Thai Boxing Seminar Notes

[YongChun]

Today I invited the Thai boxing teacher, who one of our students cross trains with, to give the rest of us a short seminar on his art. The teacher was a Korean Thai boxing teacher who learned from a Thai fighting teacher. His teacher’s teacher was Mas Oyama’s bodyguard. The Korean Thai boxing teacher was a 4th degree blackbelt in Hapkido and as well studied many years of Taekwondo. He was also very experienced in street combat.

Overall it was a very excellent seminar and I think it would benefit anyone to do something like that whether they like Thai boxing or not.

To start with he showed four major weapons of Thai boxing which are the straight punch, the round kick to the leg, to the elbow area and to the head, the knee and the elbow. There was also sort of a push kick.

Someone volunteered to hold some heavy-duty thick Thai pads so that the force could be demonstrated for each of these maneuvers. The person holding said every single strike no matter what kind was extremely explosive and stronger than anything he felt before from any other visiting expert. The teacher was not very big and his teacher was even smaller he said. For the round kick he showed a short clip of one test where he had to break two baseball bats with a roundhouse kick with several people holding the bats steady. With that kind of force this student found it very difficult to hold the pads without them slamming into his face each time.

The teacher compared the Thai kicks with Taekwondo and Hapkido kicks and there was quite a difference in mechanics and power output. The Korean army basically uses Hapkido but the elite group is also versed in Thai boxing he said.

He said the normal guarding position employed by many classical arts is a bit dangerous because of the exposure when fighting against the Thais. He said these positions come from the classical arts, which were for the most part designed around fighting multiple opponents. He said in Asia typical fighting usually involved five to ten gang members against one and so the fighting tactics, methods and positions are not the same as fighting one on one against a highly skilled Thai boxer.

The teacher said the Thai elbow is very devastating and has caused many deaths so in competition is it not used that much among Thai fighters because their livelihood depends on fighting and there is sort of a code of honor to not damage your opponent too much or else his family will starve. That’s not to say it isn’t used when the circumstances are right.

This teacher said in Korea mostly the young high school students take up Thai boxing because they like to fight. He said within six months these people are very good fighters. After that some turn professional. He said there were two streams for learning Thai boxing: one stream was for the regular ring fighters and the other was for the teachers who didn’t fight so much. He said Mas Oyama had a few experiences with the Thais, getting beaten twice but later winning two times against the Thais. His experience influenced his Karate teaching approach.
He also showed very effective neck controls and clamps that they use to knee you to pieces while at the same time applying a very sharp pressure to the neck as if the neck were clamped in between two dull knives.

The teacher said the shinbone was one of the strongest bones in the body. The Thais consider it like using a heavy steel pipe to whack someone with. The fist was likened to a hammer, the elbow to a knife and the knee to a spear.

The footwork was very mobile working off the balls of the feet. Every strike had the whole body weight behind it yet everything was very fast as well. When he teaches in Korea you might train a week or two on the footwork or mobility alone and then spend a good solid month on the development of each of the weapons and then putting them into a sparring situation.

One of the ways the Thais use the elbow is similar to the bending version of the Wang Kiu or Pan Nam style of Wing Chun elbows at the start of the Bill Jee. The positions and mechanics were almost the same.

As in any art there were plenty of fine points in order to get the maximum force, speed and mobility out of one’s body. He said many classical arts are fixed with the teachers claiming no changes are necessary because the art is perfect already. But he said Thai boxing is constantly changing based on the experiences fighters have in the ring. So what he was taught for how the foot was positioned for a knee strike for example was refuted a few months later when they discovered other ways, which were more effective.

He said some things you just have to get by the feel. Some things maybe take six months but then your body can feel that you are doing the right thing because you can make it work with speed , power and proper timing.

The push kick was used sometimes when the Thais get a bit tired to create some distance. However for the most part Thais like to be very close. For distance fighting they have other arts such as the weapons arts (Krabi Krabong etc.)

