing the Watcher of the Thinker or the Awareness. thus one be able to shutdown the mind chatter in order to observe or handling the pressure. As it was defined by the ancient chinese ancestors. Sensing is about monitoring/ knowing via sensory organs. Aware is about knowing/observing/reading via heart.
since human beings come with lots of variations. Thus, put one under pressure itself doesnt make much different on how to handling pressure. if without a method of training how to handle one's own mind, awareness, thoughts...... etc there will be not much improvement in handling pressure for those born not as courage.


3, Fa Jing, Yes, Ken Geng, or Shock/Stunt power or Chuck Geng (Chuck means speed accerelating) power. WCK has to have this because it a close range art type. WCK cannot effort to have the shao lin hard style long range type of strike generation. WCK has to be speedy in accerelation!


4, a wholesome link of body, breathing, qi or energy, and mind. without this, without a healty physical body, a good breathing habit, a strong Qi/blood circulation, and a healty mind. one doesnt have a strong foundation to make thing happen.


5, The training of both linear and circulating force/momentum. As the sole straight line momentum art is considered as External or Wai Jia by the Internal or Nei Jia very specifically. where the general bottom line of the sole straight line art is who has more physical speed and power Win. This is refer to "Bull fighting" or the competition of the raw force. WCK do not advocate for straight line "Bull fight" for that type of fight default into who is stronger , faster physically Win.


Furthermore,
As it said by the ancient people , The practitioners of the art will go into one of the two paths

1, those who practice the art with spiritual as the ultimate. This will lead to the path of awareness and silence. The more one travelling down this path. the more harmonios and silence one will lead one's life.

2, those who practice the art with fighting as the ultimate. This will lead to the path of competative and survival-ism. The more one travelling down this path. the more competative and survival urge or even aggression, one will lead one's life.



knowing the set doesnt mean any one who knows the above will be the best fighter of the world. But, the set does provide a holistic systemic fundamental training








The set such as SLT is indeed deep. Deep means it's content consist of multi-realm of training.

similar to those who dont buy about set training. I also dont buy the modern is by default better dogma.

IMHO, without observing the subject of investigation clearly and draw a conclusion itself is a Dogma. Similary, I also dont buy those different packaging with Chan or qouting Daoist's Tao Te Ching....slogan where no real training process in the content dogma.


Certainly, posting the above will lead to lots of questions and even personal attack or attempt to discourage in all means for censorship of voice.


So, ignore this post if you dont like. and I wont be able to answer all the details of the process because it is just Thus, I have heard . :D


Just another 2 cents, Dont take me serious. take it just another view. until next time.

Has A nice great Thanks Giving incase I wont be back before then.

[martyg]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Those are not forms. They are drills taken from chaining together different techniques.


That's exactly what san sik are, which are forms (or forms can be considered collections of san sik). So I tend to agree with Rene. Are you familiar with san sik and their concept?

Likewise, Rene's statements are based on his own experience - which includes training in BJJ.



They are quite differnent from TMA forms.


That's quite a blanket statement there.



TMA applications are derived from the forms. Boxing and BJJ combination drills are derived from the applications.

I don't derive my applications from forms, nor do I teach my students in that manner. I derive them from application and the opponent. San sik simply give various skills and attributes that allow me to do this.
Much in the same way you describe Boxing and BJJ combinations - they impart various skills and attributes needed to perform. Not applications themselves. Though people in boxing, bjj, wing chun, and many arts are guilty of not doing that - nobody is exempt.


Marty
Watchful Dragon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[PaulH]

Well, I recommend instead of forms that you read some good books and watch some MA videos for greater insights and understanding. They may help you to improve your fighting abilities in many subtle and substantial ways:

1. Sun Tzu: The Art of War
2. Mushashi: The book of 5 rings
3. Peter Ralston: Cheng Hsin - The Principles of Effortless Power
4. David Peterson: The Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung
5. Paul Vunak: Anatomy of a Streetfight & JKD: Its Concepts and Philosophies
6. Bruce Lee: The Tao of Gung Fu; JKD; & The Art of Expressing the Human Body edited by John Little
7. 36 strategies
8. Marc MacYoung: Floor Fighting-Stompings, Maimings, and Other Things to Avoid When a Fight Goes to the Ground
9. Gary Lam video/DVDs: The Philosophy of Wing Chun Fighting; Wing Chun Kicking 1; Fighting Strategy
10. The Crazy Dog Brothers Stick Fighting Videos

Let me know if you are salivating for more goodies! =D

Happy Thanksgiving, Hendrik!

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Those are not forms. They are drills taken from chaining together different techniques. They are quite differnent from TMA forms. TMA applications are derived from the forms. Boxing and BJJ combination drills are derived from the applications.

And I suppose you know personaly those who putted these TMA forms together?...You have to because you seem to be pretty sure of yourself in order to be posting that kind of comment.

TMA forms,kata,whatever are derived from application and are a way to preserve the art as they are a way to train (form) the mind and body of the practitioner. Kata BTW mean "form" in japanese.

Boxing combos and shadow boxing are forms in a way,linking techniques for drilling is creating some kind of forms.playing scales on an instrument is form.Anything worked with repetition for perfecting is "form" if it becomes a basic regular practice.
Even trolling has many forms.

[yellowpikachu]

To study Wing Chun kuen, if it is Wing Chun Kuen instead of other things. One cannot really seperate Sets or Forms and fighting. Flower and leaf.


Without the WCK forms there is no fighting in WCK way. One grows into another. without the first there would never have the second.
Such forms are conventions for teaching. why do we want to attached to language or a certain "realistics" ways only?

The only True source of Knowledge is to observe, study, and attained mastery in what is within forms and fighting. Only this kind of study has the real value for studying WCK and the nature of reality.


ofcause one can creat thier own way, can take thier sifu's way as the one TRue WCK, but is that WCK? is it or is it not?
Using a TKD enginee with with WCK shape to get into Olympic , is it WCK? Using Boxing principle with WCK shape to knock others out, is it WCK? Using BJJ technics to spar and take down in a WCK class, is it WCK?

similar to everything, WCK has to have limitation because it is not everything. That limitation makes WCK WCK too. and that needs to be know instead of keep re-package things trying to cover up the lack or the limitation of the inherit system or even the
missing art lost while passing down from generation.


What is WCK if not looking deep into the sets or forms? and have a deep understanding of what it is even if it doesnt provide one a solution in the way of fighting one expected to be. and why is there is only one way of fighting reality?



another 2 cents from airport.

[yellowpikachu]

. Originally posted by Knifefighter
Those are not forms. They are drills taken from chaining together different techniques. They are quite differnent from TMA forms. TMA applications are derived from the forms. Boxing and BJJ combination drills are derived from the applications.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Form such as SLT is beyond applications. It is a whole DNA the "contents of the art" and " the Applications of the art."

it is certainly not just a drill put together, caligraphy put together. It is something " living " if one place attention on it.


another 2 cents.

[reneritchie]

Those are not forms. They are drills taken from chaining together different techniques. They are quite differnent from TMA forms. TMA applications are derived from the forms. Boxing and BJJ combination drills are derived from the applications.

I would retort, but the first two lines of your response are contradictory enough all on their own :)

Splice them and you even answer yourself:

"Forms are drills taken from chaining together different techniques."

Of course, many modern forms would be better definded as "empty shells of movement for which the drills they once chained have been forgotten."

Often, this is because people kept the drills more secret than the application.