Training ideas on creating better wing chun fighers?

[SAAMAG]

Taking the idea from the MT thread, and from things I recently saw in my local WT school...how can the people interested in effective fighting train their wing chun to achieve the same results as say the muay thai or BJJ fighters (not in the context of sport but rather in context of proven effectiveness)?

Let's analyze the generalities first...

The techniques in most "fighting arts" are simple, powerful, and effective. Nothing fancy. The more simple it is the more likely it is to succeed under stress.

Training consists of more drills and contact sparring and less forms. (Not necessarily less time on skill development, but rather the skill development is done during contact drills)

Movements are natural, and are in accordance with the human anatomy and it's ability to generate power in the most efficient method possible. As with anything, this evolves as time goes by. What doesnt evolve eventually becomes obsolete.

Now let's apply all this to WC/WT.

(These ideas are taken from my training in various arts, and my current WT kwoon and MT gym).

The form sets should be learned as soon as the person is physically ready to do so and retained as a log of the various movements in wing chun. These should not be thought of as a training tool to perform in real life, but rather as an ideal positioning to go by and available techniques one can use to practice in application. (Can't learn to apply fighting skills with the form sets alone)

Training on a day to day basis should consist of not only application of skills on live partners...but application of skills on live - NON COMPLIANT - partners. SPARRING IS A MUST.

Endurance drills should be done every class time utilizing WC movements as well as general body developing movements. This is a must as well. To think that one can perform optimally without keeping the body in optimal shape is a very dangerous delusion to have. This does not mean that one has to work out 24-7, but it does require consistency in training (a couple hours a day is better then a couple hours twice a week)

Quite simply put, to fight effectively one needs to train effectively. You can train in a Mcdojo, or you can train in a wing chun fighting kwoon. It's your choice. But don't claim knowledge of fighting...unless you fight or have fought. This only proliferates bad information and a false sense of security.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Van:

Going to repeat a post I did recently on another thread because it directly relates to this one...but will add a few things to it.

In the 3 hour class described - the last 1 hour 45 minutes or so is spent doing what you're about to read...

but the class begins with 20 minutes of stretching the entire body - including some yoga exercises... situps, Hindu pushups, Hindu squats, back bridges, chi kung breathing and concentration drills, and a few other strengthening/conditioning things thrown in as well.

Followed by a quick SLT, a few minutes of footwork drills, some punching and kicking of mitts, bags, and shields...and maybe 10-15 minutes of some chi sao and chi sao related exercises...

Then this:

"Progressive Sparring
The method I use to teach sparring is very progressive - meaning that we go through the sparring class in a incremental manner in terms of power, speed, intensity...step-by-step...from attacking drills and responses - up the ladder to the inclusion of when and how to kick...to this and that (all the while making the drills more-and-more spontaneous - adding a move here or there - and encouraging the partner to use any one of the moves just covered or added - and not be limited to the first two or three...into various other techniques and ranges - like a clinch, for example - perhaps followed by a sweep or takedown, for example)...with maybe 40% power and intensity...correcting mistakes as we go along...then 50-60%...more corrections...and more things added...then up to about 70%...

It's at this point - AND ONLY AT THAT POINT...do we gear up completely (headgear, thin gloves, chest protector, shin/knee pads, groin up)...and take it up beyond into 75-80-85-90%, etc.

In this manner ALL kinds of mistakes can be avoided and/or corrected - as well as avoiding needless rookie mistakes and injuries.

But most importantly of all - we are learning the system - and not just becoming kickboxers trying to throw in some wing chun moves...if a progressive sparring model is used. (This latter problem will invariably happen if sparring is rushed...or you will begin to rely on only a few wing chun moves..ie. - chain punching, forward rushing, etc...which are not the best moves, by the way - FAR FROM IT...they are at the bottom of the list).

But the danger from the other side of the coin has to be avoided also...too much time spent drilling/sparring at 40-50%...and the real hard 90%+ sparring (and contact) never gets done."
.................................................. ...................................

So by the end of this class we've covered a lot of bases with a small group of people (6-8-10)...all of it leading up to real contact sparring against a resisting opponent - and we pair up and alternate taking turns playing boxer, kickboxer, karate, grappler, streetfighter... against each other - as well as WC vs. WC (most people in my class have done some other art before - so we pool the information/moves from other systems).

[t_niehoff]

IMO it boils down to whether we look first at the demands of fighting and then train accordingly (the pragmatist's approach) or begin with some ideal of what we think fighting should be and then train accordingly (the theoretician's approach). Anyone that actually fights -- whether they begin with that view or not -- will by necessity adopt the former.