This teacher said although Thai boxing is very effective, there still is a use for many of the classical arts to develop a person in many other ways. He still has a use for his Hapkido for example and he was also open to learning other kinds of arts. In Korea he also had a chance to see many Chinese martial artists some of which he said were pretty good too.

A good Thai boxer is very deceptive in his movements and very deceptive in the amount of force you figure a small guy can deliver. It’s easy to see how they can pick apart many classical fighters who don’t have too much fighting experience. For most street fights he figures a lot of classical arts are fine but against a top ring fighter it’s a different story.

I think even if you don’t like Thai fighting, having a few lessons from a good Thai teacher never hurts. I found it’s another way to appreciate Thai boxing and also shows what Wing Chun can be if it is trained properly.

[t_niehoff]

Thanks for the review. Anyone who spends time with a good muay thai fighter will only have the utmost respect for the art. And, the workouts are awesome!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yong Chun:

Excellent post. Very thorough. Muay Thai is clearly one of the top martial arts.

[sihing]

Good Post Ray, very informative.

Too bad the Thai practitioners from other forums are not as humble and respectful as some of us are. I was involved with a huge argument on another forum about the effectiveness of Muay Thai, and I eventually had 4 or 5 people on my A$$ about how super duper Muay Thai is compared to WC. I tried to tell them that is wasn't like I thought MT was lousy or ineffective but just that IMO WC was more effective, especially for average people. I gave specific reasons why I thought and ask for the same from them but no one could come up with anything, just that it has been proven in Pride and K1 that it is effective.

I believe the basic difference between the two arts, beside the way we do things, is the training methodology. The Thai people train harder most of the time than most WC people do, but there are exceptions. Plus in Thailand, Muay Thai is like basketball, baseball, or Football for some in the poor communities of North America, a way out of poverty, so they train obsessively to get something going for their families and themselves. You could say that Muay Thai is Yang for Wing Chun's Yin, different paths to the same destination.

If all you on here had a choice of only one, which one would you choose to train in, Muay Thai or Wing Chun? And Why?


James

[reneritchie]

Very nice Ray!

James - Takes two to argue. Next time, give them no purchase.

[chisauking]

Sihing asked: If all you on here had a choice of only one, which one would you choose to train in, Muay Thai or Wing Chun? And Why?


I would choose wing chun every time.

Although MT (Muay Thai) is very fast-effective and lethal, the price to pay for success, for me, just isn't worth it. No matter what I do in life, I apply myself 110% If I were to do that in MT, I know I would be seriously damaged in mid- or old-age. Also due to the hard nature of MT, the chance of a smaller opponent overcoming the size and strentgh advantage of a bigger opponent is substantially less than in wing chun.

To me, learning to defend one self and keeping healthy to old age in order to become one with the universe and peace with myself is the ultimate objective of learning any martial art. It rather defeats one's objective if the system you are learning inflicts more pain & damage than the possiblity of damage you may receive by attacks on the streets in your lifetime.

As I have said before, martial arts doesn't turn you into a superman; it simply gives you an egde in fighting. A micro-second could mean the differnce between winning or losing, life or death. People who thinks that the more you learn, the more effective you would be is deluding themselves. If you were to learn WC, BBJ, MT, Preying Mantis, etc., etc, what technique would you choose in your time of need? WC or MT? BBJ or WC? The thoughts process would be substantially longer than if you only had 1 choice, would not it? Take the example of a multiple choice question with 3 possibilities, and another with 30 possibilites. Which question would be quicker to answer, or in terms of selection of responce techniques, which one would be quicker to process? What I'm trying to say is, choosing one style is better than choosing 3 styles. Or, as Bruce Lee would say, one good punch is better than 1000 lousy punches.

More is not always better in combat.

[sihing]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Very nice Ray!

James - Takes two to argue. Next time, give them no purchase.

Then what is the need for a public forum? Just offered a opinion and stated it that way, Just a Opinion, but was called most names in the book and told I didn't know anything, then when I choose not to participate (take two to argue) I was chastised to reply with things said like "OH no WC answer to that argument now can you" or " so your silent now because you were proven wrong" type of things, lol. They were much more emotional about it than I.

