Buddhism and Kung Fu

[Kairo]

Do practitioners of both these disciplines exist here?

If so, could you please tell me what you think about the relative benefits they offer each other, or point me to somewhere that may explain this?

Thank you.

[norther practitioner]

You might want to ask this in the Shaolin forum.

[norther practitioner]

Oh, and do a search, it's been a while, but it has been discussed.

[Kairo]

Thank you :)

[SPJ]

Here is a link.

http://qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?-token.SearchID=ShaolinFAQ

[David Jamieson]

taoists can only count to three and then there is a gap of about 9,996 integers and then the last number and then nothing!

so, taoists don't count, at least, not like everybody else does.


:p

[SPJ]

Actually;

One becomes 2. (yin, yang)

Two becomes 4. (shao yin, shao yang, tai ying, tai yang)

Four becomes 8. (Ba gua)

8x8= 64.

And then 99. 108 etc.

:D

[David Jamieson]

hmmm

i think i heard it in a different form.

some may be more familiar with this variant:

1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 3 and 3 becomes the 10,000 things.

with 10,000 being a relative number, but essentially describing the universe or cosmological structure of things.

1= You

2= you and another

3= the product of you and another

10,000 equals the result of the original intent of one.

Of course there are likely still more variants of this. Of course there are. :p

[Christopher M]

Well, 1 is the 10,000 things too. But there are more ideas between 3 and 10,000. For instance 0 (wuji -- no extremity), 1 (taiji -- extremity), 2 (liangyi -- yin and yang), 4 (sixiang -- yin/yin, yin/yang, yang/yin, yang/yang), 8 (bagua -- sixiang + another yin or yang), 64 (bagua X bagua -- as in the hexagrams of the I Ching)... I don't know the derivations for eg. 108. Maybe SPJ will explain!

[Samurai Jack]

Well, if you can't count passed 10,000, then you still aren't counting like the rest of us. On the other hand, if you CAN count to 10,000 you have way to much time on your hands.

[FuXnDajenariht]

lmao... oy vey

[Christopher M]

The reality that can be an illusion isn't the true reality.

[mantis108]

Look's like there is a little blending here and there but...

Kung Lek's explanation would be closest to Daoist philosophy (ie Dao De Jing). But




1= You

2= you and another

3= the product of you and another

10,000 equals the result of the original intent of one.

This is somewhat blended with Buddhist view IMHO. Still very nice post. :) I agreed that there are more variants.

I Ching numerology is more less a model in an attempt to explore the reality that which we call the world. It is IMHO a function of Dao no more no less.

Just my 123

Mantis108

PS there are many traditions that has explanation of 108. So it really depends on your belief system.

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Well, 1 is the 10,000 things too. But there are more ideas between 3 and 10,000. For instance 0 (wuji -- no extremity), 1 (taiji -- extremity), 2 (liangyi -- yin and yang), 4 (sixiang -- yin/yin, yin/yang, yang/yin, yang/yang), 8 (bagua -- sixiang + another yin or yang), 64 (bagua X bagua -- as in the hexagrams of the I Ching)... I don't know the derivations for eg. 108. Maybe SPJ will explain!

I thought that:

Wu Ji is not nothing. Or no extreme, no polarity, no separation.

The number 0=no thing.

Therefore, Wu Ji doesn't = 0.

Weird but Wu Ji can only be explained by a double negative in Western terms (because of the inherent philosophical bias in our language.)

Taiji=2......Taiji is something and nothing or (1 and 0) or yin and yang.

Everything springs from Taiji into the 10,000 things including the Ba Gua, 5 elements, etc.

I just started reading a book called Why God Won't Go Away. So far they've layed out that the hypothesis that mystic experience stems from the part of the brain that orients us in the universe. This part of the brain "creates" and orients "self" and the reality that the self navigates through. When people are having a mystical experience it appears that this part of the brain functions differently and blurs the distinction, leading to a state of Wu Ji or non-separateness of the self from the rest of reality that the self resides in. Should make a good read.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
Therefore, Wu Ji doesn't = 0.

It's certainly a different concept than zero itself is. But the bagua are also a different concept than eight is -- we're just talking about the symbolic number system, in which wuji is zero, not suggesting these concepts are equivalent to the numbers.


Weird but Wu Ji can only be explained by a double negative in Western terms (because of the inherent philosophical bias in our language.)

What do you mean?


Taiji=2......Taiji is something and nothing or (1 and 0) or yin and yang.

No, Liang Yi is two: yin and yang. Taiji is not yin and yang, it is one thing: the polarization of wuji. Taiji is the mother of yin and yang as discrete entities. And yin and yang are not 'something and nothing', they are 'receptive and active.'


