Oww!!! my bong sau hurts!

[vertical fist]

Yep.
Hurts like a b!tch. :o

I use a good jow and all but at class I have trouble sometimes "toughing it out". Giving and recieving bong saus in drills makes a coward out of me quick. I have class Mon and Thurs and I try and let my arms heal up in between which means I gotta take it easy on the dummy too. :(

I've only been contact training regularly for 3 months now. I'm thinking it's different for different people. I'm still waiting for my arms to toughen up.

What can I do to improve? Is there something I could do with my diet even? Should I give em time to heal when I can or punish myself and train hard. Common sense warns against the latter. My training partners say a little of both.

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[wongfeilung809]

are you clashing wit the force? where does it hurt? does it only hurt when you do a bong sao?
simpleangles

[vertical fist]

Bong sau's the only one that "bothers" me. Woo, tan, fuk can hurt a little on the recieving end after awhile, but I'm cool with that. I'm not a complete wuss. :D

It hurts right where the bone meets the bone. We don't just lift the wing arm up, we spiral it forward, shearing the punching arm. Ouch! :) I'd say it hurts both when blocking and being blocked. When it gets real bad I'll cheat my punch and throw a cross, giving him the the meat of my forearm.

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[wingchunalex]

calcium suppluments will make your bones harden faster, also just keep doing that, there was a kid in my class who bruised easily, just keep training. also try icing your arms, ive never tried it but it is just basic first aid for swelling. also try taking some advil the next day, it helps inflamation. if you need to rest a bit during drills just go softer or try to redirect the force more. good luck

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[ATENG]

"It hurts right where the bone meets the bone. We don't just lift the wing arm up, we spiral it forward, shearing the punching arm. Ouch! I'd say it hurts both when blocking and being blocked. When it gets real bad I'll cheat my punch and throw a cross, giving him the the meat of my forearm."


hey, i'm interested to know how you "throw" a bong sau forward. i've only learned the bong sau as a passive reaction to an oncoming force. is it done as a block? an active deflection?

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[wongfeilung809]

ive seen it as a jamming action, the bong sao, not passive at all...
simpleangles

[old jong]

Sure,the bong sau can be a passive reaction but like all wing chun motions,it can be done pretty active!...Combined with some good angled stepping,it can become a very effective "countering attack" easily uprooting the opponent and destroying his structure.
Just look at it in the third part of SLT. It looks more like a motion than a reaction. ;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[tnwingtsun]

"an active deflection?"

Yes,I know what you mean by passive reaction,
but its a double edged sword,we don't knock
our bong-sao force against force,the idea is to intercept,not bang arms,then feel and redirect while appling constant forward pressure,the active attacking bong-sao can come when the way is clear,after all bong-sao is a deframation that started as a punch

[Roy D. Anthony]

The Bong Sao elbow should never be higher than the shoulder vertically, and neither should it pass your shoulder Horizontally or you suffer Fai Jan (flying Elbow). This also contributes to the bong's weakness.
" Bong Sao, the best and the worst of techniques"
-Ip Man.

[Allan T]

To strengthen the forearm, We usually do what my Sifu calls WC cycles....and the exercise basically starts with the two practioners in abduction stance, one punches..the other reacts with a bong sau....the cycle basically starts when the one who is in bong (still facing square), removes the intercepted fist of the other...the touch on the wrist should bring out the bong reaction...the practioner who has removed the fist continues to control the arm of the other with gum sau and the releases as he is about to strike but ensuring that he strikes into his partner's Bong Sau. Start slowly then increase in pace.

In fighting or sparring the Bong sau should be very light however, as it is meant to be a deformative action...an Intercepted Fist...a fist deforming as the "Way is closed", thereby allowing a counter even with the same hand/arm/elbow

[mun hung]

I don't quite understand how you're hurting your arm while using bong sau as a defensive manuever. I would have to question the application. What kind of a punch is it?

Roy D. Anthony - could you please explain why the elbow in bong sau should never be higher than the shoulder? Curious as I was taught that the elbow positioning varies for different situations and applications.

[This message was edited by mun hung on 09-07-01 at 01:22 AM.]

[chi-kwai]

If I had to guess what you were doing by the description, I would say that your arm forms bong and then risees to meet the opponent's arm. If this is the case, the bong is being applied incorrectly.

Bong should only occur after the opponent's arm makes contact with your forearm. His forward energy pushing against you should rotate your arm and your elbow should rise. Typically, the elbow should not go above shoulder height, nor should the elbow be extending very far from the side of the body. The bend of the arm should be about 135 degrees.

Mun Hung: To answer your question, if the elbow rises too high, you have a huge hole in your defenses. This is the same reason why bong is reactionary and not preventative defense measure.

--
chi kwai

[burnsypoo]

high elbow = more upwards energy instead of more forward.

[chi-kwai]

a high elbow also means that it is likely one is using the wrong response to an attack.

--
chi kwai

[jameswebsteruk]

Problem is, its not necessarily useful us all chiming in with how the bong should be, because we probably all do it differently due to difference lineages.

For example, I'm from WSL lineage, and we dont lift the bong at all. Bong is used to cover the midsection, never the face. The whole point of our bong is to divert the incoming strike sideways, so you can immediately hit with the other hand.

So, we would never get in the situation where the bong arm is getting tired, because the bong does not go against the force.

So I have contributed nothing. Nice one, Frank. D@mn. Back to sleep :)

What did the Zen Master say to the hot dog vendor?
Make me one with everything.

[mun hung]

I was taught that the height of all arm movements can change (bong, tan, wu, fook, etc.) depending on your structure versus your opponents and can also vary due to the application you seek. The base structure of the arm comes from the alignment of the elbow versus an incoming force and is not only adjusted horozontally but vertically depending on the direction of force you are intercepting. So with this in mind, the elbow can be higher or lower than the shoulder. It all depends.

[BeiKongHui]

I think you should do your Bong Sao's however your Sifu tells you no matter what gets said here. If you want to toughen you forearms get some Dit Da Jow and a Chinese rolling pin (like you flatten dough with) and roll it up & down your arms, or strike them against a sand bag or you could do it the old karate way and cover a stick in an intertube or some other piece of rubber and strike your forearms with it, going light at first and progressively getting harder. Some lineages have some drills that toughen your forearms too. Maybe some one could post one for you. A lot of WC folks like to tell you this will lessen your sensitivity but it doesn't, unless you were to just go crazy and build up scar tissue.


I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I belive that BKH has raised a valid point. One should listen to the instructions of his or her Sifu. However, this does not mean that one can not get another view from this type of medium. I know that I have learned from others here and taken some of those ideas to my Sifu and discussed them. Even if I ended up not changing anything I was able to grasp the differences more fully. Besides, it gave me and Sifu some nice discussions. :p

In my mind this type of forum is not really for "learning" Wing Chun. It is more of a way of opening your eyes to other ways of doing things. While some may not raise the elbow above the shoulder while doing Bong others will. This gives us an opportunity to examine the differences and help to figure out which is more efficient for ourselves. Of course one should have some type of foundation upon which to build.

The other big thing I view forums like this for is the developing of friendships. It gives all of us the chance to speak to others outside and inside of our lineages and share a common interest.