Chisauking,
I agree with your feelings towards MT, a very lethal art but too much price to pay...


James

[anerlich]

If you were to learn WC, BBJ, MT, Preying Mantis, etc., etc, what technique would you choose in your time of need? WC or MT? BBJ or WC?

Obviously, you'd go for those deadly BBJ techniques, developed by the legendary Garcie family, every time. After all, they won in the UCF :p

Accumulation of techniques is not the way. However, avoiding a deeper understanding of what you do and what is out there by staying in the confines of your "style" (defined by who exactly?) and not checking out what other people are up to certainly is not the way either.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Why is it that a thread that begins with someone praising the finer points, training methods, and fighting effectiveness of Muay Thai has so quickly degenerated into an "us against them" debate (Wing Chun vs.Thai Boxing)?

Is it because of this...?

1) "Too bad the Thai practitioners from other forums are not as humble and respectful as some of us are." (James)

Really now? Who's humility? Yours?

Or perhaps the debate started over this...

"I was involved with a huge argument on another forum about the effectiveness of Muay Thai, and I eventually had 4 or 5 people on my A$$ about how super duper Muay Thai is compared to WC. I tried to tell them that is wasn't like I thought MT was lousy or ineffective but just that IMO WC was more effective, especially for average people..."

So you told them that, did you?...How did you expect them to react?

Or maybe the debate started with this one...

"I gave specific reasons why I thought and ask for the same from them but no one could come up with anything, just that it has been proven in Pride and K1 that it is effective...."

That's a nice exception they've got there...in real competitive fight events their style has done very well - because it's effective. How irrational of them to make such a case based upon fight results!

And then of course there's this...

"I believe the basic difference between the two arts, beside the way we do things, is the training methodology. The Thai people train harder most of the time than most WC people do..."

So walk the walk instead of just talkin' the talk.

And finally...

"If all you on here had a choice of only one, which one would you choose to train in, Muay Thai or Wing Chun?

Let's put it this way...after reading this thread, if I had to choose between you and the guy described on the opening post as my instructor...I'd be training in Muay Thai right now.

[sihing]

Well Vic, since I've seen you in action, I would recommend the same for any of your students too, take up MUAY THAI....

James

[Matrix]

Ray,

Last week you were complaining about some guy from another lineage giving a seminar to your students, and now your bringing in Thai boxers..........What's up with that?

[SAAMAG]

I'll give my honest opinion, I feel that MT gives me better conditioning and has given me much more powerful tools to fight with. What I mean by that is literal power. I don't have anything in my wing chun arsenal as powerful as my thai round kick for example, or my MT punches for that matter.

Wing chun has given me the mindset to "shut them down" and the confidence to take it straight to them vs moving back and defending and then attacking as most systems do. It's fine tuned me and given me the sensetivity and the economic motion. (although some argue that good economics is simply being efficient at what you do)

There's my two cents

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

I believe the basic difference between the two arts, beside the way we do things, is the training methodology. The Thai people train harder most of the time than most WC people do, but there are exceptions.

**Yes, muay thai's objective is to train folks so they become good fighters; a great many in WCK are training with some other objective in mind (perhaps chisauking's "to become one with the universe and peace with myself"-- the ultimate nonfighter view of MAs; why not just take up yoga instead?).

Too bad the Thai practitioners from other forums are not as humble and respectful as some of us are. I was involved with a huge argument on another forum about the effectiveness of Muay Thai, and I eventually had 4 or 5 people on my A$$ about how super duper Muay Thai is compared to WC. I tried to tell them that is wasn't like I thought MT was lousy or ineffective but just that IMO WC was more effective, especially for average people.