Everything springs from Taiji into the 10,000 things including the Ba Gua, 5 elements, etc.

Everything springs from everything. But the Ba Gua are not one of the 10,000 things which spring from Taiji. The Ba Gua are the Si Xiang combined again with the movement of yin and yang, which is very different than the 10,000 things.

You can see a presentation of these concepts related to taijiquan here (http://www.wuji.com/taiji_tree.htm) and baguazhang here (http://www.wuji.com/baguatree.htm).


So far they've layed out that the hypothesis that mystic experience stems from the part of the brain that orients us in the universe.

Yes, a section of the temporal lobe. This has been studied for a while now, in the laboratory provided by epileptics whose seizures are specific to this area. Recently, it's been possible to do more controlled experiments as a result of the invention of a noninvasive brain-stimulation device; work pioneered by Persinger (http://www.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_people/Persinger.htm).

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by Christopher M
It's certainly a different concept than zero itself is. But the bagua are also a different concept than eight is -- we're just talking about the symbolic number system, in which wuji is zero, not suggesting these concepts are equivalent to the numbers.

I just don't think that the number zero should be used because it has philosophical implications that come from a different culture. I could be incorrect here but I'm pretty sure that the Chinese did not invent zero. Zero implies nothing as in "the thing does not exist." The Chinese didn't see things as being so black and white.




What do you mean?

I mean a double negative because Wu Ji is not nothing and it is not something. It precedes something and nothing and separateness in general.



No, Liang Yi is two: yin and yang.

I haven't heard this term before. What is its intended meaning.


Taiji is not yin and yang, it is one thing: the polarization of wuji. Taiji is the mother of yin and yang as discrete entities. And yin and yang are not 'something and nothing', they are 'receptive and active.'

My understanding is that Taiji is the separation of Wu Ji into Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang symbolizes many things but what it really refers to in mystical terms is the division of the conciousness from the rest of reality. Whatever "reality" is.




Everything springs from everything. But the Ba Gua are not one of the 10,000 things which spring from Taiji. The Ba Gua are the Si Xiang combined again with the movement of yin and yang, which is very different than the 10,000 things.

My understanding is that the ba gua comes from the different combinations of yin and yang. The ****her you get from the mental side of things the more abstract it gets.




You can see a presentation of these concepts related to taijiquan here (http://www.wuji.com/taiji_tree.htm) and baguazhang here (http://www.wuji.com/baguatree.htm).


Thanks for the table. But again, I don't agree with the numbering system. The state of Wu Ji is without separation. Something that exists, also does not exist in this state. The term zero means, does not exist.

Wu Ji is not a void. Wu Ji is also not not a void.

How can that be?

Because as soon as we seek to name something as existing or not existing we miss what it truly is.

It makes not sense logically. But the point is that mystic experience defies logic.

Logic requires a subject and an object. In mystic experience that dviision is very blurry.

Not saying that I'm "right" per se just sharing with you how I see things.


Yes, a section of the temporal lobe. This has been studied for a while now, in the laboratory provided by epileptics whose seizures are specific to this area. Recently, it's been possible to do more controlled experiments as a result of the invention of a noninvasive brain-stimulation device; work pioneered by Persinger (http://www.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_people/Persinger.htm).

Very interesting.

:D

[Christopher M]

It might be easiest just to point to an introduction to daoist theory. This one (http://www.vermontkungfu.com/philosophy/baguaphilo.shtml) is brief and covers most of what we've been talking about. The main thing it's missing is the technical term 'Liang Yi' which you ask about, which the author refers to as "however, yang and yin separately are expressed as a broken line and a solid line respectively" at the top of the second page, where you can see that diagram adjacent to a taiji diagram to notice their differences.

[SPJ]

Wuji is theorized to be the beginning state where everything arise or derive.

Such as the primordial soup or an embryo.

Taiji represents both yin and yang.

Taiji is the dynamic of both yin and yang.

When you give a factor (limit), there will be things inside the limit (yang) and things outside the limit (yin).

Yin and yang arise at the same time and are interdependent.

One gets stronger. The other gets weaker and vice versa.

When yin and yang are moving, they are separating and expanding. This is Taiji.

When both yin and yang stop to move or interact, they are shrinking or contracting and coming together (in union) as one which is Wuji.

Tai Ji Ze Wu Ji Er Sen. Yin Yang Zi Mu.

Dong Zi Ze Fun.

Jin Zi Ze He.

[SPJ]

Yes, both 99 and 108 are mystical numbers.

99 is the best luck.

108 is 36+36+36.