My biggest bit of advice is to always question. Ask and really think about how you do Wing Chun. Don't become a slave to the art but become its master, to paraphrase the late WSL. Internalize your art so that it comes from you and is an expression of your own body and needs. Listen to others and accept what you find is useful but also be respectful of other points of view.

Peace,

Dave

[Sharky]

I was taught to have the elbow at the ear

http://www.kamonwingchun.com/images/Bong%20Sao.jpg

But it was changable. The forarm could be a little more horizontal than that too. I don't see how it can hurt unless you don't catch the punch and he punches your forearm.

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[BeiKongHui]

I did not mean to imply that a person would get bad advice here but that at an early stage of learning it's best to do as Sifu says. Experimintation should probably come later. Also, so many lineages do so many things diffrent I have a hard time saying some one does something wrong (unless of course you are using your Bong Sao to protect your knees or something. ;))

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[ATENG]

"Bong should only occur after the opponent's arm makes contact with your forearm. His forward energy pushing against you should rotate your arm and your elbow should rise. Typically, the elbow should not go above shoulder height, nor should the elbow be extending very far from the side of the body. The bend of the arm should be about 135 degrees."

hey chi kwai, this is pretty much how i learned the bong sau also, that unless our arms are somehow caused by the opponent's force to form a bong sao(or tan, fook..etc), it should be a punch. i think my sihing once said that everything is supposed to be a punch, but it takes a different form when encountering a force. it's good to see lots of different methods, gives me more options heheh.

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[vertical fist]

Thanks for all the replies.

As to my structure. I learned to drive the bong forward, it being a yang block and all, but not too forward. My elbow bend is the same in bong sau as in tan sau. My wrist is on centreline and I look to "cover" my opponents neck with it, meaning if I can see his neck, he hit me. In SLT, I "cover" my own neck. Again, when blocking, I don't just throw my bong up. I drive it forward, shearing the punching arm of my opponent. We also "flick" the wrist a little, giving it a "whipping" touch. It's that bone on bone impact that smarts after awhile.

I do everythimg the way my Sifu instructs, but I'm interested in others' opinions, suggestions, and interpretations of the WC system.

The thing with the pain is its hard to maintain good structure when your bong or his hurts you like hell. If my structure is sloppy then I'm not helping either of us. Nevertheless, I plan to press on, train hard and adapt to the rigors the best I can. :)

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[vertical fist]

Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then it's just fun.

I like that. :D

Sifu Randy Williams says during training, "Be careful. No fingers in the eyes... past the first knuckle." :eek: :D

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[vertical fist]

i've only learned the bong sau as a passive reaction to an oncoming force.

To me, that sounds like its use in chi sau.

I don't quite understand how you're hurting your arm while using bong sau as a defensive manuever. I would have to question the application. What kind of a punch is it?

cho ma chey kuen

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[kj]

Looks like you've already diagnosed the cause and effect pretty well.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I learned to drive the bong forward, it being a yang block and all, but not too forward. My elbow bend is the same in bong sau as in tan sau. My wrist is on centreline and I look to "cover" my opponents neck with it, meaning if I can see his neck, he hit me. In SLT, I "cover" my own neck. Again, when blocking, I don't just throw my bong up. I drive it forward, shearing the punching arm of my opponent. We also "flick" the wrist a little, giving it a "whipping" touch. It's that bone on bone impact that smarts after awhile. [/quote]

While this use of bong sau is not uncommon, it is also not universal. 'Bone impacting yang blocks' are not preferred applications of bong sau as I train. Bong sau would be utilized for redirection, controlling, and transitional movements, as examples. As someone else mentioned, we "allow" the bong sau to be formed at appropriate times.

An altogether different response may be more appropriate than a bong sau in the striking scenario as described. The ability to "read" and respond to the opponent's or partner's positioning, "intention," direction and magnitude of force is far more relevant than technique matching (i.e., 'Whenever you perform technique A, I will counter it with technique B'). IMHO, as long as our attention and concern remains at the level of "technique" much of the intrique, paradox, beauty, and power of this art will be overlooked.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oww!!! my bong sau hurts! [/quote]

Yup. "Been there, done that." Hurts me just thinking about it. Some people have "bonier" or more sensitive arms than others, so individual mileage will vary. I'm not sure there's much avoiding the pain and injury, so long as bong sau is applied in the manner and context you describe.

Regards and best wishes,
- Kathy Jo

[ATENG]

"To me, that sounds like its use in chi sau."

yeah, thats pretty much how i was taught to use it. my wing chun is from LT's lineage and i usually hear that its classified as one of the "softer" ones. maybe this is why.

"It's all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then it's just fun."

[whippinghand]

pain = wrong

[Roy D. Anthony]

The Elbow should never be above the shoulder in a locked out position as in the bong, simply because that is the way it is taught, and also coincides with Body Mechanics. you will injure your rotator cuff. Hope this helps.
Remember , keep researching.

[bert.nes]

Well Well Bong sau pain=wrong yes yes bong Sau should be able to freely move in its join!never let it lock up by commiting or over extending it Tan Sau is bong Sau and like wise I can attack and strike with my bong I see a lot of people describing the dumping of weight I think this can be a cause of pain bong Sau is more dimensional than what most Junior practitioners think. I can use my bong hi or low elbow higher than my head but this is all relative to the situation but you can do it with out pain and with out damaging your shoulder incidently I believe I have developed some great shoulder muscles from doing wc wrong for years and only now in my tenth year am I able to do this I train 5-6 nights a week the best way to condition your arms is to not use pads suck it in harden up and learn to use your wc for what it is intended for human contact. By the way I also hit my forearms against door fraims and what not all this can be done with out pain and injury but I have whacked my elbows and **** many times just last night I whacked my elbow on a wall frame.

[Sihing73]

Hello Sifu Roy,

Sorry to but in but I got to add a few things :)

The elbow should be raised slightly higher than the shoulder at least during the forms in order to obtain the proper angle and structure. If the elbow is too low then you will have nothing to use for the incoming force and your Bong will collapse. However, the height can and will vary depending on the circumstance. That's why there are different height of Bong to be found in the forms. Don't believe me? Just look at the dummy and Chum Kui etc.

If you keep the elbow at shoulder height or lower then please explain to me what differentiates your Bong from say Lan. The force with the elbow level is different than that when raised. Differing energies=different techniques.

You are correct that if you do Bong incorrectly you can injure your rotator cuff but this would rely on using force and not relaxing properly into the technique.

One last thing, in none of the families I have been fortunate to train with could one mistake any of our Bongs for being locked out. Not sure what you are referring to here so if you could clarify I would appreciate it.

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

let us know how you're doing when you're 80 years old.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Mr.73, You should look to your Siu Lim Tao, you will find the mystery of your bong sao and the correct positioning.
Regardless of whether you are relaxed or not, students will suffer shoulder problems when the bong is incorectly done, therefore the answer is also there. Enjoy your research!