**Probably because they were interested in evidence, not theory. It's obvious what training in MT can achieve (the evidence is before our eyes), and it's obvious what most people training in WCK do achieve (no real results). And you're surprised folks don't accept your *arguments* (theoretical ramblings on why you think WCK is sooo good)? ;) You can come up with 10,000 reasons why you think WCK is "better" than MT but the proof is in the pudding. What you mean by "average people" are folks that don't want to do the work necessary to significantly improve their fighting skills but want to believe they have good fighting skills.

-----------

chisauking,

Your post is the typical mindless propaganda that "internal martial artisits", that is, nonmartial artists, love to spread -- silly dribble composed of false assumptions, unproven claims, etc. that they use to convince themselves and others of their superiority (it basically comes down to "we're smarter than those guys"). You are, in a phrase, completely clueless, and your only hope for salvation is to actually test some of your beloved theories. Of course, that will never happen since it will mean that you will "not be one with the universe"!

FWIW, I've met some old-timers in MT, they still seemed to move very well . . . much better than our old (even young) WCK masters that couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag. And a well-trained fighter, regardless of their style, can defeat an untrained or lesser trained larger opponent. St. Bruce, who you quote reverantly, actually trained in more than one style (which, I guess, refutes your "choosing one style is better than choosing 3 styles"). Clueless. But at least you're one with the universe.

-------------------


Victor asks:

Why is it that a thread that begins with someone praising the finer points, training methods, and fighting effectiveness of Muay Thai has so quickly degenerated into an "us against them" debate (Wing Chun vs.Thai Boxing)?

**What I find interesting is how people won't learn from MT's example -- about how they must train to achieve results (and how anyone that wants to develop good fighting skills trains). Instead, they rely on all kinds of defense-mechanisms, including magical thinking, to assure themselves that they don't need to train "like that" but can still attain the same results. Then having convinced themselves that they have some "better way" to train, they avoid at all costs any genuine tests of their "skill" since those will reveal their lack of accomplishment. And from their high perch, they look down at folks who are actually training to achieve results -- "those silly MT people, it so much easier to just do forms and chi sao".

[Redd]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
-- the ultimate nonfighter view of MAs; why not just take up yoga instead?).

Maybe to irritate people like you.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Good Post Ray, very informative.

Too bad the Thai practitioners from other forums are not as humble and respectful as some of us are. I was involved with a huge argument on another forum about the effectiveness of Muay Thai, and I eventually had 4 or 5 people on my A$$ about how super duper Muay Thai is compared to WC. I tried to tell them that is wasn't like I thought MT was lousy or ineffective but just that IMO WC was more effective, especially for average people. I gave specific reasons why I thought and ask for the same from them but no one could come up with anything, just that it has been proven in Pride and K1 that it is effective.

you talking about the thread on the main forum? I don't have anything against wc. I was questioning your opinions mainly, as you couldn't back them with anything. you've only trained one ma in your life, and think that that one is the best out there...


I believe the basic difference between the two arts, beside the way we do things, is the training methodology. The Thai people train harder most of the time than most WC people do, but there are exceptions.

bingo. when looking at the art as a whole, the exceptions don't matter. shouldn't we strive to make all wc on par with the exceptions? that would only help the art.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by chisauking
Although MT (Muay Thai) is very fast-effective and lethal, the price to pay for success, for me, just isn't worth it. No matter what I do in life, I apply myself 110% If I were to do that in MT, I know I would be seriously damaged in mid- or old-age.

If you compete for too long, yes. The same would happen if there were a competition WC circuit. You jave to be smArt enough to know when to stop competing.

Also due to the hard nature of MT, the chance of a smaller opponent overcoming the size and strentgh advantage of a bigger opponent is substantially less than in wing chun.

you'd be surprised how much power goes into elbow and knee strikes, and also how much a leg kick can hurt. It's possible for the smaller guy to win, but just as with anything else, he will have to be that much better than the bigger guy.

To me, learning to defend one self and keeping healthy to old age in order to become one with the universe and peace with myself is the ultimate objective of learning any martial art. It rather defeats one's objective if the system you are learning inflicts more pain & damage than the possiblity of damage you may receive by attacks on the streets in your lifetime.

that will vary from person to person. I personally don't care about being one with the universe through MA. I have church for any spiritual aspects of my life.

