form work vs running

[WanderingMonk]

so, I am browsing a forum and some southeast asia cma guy wrote that when he fought in the tournament circuit, he used form work instead of running.

going through form work at full power and intent gives the same level of cardio-work.

nenver thought of that before. what is your view of advantage of running over hard form-work.

[SPJ]

Is this a thread about training?

Or strategy of fighting in the ring?

:confused:

[Dark Knight]

I run and I do Martial Arts.

Before I started running I sparred a couple times a day and had classes that were high in cardio.

After many years, one day I fought a kickboxer. He trained hard in cardio, hard on the bag, hard in sparring and ran. He out lasted me, I could barly keep my arms up. The fight lasted a long time, past my cardio level.

Since then I changed my workouts.

I run 4 times a week and bike twice a week, I lift three times aweek. (Before I run)

The harder you work out the better off you are going to be.

Everyone is different, there are people out there who can never run, dont do forms, just spar and win. They are the exception.

There are alternatives to running, its not for everyone, some bodies cannot take the pounding on the knees.

You get back what you put in. The more effort the better off you will be.

[SPJ]

If it is about training;

Depends on what you need;

Personally I like to swim, jump ropes etc.

Forms training may be started with several levels.

Do the moves right everytime.

In Tai Ji Lao Jia Yi Lu;

You want to do slowly and continuously to practice to be gentle (Ruo Ruan Gong).

The purpose is to practice understanding your own Jin in large circles and how to neutralize.

Lao Jia Er Lu;

You practice soft first and end hard. There are stops and go's.

Then you move on to push hands, staff and bag works with the moves in the forms.

One may practice the same move for 45 min. And then practice against the resistence (partner or bags or other props) for another 45 min.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by SPJ
Is this a thread about training?

Or strategy of fighting in the ring?

:confused:

conditioning.

[Vash]

You'd probably get better responses in the Kung Fu Training and Health forum.

[jun_erh]

does it matter? it's the same people :D

I would say that running will help you practice whatever form your doing better and longer. Believe me if you go to any sort of serious martial arts training, be it lions den or shaolin area school, there is plenty of running

[mickey]

Greetings,

I believe that form work can deliver the goods if done with intensity. One really has to have their fitness level up to par to do forms back to back that way (running and/or wind sprints, bag work, weight training, etc., would help get you to that point); when viewed from that standpoint, form work at high intensity was and is more like integrated conditioning: putting it all together. And I believe that is the way it should be.

The basic set of Tan Tui used to be trained like that.


mickey

[WinterPalm]

I would say that forms are the best.
When you learn a form, you are going through the movements and trying to prefect them, this is complented with self-defense drills and sparring, but one you can do the form with good technique, you slowly increase the speed so that you still maintain form but are working a lot harder.
For many people they do not have the time to run, swim, jump rope, bike ride and all the other stuff. That is why I believe that a complete martial art system will cover the cardiovascular aspect of fighting. If your art lacks this aspect, then it must have a reason to get around it and therefore, doesn't need it.

[FngSaiYuk]

My vote is that, although forms at high intensity is a good workout, weight training, running and impact conditioning are 'better' at improving your overall body condition.

I don't really have all the research on hand to direct anyone to, but the overall point is that if you want to hit harder, you do strength/power/speed excercises and pound into impact bags - if you want to increase your endurance you move your body non-stop for long periods of time. The vast majority of forms are NOT going to make you stronger the way strength/power/speed training can. If you have little strength to begin with, forms work will improve your strenght, but there's a point at which moving your own body weight is no longer enough, and there are excercises that are more focused at specifically developing strength/power/speed.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
For many people they do not have the time to run, swim, jump rope, bike ride and all the other stuff. That is why I believe that a complete martial art system will cover the cardiovascular aspect of fighting. If your art lacks this aspect, then it must have a reason to get around it and therefore, doesn't need it.

This would be a whole different perspective - the reason why a particular individual is training in a particular martial art. There ARE a good number of martial arts practitioners out there that really aren't into the whole fighting aspect - as contradictory as that may seem.