[azwingchun]

I always enjoy reading how we (kung fu brothers) use the same techniques in such different ways. But as bong sau was taught to me and also the way I pass it on to my students the elbow should never be lifted above the shoulder or head height. This to me for one allows for a greater opening of the ribs and other lower areas of the body, thus causing a slower response in dropping the elbow to defend against a low attack. I can also see some un-needed tension being added to the shoulder. Sihing-unless I am misreading your statement about a bong sau being performed any lower that it would collapse, I would only agree with this if you were not shifting while applying bong sau, but the shift allows this not to happen. Though I do agree with bong sau having high and low areas I connot see bong sau being used with the shoulder higher than the shoulder, I believe an individual should use maybe another technique.IMHO. The difference still between bong sau and lan sau is the angle which it is presented, even the way I perform it the bong sau carries that downward slope. I am not saying that anybody who does it differently is wrong, I just feel that it adds to any tension, which we in Wing Chun always talk about avoiding. Again, I think it comes down to natural body alignment. ;)

[reneritchie]

Any bong sao, done incorrectly, can result in injury and be non-functional. Conversely, any bong sao (regardless of height or passivity) done correctly, can be injury free and functional.

When I learned, we had several heights for Bong Sao, including one high Bong Sao (Pao Bong or throwing wing), and Bong Sao that were both passive (responded to pressure) and active (bridge seeking or structure attacking).

Historically, it was said the high Bong was particularly useful for defending against certain types of South Fist attacks (see: Choy Lai Fut), in modern/western contexts, IMHO there are still angles and types of attack that high Bong Sao offers optimal defense from. (Big Note: you must have, of course, developed the flexibility and relaxation necessary to perform high Bong without breaking your own structure or becoming stiff - very common problems!) An example of this Bong Sao, and its training, are in Siu Lien Tao.

In personal experience I've met lots of folks from lots of lineages who did not agree with high Bong Sao and to the best of my recollection, all of them were vulnerable to certain types of head attacks. Perhaps 90% of the time these attacks aren't encountered, but IMHO, WCK has tools to cover even the other 10%.

As to active Bong Sao, this can cross into the covering thread (sweeping bong sao can cover an area, vertical or horizontal and we have examples of it in Chum Kiu). Mid-level throwing wings can also be used to attack joints or smaller bones (ribs), once the Ging is developed (Bong Sao develops some nice Ging IMHO ;) )

WCK, again IMHO, is yin & yang, and favors the center. When something is done a certain way, we can often look and find its match the other way 8)

Rgds,

RR

[azwingchun]

I am just curious what example you would give for the use of pao bong (throwing bong). The reason I ask this is because though I use this myself I don't use it in the high position, I use this against a very strong attack such as a straight punch. I do this with a side-step as I throw bong sau into the outside of my opponents arm. I also have found this to be an excellant answer to another Wing Chunner's chain punching. I also would like to know if some people are referring to unlimited man sau as a high bong sau, I have seen Wing Chun practitioners use that terminology several times. If that is the case then I guess I do use a high bong sau.

I actually was never shown pao bong, infact I was always told not to ever do this, but would see my Sifu use it over and over against the situations I explained prior. And not until many years later I finally decided to adapt it w/the system I train after training w/other Wing Chunners from other Wing Chun families, who also used it. ;) :D :D

[sunkuen]

Bong sau above the shoulder is crazy.Theres got to be another answer! :)

[reneritchie]

Again, if its relaxed and aligned, its no crazier than any other technique and when missing, again in my experience, the alternative is "ouch, ouch, my head, my head" or "we use something else but I don't know it/can't use it yet".

At high skill levels, I'm sure an expert could use any movement instead, but I'm usually worried about what happens at my lowly skill level 8)

Rgds,

RR

[reneritchie]

Giving examples becomes a somewhat tedious exercise because behind a keyboard everyone can say "oh, I'd just do this" or "ah, I'd use that instead" and you really don't know until under pressure, in real application.

Anyway, some examples would include covering when you see something coming quickly towards you head at temple level but don't have time to ascertain trajectory. Recovering when your bridge is detained an your head attacked at the same time. Transitioning from a mid-level bridge when your head is attacked from the "blind-side". Recovering when an attack already intercepted is re-powered and changed by the opponent (WCK is not the only system that can adapt from a bridge-on position, nor generate short power). To connect and break an opponent's high-level attack in one motion. To intercept an attack coming in high from the rear-side. And others.

Rgds,

RR

[mun hung]

I'm having a hard time concentrating due to all the sh*t going on here in NYC right now, but here goes...

I still don't understand how anyone can be hurting themselves while using bong sau. Does'nt make sense. I seriously question the applications.

As we all know (hopefully) there are all different heights and directions of force for the bong sau depending on the application we are seeking versus the force we are meeting.

The bong sau that I was taught against a straight punch is exactly as Dave mentioned - elbow slightly higher than the shoulder versus someone my own height. IMHO - much better structure against a punch of any worth. The whole bong sau would rise even higher versus a taller opponent punching down at you. Why? To protect your head - like Rene had mentioned. It's easy defending against someone who's playing the same game you are, but how about a real punch to the face by someone who's not? I think you'll be raising that bong high enough to protect that head of yours. ;)

I find alot of schools demonstrating the bong sau against a punch that does'nt even reach! What's up with that? Needless to say - there's alot of quality Wing Chun out there!

Real applications yield real results. The rest is only theory. And theory alone will get you knocked out no matter how nice it sounds or how good it looks with YOUR partner. ;)

Wow! I feel much better already! :D

[Roy D. Anthony]

May I guide all of you to a Publication called the 7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution, which confirmed the way my Sifu taught me Bong Sao. It gives a full explanation of how the rotator cuff has a direct link to elbow locked out positions, and height of this position being no heigher than your shoulder.
However, one may also keep the elbow at the shoulder level yet tilt their stance to have what appears to be a bong with elbow at Ear level.
However a Go Bong sao solves this problem quite readilly so that the elbow rotates and is no longer in a locked out position, which is the way my Sifu taught me. Proper Body Mechanics.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

You are really confusing me with your almost constant refereence to a locked out elbow. In the way I was taught the elbow was always bent so perhaps I am confusing what you seem to be saying with what you intended to say. Where, in Bong Sau do you find a "locked" elbow?

You told me before to "look to my forms". Well, guess what? The Bong with the elbow Slightly higher then the shoulder is to be found within them. Apparently not only in my line as others do it as well.

I ask you again what differentiates a Lan Sau from a Bong Sau in your lineage? Could you give some more detail as to how you perform the Bong?

I may sound like I am coming down on you but that is not my intention. I really am having trouble connecting a locked elbow to Bong Sau.

Peace,

Dave
BTW: At what height do you prefer the arms when doing the Dummy? This could help me to understand your method as well.

[reneritchie]

Another point to consider follows the WCK (at least Sum Nung and Yip Man WCK cite this) concept of "Wing (Arm) Does Not Stop or Stay". If tactile sensitivity is developed, I think there's not so much cause to worry.

Were you to use a Wing Arm as though it were a Lan Sao (Barring Arm) I can see running into problems in certain aligments dealing with certain force vectors (IMHO, you can't just talk about the practitioners arm position without considering the vector of the attacking force - you can cause a lot of damage to the shoulder of a lower height Bong Sao using certain directions and types of force). I think Mun Hung's points are valid in this sense as well.