As I have said before, martial arts doesn't turn you into a superman; it simply gives you an egde in fighting.

agreed.

A micro-second could mean the differnce between winning or losing, life or death. People who thinks that the more you learn, the more effective you would be is deluding themselves. If you were to learn WC, BBJ, MT, Preying Mantis, etc., etc, what technique would you choose in your time of need? WC or MT? BBJ or WC? The thoughts process would be substantially longer than if you only had 1 choice, would not it?


actually, no, it wouldn't. you would use what you are comfortable with. I have trained in karate, longfist and jkd in the past. I currently train bjj, judo and thai boxing. When I am in the ring, I resort to what I am comfortable with. I mainly use thai boxing techniques, but I also use a hook kick pretty well. In judo, I don't differentiate between a judo and a bjj tactic - I just react. The principles are all the same anyway, just different means of using them.


Take the example of a multiple choice question with 3 possibilities, and another with 30 possibilites. Which question would be quicker to answer, or in terms of selection of responce techniques, which one would be quicker to process? What I'm trying to say is, choosing one style is better than choosing 3 styles. Or, as Bruce Lee would say, one good punch is better than 1000 lousy punches.

More is not always better in combat.


Now, apply this to tma. you learn iron palm, qigong, various kicks, punches, palms, knees, elbows, chin na, head butts, throwing, forms, weapons... how many of those will you master? how many will you be able to use with razor sharp precision at will? Will you ever use all of the techniques you learn? For example, I've never used a tiger claw in a fight or sparring. But yet, I still had to spend time training it. will I ever be a master of it? no, because I don't use it. Not only that, but training it takes away from time I could spend training techniques that I DO use...

Now, look someone who trains thai boxing and judo... he is WAY more focused in his training in terms of which techniques he learns. While the tma guy is working all of that other stuff, the thai boxer is training the same core strikes.

[SevenStar]

By the way, awesome post, yongchun.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
I tried to tell them that is wasn't like I thought MT was lousy or ineffective but just that IMO WC was more effective, especially for average people. I gave specific reasons why I thought ... What are the specific reasons you find WC to be more effective for the average person?

[YongChun]

For one on one fighting, Thai boxing might be more effective and easier to learn. This guy that taught the seminar showed the main weapons of punch, roundkick, straight kick, elbow and knee and how to develop each weapon for maximum force delivery, speed and non telegraphic action. Then it's put into a fighting mix. In six months he said most of the high school kids who take it up can fight. He has applied it in the ring and on the street. In one street fight a single punch shattered the guys jaw, nose and teeth. It's gross but he said it sounded like dry wood breaking and luckily the guy didn't die.

The Latosa Escrima someone showed me (but didn't teach me) also had a similar idea of developing a few very powerful strikes and four block (box blocking) to deal with those strikes. Then it was put into a sparring mix. This guy came number two in Germany one year in stick fighting competition. I think I knew a lot more things than him but couldn't handle anything of his. Really having core skills gets you pretty far.

We have this Olympic calibre Judo guy who doesn't know that much Wing Chun but his core Judo skills have been transported over to Wing Chun such that he has a very rooted stance, very sensitive hands which sort of smother everything and a couple of strikes. With that he does just fine against people with many more years in Wing Chun. No one can sweep him off his feet and he can sweep most people off their feet. He is a thin but very strong guy who also does Yoga on the side.

Perphaps Wing Chun is the same where a small subset can be trained to be very effective. For Karate tournaments one guy was pretty succesful with 7 months of Wing Chun. However he already had an aggressive fighting mentality so one can't always just look at the length of time in an art or give total credit to the art.

From what I have seen from the Korean Thai teacher six months does more than I have seen in many arts including quickly taught Wing Chun.

