Lee Kwan Shan's Wah Lum Mantis?

[lamakwoklee]

Hi All,

I've read somewhere that Lee Kwan Shan's Hua Lin Tan Tui PM, was a somewhat compact system with relatively few forms. How did so many Wah Lum forms come into being? What is the actual "core" of the Wah Lum system? How much Mantis is in Wah Lum Mantis?

LKL

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Do a search for 'Wah Lum' and you'll find answers to those questions. I've commented on this subject a few times.

Basically I believe the core forms are at the highest levels of Grandmaster Chan Pui's Wah Lum. There are forms with the same name as found in other branches but completely different moves (Fan Che, Little Fan Che). Then there are forms that are variations of the ones found in other branches but the name has changed (Big Mantis/Bung Bo, ?/Luanjie). It can get confusing.

I don't know the origin of the lower level forms but I do know he's been gathering new ones from his sihings on his trips to China over the years. He also has some manuscripts which can also be the source for some of the forms he's added to the system. Word has it that Chan Wan Ching created the numbered forms when he took over after Lee Kwan Shan died.

I have yet to see Wah Lum's Tong Long Chut Dong, Swallow or it's version of Luanjie (WL name unknown to me).

How much Mantis is in it I don't know yet. It's all integrated so it's hard to tell. I'm beginning to think there's more than some people think.

[yu shan]

Plenty has been said here on this topic. I am waiting on a list to be sent to me. This list apparently names the 10 or 12 core forms. I had the understanding that Chan Wan Ching and Chan Pui both collaborated on the WL 1 thru 6 forms. All very nice sets. One of my Shifu`s was Sean Cochran. He told me (and 18 elders)more than once, that we would never learn the real Mantis. He also claimed time an again, that these 1 thru 6 forms were just training forms. But then, he also told me everything I had learned so far (level 6) was just training forms.This has danced around in my head for many years. F`n training forms!? What was meant by this? I personally can see plenty of Mantis in WL, maybe just presented differantly, but there none-the-less.

Master Chan has sihings in China? I`d like to hear more about these men and where they are. Are these sihings Wah Lum guys? Fascinating! I hear there is an elder here in the states, but this is hush hush stuff.

I think MC is like the rest of us, over the years he was continuing his studies also. It is all good!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Hey yu shan, don't foget to share. :D Please, please.

As far as I know they are older relatives (uncles and such). Since he was the youngest and last student of LKS it's safe to assume that there were plenty of sihings. Most have probably passed away by now so hopefully he picked up their knowledge before they left.

The Tiger Fork King we met used to keep the riffraff out of the school back in the day. I think he's 80+. Wish I spoke chinese to get some stories from that guy. Don't know how much Wah Lum he knows but he didn't look like he was planning on doing any of it any time soon.

I have no idea what Sean meant by training forms. What the hellio would a non-training form look like? Would that be a show form then? Guess I'd rather have training forms if that's the case.

[18elders]

Not sure if the people there are really his wah lum sihings?
MC wanted SC to stay at his family village to teach wah lum there. If they are his older wah lum sihings, why would he want SC to teach there?
As from what i remember, they only knew a few forms there.
I think the old guy was MC's fathers body guard.

[lamakwoklee]

LKS WL had 12 hand forms. If you know those 12 hand forms, you know the "real" WL. Find some one still living who knows the ones you weren't taught. Go to Hong Kong or Sha Cheng, and learn them. Didn't LKS teach for Chin Woo? Maybe they have a record of his curriculum. What he taught up to his death in 1948, is the real WL. No subsequent master can claim to know more about a system than its founder.

WL stylists have a similar problem to N. Eagle Claw stylists with two exceptions. One, Eagle Claw stylists have the advantage of a known, and well documented curriculum. No one can claim to know the "secret" forms. Two, there's more than one living GM. No one can claim to be sole inheritor of the system.