I also agree with David that referring people to Siu Lien/Nim Tao may not be especially helpful. While I'm sure everyone here thinks their own WCK and sifu's approach are the niftiest thing, there is quite a lot of differences in Siu Lien/Nim Tao and people who can prove the various differences in application, so citing specific reasons and elaborating on specific methods will probably help everyone more, especially considering the nature of what a discussion group is 8)

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

The bong sau can stop. It does not always need to move or flow.

[Roy D. Anthony]

The locked out position is when the elbow swings away from your center (ie. Laterally), within the shoulder line (ie. not Fae Jan)If you are in the slant back stance then the elbow in this position is alright and seems to be above the shoulder but is not.
As for a transitional movement, this is not an excuse for poor body mechanics, it only takes a moment to destroy one's structure.

[kj]

Hi Roy.

Regarding the "locked out position" in bong sau: I am still confused about what you mean, as others seem to be. I have a copy of "The 7-Minute Rotator Cuff Solution" and still am not sure what you are describing. Are you by any chance referring to internal rotation of the shoulder joint, rather than extension of the elbow joint??

Your mention of a "tilted" or "slanted" stance, gives me pause to remember that presumptions about how WC is practiced often hold up poorly outside our own schools or groups, and especially in diverse forums of this sort. It seems as if you're describing some type of a right or left leaning (rather than the motions found in closing of Biu Tze). As an example of differences, if I'm correctly interpreting your stance description, leaning the stance in this way would be considered a defect in the way that I have been taught.

I agree with your [implicit] proposition that the sets are a profound wealth of information. The caveat is, the things revealed to me when I do my sets are probably not entirely the same as the things you discover when you do yours; likewise for others. Still, I am curious - where in your version of the Ip Man sets do you find this slant/tilt body stance?

Regards and thanks,
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

Hi Roy,

Apologies, but I'm not following your "locked out" description. At which moment/point in Bong Sao does this occur? And does it occur during both a static (ie put your hand in Bong Sao and move it into position) and dynamic (spiral turn it into place)?

I agree transitions are no excuse for poor mechanics. My point (which I failed to make 8) is that Bong Sao can be attacked even when is supposedly mechanically sound positions, which is why we have that concept (Whipping Hand, in my experience Bong Sao can't stop because if it does you can do damage to it, so instead it transitions to something like Lan Sao if it stays, which is more stable, or Tan, Fook, etc. if it stops).

WRT "slant", if you mean lean back (head further back then the buttocks, thus the center of gravity broken), this is probably, IMHO, much more dangerous than anything with the shoulder since with the shoulder, you may lose the arm, but with the lean, against a seasoned WCK guy, you'll probably lose the body. Not recommended IMHO.

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

If, in your mind, the bong sau cannot with stand the contact, then your bong sau must be weak. It's not as passive as you might think or apply it.

[reneritchie]

Sorry, am I to understand you use Bong Sao like a hard-style "bad karate" block--tense and rigid with dead force?

If so, we're on different pages. Bong Sao, as I learned it, certainly makes contact and can be passive, neutral, or active (as I'm sure you saw me discuss previously), but I don't advocate rigid, dead application (except in opponents, the worse they do, the better ;)

Rgds,

RR

[Roy D. Anthony]

The Question I have for you Kathy Jo, WADR, is where in your version of the Ip Man sets do you find this slant/tilt body stance?
I did mention SLT.
It seems more and more obvious that many people do not have the right Idea of positioning in the Ip Man System.
Mr. Ritchie, seems to me that any position taken to extremes is unbalanced. How easy students try a concept out, using extremes and draw solid conclusions, within seconds. Just as many students having read and studied Bruce Lee's system try a Wing Chun class once or even just observe one, and draw the same conclusion as Bruce did (ie. Wing Chun is limited).
This gives birth to lack of understanding of the system. Therefore gives birth to a limited version of Wing Chun.
Sincere wishes that this will change.

[reneritchie]

Hi Roy,

Just Rene is fine thanks. Good point on taking things to the extreme. I try to discuss as I play Chi Sao, always seeking the center and ready to adjust whenever needed.

I'm afraid I miss the point on Bruce Lee and I'm still not sure what you mean by "Ip Man" system. I've met KJ's sifu, who has a very good Yip Man lineage and seemed top notch enough to me, and I've met and seen many from your lineage as well. Both are similar in some ways, different in others. Which has the right idea? Maybe both, maybe one, maybe neither. How do we know if we don't explore?

Rgds,

RR

[Sihing73]

Hello Roy,

You are asking questions of KJ but I have yet to get a response to the several questions I have asked of you. If you are truly interested in sharing knowledge then please answer my questions so that I can have a better understanding of where you are coming from.

Where do you find a "locked" elbow in Bong Sau? I can assure you that at NO time is my elbow "locked" during Bong even when "swinging outward".

You mention a leaning stance and I don't think KJ was saying there was one present in her system. But, many students of Yip Man do have a slight backward lean, heck some people even refer to it as the "Yip Man Lean"
:D

Perhaps giving us some detail as to your reference to the 7 minute rotator cuff solution. In other words, for the benefit of us without this publication, why don't you tell us what it says and the application to Wing Chun?

At what level or how do you shape your Bong Sau when you do it?

What lineage do you represent? You indicate it is Ip Man, is it perhaps through one of his sons?

At what level do you have the dummy arms in relation to your body/shoulders when performing the set?

An answer to any of the above would be a nice place to start. ;)


If you wish to ask questions then I would think it courteous to provide answers as well.

Peace,

Dave

[mun hung]

My instructor learned from Yip Man and we definitely don't lean backwards like that.

Roy - I've got the "7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution" also. Purchased it when I blew my rotator cuff out while powerlifting 10 years ago. I think I know what you mean about the elbow being raised higher than the shoulder, but the bong sau application would be quite different in that respect. Please explain the leaning back you had mentioned in your post. This would seem like sacrificing good body structure for good arm structure.

And the bong sau can be as neutral, passive, aggresive, or active as you want it to be. Depends on the application or results you seek.

[dzu]

Here are some links to learn more about the rotator cuff and the shoulder area in general. This may help those of you that experience pain in the shoulder region when performing bong sau.

http://www.scoi.com/sholanat.htm

http://www.boulderorthopt.com/faqs.html

http://www.kylepalmermd.com/shoulder/shoulder-full-04.htm


In my experience, the bong sau's forte is in spreading out the force using both large and small rotation of the arm and forearm. It can be used passively or actively. IMHO, the shoulder and bong sau are structurally sound when receiving force from the front, but not from above. Against pulling force or a downward force, the bong sau needs to change by dropping the elbow or hand to protect the shoulder. Evidence of this can be seen in the forms. The shoulder joint itself is not a very strong structure and the rotator cuff is very small and prone to injury.

The danger, especially for beginners, is that the safest path for the arm to travel during the bong sau motion is tailored to our indiviual bodies and requires time to train correctly. Copying your sifu without paying attention to your body's response can be a painful lesson. The best way is to feel and judge for yourself.

