Calculus for wing chun "Steiner Point Theory".

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

This is one of the many concepts that will be shown on our new DVD's. The “Steiner Point” (advanced calculus) is a point located within a triangle such that the distance from a point to all three vertices is minimal. This concept is an example of optimization with respect to minimization. Does your wing chun use this concept applied both to your triangular offensive and defensive structures? how do you work on getting the most out of your wing chun, with the least amount of movements? Here is a diagram that I made explaining this theory.

"Diagram" (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm)

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Here is a perfect example of the “Steiner Point” Theory in action. Are you able to cover a lot of offensive and defensive ground with the least amount of movement? You should, and if so, the “Steiner Point” theory will help you develop or make it even stronger.

From a living legend of wing chun. (http://www.windycitywingchun.com/movies/index.html)
Go to the clip that has 4.6mb under it.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Ali-
You seem to talk about the same thing my Sigung (Fong) calls the "zero point" concept.
My Sifu ,Patrick Gordon, wrote an article in Kung Fu /Tai Ji magazine about this. (Jan./Feb 2003 issue)

Good thing if you came to the same conclusions!...;)

[wingchunner]

(I have to be brief), this isn't a very good example of the Steiner Point theory. I would recommend those who are interested that they do a search for "steiner point" on the internet to get a better explanation of the "steiner point" theory.

In your picture with the triangle it is better (and more simply explained) as the circumcenter of the triangle.

As far as using the simplest/shortest route method of getting the job done, the Steiner Point theory is good. But, on simple triangles, geometry works better. It might be better to keep this in mind when adressing your audience.

BTW- A "Steiner Point" May not necessarily be a "point".

Marty

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I came to that same conclusion in 1996 that’s when I started fighting this way. Here is a simple understanding for those who may not understand. When you hear me speak of positioning and structure, what I’m talking about is somewhat like standing in the middle of a tornado, outside of the tornado is very wild and unsettling but inside it’s like a regular day but without the sunshine. If the hands is held high near the face (outside of the tornado) and someone throws a punch at your midsection and when you bring down your hands too block the shot, the travel distance for the block is over worked, therefore by the rules of the “Steiner Point Theory”, or math, that block is insufficient do to it’s travel time. That’s like having two generals in one fort and you are being attack from all sides, but you put both of your generals on the west side of the fort, leaving the rest unprotected. Sometimes you my feel that you are protected, but when it comes down to action by your structure being off line you will have too over work your wing chun, in most cases to the point of wildness. If your wing chun techniques are smaller then your opponent’s then you have greater odds of winning. If someone has a knot of hundreds too give away would you turn two flips and hop, our just walk up and reach out your hand and say thank you. That’s just a small sample of what I’m talking about. I would love too see that article you talked about, if you can help me find it. Take care Mike. Well you know, that's old school wing chun for yah.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitrwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Far as vectors concerned and with applaication it's real and a point. with (physics, calculus and geometry) LOL. That's what I want, I can go on for days on this subject. let's do math, you keep looking for the way for it's already in my head. get all the info you need from the internet then come back and lets have a good time, thank you. I didn't think anyone would post. this is great. Without a point The “Steiner Theory” will not stand in all math, maybe you been misinformed?

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Position "D" to minimize (AD + BD + CD.)

without "D" there is no Equation, the vector to "AD"would not exist there has to be a starting point. without "D" there would be vertices without vectors. Hence no “Steiner Point”.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwincghun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Geometry has nothing to do with optimization with respect to minimization, when wing chun is in action. Geometry deals mainly with structure and positioning.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Wing chun’s main offensive and defensive structure is a triangle, so it would be fitting to use the triangle with the “Steiner Point theory”. Geometry is the triangle, which has nothing to do with motion.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Ali-
I don't think the article is online but maybe you could put your hand on the magazine issue of Kung Fu/Tai Ji (jan/feb 2003).

You will see it express very similar ideas.Zero points are related to your defensive and offensive structure and awareness of the relative lines of attack and defense.To be short; the more zero points you can maintain,(like an army maintaining good cohesion and tactical position) the more chances you have to defeat your opponent. There are physical,technical as well as mental zero points.
This is my simplified way to explain this approach.My sifu,who was born speaking english does a much better job in this departement!...;)

BTW,I think that Sigung is doing a good job taking old Kuen Kuit and translating them into a more modern language.It provides with better understanding of these principles.I believe you do the same?...;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

We are on the same note and that was a good explanation of your point, looks like we are on the right track together. I’m glad someone can talk at this level with me. For a minute I thought I went over everyone’s head with this stuff being so simple to understand, now I know that’s not the case. Old Jong you hit the nail on the head.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I’m glad someone can talk at this level with me."

ARE YOU KIDDING???


"For a minute I thought I went over everyone’s head with this stuff being so simple to understand..."

TOO SIMPLE.

At the end of the day...as far as real fighting is concerned...a punch is still a punch...a centerline is still a centerline...

and this theory along with a token will get you on the nearest subway train.

[old jong]

I did not create that thing.I was lucky to have this transmited to me by my Wing Chun family.Before,I was chasing hands and thinking "technique vs technique" like almost everybody!...(from outside this forum of course!);)
You are right.It is simple stuff! But stilll it takes lots of practice to fully ingrain. Lots of good chi sau,awareness in forms and drilling,sparring whatever,using Wing Chun.
You should talk to Fong about this.I'm sure he will appreciate your work.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

But I love taking the shortest route home.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
We are on the same note and that was a good explanation of your point, looks like we are on the right track together. I’m glad someone can talk at this level with me. For a minute I thought I went over everyone’s head with this stuff being so simple to understand, now I know that’s not the case. Old Jong you hit the nail on the head.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)
Sounds like your student Nelson Marcelino to me. He was always talking about theories like Steiner Point.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Thanks Mike, and hopefully we will become wing chun brothers soon. Joy, you and myself.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Too simple!...
Yes,sometimes it is too simple.This is the reason why so many are adding all kinds of stuff to a simple theory. IMHO

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Before you and Nelson split up, Nelson spent some time with me, which made him very discouraged about his wing chun pass. I’m sure you seen it in class, after he refused to take his sash promotion.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Thanks Mike, and hopefully we will become wing chun brothers soon. Joy, you and myself.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

I willl be happy to welcome you in the family. I would also enjoy meeting you and practicing with you someday.
Have a nice day!...I have to leave now.;)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Geometry has nothing to do with optimization with respect to minimization, when wing chun is in action. Geometry deals mainly with structure and positioning.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Einstein's general relativity theory is very much concerned with motion and ties together time and space. General relativity theory uses differential Geometry. The resulting equations can be used to predict planet motion.