If you are NOT trying to MAXIMIZE your strength/power/speed/endurance/cardio development, then I'm sure forms and everything else you're doing in the martial art of your choice is 'good enough' for you.

[mickey]

FngSaiYuk,

I agree with what you say when it comes to strength, power, and speed. The initial question was not about those attributes, it was about cardio training: forms vs running. I do not believe one should neglect those other aspects simply because one is training forms with intensity.

mickey

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Everyone knows the first one to gas loses the fight. But I don't think that CMA intended fights to last very long. Long fights come from competition. Back in the day I suspect form work was intended to give you the short duration high intensity explosive power to end the fight quickly. The exception would be battlefield requirements. Maybe some of the historians around here can comment on that aspect. I would say each form would be an individual fight. Doing multiple forms back-to-back would simulate the battle.

Waiting for your opponent to tire and then take him out is probably a more recent methedology. Maybe someone will invent a turtle style where you drop into a fetal position and weather the attack until your opponent gasses. Then you get up and beat the crip out of him. Training could consist of iron back and iron outside-of-arms-and-legs so you could withstand the initial attack.
Oh yea, iron back-of-the-head too.
:cool:

[red5angel]

running is my favorite for of cardio work, but I can't think of any good reason why forms work, if it's done at a fast enough pace to count as cardio work, can't take the place of it.

[SPJ]

Qi gong is the cardio aspect of CMA.

Zhuang Gong and back to back forms or repetititon of the same forms also give you endurance.

Yes, all schools of CMA are designed to end fight quickly.

But if you fight with multiple opponents and there are more to come, to outrun your opponent is the best strategy.

To run and to dodge are MA related, too.



:D

[norther practitioner]

To run and to dodge are MA related, too.

And that is why, I deam dodgeball the best sport ever.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
going through form work at full power and intent gives the same level of cardio-work.

No, I don't think it does. an advanced level boxer / thai boxer will run about 5 miles 3-4 times per week. At what intensity and how many reps would you have to run through your forms to make it equivalent to 5 miles of running? Do you have any type of proof that states forms give the same level of work as running?

Also, forms are fairly anaerobic, so we are talking about two different types of training...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mickey
Greetings,

I believe that form work can deliver the goods if done with intensity. One really has to have their fitness level up to par to do forms back to back that way (running and/or wind sprints, bag work, weight training, etc., would help get you to that point); when viewed from that standpoint, form work at high intensity was and is more like integrated conditioning: putting it all together. And I believe that is the way it should be.


bagwork, padwork and sparring are integrated conditioning...

[SPJ]

Jin in circles are called Chan Si Jin or silk reeling.

Your directions of Jin change all the time in the circle.

You may think about vertical and horizontal circles in 2 planes.

You then think of 3 dimension as circles in a sphere and a ball.

The surface of a ball may deflect many directions of forces or Jin's.

Lao Jia Yi Lu is consisted of large frames or bigger movements or Da Jia.

You focus on the changes of directions of Jins in a circle or in a ball around you.

Your whole body is moving. You try to sense all the Jins around your whole body and limbs.

Huen Shen Si Jin.

[Tigrentera]

My opinion is that form work can provide the type of cardio you need for fighting provided that you do it in the right way....however, the same can be said about running.

Jogging, IMHO is worthless to fighting...just as "jogging" through your form is.

You should train how you expect to fight.

Fighting on the street is a largely anaerobic activity. Fights start and end quickly. You need speed, strength but not necessarily endurance.

Fighting in the ring is totally different. You need aerobic endurance but you also need to be able to do quick bursts of anaerobic activity.

(Just so I don't have to hear it....yes, training to fight in the ring can help you on the street. )

The key in any case is interval training/circuit training.

You keep a base level of cardio exertion punctuated by quick burst of high intensity exertion.

So when doing the form you would do it like this.

Do your form one time at medium/slow pace. The next time do the form as fast as you can.

Without taking a break start on your next form at a med/slow pace.

Keep this up until you are exhausted.

For running, you would want to do 1 min jog punctuated with 1 min of full out sprint.