[Ernie]

Are you a slave to the training system or are you free to apply skill gained from the training system?

Those that seek to apply wing chun shape or technique in a fight are not free and will always have problems, trying to make a live unstable situation fit your training system, it is the same mindset as saying [one is trying to go out and chi sau with there opponent] instead of fighting and adapting

Applying skills timing, distance, power, speed, etc… gained from the training system is different, this is when you are free from tan bong and fook, you understand them more as motions, idea’s not shapes or techniques

Then you will focus on cultivation of skill, and developing your individual attributes,

At higher levels the [lines between training systems fade away] it’s not a wing chun way or a Thai way or as boxing way, it comes down to how the individual has trained his or here attributes, conditioning and so on

Look at any sport, boxing, foot ball, basket ball the all use the same basic techniques, jab, cross, hook, jump shot, slam,

But what makes individuals stand out above the rest that have been doing the same techniques for the same amount of time ---- attributes, some are natural, some work and develop them

So to say how do I make a wing Chun fighter as good as a Thai fighter is a flawed technique way of thinking

It should simply be how do we make a great FIGHTER

[SAAMAG]

Are you a slave to the training system or are you free to apply skill gained from the training system?

Of course Im not talking about being a slave to the system Ernie...but at the same time, one cannot learn to apply that which they have learned without entering it into a live and free environment. True one should and will run into problems, but that is also where one will learn what works and what doesn't. That is where freedom begins and thus one of the main reasons to try and apply it in that environment.

Those that seek to apply wing chun shape or technique in a fight are not free and will always have problems, trying to make a live unstable situation fit your training system, it is the same mindset as saying [one is trying to go out and chi sau with there opponent] instead of fighting and adapting

Here I tend to disagree, or maybe I just misunderstand, but In my mind and experience wing chun can be applied in this "free environment", but only where applicable. I would not try to make it work in areas where it just doesn't. I will make the wing chun work during the fight, not use it in hopes the fight will conform to it. The only instance I can think of for this to happen is if you are so much better then your opponent that you can control his energies, but then that's an ideal situation which usually never occurs.

Applying skills timing, distance, power, speed, etc… gained from the training system is different, this is when you are free from tan bong and fook, you understand them more as motions, idea’s not shapes or techniques

Then you will focus on cultivation of skill, and developing your individual attributes,

At higher levels the [lines between training systems fade away] it’s not a wing chun way or a Thai way or as boxing way, it comes down to how the individual has trained his or here attributes, conditioning and so on

Look at any sport, boxing, foot ball, basket ball the all use the same basic techniques, jab, cross, hook, jump shot, slam,

But what makes individuals stand out above the rest that have been doing the same techniques for the same amount of time ---- attributes, some are natural, some work and develop them

Agreed. But I understand them as energies, and use them accordingly where it feels right. I can't say I think about it while I'm doing it because I don't. And again this is something that comes in time with application. But overall, attributes make the man.

So to say how do I make a wing Chun fighter as good as a Thai fighter is a flawed technique way of thinking

It should simply be how do we make a great FIGHTER

What the post questions is how to make a wing chun fighter as effective as a thai fighter. (Mainly because the thai fighters, although confined in their own style of fighting, are still quite effective and have proven track records to show this. Wing chun fighters, also confined in their own systems, have yet to do so overall.) But in reference to fighting in general, of course the last statement you made is the most correct of all.

To make a "FIGHTER" however, one must choose a path. As stated many times, this path can be a result of trail and error, or first through theory and technique that has already undergone the trail and error process at some time or is doing so currently. Most people today are of the latter. Now being from the latter, one must apply that which he has learned in as real an application as possible to realize all that you have said. That is why I feel that it is necessary for the wing chun fighter to apply things in the same mindset as say for example - the MT fighter or someone of the like.

[Ernie]

sounds like VU ,



Yep, I have spent time with him

Also same advice as WSL and just about any other very skilled fighter I have ever worked off

Universal truth is universal truth

To look at it from a wing chun [training system bubble]

You will forever be stuck with in the confines of shape and technique

These things are just the limbs and leaves of the tree

The tree the core, the attributes, your ability to utilize your skills and adapt to any given situation

That is the deeper meaning

The leaves can be interchangeable but the root is constant it will support, set up and maintain what you branches and leaves do

As for making a wing Chun fighter hold his on in a Thai environment

Been done research Gary he did it and trained guys for years stacked up a few trophies

Not that big of a deal

Just adapt your skill training into that given environment, rules, tools and so on build up your conditioning and get in there and dial in your attributes, get your timing and line familiarization, see what you works best in your personal tool box and hope you get lucky

It’s just a matter of adjusting your [leaves] weapons to fit that game

The real talent would be the guy that could walk into a Thai situation and hold his own, then walk into a boxing environment and hold his own or a stick environment or a ground and so on

He could spend a lifetime training the braches and leaves or just keep building his core and learn to be free and adaptable

For me it would make more sense to have universal tool with interchangeable extensions then to carry and maintain a whole bunch of tools around

Back to building a fighter , not sport specific

[Ultimatewingchun]

Van:

Want to respond to some of your opening remarks line-by-line...

