Is Wing Chun effective against trained fighters

[Dragon Warrior]

I know that WC is effective against street fighters that turn their backs and back up off balance, etc. But how effective is WC against a boxer, kickboxer, wrestler, or a fighter of any martial art.

How can WC be effective when someone is using angles and circles to keep the WC fighter from attaining his range. And if the WC fighter attains the range he wants, it could be quite easy to clinch and neutaralize his attack.

WC guys please respond.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

[EARTH DRAGON]

good question, Ive always thought of wing chun as a less effective stlye compared to may otherswith their straight on attacks and akward footwork, however I have seen some good wing chun stylits rip apart some tiger stylists defenses, so Im going to say it depends upon the individual! some people say whould would win a karate fighter or a kung fu fighter? the answer always is.............
.........who ever trained harder!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sharky]

the footwork isn't awkward at all. i don't know what all the fuss is about concerning the footwork in wing chun.

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[OdderMensch]

its designed to be effective against trained atackers.

I once spoke with a "kempo" guy who laimed that kempo was not meant to be used against a trained opponent, I left thinking "man thats polar oposite of WC."

note to JWT and other kempoists, I think this guy may have been wrong as far as kempo is concerned.

remember our "range" is contact, in order to keep out of our range you must keep out of contact, (and even a bit ****her if th WC guy is feeling fiesty :D )

Circleing, angleing, clinching I am training to deal with all of them. Clinching, yup. I train to defend agaist a clinch and train to end a fight at the clinch if needed.

takedown I train to stop them, ground fighting, yep train that too.

Boxers, ducking out jabbing at a distance, close in hooks and upercuts, yep, yep and yep.

against an untrained figher chain punching should do. The sticking, footwork, fak saus and bongs are for the skilled foe.

Any art trained well should be able to take on any art trained to mediocracy.

If you have trained well, if you have confedence in your Kung Fu, and if you have learned from your experiences, WC has all you need.

If you train half assed, if you lack confedence in your self or your art, and if you are ignorant of the world around you, well you know the rest.

**** I hate seeing these posts first, I answer before other, wiser, Kung Fu brothers get a chance, oh well.

[Anarcho]

Wing Chun practitioners have entered and won in kickboxing competition. In fact, one of AbMan's kung fu brothers recently won his match in a Sydney tournament. You'd probably get more info if you posted this on the WC forum. Is your style effective against trained fighters?

[Sihing73]

Hello Dragon Warrior,

You ask how effective Wing Chun is against other fighter yet you seem to have a low regard for street fighters. I find that a bit confusing as there are plenty of examples of "trained" fighters getting their butt handed to them by "untrained" streetfighters. ;)

Wing Chun, like any other art, is only as effective as the person doing it. If one trains hard and understands teh concepts behidn teh system then it can be quite effective against other systems. Conversly, if one only has a superficial understanding of the system then one will perform poorly. There are several fine examples of Wing Chun people who have entered competitions and won or done quite well against other systems. Names like Rick Spain, Alf Delbroco(sp?) Wong Sheung Leung (:p), Emin Boztepe and others too numerous to mention. However, there are also plenty of examples of Wing Chun people who did quite poorly against others too.

Do you honestly belive that Wing Chun does not ahve or is incapable of using angles and circles? Perhaps you belive that Wing Chun only attacks in a straight line using Chain Punches :D. I can assure you that Wing Chun, at least as I learned it, has side stepping, circle stepping and methods of entering to cut an opponents angle of attack. As to teh issue or range, I like to be close to my opponent. While there is a danger of someone "clinching" with me, it is also quite possible that my level of sensitivity will make such an attempt painful, for the opponent.

As in anything a lot will depend on your level of skill. Not all boxers can box nor can all wrestlers wrestle. Deep wasn't it :cool:

FWIW I currently teach a class where the highest ranking student is a 5th degree black belt and most of the others are no lower than second degree. One of my former students was a Shodan in Shotokan with two years of another Wing Chun lineage when he came to me. Although a lot bigger than I, he would tell you I could deliver. I am by far from being the best or even, perhaps, a good example of a competent Wing Chun man. there are plenty much better than I. I have, while a 4th student grade in Wing Tsun sparred with and defeated a 3rd dan in Goju. I represented the Army and he represented the Navy.