If you have the top, the bottom, the left, the right, the front and the back (6 determinants/directional vectors) of movement of your left hand X 6 with your right hand, you have 36 moves.

Or 6 hand moves X 6 foot moves=36.

If you attack or defend high 36+ mid 36 +low 36, you have 108 possible moves.

These factors (hand, foot, or weapon etc) may vary, but you still have the 6 general directional vectors.

Some examples.

Shaolin 36 staffs, 108 wooden dummy Zhuang.

These numbers are also used in planning how to mount organized groups of people for attack or defense. It is called Bai Zhen (setting up matrix).

Ba Gua is equivalent to 8 directions or 4 fronts (Si Zhen) and 4 corners (Si Yu).

There are more.

Peace.

:D

[SPJ]

There are many legends.

There was a Daoist scholar.

He arranged the trails in the plum flower (Mei Hua) garden with a Ba Gua Zhen (matrix).

Unless you have a clue.

You will always end up where your start, no matter which direction you embark on.


:D

[SPJ]

Not surprised.

If you are guided to walk in a Ba Gua circle with the directions of Bai Bu and Kou Bu.



:cool:

[Andy62]

Science is starting to get into this whole realm of mind and mysticism. There is a new field of study called "Quantum Physics" which is the study of the relationship of the mind to the universe.

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by Andy62
Science is starting to get into this whole realm of mind and mysticism. There is a new field of study called "Quantum Physics" which is the study of the relationship of the mind to the universe.

Uh...actually Quantum Physics is the study of physics on the subatomic level.

[Andy62]

That could be defined as the same thing.

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by Andy62
That could be defined as the same thing.

How so?

[Andy62]

As the great British Physicist Sir James Jeans said, " the more we look at the universe the more it looks like mind." The mind would certainly be sub-atomic. Atoms are matter although very small matter where the mind is ethereal and not matter-it is more energy.

[SPJ]

Master Liu's writing about Buddhism and Kung Fu.

http://www.bodymindharmony.com/GMWORDS.HTM

:cool:

[SPJ]

Buddhism started 2500 years ago in India.

It spread to China over 2000 years ago.

Da Mo allegedly visited China and started Chan sect 1500 years ago in Shaolin.

Chan/Zen Buddhism is the largest religion in the world.

Zen and Buddhism started to emerge in US during last century.

There are Zen centers in every US major city.

It is believed to be the fastest growing practices in the States.

[SPJ]

Kung Fu is a name made popular by David Carradine TV series in the 1970's.

The proper name is Wu Yi, Wu Shu or Wu Xue.

If you have a good skill, you have Gong Fu.

Any skills that take time and practice to perfect are called Gong Fu.

Something takes time. We say it take Gong Fu.

Chan meditation, Daoist meditation and Qi Gong practices for health and fitness.

They are integrated with CMA practices and studies.

Life philosophies are rooted with the practices of Gong Fu.

In short, Kung Fu is not only about learning how to fight.

Together with Chan or Daoist meditation. Kung Fu is about how to cultivate your mind and soul as well.

Of course, you may have your own belief or religion.

[SPJ]

Chan is about life and enlightenment.

You discover Chan in everthing in life.

You also may find your Chan in Kung Fu.

[David Jamieson]

Buddhism started 2500 years ago in India

The "Buddha", that is to say, teh Buddha Guatama was Nepalese.

From there, the concepts moved into and developed in India. Later, the mahayana school moved into China and abroad.

But the older forms of Buddhism (therevada) are found in Nepal and Tibet.

Chan is a sect of buddhism that sprang up at Shaolin temple and so, that form of Buddhism, from a pure border perspective, is Chinese in origin.

But then, many people know nothing of the CHinese practice of Ch'an and more readily understand the idea of the Japanese Zen.

It is probably best to not associate buddhism with a nation though in the end. Its a practice and way of life that anyone of any religion can ake part in.

All they need to recognize is the 4 noble truths.
All they need to practice is the 8 fold path.

the 4 and the 8 fit with pretty much any other morality lessons in my opinion ergo making buddhist philosophy accessable to any and all persona who practiecs some other form of religiosity.

[Simhanada]

Vajrayana is the Tibetan Buddhist School, as a branch of Mahayana, not Theravada.

[David Jamieson]

my apols for not being clear.

tibetan buddhism is pretty much recognized as being developed in isolation from the lesser and great vehicles.

I am not certain it is correct to call it a branch of mahayana. It is probably more apropo to let it be known as Tibetan buddhism.

It is also likely that it developed from a little of both. The original therevada and the migrant mahayana.

Tibetan buddhism is definitely unique in many aspects when held to the other practices involving religious buddhism.