Once someone is a proficient fighter in their art then it's not easy to say what's better anymore since some Wing Chun people have beaten the Thais and so have some SanDa fighters. Perhaps they cheated by becoming very familiar with the Thai training methods first.

When I see a lot of Wing Chun curriculums, they seem overly complex to me. Some schools have millions of drills and others have very few if any drills. The large programs I think are not necessary for effective fighting. The Hong Kong fighters learned everything in two years or less. Some modern teaching methods drag it out to 15 years or more. I don't know if this produces better fighters? Maybe not because at a certain age a fighter is in his prime. If you add an extra ten or 12 years to that then your are no longer in your physical prime.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by YongChun
Once someone is a proficient fighter in their art then it's not easy to say what's better anymore since some Wing Chun people have beaten the Thais and so have some SanDa fighters. Perhaps they cheated by becoming very familiar with the Thai training methods first.


In that case, you've done a fair bit of cheating yourself by having the seminar. :)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Edmund
In that case, you've done a fair bit of cheating yourself by having the seminar. :)

Ok, I'm guilty spying on them.

Ray

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
What are the specific reasons you find WC to be more effective for the average person?

1) Easy to learn
2) Simplicity in Technique and Concept
3) Economy of Motion, efficiency in everything one learns
4) Practical fighting Philosophy based on reality based situations
5) Effective fighting Techniques that can be used by the able bodied and enabled bodied. Wing Chun transcends the limitations of each individual
6) Wing Chun can work for everyone equally
7) Relies more on skill attributes(timing, perception/sensitivity abilities, distance control) rather than physical attributes like speed, strength or stamina (although these things are needed to perform the movements WC does not rely on them to the same high degree as MT, everyone needs these things, but some arts rely on them more)

Now please everyone, feel free to pick apart each and every one of these listed reasons, as I know you will do diligently from previous posts of Wing Chun advantages on a Wing Chun forum, lol.


James

[SevenStar]

All of those things are present in muay thai. In addition, if you think they don't use timing, distance or sensitivity, you know nothing about thai boxing...

for number 4, what are these reality based situations? whose experiences are they based upon?

[Edmund]

Originally posted by YongChun
Ok, I'm guilty spying on them.

Ray

:) Not really spying if you just ask them to give you a seminar!

It's funny what people have picked up and commented on from your notes.

Most of the notes were about technique and fighting theory and had nothing to do with how tough or conditioned they are. Yet a lot of people are discussing conditioning as if that was the main part of Muay Thai.

Conditioning is only one aspect, and it's OTHER things like when to use a particular technique, how to defend and hold a guarding position, the mechanics of each strike, how they practice the SKILLS etc. that also make Muay Thai effective. This is the art aspect that can be taught to anybody, not just fit young people.

"Pride and K1" (brought up by sihing) are not particularly fantastic examples of Muay Thai. Because of the rules and the average size and background of the fighters, it's not quite the same style as what you see in Thailand.

[kj]

Originally posted by SevenStar
All of those things are present in muay thai. In addition, if you think they don't use timing, distance or sensitivity, you know nothing about thai boxing...

Re points 5 - 7. Thai Boxing would not work equally well for me. I don't have the orthopedic structure to tolerate that kind of training.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Vajramusti]

We generally dont break through the same old same old posts-just restate them. So this too is same old WC POV. I dont feel the slightest need to justify wing chun to non wing chunners on a wing on what is labelled as a wing chun list. Comments in brackets follow:
---------------------------------------
Originally posted by SevenStar
All of those things are present in muay thai. In addition, if you think they don't use timing, distance or sensitivity, you know nothing about thai boxing...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

((Of course MT folks use distancing, timing and sensitivity- most skilled activity uses those qualities. But those qualities are function and art specific in the details. Sensitivity to what? What kinds of timing? Distance relative to what? Good wing chun develops those things for wing chun strategy and tactics.))
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Re points 5 - 7. Thai Boxing would not work equally well for me. I don't have the orthopedic structure to tolerate that kind of training.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((One of the nice things about wing chun is it's versatility and adaptability...depending on body type, size, age, physical strengths and weaknesses. Paul Lam ( a student of Leung Shun)
was a pretty good fighter. Apart from Lee Sing he was one of the first to introduce wing chun in the UK. He had polio asa kid and had below average legs- but he got his rooting and mobility down enough and developed great and powerful wing chun hand usage in dealing with wing chun and non wing chun folks he encountered)).))