"Due to the natural curvature of space, the shortest path between any two objects is never a straight line, but a curved line called a geodesic. "

Ray

[old jong]

We could also speculate that a direct punch travels a certain path to it's target that is curved by the distance the planet goes through space during the same moment and by the gravitational pull of the same planet. ;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Ray-

That was good, but not when dealing with the human anatomy, far as application dealing with two vectors clashing with one or another (stage before chum). What you are talking about is one vector and one vertice with no resistance just all offense, fighting and moving all by it's self, no need for the "Steiner Point Theory" which holds offense and defensive vectors and vertices from all kinds of different angles, what you are talking about is a theory that proves that the world it’s self is round, very good post. Not really wing chun theory, but still good.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

When trouble shooting my wing chun I use math because math doesn’t lie. Just like any scientist theories concerned with motion and time and space, they use number too find their theories to be correct or wrong. It will make your wing chun subtle and small. The Woo Fai Cheng system structures and applications fit right in with physics, calculus and geometry.

Ali Hamad Rrahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Vajramusti]

Ali- I dont know what the Steiner point is.
I naturally understand what Old Jong refers to as zero point- but I dont know how it relates to Steiner point. The problem is in part mine because I am extra careful about downloading, openong attachments and have saved myself some pc grief that way.

I try to approach wing chun from as many dimensions that seem relevant. Experience is a great teacher- so is analysis. Geometry,
applied physics, anatomy, physiology, comparative psychology,
mechanics, TCM, disciplined observation, regular practice, working with others in varying formats- all can be sources of info.

My own POV was developed in somewhat reverse order- I settled on wing chun in 1976 after considerable exposure toa variety of other martial approaches. I have not regretted it.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Hello Joy-

I’ll do my best too brake it down. Jacob Steiner invented the “Steiner Point”. Make any kind of triangle Isoceleles, Scalene or equilateral. The point inside the triangle (imaginary ball), possibly somewhere in the middle of the triangle, this ball will measure the minimal combined distances of the ball to all three vertices of the triangle.

Just as I make a defensives move my structure never retracts backwards unless I have too adjust my timing, based on how ever my offense or defensive structure stands upon vectors or energy coming in on my centerline or offense and defensive structure (but try not too move the feet). I will hold that position which I have gained and not think about taking over my opponents structure, simply because my opponent is taking the fight right too me, all I have too do is stand my ground, if it’s the offense or defensives structure or upper and lower triangles, pretty much based on the rule of trying to never step backwards, while all along keeping my defensive structure in a position (“The Steiner theory”) where I can get a jump on his offensive structures with timing while never losing any ground and keeping my opponent from gaining ground which seems like your Zero point theory maybe I'm wrong. Simply by threading forward or with jamming type energy, techniques such as yut fook yee or with da, no matter where my structure falls I will keep the same attitude optimizing and minimizing my offense and defensive structure. This way I can find large opening in my opponents’ structure, eliminating large movements such as vectors or energies on my part. By understanding this theory (“Steiner Ponit”) you would not have too move your feet that much.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

[Vajramusti]

Ali- thanks for the explanation. It sounds like a equivalent of a zero balance point in a traingle, circle or sphere. But there are other zero points in different contexts.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I’m sure there are all types of possibilities from many different standpoints. The "Steiner Point" is just one. Take care Joy, always nice to have a talk with you. Oh yeah the “Steiner Point Theory” was invented, taught, illustrated and demonstrated by using three different types triangles, that seems to be the only structure, because of the three 60% angles in the triangle (“vertices").

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Hey Ali!
Check your email!...;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Mike-

That would be great if your sifu could post that article you talked about on your web page.


Joy-

Could you give me just a little info: on the “Zero Point”, I’m like you, I’m a little lost on that theory. What is the “Zero Point”.


Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Vajramusti]

Ali-
Every relationship ( your own structural realtionships in ygkym, the relationship between you and your opponent in chi sao or gor sao, relationships at a bridge or point of contact ) has a zero point-
where you have equalized the forces and are ready to move on.
With skill devlopment it becomes natural point of control.

[old jong]

Ali!
Joy is giving a very good explanation here.Zero points is Tactical as well as structural ,ETC. Every aspects of Wing Chun can be analysed and perfected through the Zero points lens.
I feel that your triangle concept goes in the same direction,using other words.

You should feel free to contact my Sifu (http://www.cyberus.ca/~p.gordon/middles/con1.htm) for more infos on his article and subject.I'm sure he willl be pleased to answer your questions.Just tell him I sent you!...;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Thanks Joy I like that.

This is how we use the “Steiner Point” with offensives penetration; imagine two triangles with the vertices facing each other (tips of the triangle), kind of like an hour glass but without the curves, by you holding your ground as your opponent enter with an attack. the two triangles will merge developing chum on your part, this is when the “Steiner Point Theory” changes position moving to the tip of your triangle, then all of your offensive movements will be just inches from your opponents mother line, and boy can you get a lot of power from that point.

Ali Hamad Rahim.


detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

You are right Old Jong, Joy’s post was really good. You always can tell when a man is very intelligent, by covering so much info without out using that many words, I liked it a lot. When I have time to just sit down and talk, I will write your sifu,

Thanks Mike.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Funny how this talk about "infiltrating" instead of going around!...Do I get your idea?...;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Just Old School wing chun with a mathematical twist.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Thanks Ali!...I already can see benefits from your approach.
Talk to you soon!...:cool:

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I hope joy and you enjoy the gift (DVD) when production is finish.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Thanks Mike. Like wise.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Funny how this talk about 'infiltrating' instead of going around!..." (Jong)

Infiltrating directly in...IS USED...in TWC, Michel. And isolating two-on-one (hands) while in the middle is also possible (still referred to as a blindside in TWC) - though more difficult to achieve than when the parallel foot is positioned to the outside of the opponent's lead leg.

But infiltrating directly in - instead of going around...is done by the TWC fighter. Whatever the situation calls for.

[old jong]

Victor
Your are getting political!... "In TWC...ETC..." I was talking about WING CHUN and Wing Chun's principles,not TWC at all!...Can there be Wing Chun discussions without that showing it's nose?...

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
I hope joy and you enjoy the gift (DVD) when production is finish.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

I'm really looking forward to it!...It will be enjoyed for sure! :cool:

[old jong]

Ali!...
You have a private message!...;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay, Michel...then let's try this on for size:

MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THE BLINDSIDE STRATEGY

"Funny how this talk about 'infiltrating' instead of going around!..." (Jong)

Infiltrating directly in...IS USED...by wing chun systems that also advocate going around. And isolating two-on-one (hands) while in the middle is also possible (still referred to by some as a blindside position) - though more difficult to achieve than when the parallel foot is positioned to the outside of the opponent's lead leg.

But infiltrating directly in through the middle (whether a two-on-one hand advantage is achieved or not) - as well as going around...are 2 strategies that are both used by some WC systems. In other words - you do whatever the situation calls for.

[old jong]

:rolleyes:

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Fighting this way can make you quite aggressive (The Steiner Point theory), but in a very, scary soft way.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

I already know!...It really makes the "recieve what comes" Kuen Kuit alive,and eliminates the unnecessary motions.You are there,in the opponent's face!...I remember an ex Sifu of mine telling me "open your heart" all the times!...That was it!...;)

Thanks for sharing this idea!