What it all boils down to is how hard you want to train and how much effort you put into learning. If you work hard then you can make just about anything work for you.

IMHO Wing Chun can be VERY effective against other martial artists. I also don't know very many "streetfighters" worth anything who turn their backs and back away. More likely they will use a weapon against you which raises the stakes even more.

Peace,

Dave

[Dragon Warrior]

i have noticed that the WC system is 100% theory. It is a soft system that uses linear techniques. But i dont understand why WC does this. Hooks and roundhouse kicks are so effective. Why totally disregard them??

Sihing, you are right, many streetfighter are good, and can beat the **** out of trained martial artist. But im talking about good martial artist, and good WC guys in general.

Also, a lot of streetfighters turn their backs as soon as they get hit with one soft punch. All you have to do is rush them with some punches and kicks and many will turn their backs right away.


I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

[Sihing73]

Hello Dragon Warrior,

Wing Chun has hooks in it. Just look to the forms. The hook is a very efficient tight movement and you can find it in the Biu Tze, although the seed for it can be found in the Chum Kui. As to roundhouse kicks I would have to say there are more efficient methods of delivery a kick and more direct. However, there may very well be lineages which have a roundhouse or similiar type of kick in their system. Remember there are more than one family of Wing Chun.

Wing Chun is theory in application. It's methods have been put into practice over a number of years. It is more of a working laboratory where one can test out there understanding of different concepts and techniques.

Not too sure about the "soft" punch. When Sifu Kernsprecht hit me it sure didn't feel SOFT :D

Peace,

Dave

[Watchman]

I like the "working laboratory" metaphor.

[CerberusXXL]

Hooks and roundhouse movement are circular movement which go against the principle of wing chun which says the fastest way to your target is a straight line.

Hooks punch are easily blocked.

Roundhouse kicks I have to say that there is two sides to it. A high roundhouse is easily blocked by someone trained in wing chun for at least a year. A low roundhouse kicks aimed at breaking one's shin is a different matter.

[dzu]

Sometimes the shortest distance between two points is NOT a straight line. Sometimes the way is blocked and the circular route is more efficient.

WC uses geometries of the human body and is not just limited to linear methods. There are circles, triangles, straight lines, curved lines, spirals, pyramids, trapezoids, etc. Just because the circle is not seen does not mean it isn't there.

Dzu

[Martial Joe]

If wing chun is done correctly it will tear things to shreds...

That is all I have to say...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[rogue]

How many of you, besides Watchman, actually have sparred or fought with other stylists? I want to hear from personal experience and not about your brothers friends cousin.

I hear a lot of talk about how WC was made to beat TKD and how hooks are easy to block and about counters to BJJ takedowns, but it sounds like theory. Anyone here work on a regular basis with other styles?

Sorry to sound cranky but it's been a long day at work.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I have sparred other styles but usually ended up getting disqualified. They say I don't fight fair :D.

I have sparred and even ended up helping to teach a Wing Chun class to the senior students at a Kenpo school. I have sparred against a Goju stylist while in the military as well as with a ****o Ryu and Jujitsu guy in Bloomsburg who I introduced to Wing Chun. He thought enough of it to start learning Wing Chun and now teaches under Randy Williams.

I currently teach at a Karate school just outside of Trenton. The head instructor of the school, a 5th dan takes my class as does his assistant instructor a 3rd dan and about 8-10 of his black belts. The range from 2nd dan and down. Although I have not sparred these guys per se I don't think they would argue that my method is effective.

Listen, I have said this before and will say it again, it is not so much the art as the person practicing the art. If you train to fight you will be able to fight. If you train for sport you will fight from that standpoint. I think that there are a lot of people with a false sense of security who need to get hit a few times to wake up. Still, I am hardly the best out there so maybe I need ot wake up too ;) .

Peace,

Dave
BTW: There are plenty of Wing Chun guys who would eat me for breakfast so I am fairly confident our art can spar well against others. I also disagree that hooks are easy to block they can be quite effective if performed properly. Or ocurse, they are hardly indefensible either.