At any rate, this kind of training is most useful to external styles. As SPJ pointed out internal training is quite different but that is because you are training the body to do different things.









;)

[SevenStar]

Once again, pad and bagwork do the same thing, while conditioning, and with the added benefit of resistance.

As far as fighting being largely anaerobic, you're correct. but you may have to run...

considering my regimen includes pad and bagwork already, I'd pick running over forms. For conditioning in general, even without the padwork, I'd pick running.

[David Jamieson]

I am willing to wager that there isn't a single professional fighter alive who does not run as part of his training regimen.

bag work is cardio for sure, provided it's done properly that is, tere is a lot of namby pamby bagwork out there that really isn't doing anything too. lol take a look next time you're at a gym that has bags. Take a look at what some peeps are doing for bagwork. :rolleyes:

the idea of steady and constant striking and footwork around the bag really escapes some people. lol

moving in, throw a couple of shots, move out, take a rest etc does not in my opinion constitute "bag work", get in there, hit hard, hit a lot, move, keep your hands up, move your feet and keep throwing em until your three minutes are up. take your 1 minute rest and rest, don't walk around, don't do something else, just rest you have another 3 minutes coming up and you're gonna need the NRG!

Running is a huge training method that develops the heart and lungs, the blood flow, etc etc. It cannot be overlooked as a method of conditioning and endurance. To do so means you will be in for a very big fuggin surprise when your dairy twist fist method don't work on the meathead coming at you and you will have to be in the thick for longer than the length of a 2 minute form.

Now, if you are fighting against a bunch of other people who only do forms as their cardio, then sure, you'll be fine. But unless you are ding form after form full blast, full speed, then you really aren't getting a lot of cardio.

I currently can complete all the forms I know in a row. It is a cardio workout for sure, but it is still not as intense as when I run 5 km (3.5miles for non metric folks) Sure I'm sweating and I need a little break after the whole and in between. Forms are better used in my opinion as what they are. a library of system techs. Once you got a form, break it down. Drill the techs on the bag, in the air and against an opponent.

But don't sell short the simple and beautiful method of simply running.

[Pork Chop]

I don't run, i hate it, it hurts structurally- not in that good, out of breath, muscles burning kind of way.

I'll do elliptical cross trainer (arms and legs) waaaay before I run.

High speed forms, with serious effort can be at least as good as high-intensity shadowboxing, and may be better for endurance from a sport-specific training than distance running.

A lot of fighters run; a lot don't.

Interval training will help a lot for being able to handle a round.
Distance running will help you hold out for a while without feeling lost in a big, deep ocean.

I don't think there's an abolute answer, but definitely experiment and find what works for you.

[Tigrentera]

But don't sell short the simple and beautiful method of simply running

In short, I think jogging sucks.

Because you have to do it for a long time and it is a high impact exercise you end up with repetitive use injuries .....like plantar fasciae injuries, knee and back injuries etc. Been there done that.

You'd be better off swimming, rowing, elliptical, stairmaster, form work, circuit training with weights....even hiking or fast walking.

Sprinting and jumproping are better because even though they are high impact they are worked over a shorter time frame.

Get out of the 70's folks with your "healthy" jogging, whole wheat bread, bean sprouts, yogurt and way too tight shorts.....
:D ;)

[David Jamieson]

um, running training has changed quite a lot from the 70's dude. lol

it ain't your dads style of jogging in other words.

and it's not exactly like you don't sustain injuries in MA training.
I know we all try to avoid injuries from training, but anyone who trains diligently and seriously knows for trueness that you can't miss all the buses out to hit you.

[jun_erh]

IN my opinon, running should replace your forms entirely. IF you want to live in reality. If you want to live in the introspective training sequence of a kung fu movie, then don't bother running. and don't take any challenges

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Tigrentera

Fighting on the street is a largely anaerobic activity. Fights start and end quickly. You need speed, strength but not necessarily endurance.