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I’m glad it works for you Old Jong, Thanks!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

The beauty of this is that the defense and offense become so interconnected! I find myself working differently even on the dummy!
I'll keep on experimenting with this idea and I will keep you informed.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Man after working with this for a while, you’re be wanting too snatch someone in a closet too test your theory out. Knock them out the frame!!!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Mike said:

The beauty of this is that the defense and offense become so interconnected! I find myself working differently even on the dummy! I'll keep on experimenting with this idea and I will keep you informed.



Hey Mike-

I can tell you been practicing the “Steiner Point” cause that’s what you’ll see when you do. Keep it up man, your wing chun will be so small and subtle, they won’t see it coming. A true fighter that hits hard and for real. . “Closer than close”, that is closer then most.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Man after working with this for a while, you’re be wanting too snatch someone in a closet too test your theory out. Knock them out the frame!!!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Yeah! Snatch the shnit out of them!...:D

Hey Mike-

I can tell you been practicing the “Steiner Point” cause that’s what you’ll see when you do. Keep it up man, your wing chun will be so small and subtle, they won’t see it coming. A true fighter that hits hard and for real. . “Closer than close”, that is closer then most.



A real close range art! I once read about somebody telling "We should remove everything unnecessary about Wing Chun,make it simpler" I think making it smaller does the trick.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Old Jong said:

Yeah! Snatch the shnit out of them!...


LOL.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Attention to all: don’t get me wrong it’s good too move your feet with the “Steiner Point theory”, but only after you have bridge contact, so you want get confused about your next offensive move, so the feet can follow the hands with chum. “Stay with what comes and follow what goes”. This way you remain close with full power, “Old School” wing chun, at least the “Leung Sheung” (Yip Man's first Hong Kong student, for those who did not know) way of fighting. This way you waste no time or movements.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Simon]

Ali

does the theory change if the opponent shoots, grapples for a takedown etc?

It seems that it depends on a stand-up chi sao position as a prerequisite.

Cheers
Simon

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Sure it can work well for grapping also, I use it too keep from going to the ground. I tested it in a real sparring match with an UFC champ here in Detroit His name is Tyrone his nickname is “Ty”. He hit me one good time, which woke me up fast, then he tried too shoot for my legs, by understanding the Steiner Point theory dealing with triangles, offense and defensives structures, it was easy for me too adjust that theory in distances,
so when he shot for my legs I pancaked him (a grappling term) stopped his forward momentum in its tracks with a trap, then road the bridge up his chest with four too five punches rocking him every time, about four times in a row, boy was he stupid. Then I body slam him and the guy just quit, that’s no lie, on my soul I’m telling the truth. But on the ground it works also using arm locks, chokes, and chin na. This concept can work with all martial arts really. I have over twelve students that can bag that story up. His wife and my wife were there.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I tested it in a real sparring match with an UFC champ here in Detroit His name is Tyrone his nickname is “Ty”.....

Exactly which UFC's did he fight in - and what's his last name?

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I would love too get that info for you as soon as I can. We just call him “Ty” But his school is on seven mile and the lodge freeway. One of my students has fliers that the guy made. This guy had the belts and everything he is the real deal. He came up to my school with a challenge when I was not there, so I went up to his school when I got back from LA.(this movie stuff I’m doing), and broke him off something, now we have the up most respect for each other. Yeah the guy is pretty famous here in Detroit. In the city we only call each other by our nicknames

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Simon]

should be able to find him here(?)

http://www.ufc.tv/fighterPage/allFighters.asp

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I don’t see him there he must be in a another fight association just give me time and I will scan his info for you, he is a full contact grappling champion with two belts . I just don’t keep up with that stuff. I always fought that way here in Detroit anyway.

I think I beat him because of his age, he is in his late 20’s and only been grappling for nine years at that time, and had no ideal on how too stop my punches, I mean; he let me do the same thing over and over again. I felt kind bad afterwards that it went down so one side it, but its cool now.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

may wife and his wife were there, his wife looked liked she was about to cry so I slacked up a little. Man this guy was buffed jumping rope with a motorcycle chain, making people scream when put in ankle locks. I looked like a little kid to this guy, but he couldn’t fight his way out of a wet paper bag with a sludge hammer. He tried too over power me, and I just went soft every time, its like he just ran into my hands every time.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Simon]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
I looked like a little kid to this guy, but he couldn’t fight his way out of a wet paper bag with a sludge hammer.


Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
boy was he stupid

but....


Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
...now we have the up most respect for each other.

i find a lot of what you say conflicting.



Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
may wife and his wife were there, his wife looked liked she was about to cry so I slacked up a little. Man this guy was buffed jumping rope with a motorcycle chain, making people scream when put in ankle locks. I looked like a little kid to this guy, but he couldn’t fight his way out of a wet paper bag with a sludge hammer. He tried too over power me, and I just went soft every time, its like he just ran into my hands every time.

great story :rolleyes:
maybe a bit of discussion of your theory in practice rather than chest beating would be more interesting.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

This guy charges a Thousand dollars a month and people are paying for it for real, he is doing great, because they seen him fight on cable!! Well what can you say?

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwinchun.com)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Does the theory change if the opponent shoots, grapples for a takedown etc?..."

"Sure it can work well for grapping also, I use it too keep from going to the ground. I tested it in a real sparring match with an UFC champ here in Detroit His name is Tyrone his nickname is “Ty”.

"Exactly which UFC's did he fight in - and what's his last name?..."

"I would love too get that info for you as soon as I can..."

"This guy had the belts and everything he is the real deal. He came up to my school with a challenge when I was not there..."

"Yeah the guy is pretty famous here in Detroit. In the city we only...call each other by our nicknames..."

"Should be able to find him here(?)..."

http://www.ufc.tv/fighterPage/allFighters.asp

"I don’t see him there he must be in a another fight association just give me time and I will scan his info for you, he is a full contact grappling champion with two belts..."

"I just don’t keep up with that stuff..."

"My wife and his wife were there, his wife looked liked she was about to cry so I slacked up a little..."

"I looked like a little kid to this guy, but he couldn’t fight his way out of a wet paper bag with a sludge hammer..."

"This guy charges a Thousand dollars a month and people are paying for it for real, he is doing great, because they seen him fight on cable!! Well what can you say?..."

.................................................. ...............................


Here's what I can I say...


NOT A CREDIBLE STORY AT ALL - FROM START TO FINISH. YOU MAY HAVE FOUGHT SOMEBODY WITH YOUR STEINER POINT THEORY, ALI...BUT HE WAS NO UFC CHAMP.


Geez...You must think we are all a bunch of morons around here. The bull5hit detector is ringing off the charts right about now!!!

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Well that’s ok cause its at least 30 people I know, knows the truth, I knew I shouldn’t bought that up, but since someone asked I gave a honest answer. Let’s just say It’s a lie for now, tell I’ll get the info, just give me time. May not make a differences anyway. I have no reason too lie, but that’s cool you have your opinion and I have the truth. I’ve come to far in my life with wing chun to make lies, I have nothing to prove. I would have people posted about the event, but they would be on my side. Time will tell. You pretty much called me a lie, so you know I have too come with the info. Ok I’m a lie, for now. You must think I’m a pu*k or something, boy you really don’t know!