Dzu

[This message was edited by dzu on 09-13-01 at 02:05 PM.]

[kj]

Hi again, Roy. Looks like I didn't do so well, in my last effort to understand what you were trying to say. :( Here's to your follow-up question nonetheless ...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Question I have for you Kathy Jo, WADR, is where in your version of the Ip Man sets do you find this slant/tilt body stance?
I did mention SLT.[/quote]

I was taught not to lean - backward, forward, left or right - throughout SLT, or any of the sets. At least we try like the dickens not to, save at close of Biu Tze. Our preference is to remain vertical.

Again, may I ask what direction and nature of leaning were you advocating in your earlier posts, and where, for the sake of reference, it is to be found in your sets? Would it be correct for me to assume, based on your response, that you lean backward throughout your entire first set? My first impression after reading your earlier post was some sort of side leaning to achieve the elbow-higher-than-ear position in bong sau, and that is what I had hoped to clarify with you.

May I ask who your teacher or lineage is? Perhaps that will help provide a point of reference for some of us other readers. In case it is of any help for purposes of dialog and mutual understanding, I practice in the Leung Sheung lineage, under Kenneth Chung. Like many here, I have also had the privilege of exposure to many other practitioners and approaches.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It seems more and more obvious that many people do not have the right Idea of positioning in the Ip Man System.[/quote]

Not sure what may have been intended between the lines here, but I won't take it personally. ;)

Despite the confusion, thanks for sharing your views, Roy. I think the lion's share of frustraion is due to the challenges, limitations, and demands of net communications. Hopefully the thread will untangle for better understanding on everyone's part.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

When you're the skill level of Yip Man sifu, you could probably lean near horizontal and stand on one leg and still toss almost everyone else around. In my experience, when someone stands atop a mountain, you can't always assume they just ran straight up. They may have taken a winding path and what they do now may not have been what they did then.

So, while some sifu may look like they lean in pictures or may even just stand around naturally, there might be a lot internalized already and its probably better (unless they're tricking you 8) to do what they say, when they say it. ;)

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

Did I write "tense and rigid"? But at least the "dead force" bit is correct.

"When you're the skill level of Yip Man sifu, you could probably lean near horizontal and stand on one leg and still toss almost everyone else around" ... exactly.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Sorry Mr.73, I thought I did respond to your inquiries, locked out bong, as in the opposite of the locked in elbow of Tan Sao.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Kathy, my apologies, I thought that most Ip Man systems had a tilted spine in the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma. Works quite well in chi sao in dodging head strikes. Properly done this position allows for one not to lose balance. As long as the head does not lean ****her back than your buttocks. However there is a more specific position than this which gives relevance to the position I have mentioned, at no risk of balance.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Dzu, Exactly my point, thank you!

[Roy D. Anthony]

Hello Dave aka.73, did you get my answer?

[Sihing73]

Hello Roy,

Sorry but if you posted it here on this board I must have missed it ;) but then again I can be dense at times and may need things spelled out for me. I have trouble with vague references to things which can be interpreted more than one way.

If you e-mailed me, I have not received anything yet. Of course I only checked my e-mail about 10 minutes ago to reply to someone else so maybe it's still in transit or in cyber-limbo. Could you clarify if you meant here on this board or via e-mail. If on the board could you help me find the answers to the questions like, lineage, height of the dummy arms etc. I still don't quite get the "locked" reference in either Taun or Bong, but remember I can be dense at times. Perhaps you could post a more detailed explanation which someone of my limited abilities could follow and perhaps, <gasp> grasp. Surely a Sifu could do this, after all I am sure not all of your students are as bright as the stars. :D

Seriously, if you truly wish to share knowledge and build ties then this is the place to be. If you are not interested in actually sharing and conversing then I am sure you will not stick around too long. Either way the choice is fully yours. I would welcome your input as I am sure you can offer much. Still, if you are not willing to share then perhaps moussells(sp) or the VTAA might be a better outlet for you.

Peace,

Dave
Sorry if I sound a bit terse but I am not in the best of moods at the moment.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Well Dave, it seems that this is a nit picky method of discrediting me on the forum.
Forgive me for choosing not to answer!
Perhaps another time you may benefit from my Knowledge. As I am sure I may benefit from yours.

[Sihing73]

Hi Roy,

It is not my wish to discredit you. I simply feel that if one posts here they should be willing to share any knowledge they do have. They should also be willing to accept the fact that others may do something entirely different and yet their method could also be viable.

It does little good to come to a forum like this and post vague generalities and then refuse to answer questions asked. I mean, what is the purpose of posting in the first place? You have made several references to various things and yet have not provided anything specific in response to several questions asked of you. I noticed this with Kathy Jo, Rene as well as myself.

I am unsure of your purpose in posting in the manner you did. By all accounts you seem to be a knowledgable person who could add much to discussions about Wing Chun. Still, you could be the best Wing Chun guy out there but if you are unwilling to share or at least consider others viewpoints it does little, IMHO, good to enter a forum like this.

I may not always be right, just ask my wife :p . However, I am willing to not only express my views but try to defend them. Sometimes, I have even been known to admit to being wrong and even change an opinion ;) But, this is because the person I disagreed with was able to articulate their reasons and explain why they did what they do. I can assure you that spouting vague phrases or very general explanations does not impress me, perhaps it does others though.

In any event you already have answered the post, thoughn still no "answers" to specific points :D . If you would like to start fresh then we can try again.

I will open the door by providing my lineage so perhaps you can get an idea of where my methods come from.
Augustine Fong>Roy Undem>Me
Leung Ting>Keith Kernsprecht>Me
Leung Ting>Alan Fong>Me
Ng Wah Sum>Chung Kwok Chow>Me

I have also been priviledged to train with an original student of William Cheung and have met some of the Moy Yat family. In all of these I have found most people to be open and honest. Although our interpretation may have been different we were able to discuss things as adults. In some cases I came away with a new perspective regarding the art I have come to love. I am far from the most proficient person in the art but I have no interest in politics or any agenda. If you want to discuss the art and move forward to make it better for all concerned then I am with you 100%. If you are interested in ego stroking or promotion of one specific way as The Way I am afraid to be of a different mind.

Hope that clarifies my position a bit.

Peace,

Dave

[Roy D. Anthony]

Forum Rules:
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Attachments: Images are allowed. There is an upload limit of 293Kb.Attachments are moderated.
Who Can Post Attachments? Only registered users specifically permitted by the moderators.
Changes: Messages can be edited by their author.Messages can be deleted by their author.Changes must be made within 30 minutes of posting.
None of these were broken on my part or yours.

[Roy D. Anthony]

You are a moderator, moderate, don't dictate and there will be peace.SMILE

[whippinghand]

I got the same message when I first came on.

[Sihing73]

Hello Roy and Whipping Hand,

Please see my reply under the Sihing73 thread.
I will start going through the various threads in the next day or so and begin cleaning up any posts which are of a negative nature. I am sure that some threads will become much smaller afterwards.

Peace,

Dave

[Roy D. Anthony]

If you have the book " Roots & Branches of Wing Chun" turn to page 186, you will see a picture of the tilt I am referring to. I tried to attach a pic here but I don't have the Capability in this forum. As you will note, the shoulders do not pass the heels.