The discussion seems to have been about ring fights. They tend to go on a bit longer. ;)

[SPJ]

For people who are interested;

Here is a good link to some readings on Tai Ji practice and forms.

http://qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?-token.SearchID=Li%20Ya%20Xuan

[jun_erh]

tigrentra/ omar - but you need endurance to be prepared for a situation. If you get tired out walking a couple of blocks to your car it's gonna be pretty hard if theres an altercation there for some reason

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by jun_erh
tigrentra/ omar - but you need endurance to be prepared for a situation. If you get tired out walking a couple of blocks to your car it's gonna be pretty hard if theres an altercation there for some reason

True. But we're not talking about sedentary out of shape people vs. athletic people.

When talking about martial artists we're talking about people who are generally athletic but are looking for ways to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of there training.

Like we are

;).

Anyways, let me tell you guys an interesting story...you may have heard it before....I know SPJ will appreciate it.

It's about Chen Fa-Ke. One of the most well known exponents of Chen Taiji in modern times.

During his time he was asked to help officiate a local Lei Tai match between various kung fu factions (in Beijing I think?).

When setting up the rules they had to decide on how long the rounds would go. Other officials were throwing out times like 2 min, 5 min, 10 min, etc.

Chen Fa-Ke chimed in and said "3 seconds."

People looked at him like he was crazy.

One of the other officials (another martial artist, I think a wrestler) said " I don't believe it, how can you have a match in 3 seconds?"

Chen Fa-ke said "Let me show you."

He knocked the guy on his ass in under 3 seconds.

My point of sharing is that I think that originally TCMA training was designed with the idea of teaching you to fight in a quick and decisive way, not in an extended format.

So the training is going to be a bit different.

Not saying cardio training is worthless, just that it might not be as important to a street fighter as to a ring fighter.




:D :D

[mickey]

Greetings,

I agree with all of the various training methods mentioned. The question was whether forms done with intensity could offer the same benefit as running. I do not think that the other aspects of training should be ignored.

Form work, depending on the form, with intensity can offer a similar benefit. Now whether there can be a carry over from intense form work to running is something that I have never tried.

mickey

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by mickey
I agree with all of the various training methods mentioned. The question was whether forms done with intensity could offer the same benefit as running. I do not think that the other aspects of training should be ignored.

Form work, depending on the form, with intensity can offer a similar benefit. Now whether there can be a carry over from intense form work to running is something that I have never tried.


I think that HAS been answered by a few people here. Essentially, no. Intense form work (the vast majority of forms that is) tend to be anaerobic in activity, whereas running tends to be aerobic. Different results, really.

One of the posts points out that EVERY effective pro fighter in the world runs considerably as part of their training.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
I think that HAS been answered by a few people here. Essentially, no. Intense form work (the vast majority of forms that is) tend to be anaerobic in activity, whereas running tends to be aerobic. Different results, really.

One of the posts points out that EVERY effective pro fighter in the world runs considerably as part of their training.
;)

[WanderingMonk]

boy, did this thread grow.

Yes, running is good for cardio.
Yes, all serious fighter all use running as part of their training

basically, someone on another forum mention he uses form in place of running. I thought that was "outside of the box" application. so, I thought I'll mention it.t goes.

doing form work has advantages of training muscle memories, going through similar motions as what you might use in a fight. No, I am not suggestion form directly translate into fight application. It does help with the structure and power-generation.

running maximize cardio benefit, but it doesn't do the rest. of course, fighters has bag work, shadow boxing drills, sparring, etc to train those attribute.

I just want to look at this "outside of the box approach" and see how people think of it.

[David Jamieson]

well, in short, I make use of all of it, though admittadly I run less, much less than pro-fighters do.

I do run though and do forms and use the heavy bag and partner training.

I don't think that forms should be used in place of running if you are looking to get to the top of the MA game or even the top of your personal ma game.

You could likely put in a few runs a week, still practice forms and all the other good stuff, including weight training, including classical weapons etc.

Now some of you may ask "but where will i get the time?"