If you do find the core of WL, you should probably have the Cantonese source document it "Quan Pu" form.

P.S.

Could it be that in GM Chan's WL, "secret" forms have recently been devised for the eventual inheritors of "his" lineage? For example, some schools of HK PM have secret/inheritor forms that didn't exist in LGY's lifetime.

[yu shan]

First of all, thank you for this insightful thread. Although Wah Lum is not my interest anymore, I have a clandestine love affair with it`s sketchy history. Mostly to help others understand.

Should research go towards Chin Woo? Will a "Quan Pu" ever be discovered?

This list I mentioned, looks like I will not see. Promises to secrecy and the fact that I was going to let the cat out of the bag. My source is not going to give the info. What is wrong with knowing the 12 core forms of Wah Lum? Tell us what will be hurt by this?

LKL, I know what you mean about "his" lineage. Looking forward to anything else you can give us. Thank you!

[sayloc]

yushan

Does your source know if the 12 core forms are still taught in his system?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Obviously, since I'm still in the system, I'm interested in any information regarding Wah Lum. If anyone has something to share that they don't wish to be made public I can be contacted at hualinmantis@yahoo.com.

"If you know those 12 hand forms, you know the "real" WL."
True, but if you don't know them could you still know the real WL? A good topic for a new thread maybe. Did LKS actually create those 12 forms or just added them? Too many questions.

The techniques make the style, not the forms. Forms are part of a system. Knowing the techniques/applications you can create forms. I think if you know the tech/app you know the style but to know the system you need to have the tech/app, forms, drills and training methods.

"What he taught up to his death in 1948, is the real WL."
That may be a true statement but it doesn't make the current teachings any less WL. Do you know Wong Long's original sets?

"No subsequent master can claim to know more about a system than its founder."
All the arts are refined and grow over time. Knowing more than the founder would not be unusual. That's like saying that a style becomes less and less after each generation. I don't believe that to be true.

18elders
I'm a bit puzzled by what I saw at WL China myself. I don't think MC's sihings were interested in teaching. The only person you ever hear about since Chan Wan Ching is Chan Pui. Since MC is known internationally and nobody has stepped up to contest his leadership, I'm guessing that everyone supports him (or at least just doesn't care).

[sayloc]

Hua lin

I looked at your masters web site and it says wl of U.S.A. Wouldnt that make it a different system or at least organization than what is in china?

I also noticed that the founder of the system lived during one of China's many turbulant times in history. It also stated that he was a body guard or escort of some kind and probably used his skills in a life or death situation frequently.

This could be why there may have been only 12 sets (if the person with this info is not misinformed). I think that someone living in that time would just want to focus on the things that would work for him in combat because he used it in a real life situation. He probably did not care to have 120 forms or what lineage, he just cared that what he did would save his a$$.

I have noticed from your previous posts that your system does not have a lot of the ling side to sets. Do you think that this could be because the founder used more weapons in his trade than fist fighting? This is easy to determine. Does your system have extensive weapons training? If it does it may have more two person weapons sets than open hand because that is what the founder used. That is not stating that it is not an effective fist fighting system also. I am sure it is. It may be similar to the way our modern day soldiers focus more on marksmanship and tactics than on open hand self defense.

As for the sihings in China. They are probably more concerned with where there next meal is coming from more than thier bung bo.

If they had more time for kung fu they may even be able to answer your questions on the forum.

Have a good day

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Wah Lum of China has been kept alive through the effort of Chan Wan Ching's sister. The school is still there and the headquarters moved back from Hong Kong 6 or 7 years ago. It does not appear to be growing at all (although I haven't been there in awhile). It's very small compared to WL USA. Master Chan Pui is responsible for making Wah Lum what it is today.