Ali Hamad Rahim

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

He told people himself that I beat him, and we talk too each other real hard, in a way you wouldn’t understand, and don’t get up set about it, so if he see this forum he wouldn’t care, cause he knows the game and its all about respect when it’s all done.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

They are men, just like I am a man, what in h*ll should I be afraid of, I fear no one but God. That guy, he’s a fighter just like I am, I was just the more talented one that’s all, and I don’t need fame, so that’s something I rather not talk about, but I did it anyway pretty dumb on my part, since everyone is afraid of grapplers on this forum. I didn’t think it was such a big deal, he may have won belts, but he couldn’t take me. A lot of guys whom throw punches won belts against grapplers. I won’t take anything from them because I’m a grappler too. By thinking that way, I clearly know what level you are at. You clearly couldn’t take the next step, you are still stuck on something else.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ultimatewingchun]

You have no idea...do you Ali...of my involvement in wrestling?

You should read some of the past threads on the archives - so that you get a better understanding of who it is around here you're talking to.

And I don't mean just me...I mean a lot of people who post here.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

If what I say is a lie, then what makes your words so better and truthful then mine? What and who gives you the right too call me a lie? I wonder if they seen footage of you sparring, would you like too show them? I have it first hand, are you saying they all made you authority too judge people? Those posts want mean anything but the fact that someone said something on a forum, just like me, no better then no one else, so those posted are all lies till proven true, at least that’s what I got from you. Don’t tell me too go to the archives too see what I’m dealing with. How would that tell anyone about his or her levels of fighting? According to you. Why is it, that I can’t beat a grappler, because you said so? Do you believe that wing chun can’t do it all by it’s self? If that’s the case, then I know you’re not on my level. If you want too impress anyone, always stick with the thread stop all the bull sh*t, just give us some good info on “The Steiner Point Theory”. It seems that all of your posts are bitter and angry

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Geez...You must think we are all a bunch of morons around here. The bull5hit detector is ringing off the charts right about now!!!

I don't think that Ali is lying if it's what you imply here!



Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
You have no idea...do you Ali...of my involvement in wrestling?

You should read some of the past threads on the archives - so that you get a better understanding of who it is around here you're talking to.



The only concrete idea we have about you is what you beat our ears with all the times.

Staying politicaly correct should be a minimum around here IMO.

[old jong]

Check your private messages Ali!

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Hey Mike-

How is the Steiner Point working out for you, come up with some new ideals that I can work on?

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

I'm not sure if I could come with something to surprise you!...Not yet!...;)
But,one thing that work very well with the concept is to apply the "rattan" or flexibility to it. It can pull the opponent (it does actually) even more in your offensive triangle. Your structure is well protected by the smooth compressive action of whatever the motion used and you use the "rattan" to bounce the counter attack to him (it is often simultanous). I will work more on this at my next class next mondy night.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm going to say it again, Ali...

There are so many holes and inconsistencies in your story that the end result is...I DON'T BELIEVE THE GUY IN QUESTION WAS/IS A...


UFC CHAMP.


As in...Ultimate Fighting Championships.


These things are documented...and you don't even know the guy's last name???!!!

Remember Ali...these are your words ("UFC champ") I'm quoting.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

OK, I got it wrong they’re all UFC too me, lets just stay with thread for now. You are right.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
........ I looked like a little kid to this guy,.........
Ali Hamad Rahim.
detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)
Do you mean 5'6" BJJ Purple Belt Tyrone that also teaches in Warren, MI? If that's the Tyrone I know how can that be since you're 6'5" and nearly 300lbs?
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"I tested it in a real sparring match with an UFC champ here in Detroit His name is Tyrone his nickname is “Ty”.....

Exactly which UFC's did he fight in - and what's his last name?
Victor, his name is Tyrone Gooden. He has no recollection of the incident.
Phil

[old jong]

Why not say directly that Ali is lying on this forum?...I know the guy is big enough to defend himself but I simply hate this kind of attitude.
Private matters should be delt with in private messages at least.Anyone is free to disagree with a certain theory or lineage doctrine as:Flanking ,triangle or whatever. and post as much as they want for or against it, it is a discussion forum but attacking the person or his credibility for the sake of making him look bad for personal reasons outside of the forum interest is not good.

Let's keep out personal wars out of this place.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

That is not him Redmond, he lives in Detroit and he don’t believe in belts. By the way, how did your fight come out, you know, the one that you talked about for two months or so? Hey you are close, how about a little friendly sparring match I'll be nice. and I am not 300lbs I,m 270. keep it real. I'll give you $2000. for video release if we can have a friendly match. I went up too his school today, you did not talk too him. He would love to a have a match with you also, from my understanding he may come up to you school just on a visit, all in the name of respect take care. see you soon.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

He will do me this favor and post on this forum himself. He has beaten wing chun, and lost against wing chun. That’s what he will say.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I never seen a purple belt with a school of his own, boy was he pi$$ed. when he seen this, but I can calm him down. It’s cool, LOL. Let’s just stay with the thread subject for now.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
Why not say directly that Ali is lying on this forum?...I know the guy is big enough to defend himself but I simply hate this kind of attitude.
Private matters should be delt with in private messages at least.Anyone is free to disagree with a certain theory or lineage doctrine as:Flanking ,triangle or whatever. and post as much as they want for or against it, it is a discussion forum but attacking the person or his credibility for the sake of making him look bad for personal reasons outside of the forum interest is not good.

Let's keep out personal wars out of this place.
Hi Michel:

Hi Michel, I know a Tyrone that used to teach at the school in question. It's that simple. Speaking of personal wars, I'm not the one that posts a website link here that slanders other Sifu. You'll see none of that on my site.
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

"He will do me this favor and post on this forum himself. He has beaten wing chun, and lost against wing chun. That’s what he will say...I never seen a purple belt with a school of his own, boy was he pi$$ed. when he seen this, but I can calm him down. It’s cool, LOL. Let’s just stay with the thread subject for now..." (Ali Hamad Rahim)



There was a play written by William Shakespeare that I highly recommend you read, Ali...

It's called..."MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING."

Which kind of describes and explains this whole thread.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
That is not him Redmond, he lives in Detroit and he don’t believe in belts. By the way, how did your fight come out, you know, the one that you talked about for two months or so? Hey you are close, how about a little friendly sparring match I'll be nice. and I am not 300lbs I,m 270. keep it real. I'll give you $2000. for video release if we can have a friendly match. I went up too his school today, you did not talk too him. He would love to a have a match with you also, from my understanding he may come up to you school just on a visit, all in the name of respect take care. see you soon.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Oh c'mon ya big bully, you're 6'5", almost 300 pounds. I'm 5'6", 175 pounds. Why do you wanna pick on me? lol

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

It’s not the same guy. Why Redmond? Cause I can.

LOL…..LOL….LOL

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detrortwingchun.com)

[Ultimatewingchun]

You can what ???

"I'm trying to bully you (Redmond)...because I can."