To that I would reply, well, you do have the rest of you life don't you? And if you are going to be a pro fighter, then get a coach who has a regimen that works for the venue you want to be in and take it from there. Oh and buy the way, whoever that coach is, I'm willing to bet a nickel that there is running in the training course. :p

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by jun_erh
tigrentra/ omar - but you need endurance to be prepared for a situation. If you get tired out walking a couple of blocks to your car it's gonna be pretty hard if theres an altercation there for some reason

That's silly. You are making some awfully broad assumptions about my training. I have..in the past few years...gone out and ran. Not as part of my training but because I had an uncle who liked to run and asked me along or I wanted to give it a try or there was one point when my GF was a big runner so once in a blue moon I would hit the trails with her.

It turns out, that even though I run not more than maybe once every 2 years, when I do, a 5 mile run is not a problem. I don't get excessively winded, I don't even pant much. Nevermind walking a couple blocks to the car. I think the reasons are several:

-My current forms practice is HIGHLY aerobic. My heart rate goes up and it is extremely difficult to not be sucking wind just half way through.

-The time that some people invest on a larger gas tank I have instead invested in a more fuel efficient car.

-I LOVE bag work.

-Sparring also helps you spar longer.

Despit the ultra bold type, Serpent is not really on target. The Baji forms can not be are incredibly aerobic the way I do them. The problem is that they are ALSO aenerobic. They are too demanding on your musculature to keep it up continuously for a long time. But what you can do, is blast through Baji the way it's supposed to be done and then just rest long enough to be able to go at it again. Repeated training will let you get up to maybe 10 or 20 reps. My best for a single session is 10. Each run through takes about 2 minutes. That's 20 minutes without the breaks. You can't do it without at least brief breaks but jsut check your pulse. If it's still racing along when you start the next rep, you are training aerobically.

Even with pro-fighters because THAT situation VERY different from a typical fight. I can last much longer than any REAL fight possible ever could. Have you EVER seen a real fight go on for half an hour? Do you get breaks every 3 minutes? Even between skilled opponents...just how long will it take before friends, police, bouncers etc arrive? How long can your average pro-fighter REALLY without stopping? That means no circling for position, no exploratory jabs, no feeling out your opponent in the first round, no looking for weaknesses. Just ATTACK!!! full strength, non-stop.

I know I can go at least the distance of my form before wind becomes a factor. ie. I can launch a continuous attack that lasts 2-3 minutes minumum.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk

doing form work has advantages of training muscle memories, going through similar motions as what you might use in a fight. No, I am not suggestion form directly translate into fight application.

Then why do you want it in muscle memory?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
True. But we're not talking about sedentary out of shape people vs. athletic people.

When talking about martial artists we're talking about people who are generally athletic but are looking for ways to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of there training.

Like we are

;).

there are alot of MA that are out of shape. Not all schools are cardio intensive.


My point of sharing is that I think that originally TCMA training was designed with the idea of teaching you to fight in a quick and decisive way, not in an extended format.

why did it change?

[joedoe]

I know I can go at least the distance of my form before wind becomes a factor. ie. I can launch a continuous attack that lasts 2-3 minutes minumum.

Going 2-3 minutes all out in a form does not equate to going 2-3 minutes all out in sparring/fight. The resistance of an opponent makes it much harder to do.

[omarthefish]

You haven't seen my form.

I have done plenty of 3 minute full contact rounds.

The form I do is at least as taxing. Not all forms are created equal. And depending on the level of my opponent I can keep up sparring for 10-15 minutes without a break.

I am also fairly certain that you are going to assuming for your self that my sparring is just pattycake tag and that you have also a fairly wooden concept of what "forms" are like. You are probably also vastly underestimating my ability to conserve energy in a fight.

It's the only way for that statement to be accurate. I'm sure it matches with your personal experience of both forms and fighting. Just not mine.

[Becca]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
I think that HAS been answered by a few people here. Essentially, no. Intense form work (the vast majority of forms that is) tend to be anaerobic in activity, whereas running tends to be aerobic. Different results, really.