Due to Lee Kwan Shan's background I suspect he wasn't a 'forms guy'. I think he was more application oriented (unless he liked to withold info). This is why I question the need for the original forms. I would really like to have them but if all the material is in the current forms it doesn't really matter. The question is whether all the material is in there and how much is 'extra'. It's been said that everything is in the WL Soft Form. This form has 6 parts and I don't know of anyone that knows more than 3 or 4 parts. I only have part 2 but was told that part 1 is very basic.

Wah Lum may be missing the ling side because LKS never created any. Who knows. I prefer a smaller number of sets plus the ling side (although I'll settle for just a smaller core).

Unfortunately I ddon't speak the lingo so I won't be getting any info directly from China any time soon. And I don't think his sihings hang out on the Internet. :D

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

BTW, Lee Kwan Shan was basically a swordsman. He was known for his Double Broadsword skills. He kept them strapped to his back at all times (except when using them of course). I suspect his hand skills were secondary considering his line of work.

He also smoked opium and had some wicked pipe skills as well. Those skills were probably translated into the Fatal Flute set. It's one thing to carry a steel flute around but I can't imagine a cop believing that the opium pipe in my car is a kung fu training tool. :D

lamakwoklee
You mention 12 original hand forms. Do you have any specific information concerning these? I ask because others have mentioned 10 or 12 forms, not neccessarily hand forms. I would think that his 10 or 12 forms would include hand and weapons.

[sayloc]

Wouldnt it be funny if it turned out to be the 10 or twelve roads of tan tui?

[Tainan Mantis]

You want the names of the 12?
I have that, it is certanly not a secret.

The person who gave me the list(don't ask) is familiar with different branches of PM.
He said that his way of doing these WL forms is very similar to Taji PM of Zhao Zhuxi.

Interesting to note that there is a good bit of overlap between WL core forms and Taiji PM(Mantis108 Shifu).

[sayloc]

I would be interested in a list. I like the history and comparison of two systems. I am just beginnning to learn the history of mantis. Seems to be alot there.

Have a good day

[mantis108]

I believe that Wah Lum might be related to Meihwa Shuai Shou of Bao Guangying. There is a branch of his student in Guangzhou province still. He seemed to have left 5 manuscripts behind. They might prove useful in finding the root of Wah Lum. I somewhat agreed with Hualin that Tanglang in the beginning needed not to be a form based system. As for creating forms, it is true that anyone can create or even alter one with just some experiences in Kung Fu. The problem is that how would it fit into the system without being like a thorn that sticks out?

Mantis108

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Hmm, it seems I forgot that I had that list already. Way too many disorganized notes. Thanks TM.

1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
2.lan jeet -lan jie
3.baht zhao -ba zhou
4.tam toy -tan tuei
5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA little mantis
7.dai fan che -da fan che
8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy -yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
9.yee lo""""""""""""""""""""""second route""""""""""""""""""
10.saam lo""""""""""""""""""""""third route""""""""""""""""""""
11.yau ling kuen
12.yin ji chuen lum

Of the 12 the WL curriculum (from the handbook) lists:
Big Mantis/Bung Bo
Tam Tui
Little Mantis/Tieh Men Suan
Fan Che
Swallow/Yin Ji Chuen Lum

The rest must have different names.
Lin Wan Jurng (Continous Palms) could be Buddha Palm.

Some of the ones I'm unfamiliar with are:
Six Corners
Eighteen Kicks (possibley Continous Tan Tui?)
Eighteen Locking Hands
So Lo Sow

Too bad none of the more knowledgable WL Sifu's are here to shed some light on these sets.

[yu shan]

Very interesting. A few questions, do you know anyone who has learned this 18 Kicks form? I know you are a WL Shifu and you post here, is this frowned apone with your organization? I`ve wondered why WL Shifu`s don`t post here.

I saw Yao Li do the Swallow form at a tournament at the Bay Front Center in St. Pete in the 70`s. MC brought a troupe down to compete... they blew everyone away. I know it was "the Swallow form" because I asked him.

[sayloc]

hua lin

Cant you just ask your master about the history of the forms or which form is which?