Is that what you're saying, Ali ?

Well let me let you in on a little secret: you're not going to bully anybody from Phil Redmond's part of the world.

And how do I know that?

Well let me put it this way...

Hidden within every bully there's a coward who's just begging to be exposed for what he is.

Is that what you're looking for?

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Thank you for that info, I feel much better now, thanks for the support. all is say now, come stop me. What ever I have, it's with redmond, no one else. he out ranks you any way. I'LL SAY IT ONE MORE TIME, STAY WITH THE THREAD SUBJECT THANKS. I know that was not a threat was it.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Speaking of personal wars, I'm not the one that posts a website link here that slanders other Sifu. You'll see none of that on my site.
Phil


YOU ALREADY HAD YOUR FUN, I JUST STAYED SILENT WHEN YOU DID. IT'S FULL 360% NOW!!

I had no ideal that those authors were not telling the truth, when some of them (articles) come from old publications and with the authors names. I had no ideal that the Emin & Cheung video was edited too make it look like Emin won. They are just old facts that I brought out. I didn’t make them myself.

Ali Hamad Rahim.


detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ultimatewingchun]

There is no rank between Phil and I...we're brothers who treat each other like equals in all ways.

And I'll decide what I'll post about on this thread - not you.

And it's you who's been doing the threatening...and the slandering...and the lying.

I think what I wrote is pretty clear - after all a lawyer would never advise his client to make a blatant threat on a public forum - now would he?

Read between the lines as well as on them.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Ok just checking, now its time too stop going at each other on this forum and just stay with the thread topic, Thanks

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Ok just checking, now its time too stop going at each other on this forum and just stay with the thread topic, Thanks

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)



That's great...Now all you've got to do to insure that the topic is maintained is to stop posting all the B.S. Propaganda that people like myself or Phil will call you on.

[Mr Punch]

Ali, I know this is too late, but if you wanna avoid all this kind of nonsense in the future, you can just explain how you beat some experienced grappler with your geometry... I wouldn't mention 'UFC', 'champ' or anybody's names...!

Anyway, back on topic, have there been any articles on this subject I can read about? I'd never heard of it, and although I'm about as much use with maths as Charlie Chaplin was with opera, it looks like it merits further investigation.

Just one question... is there a protractor set after the baat set?! Compasses?! :D ;)

Cheers,
A 'hit em with your fists' traditionalist!

[Vajramusti]

Mat sez:

Anyway, back on topic, have there been any articles on this subject I can read about? I'd never heard of it, and although I'm about as much use with maths as Charlie Chaplin was with opera, it looks like it merits further investigation.

Just one question... is there a protractor set after the baat set?! Compasses?!

Cheers,
A 'hit em with your fists' traditionalist!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mat:

((Of course a fist is just a fist. Some folks are just fighters, others
are just analysts, some do both.

Charile Chaplin BTW was multi talented...opera was within his curiosity- though his show talents were elsewhere- specially given silent films.... where he did his early work.

Archie Moore was not only a fighter but a pretty good analyst too--he spoke of triangles in hand formations. Cus D'amato, a great teacher also was interested in shapes- the peek aboo was an example... when Tyson began to move away from Damato, Atlas etc trachings-his downhill slide began.

You can illustrate dummy angles with a compass. There are angles, lines, triangles, circles, points,spheres, pyramids in wing chun structure and dynamics. You can ignore them, get them wrong or get some insight into them. A great adventure- depending on the level and kind of interest.

[wingchunner]

Ali Hamad Rahim:

I haven't been able to post for a bit due to my graduate studies and the holiday.

First, you should know that if you use in your media, whatever form, you should not state the "Steiner Point" theory is an advanced calculus subject. I've checked 4 of my advanced calc books (which includes analysis) and it's not mentioned in any of them. You might want to say advanced analytic geometry, or perhaps even topology instead. Topology does utilize some advanced calc.

Second, why make it sound so difficult? Everything you've stated can easily be shown using high school level geometry. It sounds like you're trying to complicate the concept rather than make it simple, which is part of what wing chun is all about.

Wing Chun does work with mathematical concepts, but nothing an average person wouldn't understand.

Third, you are mistaken when you say mathematics doesn't lie, it can. There are paradoxes throughout mathematics.

Fourth, Vectors are good to isolate a situation in static positions; its very good for arm-chair martial artists. However, if one tries to utilize vectors (i.e.- analyze while you're training/fighting) too much your mind becomes focused on a (the) vector you're trying to utilize and then the technique becomes forced, which is not what wing chun will try to do. When a technique is forced, the energy can be captured and used against you. This can be explained using vectors, but must be felt to truly understand. Wing Chun is not a static art, it's a dynamic one; constantly changing based on sensitivity and position. It's mathematics and physics in motion that's unpredictable. Once you're predictable, you're had.

Just my thoughts.

Marty

[Ultimatewingchun]

wingchunner (Marty):

You hit the nail right on the head with this...

"Why make it sound so difficult? Everything you've stated can easily be shown using high school level geometry. It sounds like you're trying to complicate the concept rather than make it simple, which is part of what wing chun is all about...Wing Chun does work with mathematical concepts, but nothing an average person wouldn't understand."

But especially so with this...

"Vectors are good to isolate a situation in static positions; its very good for arm-chair martial artists. However, if one tries to utilize vectors (i.e.- analyze while you're training/fighting) too much your mind becomes focused on a (the) vector you're trying to utilize and then the technique becomes forced, which is not what wing chun will try to do. When a technique is forced, the energy can be captured and used against you. This can be explained using vectors, but must be felt to truly understand. Wing Chun is not a static art, it's a dynamic one; constantly changing based on sensitivity and position. It's mathematics and physics in motion that's unpredictable. Once you're predictable, you're had."

You've really summed it up perfectly.

Good post!

[old jong]

There is nothing complicated in the idea. I'm no mathematician so I did not get stuck on the name Ali gave to his idea and I simply tried on what I got from it (the actual idea!).The thing is good for me! It works but I guess you have to open the mind a little bit and take what is good for you. Of courses,many will just argue for the sake of arguing or even worse for personal reasons out of this forum.Some will choose a word or expression from the concept explained and start a ridicule debat on side-meanings just for the sake of mixing everything up and render the topic fuzzy.
Thanks for turning this good thread into another "ugly" thing.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun


- after all a lawyer would never advise his client to make a blatant threat on a public forum - now would he?

Read between the lines as well as on them.

Big warrior turned lawyer?...:)

Seriously,anybody is better with a good ennemy than this!...:D :D :D

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Marty said:

vector you're trying to utilize and then the technique becomes forced, which is not what wing chun will try to do. When a technique is forced, the energy can be captured and used against you.