"How can the people interested in effective fighting train their wing chun to achieve the same results as say the muay thai or BJJ fighters (not in the context of sport but rather in context of proven effectiveness)?"

SEE my first post...ie.- mucho time spent on live training/drilling/sparring with a partner and developing basic speed, distance, power and timing skills.


"The techniques in most 'fighting arts' are simple, powerful, and effective. Nothing fancy. The more simple it is the more likely it is to succeed under stress."

AND the same with the WC...keep it simple and direct...the fancy traps and stuff will come about later (and naturally).

"Training consists of more drills and contact sparring and less forms. (Not necessarily less time on skill development, but rather the skill development is done during contact drills)."

AGAIN...my first post covered this.

"Movements are natural, and are in accordance with the human anatomy and it's ability to generate power in the most efficient method possible. As with anything, this evolves as time goes by. What doesnt evolve eventually becomes obsolete."

GET rid of whatever WC moves/theories/techniques don't really pass muster in today's world...ie. - rushing forward with chain punches as your main attack strategy..."classical" (in some corners) 0/100 weighting - and it's twin brother: lack of on-your-toes footwork...especially when attacking (but not limited to just attacking)...over-reliance on attacking his center...and being hooked or outflanked in the process, etc.

"The form sets should be learned as soon as the person is physically ready to do so and retained as a log of the various movements in wing chun. These should not be thought of as a training tool to perform in real life, but rather as an ideal positioning to go by and available techniques one can use to practice in application. (Can't learn to apply fighting skills with the form sets alone)."

CORRECT.

"Training on a day to day basis should consist of not only application of skills on live partners...but application of skills on live - NON COMPLIANT - partners. SPARRING IS A MUST."

COVERED this already. And again you're right.

"Endurance drills should be done every class time utilizing WC movements as well as general body developing movements. This is a must as well."

I HIGHLY recommend shadow boxing in this regard.


"Quite simply put, to fight effectively one needs to train effectively. You can train in a Mcdojo, or you can train in a wing chun fighting kwoon. It's your choice. But don't claim knowledge of fighting...unless you fight or have fought. This only proliferates bad information and a false sense of security."

ABSOLUTELY...and the false sense of security also applies to other non-WC fighting scenarios...such as in-the-clinch and on the ground.

Now as to this exchange between you and Ernie:

"Now Those that seek to apply wing chun shape or technique in a fight are not free and will always have problems, trying to make a live unstable situation fit your training system, it is the same mindset as saying [one is trying to go out and chi sau with there opponent] instead of fighting and adapting." (Ernie)

"Here I tend to disagree, or maybe I just misunderstand, but In my mind and experience wing chun can be applied in this "free environment", but only where applicable. I would not try to make it work in areas where it just doesn't. I will make the wing chun work during the fight, not use it in hopes the fight will conform to it. The only instance I can think of for this to happen is if you are so much better then your opponent that you can control his energies, but then that's an ideal situation which usually never occurs." (Van)

YOU ARE RIGHT---seeking to apply wing chun shape or technique in a fight DOES makes sense - as long as the situation warrants it. (Otherwise...what's the point of even doing Wing Chun?)

[Ernie]

Sounds like Paul Vunak

[Ernie]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Picking up on a buzzword -

Mindset is most important - everything else you need is there in the wing chun training.

Common mistakes include not training with fighting in mind, and doing JKD, and mistakenly calling it wing chun.


he he or calling it wing chun thinking that means something getting knocked out while you explain why your tan sau must have angle abc

and looking up at the guy that dropped you wondering why it didn't work and he didn't seem impressed by it :p

[SAAMAG]

Ultimate...Something Im noticing...You are directing the answers to me personally....this was something I was thinking of for people to discuss viewpoints...not something I know nothing about. Just to clarify. I like to see people's various answers. That's what most if not all of my threads are. Just something to spark conversation.