Have a good day

[sayloc]

Yushan

Is this swallow form you are talking the same forr as
Swallow rush the forest boxong from 7*?

Thanks

[yu shan]

All I remember is "swallow takes to the..."

I`m very sure HLL has drilled his Shifu with every question imaginable. From my history with MC and WL, few questions were answered... I did get Master Chan`s flavor on some forms. But mostly, I thank Shifu Art D`Agostino for my movement.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Unfortunately I don't see MC too often and he's usually busy when I'm there. Drilling is the wrong approach. He answers a few questions here and there but don't expect an interview. I'll get the full name of the Swallow set next time I have a chance.

Wah Lum sets are divided between Tan Tui sets and Temple sets. Most of them seem to be so intermixed that I don't have the expertise to seperate the individual moves. It's unknown which sets were taught to LKS, created by LKS, or created later (with the exception of the numbered sets I guess).

Buddha Palm may be too southern to be Continuous Palms. Fourth Form is built off of Mei Hua Quan yet Mei Hua Quan is not in the list of LKS forms.

[lamakwoklee]

HLL,

I think you're getting mixed up. Didn't I read on another post that GM Chan Wan Ching created WL Fist Forms 1 through 6, perhaps with the assistance of his junior brother Chan Pui.

I want to structure my thoughts before I post more.

LKL

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Not mixed up at all, just wasn't clear enough in my post I guess.

There are 3 sources for WL forms:
1. Taught to LKS
2. Created by LKS
3. Introduced by others after LKS (created later)

The numbered sets seem to fall under #3 although I haven't verified this myself.

Just a reminder. Anything I post is my own opinion based on my experiences and observations. I do not officially represent Master Chan or the Wah Lum Temple on these matters.

[lamakwoklee]

Hi,

I gathered from a magazine interview given by Mimi Chan that no one unrelated to the family by blood would ever represent GM Chan or the WL Temple on these matters. Isn't that part of the problem? You can be a good friend. You can be a loyal student. You can invest years of study, and thousands of dollars. You can even be Chinese, yet still never learn more than a fraction of the "real" WL. In fact I've read that some masters create new forms for their "open door" students, while they practice Pai An with their "closed door" INHERITORS.

In the perfect world, GM Chan Poi would go to a GM Chiu Chuk
Kai "Top 12" Disciple system. I don't know GM Chan, but taking into account the number of ex-WL'ers who were either forced out, or left in frustration, I doubt he'll do that. I suspect he views the WL Temple, and the true "core" of the style as passed from LKS, as his families private inheritance, and continued means of livelihood.

I suggest that several WL Sifu, and advanced students get together, pool knowledge, and show what you know. It shouldn't be hard since many of you live in the same area. Also I've read that the WL of 2004, isn't the WL of 1984, or even of 1994. This is only my opinion, but you all should try to stop the rot, and halt the deterioration, and dilution of WL. Even if you don't agree with anything else I've written here, I would urge you to reject the attitude of false scarcity, and pointless secrecy that's held many of you back in your pursuit of the style you love.

LKL

[sayloc]

lamakwoklee

I enjoy reading your posts. You make some good points. I have mixed feelings when I hear people speak about or see the posts about the secret forms or techniques of any particular style.

From what I can see most mantis styles teach 8 or 9 basic punching techniques, 8 or so basic stances and about the same amount of basic kicking techniques. Most legitimate schools also teach proper breathing and how to move as their system teaches. Many also teach the application whether from form, two person sets or basic self defense.

This all starts on the first day a student walks into my school. Many of these are introduced within the first few months and definitly within the first year. How well they understand depends on each individual student. They may not care, it is up to them.

I feel that these fundamental skills are the real secret to praying mantis kung fu. Just because they are taught from the beginning does not mean they are not the most valuble. These are the real jewels. I think most people maybe even some of the masters forget this simple fact.