Never will use force with my wing chun, been around too long for that, just all skill. You must trust your wing chun. When you don’t trust it, you will do all kinds of stuff too try to make yourself complete. When all you need is right there all along, but with the lack of trust, you will feel like; if you can’t do it no one can, because wing chun only works or is good for certain things. Then you do not understand the art fully, not enough too protect yourself with it. Let a lone kill when needed, because there is no trust. Without trust, you wouldn’t dare explore the depths of the art, because you will feel that it is a waste of time.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Lack of trust is the prime reason why so few make it to high level in Wing Chun.A lack of trust generaly based on fears. A real Wing Chun practitioner has to put away his fears and take his responsability with himself and his choices.What does he really want to learn well?...Wing Chun or something else?...If your answer is Wing Chun,you should start focussing on Wing Chun and forget about your fears of having holes in your skills.How could somebody become real good in something if he doesn't even dare to put the effort in it?...Only the braves*(1) who accept to be different and not to be influenced by the current trend in martial arts will actually have a chance of learning Wing Chun for real. (not IMO but a fact!)

*(1) It takes courage to trust Wing Chun when learning it.It doesn't look "Bad" to the untrained eye and many would like something with a more intimidating or conforting aspect!... A most understandable thing today!...If somebody comes to my place and ask about Wing Chun vs "this or that" I just tell him to find a school about "this or that"!...I don't want to lose precious training and teaching times convincing somebody who doesn't dare to take his responsabilities with his choices.

[old jong]

Victor-Don't you understand that I have nothing to do with this story?...Why are you trying to involve me in it?...Ali is no doing this and I appreciate this from him.He happens to have pretty valid Wing Chun views that relate to mines.We get along on these things.I don't dislike Phil at all aldo you sometimes get on my nerves a little bit with your ****y attitude but that's simply diagreement on Wing Chun subjects 99% of the times so nothing wrong on a discussion forum.Let's keep that forum on Wing Chun topics and leave the personal attacks and diffamations out of it.

BTW,you did it again! You could have PM me instead of doing this on the forum.

[SAAMAG]

WTF?! :confused:

[old jong]

I got your PM victor!

IMHO. The hatchet should be buried for good!...Everybody should smoke the peace callumet,forget about everything and simply enjoy teaching and practicing their own brand of Wing Chun without ever looking back at the past. This is the only sensible thing to do.


BTW victor, I really like this theory because it relates very much to one of my Wing Chun family premier principle. It even happens to complimente it in my particular case.You don't like it?...It's your prerogative,no problem with that! I like to share about Wing Chun and Ali is doing just that that's all.

We're guys in our fifties. You know that?...;)

Don't ask vankuen!...;) :D

[SAAMAG]

yea I read a little bit of it long ago, and since I despise math, I stopped reading it. Now I comeback and it's full o' drama!

At this point Im just too lazy to play catchup.

[old jong]

This forum is bigger than life,full of adventure ,mystery,danger,drama,suspense,sometimes Wing Chun!...;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...Jong...Van...

I decided to delete the post !

Don't want to take away from a much bigger task...the kind of thing that's going on within the "WC - Good,Bad,Ugly" thread.

Getting into all these storms between Rahim, Nelson, and Phil (even though Phil didn't do anything to bring it all on)...will only serve to take me off a more important track. Don't want to take my eye off the ball.

Phil's a big boy. He can take care of himself.

[Wayfaring]

Hello.

My name is Dave, and I'm a HFY player from Phoenix AZ. I read a lot on this forum, but am just starting to post.

Since I have had the fortune (or misfortune) to get a degree in mathematics, and am also a wing chun player, I thought I'd chip in on this thread. Upon first reading I honestly didn't remember encountering Steiner points in any calculus I've had. After looking into it a little more, actually Steiner's Theory, Points, and overall mathematical contributions have more to do with projective geometry than calculus, which basically is a study of inscribing shapes in other shapes and checking out their characteristics.
This is interesting - more on it later...
(This also explains why I hadn't encountered it - I got a C in geometry in jr. high school because I always ditched class to play volleyball with the girls :) )

Jakob Steiner was a dude that lived in the early 1800's, and was pretty smart, especially considering he didn't learn to read or write until he was 14, and just started attending school at 18. Here's a link to his bio -
http://faculty.evansville.edu/ck6/bstud/steiner.html

Steiner's Theorem states that states that the Pascal lines of the hexagons 123456, 143652, and 163254 formed by interchanging the vertices at positions 2, 4, and 6 are concurrent (where the numbers denote the order in which the vertices of the hexagon are taken). The 20 points of concurrence so generated are known as Steiner points.

Naturally, didn't that just clear it right up for you? .... :cool:
Me either. Here's a picture...
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SteinerPoints.html

It appears these points have some concurrence when examining a triangle inscribed within a circle.

What does this have to do with wing chun? I'm not real sure, unless it's describing the optimal contact point bridging on what I've heard described as "blind side" positioning here. However, from reading previous posts, I'm not real sure that's what the author intended to say. He seems somewhat against that.

At any rate, bringing up Steiner points has got me interested in checking out projective geometry w/r to wing chun, and I believe that triangles inscribed within circles, and circles inscribed within triangles certainly do have a great depth available to understanding the geometries of wing chun.

So while I wouldn't advise including the math part on a teaching DVD unless updating some research, thanks for the post inspiring me to look into it a little more.

Rgds,
Dave

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Mat said: No, I didn't, that was Marty.




Thanks for the discourse Joy, and the clarification Michel. I'm not actually as stupid as all that... but it doesn't hurt to be underestimated! ;)

I do tend to like the simple life though, and follow the zen adage of 'Learn and forget'... that is the theories are fine to learn, and then to internalize, and then forget them and let the subconscious take over.

I was after a link that explained it in more detail if there was one, cos the thread was turning ugly but now we're all lovely little wingchun love bunnies again :)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Steiner Points
Hello.

My name is Dave, and I'm a HFY player from Phoenix AZ. I read a lot on this forum, but am just starting to post.

Since I have had the fortune (or misfortune) to get a degree in mathematics, and am also a wing chun player, I thought I'd chip in on this thread. Upon first reading I honestly didn't remember encountering Steiner points in any calculus I've had. After looking into it a little more, actually Steiner's Theory, Points, and overall mathematical contributions have more to do with projective geometry than calculus, which basically is a study of inscribing shapes in other shapes and checking out their characteristics.
This is interesting - more on it later...
(This also explains why I hadn't encountered it - I got a C in geometry in jr. high school because I always ditched class to play volleyball with the girls )

Jakob Steiner was a dude that lived in the early 1800's, and was pretty smart, especially considering he didn't learn to read or write until he was 14, and just started attending school at 18. Here's a link to his bio -
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~hi...s/Steiner.html.

Steiner's Theorem states that states that the Pascal lines of the hexagons 123456, 143652, and 163254 formed by interchanging the vertices at positions 2, 4, and 6 are concurrent (where the numbers denote the order in which the vertices of the hexagon are taken). The 20 points of concurrence so generated are known as Steiner points.

Naturally, didn't that just clear it right up for you? ....
Me either. Here's a picture...
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SteinerPoints.html

It appears these points have some concurrence when examining a triangle inscribed within a circle.

What does this have to do with wing chun? I'm not real sure, unless it's describing the optimal contact point bridging on what I've heard described as "blind side" positioning here. However, from reading previous posts, I'm not real sure that's what the author intended to say. He seems somewhat against that.