[mun hung]

How about the tilting posture on page 162? Or the one on the lower left hand corner of page 118? What do you think about these postures?

[Roy D. Anthony]

Well on page 162, it's very hard t judge the Angle, however, Leung Ting does seem to have the shoulder no further back than his heel.
On page 118, The opponent getting hit, his shoulders are not further back than his heels also, however the potential of dodging Emins fistdoes exist, the rest depends on his skill compared to Emin's.

[reneritchie]

Good spots, Roy! I think if one took time to analyze the variations displayed by Yip sifu in all the photographs it would send the more narrow minded among us into collective apoplexy (or bring them out of it ;)

I'm not sure, however, if what's in the photo is a dynamic lean to avoid a head-shot. I could also be part of a systematic structure approach (such as the "C" shape often seen in Tsui Sheung-Tin or Hawkins Cheung).

BTW- What do you make of Yip sifu's Tan Sao alignment in the picture 8)

Rgds,

RR

[Jeff Brown]

My technique is undoubtedly not good, but I can say that the near agony I once experienced during Chi Sao -- from bong sao -- is not there anymore. in part, I think this is because the skin and bone do toughen. perhaps more importantly, i doubt i throw it up with the same force as i once did, now that i have developed some other defensive measures to complement it.
Beginners can spend hours with photos and diagrams as prepared by people they don't know, or they can just continue to Chi Sao under the guidance of someone they do know (their Sifu). I think the latter will be the quickest path to progress.

[This message was edited by Meng Shuo on 09-17-01 at 06:17 PM.]

[EmptyCup]

Bong sau is the greatest move in theory but in practice it is the weakest...I'm only referring to the normal high bong and not the pressing bong, the collapsing bong, or the low bong...

the bong's structure is naturally weak and will cause back and shoulder injury. People especially get injured during chi sau when the opponent uses gum sau on a bong and the shoulder rips. Ligament damage like that usually takes at leat 2 weeks to heal but since most of us practice wing chun at least once within that time frame, the injury just keeps getting aggrevated again and never heals properly. This leads to an ongoing problem and vicious cycle which will never be broken unless one stops using the dreaded bong!!! :)

[whippinghand]

It never heals properly because you never do it properly, even when it's injured.

Getting injured is a gift, because it forces you to find the position that doesn't hurt, which is, most often than not, the correct position

[sunkuen]

sorry for what i said about you in the kan wah chit thread,E.C., cuz after what you just said I can see where your level is really at now.

[EmptyCup]

whipping hand - ask any doctor or chiropractor about the bong's structure. It has nothing to do with the "correctness" of the technique...the "correct" way itself is "incorrect" for the human body...

sunkuen - ? i don't quite understand what you're saying...or are you being sarcastic? Please elaborate...

[whippinghand]

maybe u showed him wrong?

[sunkuen]

"the bong's structure is naturally weak and will cause back and shoulder injury. People especially get injured during chi sau when the opponent uses gum sau on a bong and the shoulder rips. Ligament damage like that usually takes at leat 2 weeks to heal but since most of us practice wing chun at least once within that time frame, the injury just keeps getting aggrevated again and never heals properly. This leads to an ongoing problem and vicious cycle which will never be broken unless one stops using the dreaded bong!!! "

Man,your'e fighting force against force.Don't try and say your'e not.

[EmptyCup]

whipping hand - what do you think makes up a "correct" bong? :rolleyes: you're pretty arrogant...

sunkuen - when and how should you use the high bong? any type of deflection or block HAS TO USE FORCE. Otherwise if Wing Chun was so perfect in the application of such theories, most women practioners should be able to kick your arse!!!!!!! ;) ...and let's not forget kids...since I have been practicing since I was younger than 7, I should have been able to defeat most adults but the time I was 12 right?

[EmptyCup]

Correct bong sau as I was taught:

1) bong is never lifted but rather "spiraled" out
2) "tan ging" is used
3) the elbow is slightly higher than the shoulder level

4) the wrist is loose and relaxed
5) the angle is approx. 145degrees
6) the elbow reaches the highest point first
7) the bottom edge of the hand (pinkie side) is facing up

8) bong is always used with stance shifting
9) bong is never still for long but always transitional
10) bong is always accompanied by a "wu", or protective palm

how's that whippy? :D

[sunkuen]

Actually E.C.,my club HAS women that would kick your'e arse!!! ;)

[whippinghand]

Intention makes a correct bong.

[whippinghand]

"the elbow is slightly higher than the shoulder level"

that's your problem.

[sunkuen]

is wrong too!!!

[EmptyCup]

Whippy - i don't see how you "high bong" if it is not high...if your elbow is horizontal, how can you deflect force properly? Maybe you've been doing it wrong all along oh great one...

Sunkuen - how old are you? Must have been offended by the kids comment huh? ;) How would you know they could kick my arse anyways? You don't know jack about me...or my abilities...

You type like a tough guy but that doesn't make you one...just a tough typer :)

[EmptyCup]

pinkie wrong??? what, you do a closed-fist bong, or do you do a salute??? :)

...or maybe you're mixing it up with another hand technique...bong is the one that looks like the one yip man is doing in front of the jong on his black n white pic...

and if you come from his lineage you should pay mnore attention in class!!! and if you don't, that is the "correct way" as taught by yip man...your style may have a different "correct way"...

[whippinghand]

"the "correct" way itself is "incorrect" for the human body..."

well of course, if you have your elbow above your shoulder like that...

Elbow should NEVER be higher than the shoulder. If you want a high bong sau, you flip it to "Go Bong Sau"

[EmptyCup]

i thought "go" meant high in cantonese...

[whippinghand]

I don't really know for sure, the translation. But it looks like an inverted bong, with the elbow down, and the wrist high.

[sunkuen]

Honestly Empty cup,do you think i said all that just too upset you.Think about the things i said.Work with them.Figure them out.

I don't really care if you think i'm a tuff guy or not ,face to face we let the hands do the talkin', here its all just words.This is chi sau too.

This all started when you said big guy's could win at playin chi sau just with brute strength on the victor kan thread.I don't know anybody but the juniors at my club who would agree with you!

:cool:

[mun hung]

You guy's sure use up alot of bandwidth. LOL

I hate to jump on the bandwagon, EC but - I think you need to learn more about the bong sau before you start saying things like it is structurally weak. There's actually alot that can be done with the bong sau.

I don't understand how you hurt your back from doing bong sau either. Could you explain?

[Nichiren]

Hi everybody.

This is my first reply at this forum. I was training WC(Wing Tsun Sifu Emin Boztepe) -98 and was about to take the 5:th schoolgrade when I was really injured. I was doing chi sao with a friend probably 10-15 hours a week outside class schedule. I was relly hooked on chisao and was beginning to feel comfortable when it happened. My friend tried to land a straight right from the side and my bong sau caught it. I let the punch turn me and was about to counter with my left when he pushed hard with his left on my bong. I wasn't ready for it and reacted the wrong way and tried to keep my balance by keeping my structure. My rotator cuff snapped (I didn't now it then!). I tried to train for a couple of months but every time I used my bong it felt like the shoulder was about to separate. During this time when I should have went to a doctor my injure got worse. Finally I went to a doctor and surgery was the only answer to my problems and it took me 1 year to get back. I have trained Jiu-Jitsu rebuilding my muscles since but I'm going to start training WC again soon. I think this may be a lesson to all that start out doing chi sao like crazies when they should focus on performing the techniques the correct way and not use force in the beginning. I have certainly learned my lesson....