One of the posts points out that EVERY effective pro fighter in the world runs considerably as part of their training.
Yes, different results, but not because the forms are anaerobic, but because they train your body differently. I can do my forms aerobicly. I can take hiking to the aerobic level very easlilly. But I only run if someone is chasing me.;) It hurts. I have a very messed up hip, and running up any type of incline just flat our hurts. BUT. I do bike, hike and other things for my aerobic workout, because forms work the body differently. They teach your body who to keep moving a specific way for a long time. They do not teach your cardio-vascular system how to pump the blood efficiantly to all parts of they body while its under that kind of stress.

[Serpent]

Repeated forms done properly will have a similar aerobic training benefit as wind sprints. I'll give you that. ;)

[mickey]

Greetings,

This is a fun thread because it touches on the High Intensity concepts developed by Arthur Jones. These concepts have inspired circuit trainig, HIIT, TUT, wind sprint training, the list goes on. He had already proven during the West Point Experiment that High Intensity weight training develops an aerobic component that was superior to the benefits derived from running. Yes running is great but that isn't to say that there isn't better.

My own experience came from training Tan Tui, twelve lines done ten times each. That was a killer. I hope I can get back to that one day. I have to add that cardio, calisthenics, basic training (punching, kicking, stancework, drills), as a foundation, were essential to making that happen. Yet, even with that foundation it was tough. I would include high intensity weight training if I was to embark on that again.

For those who need something to make contact with consider this: it has been demonstrated time and time again that boxers tire faster when they fail to make contact with their opponents when throwing punches.

mickey

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Then why do you want it in muscle memory?

don't poke holes in my arguments :)

[David Jamieson]

full contact fighting indeed drains the energies.

if you want to fight 3x3minute rounds, then you have to train 3x10 minute rounds and feel fresh after them before going for the 3x3. This fits with the idea of train high, fight low in some respects.

each solid hit you take, robs you of wind and blood flow and mental focus. With each little tick off the meter, your time to the floor shortens.

omar- 15 minutes continuous is good, but i am not certain there isn't a lot of strategy going on there as opposed to all out and continuous tactical action.

I too can go 15 minutes, but it is burst/strategy/burst/strategy

however, in timed rounds full contact. 5x3minutes is friggin hard work. 3x3minute rounds is the standard for FCMA (full contact martial arts) with champ challenges being 5 rounds. Except in boxing where there are more rounds and less weapons used, no choking, no holds and locks, etc etc.

anyway, train hard and get your endurance up. Running training is a very different animal and much much thought and effort has gone into refinig the practice of running. don't sell it short and use it for what it is, a cv builder extraordinaire.

it's worth it to run a few times a week. even to your own limit. Get the right shoes and make sure you know they are right. Have your structure analyzed. Are you supinating for instance and which way and where do you need the support to correct that. etc etc.

running is highly effective, cheap, and anyone can do it so long as they gots legs that work.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
Yes, running is good for cardio.
Yes, all serious fighter all use running as part of their training


Nope...

Frank Shamrock's an elliptical crosstrainer man like myself... this was said around the time he outhustled Tito Ortiz....

There are others who don't spend a lot of time running/jogging... they've been posted on this and other forums over the last couple years... not sure I'm going to search them out, but they're out there....

You don't have to jog 5 miles a day to be in fighting shape.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by omarthefish
You haven't seen my form.

I have done plenty of 3 minute full contact rounds.

The form I do is at least as taxing. Not all forms are created equal. And depending on the level of my opponent I can keep up sparring for 10-15 minutes without a break.

I am also fairly certain that you are going to assuming for your self that my sparring is just pattycake tag and that you have also a fairly wooden concept of what "forms" are like. You are probably also vastly underestimating my ability to conserve energy in a fight.

It's the only way for that statement to be accurate. I'm sure it matches with your personal experience of both forms and fighting. Just not mine.

Whatever.:rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
You don't have to jog 5 miles a day to be in fighting shape.

yes, you do....shuddup. :p :D

[David Jamieson]

elliptical training is traing the cardio in the same way without the impact stress. It is more or less the way to run without high impact.

so, to exclude it as the "form" of training ain't really sayin much against the idea of running, elliptically or otherwise.

some folks can't afford gym memberships and therefore cannot access elliptical machines.

anyway...just saying, whether you do it elliptically or on the road, the essence is essentially the same. Especially when compared to forms.