If you are in a system for more than 10 years I kind of doubt that a new form is going to be a life changing experience for you. Who knows, maybe some of these secret forms are to difficult for the average person. I do think it is a waste of time worrying about what you may never get or may not even exist.

I think it is a lack of maturity for someone to make statement that there are secret things that no one will ever learn. Then it is not a secret anymore.

I have certain things that I may not share with students but why would I tell them? Why would I want to hurt a dedicated student? If I dont want to teach some thing I just never let anyone know I have it. These things may not be some high level kung fu technique but I may have gotten it from a close friend or master and I may choose to keep it for those who are close to me. I would never hold some thing back that would be critical to a students training.


I myself try to learn other things from other teachers or systems. There is alot out there to learn and to think it is ALL in one system may be a mistake. Even if I never learn any earth shattering techniques from these other systems I was able to meet new people and have some good experiences.

Life is just to short. Focus on the positive.

[yu shan]

I`ve often thought about those forced out and the ones who left in frustration. To be honest, the men that were kicked out... the reasons were minuscule. And I`m sure you can understand leaving in frustration, probably numerous reasons. But like myself, I learned alot from my training in WL. It took me to the foothills of the mountain. I have to agree that WL has evolved. But to the lesser degree. I`ve seen how forms were done in the old days, and how they are done now. They use to be more complex, now they seem more Wu Shu. JMO

Yes, I have material that I have not taught yet... what little I know. But like what has been said here... these wonderful things taught to us are like precious jewels. I appreciate what has been shared with me and it is my obligation to pass on these treasures. One of the positives about Pong Lai, the openess to meeting and training with others. Life is short, I have friends to be made. And my Kung Fu brothers are my closest friends. Train hard!

[lamakwoklee]

Hi,

My only point here is that the strength of Praying Mantis is that everyone knows what should be there. Add or subtract a Beng Bu, a Lan Jie, a Ba Zhou, and 1 to 7 Routines of Zhai Yao. That's minimum.

Of course I know the real key is in the Pai An. Of course I know there are variations with Plum Blossom Routes added, and Long Fist forms added. Still we all know what should be there, even allowing for a lineages natural development. Still we all know what it should look like, even allowing for a lineages variations of "flavor".

If you're an advanced student, or even an instructor, and haven't ever seen your systems version of Lan Jie, let alone any Zhai Yao, it's time to start asking the hard questions. I'm not writing that you should leave a school, or abandon friendships. I'm only suggesting you expand your training options. Don't rely on only one source for training.

I'll be specific. If you're an advanced student, or an instructor, get together and trade information. Piece together what you know. Try to get back to the non- "wu shu'ey" version of the system. Also, if you don't speak Cantonese learn it, or make a friend of someone who does. What's wrong with dusting off your passport and going to Guangzhou for a week or two? It doesn't make sense for most, but if you're an instructor it's worth your while. Pool your resources, and don't let false scarcity hold you hostage.

LKL

[Shaolin Dude]

how does the 4th form start out?

[18elders]

starts just like plum flower, is the exact same form as plum flower except for a few moves at the end. Can't figure that one out.

In the little red book that master chan let TH put together that contains lectures from MC. MC stated that wah lum can be traced back to wong long. If this is true, why does it dead end at chin yeung?
I will go through the book again to find out what page it is.

I think the best thing would be for a wah lum sifu to sit down and ask MC these questions. The reason that nobody knows is he is not very forthcoming with information. I think a master would want his students to know the lineage and history of their system.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

lamakwoklee
"In the perfect world, GM Chan Poi would go to a GM Chiu Chuk
Kai "Top 12" Disciple system."

Master Chan already did that. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, all but one (I think) left. Not very dedicated disciples. Maybe he didn't choose very well but I guess they all disappointed him. I believe this is why he has the attitude you see today.

The opportunity to be a disciple was gone long before I got there and I don't believe there are 'closed door' students, family or otherwise. That's not to say that the 2 remaining family members still in the system aren't getting any extra training or knowledge.