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by kj
Re points 5 - 7. Thai Boxing would not work equally well for me. I don't have the orthopedic structure to tolerate that kind of training.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

there is a guy in our class who has plantar's fasciitis (sp?) and he is able to train occasionally. He does bjj as well. bjj is MUCH easier on his feet, but does it anyway.

I have a naturally twisted spine - my right side is further forward than my left. You can't look at me and tell, but it shows on x ray.

we've got several women in the class, one of which has back probs, if I'm not mistaken.

On an interesting and related note, a CMA acquaintance of mine (yes, he trains WC) told me that he hasn't been able to train as much recently because he was getting old...his previous injuries from training are getting to him. The only MA he's done are longfist and WC, not counting the boxing he did when he ws 14.

Out of curiousity though, what condition do you have?

[Tydive]

Ray,

Nice write up.

From what you have seen what makes the MT strikes so much stronger than the WC ones (or any other styles for that matter)? Also, given that they hit harder do they lose anything in speed or control?

[kj]

Originally posted by SevenStar
there is a guy in our class who has plantar's fasciitis (sp?) and he is able to train occasionally. He does bjj as well. bjj is MUCH easier on his feet, but does it anyway.

I have a naturally twisted spine - my right side is further forward than my left. You can't look at me and tell, but it shows on x ray.

we've got several women in the class, one of which has back probs, if I'm not mistaken.

On an interesting and related note, a CMA acquaintance of mine (yes, he trains WC) told me that he hasn't been able to train as much recently because he was getting old...his previous injuries from training are getting to him. The only MA he's done are longfist and WC, not counting the boxing he did when he ws 14.

Out of curiousity though, what condition do you have?

Thanks for the anecdotes, Sevenstar. Those folks you described have my respect and kudos for working through and around their constraints, as do those who have the willingness and patience to work with them. I hope they can continue to make the right balances in order to both benefit from and enjoy their work for years to come.

Not to belabor my personal challenges, and distinctly not seeking therapy here; rather to offer a good faith answer to your good faith question. Perhaps this may also help to illustrate that there are sometimes legitimate physical constraints which, combined with other reasons, support the case for choice and variety in training methods.

In my particular case, I have a number of genetic and developmental "anomalies"(e.g., ligament laxity, os acromiale, and Spondylolisthesis), some of which have contributed to other problems and symptoms including but not exclusive to: chronic bursitis of the shoulders, excessive movement in the iliosacral joint , sciatica, tendonitis, and yes, plantar faciitis. I also have genetic propensity for osteoarthritis in various joints; the worst of which is my knees which are presently on the verge of requiring replacement in keeping with both my maternal and paternal ascendants. I have encountered many of these symptoms and problems throughout my adult life, they just tend to worsen over time; some of them have been problematic since early childhood, most notably the knee problems. I was fortunate to have had a surgical procedure successfully performed to correct a very painful case of hallux rigidus, which dramatically improved my posture, gait and stance. I have also had multiple arthroscopies of the knees including partial meniscectomies and general "cleaning" which, along with a variety of other therapies have helped keep me reasonably functional to this point.

Oh yeah, I have carpal tunnel syndrome and TMJ too, LOL.

Despite all of this, I am reasonably functional. I just "break" rather easily if not judicious in my work. :( But we all have some achilles heel. Lest my potential enemies presume too much, none of this means I won't kick someone good if I sincerely need to! ;) Given that I must use care in "spending" what little remains of my knees (and other parts), for the time being at least, it just means I will be rather selective about whom to kick, and when. :D

I gave serious consideration to these and numerous other factors when I evaluated my martial arts options some years ago. It was no accident that I elected to give Wing Chun a try.