At any rate, bringing up Steiner points has got me interested in checking out projective geometry w/r to wing chun, and I believe that triangles inscribed within circles, and circles inscribed within triangles certainly do have a great depth available to understanding the geometries of wing chun.

So while I wouldn't advise including the math part on a teaching DVD unless updating some research, thanks for the post inspiring me to look into it a little more.

Rgds,
Dave



Wow you guys can get viscous. Hey big fellow maybe I can teach you something, the Steiner Point is real, that’s the attitude that I keep talking about; If I can’t do it, no one can. BOO HOO BOO HOO. LOL….LOL…LOL. It is a geometry problem (because of the triangle) that can be solved with calculus….LOL. YOU SHOULD GET YOUR MONY BACK FROM THAT SCHOOL YOU WENT TO. Calculus minimizes the vectors. Geometry does not work with vectors as well as calculus. Maybe you are not taking the right classes.

Check this out:

http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/alexander/mathtye/steiner.htm

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Here is the right link. Thanks too may student Nelson, who is a advanced math major @W.S.U.... BANG!!!!!

"The Steiner Point Theory" (http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/alexander/mathtype/steiner.htm)

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

We’re not done, oh no! Not even close. The info that I have coming, will prove against all the negativity, that is on this thread. LOL…LOL…LOL.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Wayfaring said:

I got a C in geometry in jr. high school because I always ditched class to play volleyball with the girls )

Is that why you answered with a guess on your post?

Wayfaring said:

It appears these points have some concurrence when examining a triangle inscribed within a circle.


The Steiner really don’t work with circle, it work mostly with the 60%. The illustration was too help out with the diagram,DUH. You must love looking at the pictures in your book, when you were in class, I did too. That’s what I’m talking about, keep them coming.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Wayfaring]

Wow you guys can get viscous. Hey big fellow maybe I can teach you something, the Steiner Point is real, that’s the attitude that I keep talking about; If I can’t do it, no one can. BOO HOO BOO HOO. LOL….LOL…LOL. It is a geometry problem (because of the triangle) that can be solved with calculus….LOL. YOU SHOULD GET YOUR MONY BACK FROM THAT SCHOOL YOU WENT TO. Calculus minimizes the vectors. Geometry does not work with vectors as well as calculus. Maybe you are not taking the right classes.

** I didn't intend the post to be vicious . Maybe this is the wrong thread to discuss this because of all the other static regarding the MMA dude. You're shadowboxing here. I wish I could get money back from schools - but that's not how it works. First you pay tuition to go. Then they hit you up for life for donating to alumni associations. You seldom use much of what you paid for.

Anyway, thanks for the other link - it actually clears up some of the math references. I think I can help you with making all of that accurate mathematically. The points you're referring to are actually generally referred to as Toricelli points - the point that's equidistant to each leg of a triangle with equal 120 degree angles. That's the first diagram shown.

Steiner points / Steiner trees are solving that same distance optimization where there are more than 3 points - n points. Now I remember where I ran into these - in Operations Research, where you're trying to solve max / min problems, like optimizing how many Circle K's to build in a state to maximize profit given a whole bunch of constraints. That's the diagrams shown down the page a ways with all the points.

Now back to the wing chun principles you were endeavoring to illustrate. You think the energy here is negative? Where's your wing chun? Turn it, and fill the void with positive energy.

Care to elaborate more on the Toricelli points and most efficient position? Is the T point your mun sao or wu sao? What range do you work? What facing? What gate - high, mid, low?

Rgds,
Dave

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Sorry about that "viscous" stuff, that statement that you made hit hard (so far in too production).

Wayfaring said:

So while I wouldn't advise including the math part on a teaching DVD unless updating some research, thanks for the post inspiring me to look into it a little more. Wayfaring


Wayfaring said:

Now back to the wing chun principles you were endeavoring to illustrate. You think the energy here is negative? Where's your wing chun? Turn it, and fill the void with positive energy.

Care to elaborate more on the Toricelli points and most efficient position? Is the T point your mun sao or wu sao? What range do you work? What facing? What gate - high, mid, low?

Can't do that, all that stuff will be on the DVDs. But who knows, maybe something will pop up, take care Dave.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Wayfaring]

Best wishes on the DVD production.

You don't need to scrap the whole research and math concepts, just adapt and remove the illusion, just like in wing chun.
I'm sure we can all benefit from a greater understanding of the geometries and vectors of the human structure on the battlefield. Math is a great illustrative tool to communicate to the mind clearly what is to be ingrained into the body.

The concept of removing that which is not efficient is on the right track. In the HFY that I've learned there is only one combination of time, space and energy that is most efficient for a given moment.

Rgds,
Dave

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Wayfaring said:

Best wishes on the DVD production.


Why thank you Dave.

Ali


The concept of removing that which is not efficient is on the right track. In the HFY that I've learned there is only one combination of time, space and energy that is most efficient for a given moment.

Rgds,
Dave


True is that, True is that!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Can't do that, all that stuff will be on the DVDs.Oh and here was me thinking this was a thread to share information...! :rolleyes:

[YongChun]

Here's a geometric proof to this geometry problem:

http://agutie.homestead.com/files/Steiner0.htm

Book with other related things:

http://www.textkit.com/0_0691070784.html

"Off the Charts
When Least Is Best : How Mathematicians Discovered Many Clever Ways to Make Things as Small (or as Large) as Possible Review: Nahin's book is a tour de force about the deep intellectual threads that surround the notion of optimality. In physics, engineering, and mathematics, while touching on a wide range of applications, he asks over and over again: What is the optimal solution and why does it matter? Since I've spent most of my professional career thinking about optimality in one form or another, I was skeptical about how much new I would find in this book. But I was astounded to find something new and interesting on virtually every page. Some examples:"

[old jong]

Could you find a more complicated diagram?...;) There must be a more complicated way to explain this good and originaly simple idea!: Keeping the ideal distance and structure providing for effective action while minimising waste of dsplacement and energy. Simple eh?...;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Old Jong said:

Could you find a more complicated diagram?... There must be a more complicated way to explain this good and originaly simple idea!: Keeping the ideal distance and structure providing for effective action while minimising waste of dsplacement and energy. Simple eh?...

How so true, let’s stay with the Steiner Point using calculus within geometry. I took an already hard thing and made it easy; let’s keep from going backwards.

Ali


Mat Said:

Oh and here was me thinking this was a thread to share information...!

I’m sorry I don’t share. Maybe you didn’t’ see all of my other post on this thread. I must seem like a very bad person, forgive me; I’m sticking with the subject that I brought out from the beginning. If I do what every one ask of me, then I should just post the whole DVD on the Internet.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

While making these DVD’s, they are being analyzed by mathematician and students of W.S.U. here in Detroit Michigan.