By the way, Wing Chun and Jiu-Jitsu really mixes well.

/Cheers!

[reneritchie]

Go does mean "high" or "tall" in Cantonese. With the elbow down and the wrist high, it's probably Lan Sao rather than Bong Sao, but, IMHO, a very useful position.

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

No, it's not lan sau. This wrist is higher than the shoulder.

[reneritchie]

Lan Sao is not so limited; the wrist can be higher than the shoulder. It has more to do with the type of Ging and the path of motion.

Play Chum Kiu a few times and see which qualitatively seems more similar.

Rgds,

RR

[burnsypoo]

it's like a biu sau for most people.

If you picture a bong where the elbow is the same height as the shoulder, extend the wrist up and over the line that your elbow points to (palm facing more down than up) so that the forearm + hand are poiting essentially at 11:30 (but the elbow is at the same height/position as it was in bong). Usually is delivered with a bit of a spiraling energy (go figure! hah). Place someone's fist on your 'normal' bong and then, leaving the elbow in the same spot, sort of point towards the ceiling about 15 feet away. Obviously this is just an example as to the shape, but I thought that it would help give a more visual representation.

The understanding is that this will keep the energy going foreward (as opposed to upwards), and any incoming energy can still be absorbed down through the root.

-BP-

[This message was edited by burnsypoo on 09-18-01 at 08:07 AM.]

[This message was edited by burnsypoo on 09-18-01 at 08:07 AM.]

[reneritchie]

Burnsypoo,

I try to go with the Ging of the movement, and with its motion path. Biu implies 'darting', Lan 'obstructing', Bong 'twining'. So, I tend to use Biu for the one that darts straight out and slices through the attack, cutting it off; Lan for the one that hacks into the attack and obstructs its path to the head, and Bong for the one that twines into an attack and redirects it.

Each purpose will have its own ideals, IMHO, with the Biu straighter, the Lan crossing, and Bong with the wrist lower than the elbow (or in the case of Lan Bong, somewhere in between ;) )

Rgds,

RR

[burnsypoo]

hey rene,
I'm not at a level yet where I can really talk specifically about Gings, so I don't think I should , or could, comment about that (sorry). But as to what you said, I've found that my go bong sau does a mixture of 'darting', and 'twining'.

I realize that a hand position can have many usues, and shows itself in many ways. I find that the go bong sau is a perfect example of that. I never try and make it, it just shows up from time to time and I notice it. I might get rolled into it, I might disperse someone's energy with it (tan ging? =þ ), and hey, it might shoot out and cut through someone's bridge. I never know.

Differing "ging"'s producing differing effects when I use it maybe?

-BP-

[reneritchie]

Mr. Burns,

Excellent...! (Sorry, couldn't resist ;) ) Your comment about showing up, IMHO, is darn good, though. I don't think we (should) ever try to make a bridge and put it out there as a concious, preconceived response, but touch and let the opponent tell how best to defeat them.

Rgds,

RR

[Roy D. Anthony]

Many people mistake a biu sao for a biu jee and vice versa. From all the material I have read, seen and experienced show that a go bong sao is much like the Biu jee, however, the finger must strike forward for it to be called a Biu Jee. Similarly, a Lan Sao turning into a lop sao can easily be mistaken for a biu sao at a lower gate.

**** Semantics! LOL

[Roy D. Anthony]

For those who think that bong is weak. In all my years of teaching, I have been able to prevent this from happening with my students.
Often beginners will have this problem, which I cannot prevent, as this is due to a beginners not understanding how do do it correctly.
After I have corrected them they seem to never have a recurring incident, and the bong is strong.

Another Branch of Wing Chun that I have been exposed to, never do Bong with elbow above the solar plexus. Above the Solar plexus they use a tan sao instead.

Personal note; I don't buy into this, "Well bong never stays" to me, that is not a good enough answer, it's only an excuse to prevent further investigation. Structure must be always strong at the moment of a strike, and a strike takes a fraction of a second.

Think of it this way. If it's in our system, it's there for a reason. I doubt that the founders knowing that it was weak would have included it in the system. Perhaps we are doing it wrong?

[reneritchie]

I think the confusion comes in from different usages of term. The Bong Sao shape, of course, can be structurally sound if done in certain ways (see again people hanging from Tsui Sheung-Tin's Bong Sao). But this is the Bong Sao *shape*, IMHO, and no longer Bong Sao *the action* (becomes Lan Sao or something else). Bong Sao, as our ancestors so well put, does not stop or stay. Anyone can do anything with their WCK, of course, but usually I find it better to think ourselves on what it means instead of think the ancestors were flawed (give them the benefit of the doubt). Again, IMHO, if you Bong Sao, it exists in the moment of its action, and if you stop it or stay it, it is no longer Bong Sao. To put it simply, with a still camera, a snapshot of a pose and an action may look the same but with a video camera, you'd clearly see the difference (one moving, one not).

Going back to the already mentioned problems that can be experienced with the shoulder/rotator cuff, I think we can see why there was this saying on Bong Sao, and why the matching saying (they are typically couplets) advises what should be done if you meet a stopped or stayed Bong Sao ;)

Anyway, with that said, I'm more than happy if anyone wants to Bong Sao Juk Lao 8) Why make things more difficult for the rest of us 8)

Rgds,

RR

[EmptyCup]

SUNKUEN - "This all started when you said big guy's could win at playin chi sau just with brute strength on the victor kan thread.I don't know anybody but the juniors at my club who would agree with you!"

so just because I stated my opinion you get offended by it and seek to reply in a offensive and confrontational manner? Condescendingly and outright rude??? and then you have the audacity to try to pretend you are opening my eyes and teaching me something? you've got to be kidding...you're a jerk. Don't try to justify it...

MUN HUNG - the rotator cuff injury is essentially a upper back/ shoulder blade injury.

BURNSYPOO - the block you're describing IS a biu sau...or maybe a pressing bong, called "chook kiu bong" in cantonese...hard to say what you're describing csince you can't show me, but in structure they are similar but they differ considerably in application...

WHIPPING HAND - injuries can result even if you're doing something "correctly". The way you are using the term "correct" is to describe the right posture or form in a technique that follows wing chun guidelines or how sifus have taught it. That does not mean it has to be "correct" for your body...the human body was not meant to perform certain tasks. Basketball players have knee strain and injuries, Golfers have waist and back injuries, tennis players have elbow and leg injuries. The point is, if you do certain tasks frequently, even if they are "correct" in terms of the sport you are participating in, that doesn't mean you will remain fine...

This is why your bong sau argument is nonsense...horse stances also stress your meniscus in your knee...did you know that? or wing chun punches hyperextended your arm...same with karate's reverse punches...the list goes on and on...why don't you research a bit first before you act like an expert on the topic...