Because tibet abuts nepal, it is likely that it was carried into Tibet very early on. It is hard to say from this that it is a sect of mahayana which came much later than tibetan exposure to buddhist teachings.

hence my comment about Tibetan being closer to the old style than the later mahayana.

nowadays, there is a trend towards the term "modern buddhism".
There is not so much focus on the school as there is on the core teachings. In my opinion, this is a better way to take buddhism into the future.

after all, we are in teh back half of buddhism now, as teh buddha said it will only be extant for 5000 years after which it will have served it's purpose and no longer be of any use. :)

[Simhanada]

Thats OK

Theravada, which is the only early surviving Buddhist school - there were many others, did attempt establishment in Tibet but failed. So too did non-Tantric Mahayana. This too failed. This is well known in Buddhism. Vajrayana is a special part of Mahayana.

It gets confusing. Vajrayana is the 'third turning of the wheel of dharma'.

Hinayana (Theravada) is the so called 'lesser vehicle' (First Turning) Mahayana the 'greater vehicle' (Second Turning) Vajrayana the diamond indestructable vehicle - the Third...

Vajrayana is certainly different from the generality of 'Mahayana' but shares certain things in common which are absent in Theravada (Hinayana).

Vajrayana is influenced by Hindu Tantra, Bon-Po Shamanism and by Mahayana.

Its as difficult to define in direct terms as Chinese martial arts:)

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by Kairo
Do practitioners of both these disciplines exist here?

If so, could you please tell me what you think about the relative benefits they offer each other, or point me to somewhere that may explain this?

Thank you.

I am a practioner of both. A side effect of the two is abilities that are above normal. The Buddhist call it psychic powers. This could be demonstrated in something as simple as breaking a 1 inch board with your fist (the average person can't do this without hurting their hand), to breaking the board using concentration alone (without touching it).

Buddhism teaches a code of moral conduct and self-discipline. These things are required to be an appreciated Kung fu master.

Do you have specific questions?

[canglong]

the void, Nameless, Tao (http://taosculture.org/English/History/whatistao.htm)

[SPJ]

Cool link.

:cool:

[SimonM]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

But the older forms of Buddhism (therevada) are found in Nepal and Tibet.
.

I'm sorry but I will have to disagree with you on this point Kung Lek. Tibetan Buddhism is a third branch (other than Mahayana and "Foundational Buddhism" - of which Theravada is the only surviving sect) called Vajrayana (meaning Diamond or Thunderbolt vehicle). This path is considered to be more closely related to Mahayana than to Foundational Buddhism because it venerates Bodhisattvas more than Arhats.

[SimonM]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 3 and 3 becomes the 10,000 things.


Laotzu - Tao Te Ching (Dedaojing).

But Laotzu is not all of Taoism. ;)

[SimonM]

I was doing some random reading in an old book I found around my house and I came across a few quotes that really help to clarify the relationship between Buddhism and Kung Fu.

Note - this is specifically about Ch'an/Zen Buddhism but we should remember the Shaolin are a Ch'an orde.

All quotes are from "Oriental Philosophies by John M. Koller. It was published by Charles Scribner's Sons in 1970.


This discipline {zazen} requires assuming complete control and regulation of the hands, feet, legs, arm, trunk and head. Next breathing must be regulated so that the activities of the mind can be brought under control. Through a series of special forms of concentration the emotions and volitions are brought under control and harmonized with intellect. Having attained the foregoing, it remains to cultivate what is usually called a deep or profound silencce in the deepest recesses of one's being.

You can see how the practice of Kung Fu can be used as a form of zazen practice through this quote.


Zen emphasizes the integrity and completeness of the present moment of experience wherein there is no distinction between subject and object.

Clear examples exist of this in push-hands where harmony with the partner is emphasized over a brute application of force. In a more abstract sense, one can also refer back to the idea of complete body control in the previous quote. If there is no distinction between subject and object (self and other) than physical control of the self and physical control of the other is one and the same.

Now when you consider the material conditions of out-of-shape monks that Bodidharma encountered when he entered China you can see why physical exertion may be a beneficial aspect; incorporating a physical fitness regimen into a form of meditation.

Finally, consider the reality of life in medaeval China. With many mountain ranges, parts of China could be quite isolated. In the hinterlands bandits and dangerous animals occured with regularity. Buddhism is a missionary religion; if it was not it would never have extended to China from Nepal and India. If the physical fitness regimen that doubles as meditation also allows monks to defend themselves at need than it makes the exercise all the more valuable.

In the modern period bandits and animal attacks are not the threat they once were. However exercise is still important, zazen is still part of Ch'an Buddhist practice, Kung Fu thus still serves important roles for the Buddhist.