Ali Hmad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

[SAAMAG]

Just out of curiosity....do you think that studying math, or the triangle, the points therein, or the circle around it is going to make your wing chun better? I'm just curious where you're trying to go with this....because it seems like just something else for you to debate and prove to everyone else that your wing chun and you, are better then everyone else. But then, we're on a forum and that's just the way it seems....no offense intended.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

It will take away useless movements and keep you from being wild with your wing chun, that’s all that I been staying on this thread all alone, just read the thread. That’s all you need too do, read and think just a little. You are trying to repeat the thread all over again, the info you seek is on this thread already, take care.

Ali


Vankuen said:

do you think that studying math, or the triangle, the points therein, or the circle around it is going to make your wing chun better?


You don’t have too study math, I just show how math works with the geometry of the wing chun structure. I will give you the answers visually and mathematically on DVD. When dealing with energies, distances and vectors ect, using numbers or math has always been the way for engineers too find their answers, I just use it with wing chun, because wing chun is full of triangles, that has all types of motions that comes with the territories
of the wing chun fighting structures. Good post you made there.

Ali Hmad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

seems like just something else for you to debate and prove to everyone else that your wing chun and you, are better then everyone else. But then, we're on a forum and that's just the way it seems....no offense intended.

Wow! I'm sorry I made you feel that way. that’s not the case at all. If I did feel that way, why share my opinions or info on this forum, no one is better than no one else. I’ll do better in trying not too make you feel that way again, forgive me. IT’S JUST SOMETHING THAT I CAME UP WITH, AND LET’S JUST KEEP IT ON THAT, NOTHING MORE THEN THAT. WOW....WOW....WOW!!!

Ali Hmad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Vankuen said:

Prove to everyone else that your wing chun and you, are better then everyone else.

Is it maybe because I don’t fit the stereotype, profile or views of what many people think, that would make you say such a statement? Thank you, now I know what I’m dealing with, when it comes to you.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Could you point out how; on this thread, how I made you feel like I was better then you, or maybe you were just being nasty, just taking another shot at me. for something you can't understand. and refuses too understand, but it's too simple not to understand.
it's not hard at all, then again I don't know you, so it may be kind of hard for you too understand it, sorry if I'm wrong.

Thanks.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[SAAMAG]

I'm trying to say that your intentions ARE what they seem to be, only calling it like I see it. It's not a shot a you personally, because I don't know you personally. I only know what I see of you on here, a public forum. So all the dirty laundry that goes thrown around here is seen by more then a few people.

It just seems, as of late with some of you interactions with others that your demeanor seems to be that of "bullying" and intimidation. I can do searches to quote but I should think that wouldn't be necessary. Quite often it's between you and Phil but I don't think I need to go into that.

I understand quite well many of the things you speak of, when I wrote what I wrote, I had just gotten done skimming through some of the thread. I started to think, "wow...would the study of math really improve wing chun?" Then I started thinking realistically and thought....no. But then, you're just sharing something you noticed about wing chun and it's geometric ironies. Nothing wrong with that. It's kinda like seeing the face of the devil in the clouds of smoke coming off a fire. It may seem that it's there for a reason, but it's probably just a ironic coincidence. Every movement of fighting can be related to just about any geometric shape or angle. There's just no way around it. But that's just my opinion....

Just forget I posted it. I think I just got outta the wrong side of the bed this morning....

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

That face you see in the clouds, is my black a$$ coming after anyone who violates my family and home, he just didn't know!!!!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[SAAMAG]

Well, funny how it's never been metioned and yet we all know about it. And it's hard to hide one's personality flaws on a public forum...PUBLIC forum.

But like I said, forget it was every posted.

[Toby]

I don't post often on the wing chun board because of threads like this one, but man, you've got some aggression showing Ali! Funny stuff.

Anyway, my first point of call on mathematical topics is usually Mathworld (http://mathworld.wolfram.com), as has already been linked. Based on your opening post on this thread, it appears what you really mean is the first Fermat point (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/FermatPoints.html) as opposed to the first Steiner point (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SteinerPoints.html). The first Fermat point fits your definition perfectly. There are a bunch of references at the bottom of the Fermat points link that will corroborate the theory.

[SAAMAG]

Just to air the dirty laundry that you yourself put out....since you don't know what I'm talking about in terms of making yourself and your wing chun look tough on here:


...I tested it in a real sparring match with an UFC champ here in Detroit His name is Tyrone his nickname is “Ty”. He hit me one good time, which woke me up fast, then he tried too shoot for my legs, by understanding the Steiner Point theory dealing with triangles, offense and defensives structures, it was easy for me too adjust that theory in distances,...


...may wife and his wife were there, his wife looked liked she was about to cry so I slacked up a little. Man this guy was buffed jumping rope with a motorcycle chain, making people scream when put in ankle locks. I looked like a little kid to this guy, but he couldn’t fight his way out of a wet paper bag with a sludge hammer. He tried too over power me, and I just went soft every time, its like he just ran into my hands every time.
...


...They are men, just like I am a man, what in h*ll should I be afraid of, I fear no one but God. That guy, he’s a fighter just like I am, I was just the more talented one that’s all, and I don’t need fame, so that’s something I rather not talk about, but I did it anyway pretty dumb on my part, since everyone is afraid of grapplers on this forum. I didn’t think it was such a big deal, he may have won belts, but he couldn’t take me. A lot of guys whom throw punches won belts against grapplers. I won’t take anything from them because I’m a grappler too. By thinking that way, I clearly know what level you are at. You clearly couldn’t take the next step, you are still stuck on something else...



...That is not him Redmond, he lives in Detroit and he don’t believe in belts. By the way, how did your fight come out, you know, the one that you talked about for two months or so? Hey you are close, how about a little friendly sparring match I'll be nice. and I am not 300lbs I,m 270. keep it real. I'll give you $2000. for video release if we can have a friendly match. I went up too his school today, you did not talk too him. He would love to a have a match with you also, from my understanding he may come up to you school just on a visit, all in the name of respect take care. see you soon.
...

In between these quotes Phil asks why he's picking on him...and the reply was...


...It’s not the same guy. Why Redmond? Cause I can.

LOL…..LOL….LOL
...

So you see the perception is merely based on what you put out. No one else on here speaks so nonchalantly of other fighters, or tries to "teach" other people on how what they do is incorrect. So here's just a few little examples of what I'm speaking of...and that's just from this thread. Would you like me to refresh your memory more?

[Vajramusti]

Van-

Chest thumping of one kind or another is actually not infrequent on this list.Phil and Ali have some issues that date back apparently several years and has nothing to do with this list.

Going back to selected quotes can prove quite different things.
I have never met Phil or Ali and know them only via the net. Phil for a longer period of time. Phil and Ali have to settle their own problems outside of the forum. Many comments on the forum including by otheres besides Phil and Ali keep bringing the issue back to the forum.

Once upon atime Ali mentioned that he was burying the hatchet.
The context was the forum because it was a forum post. But things started up again -in part mistakenly by Phil- by bringing up
Ali's website again- which is his website. Lots of websites have unusual materials from different POVs.

Rather than adding fuel to the fire- I suggest that folks on the forom ignore Ali and Phil's refernce to each other if and when it occurs..

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Closed due to personal attacks. Please feel free to start anew on a fresh thread.