This may also help to explain in part why I often think to question many dogmatic assertions, assumptions and "shoulds."

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by kj
In my particular case, I have a number of genetic and developmental "anomalies"(e.g., ligament laxity... You would smoke in BJJ. Hyperflexible people give us normal range of motion people fits- it's hard to submit them, you can't pass their guards, and they are always getting your back and choking you out.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tydive

From what you have seen what makes the MT strikes so much stronger than the WC ones (or any other styles for that matter)? Also, given that they hit harder do they lose anything in speed or control?

wc uses a whip like energy for power generation, correct? muay thai is more like a baseball bat - it just plows through the target. Also, MT does alot of training geared toward building power - thai pad training and heavy bag training specifically. I don't see any major difference in speed, with the exception of chain punches, but IME, there's a tradeoff of power there. As far as control, only in the case of the roundhouse - if it misses, some people are taken completely around by the momentum. Soem are good enough to be able to stop in mid kick, and others will plant the foot before spinning completely around and follow with a side or back kick.

[Vajramusti]

7* asks:
wc uses a whip like energy for power generation, correct?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is one kind of energy- there are others. No comment on MT.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well I'll comment on Muay Thai power generation...

"Also, MT does alot of training geared toward building power - thai pad training and heavy bag training specifically." (Sevenstar)

Wing Chun folks should be doing similar things - and very frequently.

Pads/mitts/shields/heavy bags, etc.

And here's another one...I've taken some carpet underpadding material (it's about an inch thick) and wrapped it completely around my Wooden Dummy (with the exception of the arms and leg, of course)...and punch/palm strike/elbow/kick...the WD full power all the time.

Definitely helps turn the whip-like action into very powerful strikes.

[Tydive]

7*
muay thai is more like a baseball bat - it just plows through the target

Ummm... how? My understanding of a strike is that I end it at a specific point. Usually 2-4" inside the person. If you are going through the person then how do you avoid pushing the punch? How do you avoid ending up off balance at the end of a strike (ala baseball swing)?

[SAAMAG]

I think it's relative. I know some guys in MT that kick so hard that if there was nothing there to make contact with the kick would swing all the way around....

Then again there's weaklings like me that still "whip it". I don't like the kicks that go all the way around because then Im exposing my backside. And I don't like exposing my backside...unless it's like a practical joke or something. Wait....that's a different backside. Nevermind.

[SevenStar]

when punching, you target behind the person, not just into them. focusing behind can equate to pushing - that's something your coach should pick up on and correct - it's a technique flaw on the practitioner's part, as it being off balanced when you throw a strike. If your stance and balance are correct, you will not fall of balance when trying to punch through something. same with the kicks. It's not uncommon for the arc of a missed roundhouse to continue around. Some people are able to stop the strike mid kick if they miss. I've seen occasions where people spin all the way around and I've seen people who will plant that kicking foot before rotating completely and counter with either a side or back kick.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Then again there's weaklings like me that still "whip it". I don't like the kicks that go all the way around because then Im exposing my backside. And I don't like exposing my backside...unless it's like a practical joke or something. Wait....that's a different backside. Nevermind.


whoa...tmi... :D

[Tydive]

when punching, you target behind the person

Ok. That explains why so many fights that I watch look like pushing contests to me. I could see how that would change things quite a bit from how I do it. Not just the strikes but your set up distance and follow up options. I would hate to try to do that unless I was up on the balls of my feet.

[SevenStar]

boxers fight on the balls of the feet for mobility, not for depth with the strike. Like I said, pushing in the strike is possible, but that is the result of bad technique, generally leaving the arm extended for too long - typically from trying too hard to penetrate too much.

the heavy bag is a beautiful thing.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Tydive
Ok. That explains why so many fights that I watch look like pushing contests to me. You are watching Muay Thai fights that look like pushing contests?

[SevenStar]

I'm thinking he's referring to some mma stuff.