"I suggest that several WL Sifu, and advanced students get together, pool knowledge, and show what you know."

I don't know how much of this goes on but my impression is that the same attitude prevails. Being a 'young' sifu I don't have anything to offer in exchange for learning something from a senior sifu. I know some of them do get together and go over stuff but I haven't had any direct involvement myself.

After passing the sifu test and before I opened the school I had planned on travelling around to all the schools exchanging info and sharing what I learned in the process. Either that or organize a sifu get together twice a year for the purpose of exchanging information. Unfortunately the school drained my resources and I don't think I have enough pull to get anyone to attend a get together. The organization is very Temple centric and anything not organized by them would probably get little response.

With so many 'old time' students gone from the organization I doubt any of them would be willing to share anything they know. Yu shan and 18elders are probably sitting on some useful info but I don't think they have any interest in passing it on to anyone.

[lamakwoklee]

Hi all,

Let me make this clear, if I haven't before. I don't wish to cast aspersions on the character of GM Chan, or the WL organization. By all accounts he's an admirable man. Some of his students, and former students have wrote about problems. I offer suggestions about how to get around those problems.

I've experienced the same problems in my tradition. Fortunately for me there are several sources of knowledge, and not just one. I only suggest that WL'ers, & XWL'ers try to abandon some of the more destructive ideas that have taken root in their branch of PM. I wish them all the luck, in getting to the genuine "core" of WL, and mastering the essence of the system.

LKL

[yu shan]

Geez man, useful info!? I just have stories to tell about the things I lived. Whether with Shifu Art D`Agostino, Shifu Sean Cochran or Master P Chan. I had great times with Wah Lum, but had to move on. I hope someday WL boxers will learn there true lineage. I personally would like to bridge the gap and let`s all try and piece the puzzle together. I feel this will happen someday. Oh yea, the traveling around to all the schools was a cool idea.

[Shaolin Dude]

Originally posted by 18elders
starts just like plum flower, is the exact same form as plum flower except for a few moves at the end. Can't figure that one out.

In the little red book that master chan let TH put together that contains lectures from MC. MC stated that wah lum can be traced back to wong long. If this is true, why does it dead end at chin yeung?
I will go through the book again to find out what page it is.

I think the best thing would be for a wah lum sifu to sit down and ask MC these questions. The reason that nobody knows is he is not very forthcoming with information. I think a master would want his students to know the lineage and history of their system.

yao just finished teaching choy li fut plum flower fist to a group of students. Our school will host a tournament this saturday and maybe we'll start something new next monday.

He seems to teach more traditional stuff now. soul chaser staff, mantis sai's, beng bu, plum flower, 2 handed straight sword.....

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Where did the CLF come from? I believe the CLF Plum Flower Fist is different than the WL plum Flower Fist.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't all the branches of NPM claim to trace back to Wong Long? If that is true then why do they dead end at 'nameless outlaw'? :)

[BeiTangLang]

....ummmm,....Because he was a nameless outlaw, unsociable & didn't tell anyone the name of his immediate teacher?? :)
Many people have asked the same question & rightfully so.
They are all still looking for the answer as far as I know.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

My point exactly. A missing link. WL has 2 missing links, everyone else has one. So why the accusations against WL all the time for things that are consistant with other styles and masters (no ling, witholding info, changes to system, link to Wong Long not fully documented, etc.). We're a hybrid system, why are we expected to set the standard for NPM?

[sayloc]

hua lin,

Maybe you are like the pretty girl in school, they pick on you because they reeaaaalllly like you!:)

I still say it is not a good idea to stay with just one system. You need to get out there and find out what other systems do and how they teach it. I havnt met many instructors who have not gone out and learned some different things even if it was behind their teachers back. I never burn bridges though.

That is another good thread. Who has trained behind their teachers back and didnt tell?