[whippinghand]

"the rotator cuff injury is essentially a upper back/ shoulder blade injury. "
There's your answer to the injury...

"if you do certain tasks frequently, even if they are "correct" in terms of the sport you are participating in, that doesn't mean you will remain fine..."
Of course, that is why there exist other activities to balance with the other activities of your body. Hmmmm... Chi kung?Siu Lim Tao?

"horse stances also stress your meniscus in your knee..." ... when done incorrectly.
Horse stance is not just a matter of widening your stance and squatting. There is a science to it.

"wing chun punches hyperextended your arm..." WC punches are never to be hyperextended

"same with karate's reverse punches" ...when done incorrectly.

"why don't you research a bit first before you act like an expert on the topic"
Why don't you train first, open your mind to the answers, before you make such definitive statements? Your training does not represent everyone else's.

[mun hung]

Do you do any sort of exercises or resistance work in your WC class?

[joy chaudhuri]

According to Roy Anthony:The Bong Sao elbow should never be higher than the shoulder vertically, and neither should it pass your shoulder Horizontally or you suffer Fai Jan (flying Elbow). This also contributes to the bong's weakness.
----------------------------------
Sorry to disagree.
You wont complete the motion-unless you go a little higher with your elbow and you can get hit
at the top gate if you stay below the shoulder. When done right, the bong sao should not hurt at all!! :D

[Jeff Brown]

Was it fate that brought you to this conclusion?

[whippinghand]

"unless you go a little higher with your elbow and you can get hit"

In any position, you can get hit. That's why there's mobility training.

[Jeff Brown]

doesn't this make one quite vulnerable to arm-twisting?

IMP bong sao is great but the longer it is out there, the more vulnerable you are; the higher it is, the longer it will take to reposition.

In other words, isn't a bong too high an overcommittment/over-reliance on one technique?

[Roy D. Anthony]

Idioms teach in many ways. one is that their meanings also lie in what is not being said.
Be careful when you say that the bong does go higher than the shoulder. eg. if you look at some of the Yuen Kay San articles with pictures, note that when they are doing the bong higher than the shoulder, the spine alignment is tilted upwards. The spine is not perpendicular. However on close inspection you will note that the elbow aligns with the shoulder when the spine is in that tilt.
Therefore that is what I mean by the elbow no higher than the shoulder line.
The bong is not really meant for head strikes anyway. They are actually meant for the ranges below the collar bone.
Then again as all grandmasters are correct why do we not have a solution for the hurting bong?
Could it be that perhaps there is some discrepency in the Wing Chun?

I have people hanging on my bong too.
Does it mean I'm doing it right? I may be doing it wrong and I'm hiding the pain, or maybe the reprocussions are not direct, maybe it's a long term effect, or delayed pain.

Take charge of your own body, Take charge of your own progression. Your body knows the truth. Listen to your body.

[chu yun]

When I do bong sau the elbow is only slightly higher than shoulder level. I still maintain my "c" structure and do not lean back at all. The elbow only raises a little after contact to compensate for the force it is receiving But then again it does'nt have to raise up at all, it depends on the strike and the height of your opponent.

[popsider]

Re original question - using bong that way is going to hurt - you are thrusting it forward to block a punch - OK it does redirect it but it does so by meeting it with an angle to force the punch away.

Other lineages use bong differently and so may advise you that you must be doing it wrong, in fact it is just that they are using it to fulfil a different purpose. For example the wsl way of using bong is quite different.

Just get used to the fact that doing kung fu can hurt - but your arms will toughen/get numbed to the pain.

[vertical fist]

Thanks bros for a good thread. Alot of good discussion.

Popsider, you said it, kung fu hurts sometimes. It's all good though, I've been able to hang in there. I'm still training, harder than ever in fact. :) :cool:

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[whippinghand]

how someone asks a question, get's a myriad of responses... then at the end "wow, what a great discussion, I'll just hang in there, 'cause kung-fu hurts sometimes..." , or as Vankuen put it in another thread, "I guess it was just an off day..."

Did you guys learn a freakin' thing?

[Jeff Brown]

I just thought I was doing it wrong!

Sifu, you didn't tell me!

[Roy D. Anthony]

We study Wing Chun for self defense, yet we do not know how to defend ourselves from ourselves.

Yuen Fen, I am not in disagreement with the bong going high, but what one must understand is that, the shoulder line may tilt along with the spine tilt upwards in the yee jee kim yeung ma. this still does not offend the principle of the elbow no higher than the shoulder (line).

[Jeff Brown]

that's what a sifu is for (and another good reason NOT to learn martial arts from books and videos alone).

a good sifu will point out things about a student that he or she doesn't see, like lack of self-control, for example.

[joy chaudhuri]

Roy:
I dont know what you mean by the shoulder line exactly. If I understand your usage- I do not tilt
my shoulder line or my spine particularly upward when I complete my bong sao.The bong sao(as well as other motions when done right can handle a strike to the face....
as in the lop sao drill. :D

[Roy D. Anthony]

Is your spine perpendicular to the floor when doing this? or is it tilted upward?

Try it with a slight tilt upwards, I bet you that you will find it to feel much stronger. In fact ask someone to force harder on your bong while spine is perpendicular, and you may find the structure breaks down easier than with the tilt.

In fact if you keep the spine erect, bringing the bong elbow to your shoulder level, then tilt the whole structure like a statue, till your center (solar plexus) points upward at the 45 degree angle, you will find that the elbow will be at the ear level.

[This message was edited by Roy D. Anthony on 10-10-01 at 11:30 PM.]

[mun hung]

"In fact ask someone to force harder on your bong while spine is perpendicular, and you may find the structure breaks down easier than the tilt."

Only if the structure of the bong itself is weak in the first place.

Tilting the body back while performing bong sau will only seem stronger if the force you are countering is downwards vertically or diagonally. (or if you are giving "hanging bong sau demonstrations") :D

How about if the force you are countering is horizontal??? Will it work then?

IMHO - sacrificing good bodily structure by tilting to compensate for poor bong sau structure does'nt seem to be the right answer.

[This message was edited by mun hung on 10-11-01 at 02:37 AM.]

[joy chaudhuri]

Roy:
"Try it with a slight tilt upwards, I bet you that you will find it to feel much stronger. In fact ask someone to force harder on your bong while spine is perpendicular, and you may find the structure breaks down easier than with the tilt.

In fact if you keep the spine erect, bringing the bong elbow to your shoulder level, then tilt the whole structure like a statue, till your center (solar plexus) points upward at the 45 degree angle, you will find that the elbow will be at the ear level."
-------------------------------------------------
Hi Roy: Words dont always capture the real motion.
I have no problems with my bong sao. I dont tilt my spine and my bong sao structure does not break down easily. And when I complete the bong sao in
practice, the elbow is slightly higher than the elbow level. We probably are doing things a little differently- but that's OK. Thanks for sharing your views.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Perhaps when we meet, I can show you what I am referring to. However, it is still worth a try as I have done.
Quote:
"No loss of face in the face of learning."
-Roy D. Anthony