Elliptical is only an alternative, not a huge difference in cv training.

[Pork Chop]

kung lek

thought the argument here was whether forms, if done in a cardio-type fashion could be looked at as a replacement for running.

the pro-running people seemed to say that running was the only way to go.

others were more open to the idea of cardio with different mechanics as being acceptible.

you wouldn't believe how many online people have said that elliptical crosstrainers aren't nearly equivalent to running, even knowing that you can raise the resistance rate to anaerobic proportions.

in an earlier thread on the subject; i think the idea was put forth that the most "efficient" cardio exercise was the one that taxed the most number of muscle groups, the greatest amount (within sustainable reason), for the longest period of time.

furthermore, guys like merryprankster favor "sport specific training methods".

cardio exercise is needed to get in fighting shape- no argument here.

I also agree with the other poster that some forms lend themselves better to being cardio replacements.

I've done long forms of tai chi before; while I've sweat, had sore muscles, and slightly elevated breathing by the end, i wouldn't say the intensity lent itself to being a cardio replacement.

Fast wushu, some of the southern long arm, northern shaolin/tantui done at a high speed, and other "fighting set" forms done at a rapid pace with strenuous postures that make you breathe hard ARE better at lending themselves to being cardio replacements.

The problem then becomes time; as even high intensity interval work should take place over a period of AT LEAST 20 minutes (including rest rounds). If you're doing forms instead, expect 30 to 45 minutes of back-to-back forms, alternating between medium-high and sprinting intensity.

Just to re-iterate, I think forms, done in the correct fashion, could be a more-than-sufficient form of sport-specific cardio training; and that running specifically (as an exercise) is not necessarilly required.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
The problem then becomes time; as even high intensity interval work should take place over a period of AT LEAST 20 minutes (including rest rounds). If you're doing forms instead, expect 30 to 45 minutes of back-to-back forms, alternating between medium-high and sprinting intensity.


That's the part that doesn't happen for most people's forms training. It doesn't ALWAYS happen for me. But sometimes I go out there with a goal of doing my Baji at full intensity and speed 10 times. If I rest only long enough for my heart to come down out of my throat and then go at it again, it takes about 40 minutes.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

if you want to fight 3x3minute rounds, then you have to train 3x10 minute rounds and feel fresh after them before going for the 3x3.


Actually, if you're going to fight three minute rounds, you absolutely /don't/ want to train ten minute rounds - it gets you used to pacing yourself for ten minutes instead of three. Rather, you should train 10 3 minute rounds, so that you are pacing yourself correctly for three minute rounds, but also working yourself harder than you will be in the actual fight.


3x3minute rounds is the standard for FCMA (full contact martial arts) with champ challenges being 5 rounds.

Which kinds of FCMA? Muay Thai standard is 5x3 minute rounds, MMA standard is 3x5 minute rounds in the UFC, one ten minute round and two five minute rounds in Pride. UFC title matches are 5x5 minute rounds. Lower level shows vary wildly, although 3x5 is about as close to a standard as you'll find.

[SevenStar]

FD has paced himself correctly in training and is now well prepared to beat the correct into the ground

[David Jamieson]

sorry, typo, i did indeed mean 10 - 3minute rounds to fight effectively for 3 - 3minute rounds.

and i stand corrected on teh matches, musta had boxing in my head when i wrote that. fcma=longer time, less rounds.

:p

anyway, that's what i meant

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
sorry, typo, i did indeed mean 10 - 3minute rounds to fight effectively for 3 - 3minute rounds.

and i stand corrected on teh matches, musta had boxing in my head when i wrote that. fcma=longer time, less rounds.

:p

anyway, that's what i meant

No sweat, dude. The round thing does vary wildly in the smaller shows, anyway - I've been one of the sparring dummies for several of our fighters before Reality Fighting and Mass Destruction, and we've seen 3x5, 3x4, 3x3, 1x6, 2x4, and just about any other combination you can think of. Things are still very negotiable on the lower level shows.