Now in reference to Ernie, generally speaking, you and I are right on the same wavelength in terms of training. No matter what the style I've learned, the good fighters always say the same things. Like you said universal truth is universal truth (as far as what works) One thing though, just to knitpick... Im not talking about using wing chun in "a thai environment", Im talking about an environment that trains for reality...rather then concept.

Cool pick of you and Vunak. He looks a lot different nowadays. The last time I saw any footage on him he was pretty young.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"To JKD or not to JKD...that is the question."

(William Shakespeare...talking to Bruce Lee).

[t_niehoff]

Vankuen wrote:

Im talking about an environment that trains for reality...rather then concept.

**Thank you. "Concepts" come from application (we generalize based on our experience) rather than application coming from concepts.

[Ernie]

Van

I know were your coming from man , no worries , but when you go through the process , and , you investigate and hardcore with thai guys , boxers and so on ,

you change things just get alot clearer ,

I know you have cross trained and understand what I'm saying

so I just take the finger and point it back to the indivdual [ what it really comes down to in the end ]

sure we can list drills after drills to break down and develop each action and build progression , through pressure

I'm all for it Vic broke it down in his post

but even after we turn up the heat , we still need to take off the [ training] wheels

get in and fail , see our own holes and then the real growth begins

so I just pointed to the end of the road , and left the trail markers for others to fill in


as for VU that was like 5 years ago , who knows how he is looking now ;)



Vic ---- how about to look in the mirrior and be honest or to look out and put your faith in something external that is the question
:D

haven't been posting to much sorry for not contributing , been on the rehab thing for my latest injuries ,

keep bang'n man

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Those that seek to apply wing chun shape or technique in a fight are not free and will always have problems, trying to make a live unstable situation fit your training system..." (Ernie)

The same can be applied to a Muay Thai fighter....a BJJ guy...a Catch wrestler...a boxer...etc.

But what I don't hear being said is this:

People need to learn the basic shapes, strategies, principles, techniques, etc. of these respective arts...FIRST...

before they can improvise on them...bend them around...add this...subtract that...be creative here...put some parts together over there from two (or more) of these arts at a given moment - in a situation that wasn't done (by you) before...test it and retest it in a live environment - against various kinds of fighting styles.

Like a great jazz musician who learned the basics of his craft thoroughly before tryting to become "improvisational"...and then his solos just begin to take off from somewhere deep within..without much conscious thinking and no real pre-planning...

People talk JKD this and JKD that...but what many people forget is that Bruce Lee really STUDIED these various arts he tried to synthesize in DEPTH...(or - as in the case of Wing Chun - in as much depth as was possible and open to him)...but we've all read/heard the stories about how extensive was his martial arts library - and how many different stylists whose brains/moves he picked...BUT WHEN HE SAW SOMETHING GOOD HE WORKED IT TO DEATH BEFORE MOVING ON...(had a conversation with Inosanto about this back in 1979)...

What am I getting at here?

Got to really get DOWN with the WC shapes, strats, techniques, skills (ie. - chi sao) before looking past them. Notice I used the term "past them"...you can (and should) start working other non-WC moves while still drilling WC - and of course the same for attribute training...

But don't stop the pure WC stuff until you've really got it - and be careful in how you mix it all up until you've "got it"...

otherwise you might miss something very basic and yet very real.

[reneritchie]

Put them in the stands of an NBA game. When 7 foot giants are flying across the court to punch out fans, defensive skills will be honed super-fast.

[t_niehoff]

To paraphrase the late, great Rodney Dangerfield -- I went to a boxing match and a basketball game broke out! And we thought the Kimbo fans were something. ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's a little something I came across on a different website that might be pertinent to this thread:

There's a book entitled "Toughness Training for Sports"...

"I picked this book up at the bookstore and found this book to be very insightful. It's by James E. Loehr a leading sports psyschologist. It's a guide on toughness training to adapt your body to handle all kinds of stress-physical, mental, and emotional. He also goes into detail as to what real toughness (definition of)is-being adaptable, flexible, resilient, and stronger. And that toughness is most definately a skill that can be honed and developed.
He goes on to say whereas talent is a gift, skills are learned-that they are acquired through hard work and practice. BUT he states that talent and skill are important contributors to achievement in sport but they are not the most important factors. So many successful athletes exist today who are not gifted or have not achieved mechanical perfection-what they have is toughness.
He gives a more complete definition of toughness as the ability to consistently perform toward the upper range of your talent and skill regardless of competitive circumstances. There are is a nice progress chart on stress and recovery to help you peak in your sport. He has 3 nice basic principles:
No discomfort-no toughening
No pushing-no toughening
No confrontation-no toughening"