I would take the all of the attention about your system as a compliment. People must really like it to want all of the info.
Most of the x guys on here say they like it, it was just time to move on. Think about it most people cant stay with the same women for more than ten years even if they have children together, why would anyone set a higher standard fo kung fu
:)

[18elders]

I don't think you are expected to set any standard at all. But i think if you state in a book that you can trace your style back to wong long then you should be able to list the names.


Here is a guy who may give you some information.
http://www.lungyingjingjung.com/master.html

It says he is the:
City of Guonzhou Hua Lin Temples Chinese Skills Associates,
Honor Board Director


Make a trip to Sarasota and see if you can meet with him. May not give out information though.

Ask master chan about the guy in california, or contact kenny edwards. He met the man and saw his student do a form.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I've seen that website but I doubt he could provide anything useful that MC doesn't already know. The trip to China after the Guanzhou Wah Lum Temple was discovered and restored didn't produce much since none of the Temples records remained. If the records happen to turn up I'm sure MC will be one of the first to know.

So I take it nobody in Pong Lai has made any claims to a direct link to Wong Long in writing? :) Or do you have completely documented lineage?

sayloc
I've trained in other schools and other styles before WL, within WL, outside WL, etc. WL itself offers the chance to train in other styles and from other masters. Notice my avatar.

BTW, still with the same girl 30 years later (although some of the above applies :) ).

[18elders]

training outside your system;

Our shrfu encourages us to look at other styles or branches.
Why? because he is confident in his ability and system, he is not afraid of us leaving and he says go ahead an learn stuff from others, he has no problem with it.

[18elders]

Master shr's lineage is well documented, it is listed on a mountain in Qingdao(sorry i don't remember the name of it).

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Hmm, I was under the impression that all branches of NPM had a 'nameless outlaw' filling in for an unknown link back to Wong Long. Maybe you could provide that name to others who are missing it in their lineage.

Actually that name might also be one of Wah Lum's missing links and could possibly point the way to the other missing name.

Now if I can just find a mountainclimber in Qingdao ..... :D

[18elders]

I said his lineage is well documented, i didn't say i knew the name of the nameless dude.

[isol8d]

Lee Kwan Shan only studied Mantis for 10 years, right? How does this compare to other founders of mantis styles?

[lamakwoklee]

Many of the well known sifu learned mantis in 7 to 10 years.
Judging from the number of enemies LKS is reputed to have
killed in combat, I think he learned what he needed to learn.

[Shaolin Dude]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Where did the CLF come from? I believe the CLF Plum Flower Fist is different than the WL plum Flower Fist.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't all the branches of NPM claim to trace back to Wong Long? If that is true then why do they dead end at 'nameless outlaw'? :)

I have no clue. in the wah lum handbook under advanced forms, there's a plum flower fist. Did yao ever learn clf from nelson chan?

[lamakwoklee]

Hi,

My original thought was that if a WL'er could identify, and learn what LKS taught, he could know the "real" WL. Subtract the post-1980 additions. Subtract the post-1948 additions, and you'd have the "essence". That was my thesis. Is it correct, or is it flawed? If
it's flawed. How is it flawed?

LKL

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

On the surface it makes sense but what you might not know is that not everyone learned the same. I don't think there was a 'core' that he taught to everyone. It's my understanding that Wah Lum fragmented somewhat because of teaching that way and MC has attempted to gather and organize it all.

I would also guess that what he taught early on may have been different than what he taught later. Since he created the style it may have undergone some changes and refinement over the years.

The question I would ask (possibly nobody knows the answer) would be which sets did LKS create and which ones were passed on as he learned them?

The fact that he created a unique system (based on Tan Tui and Tanglang) and not just another branch of Tanglang has caused a lot of accusations to be thrown around. Someday maybe everyone's questions will be answered but until then just accept it for what it is, a professional fighter's interpretation of the top fighting skills of his day.