[OdderMensch]

well maybe a little ;)

dzu, correct me but a straight line is by defenition, the shortest distance between to points. this is fairly standard geometry here. Now that does not mean its always fastest to travel in a straight line, as Murphey said "the easy way is always mined" but control of this space is vital to WC's offense.
other than this trite and picky point I agree with everything you said :D

Rouge, well its by the same teacher but I "touch hands" with 7* praying mantis on a regular basis. I hope to expand my experince against other style soon, when i'm ready.
people in my kwoon have spared with everything from Karate to kempo, San Shou to streetthugs to Eagle Claw, and come out mostly unscathed, and confedent in the system as we learn it, my time is, I hope, soon.

[aelward]

I am in complete agreement with SH73, that the art is only as good as the artist. If you go out and train regularly against other styles, and you have a brain to learn from your mistakes, then you will be better at fighting against other stylists.

Although I don't spar nearly as much as I did when I was younger and stupider, I still regularly cross train in other styles, not to integrate into my WC, but rather to find out how the theory that we have all been talking about applies against these other arts.

It is because of all this theory that I don't believe there is such a thing as "our (wc practitioner's) range;" the principles apply at all ranges. Of course, our forte is probably in-fighting; but if you actively train at distance fighting, practice closing range, and intercepting as your opponent attempts to close, then you are on your way.

I also think that WC is BETTER at taking on other styles, namely because they are systemized and more predictable. A person who has no training won't be thinking about combinations, parrying, etc; while a real streetfighter, that is, someone who regularly goes out and pounds people's faces into the ground for a hobby, has enough experience to be a far more deadly opponent than a trained-stylist.

Last word. regarding hooks, tight boxing hooks, they are NOT easy to stop.

JK-
"Sex on TV doesn't hurt unless you fall off."

[jai fuj]

i've sparred other styles, while at school i made some friends and we used to get together every so often and pound on each other. i was less experienced at the time, but i managed to do well enough to feel good about myself and my wc against my friends (1 did long fist and judo for like 5 years and the other has been doing MA for around 10 years, lots of experience, but has been doing ba gua for a year). the more i trained in and out of wc class the more comfortable i became. so i agree w/ sh73 that it depends on how much and how hard you train.

[Steven T. Richards]

This question of which is faster round lines or straight, is a very moot point. The 'shorter distance between two points being a straight line' arguement is so much of a cliche these days that people mix up distance with speed as if they where the same thing.

The shorter path will only be quicker if the velocity of the straight line is the same as that of the curve or faster. If the velocity of the curved path is sufficiently higher then the speed will be greater even if the distance over the arc is longer.

It's not just about velocity either.It's about what you see or don't see.

Anyone who has had enough real street fights will realise that the visual environment becomes very small and cluttered quite unlike standing off, posturing and exchanging ritualised or stylised geometrical movements with one another.

Round line combinations can come into the visual field with such speed and therefore momentum (as in force equals mass times acceleration f=ma) that they are only detected (if at all) when it is way, way too late.

Real fights are seldom about just straight or curved paths, they are about both, often at the same time, often in combination, and the added dimensions of 'timing'and 'psychology' mix the computation up even more.

One of my pai is Wing-Chun (although not my main one) and over the years one thing that has 'struck me' - forgive the pun please - is the effect of a systems principles or dogma on how the practitioner thinks about combat.

In Wing-Chun's case they do certain things so very well that they sometimes adopt an almost trance-state belief (predicated on the 'suggestion' of the systems principles and some of its teachers) that round lines MUST be slower or that hooking attacks MUST be easy to stop. After all, if they were any good surely they'd be part of the staple technical armoury of wing-Chun, and they aren't are they, so they are slow and ineffective. Q.E.D. .....

Wing-Chun works extremely well against Wing-Chun - which is common enough for most styles - they usually structure their geometry and principles against themselves.

Wing-Chun's defenecs against hooking or other round line attacks and combinations are IMHO and my pureley subjective and therefore very, very limited experienece, severely weakened because Wing-Chun people seldom know how to hook properly themselves - spending a lot of reflex argumenet time simply stating that they don't work - on what are effectively dogmatic grounds.

It would after all be very inconvenient to fully admit to the power and mechanical efficiency of hooks when they don't figure to any meaningful extent in the styles make up.

If Wing-Chun practitioners wouldtrain hooks - not to fail (predicatably) against their straight line structures, but instead train hooks to overcome their own system - train to beat themselves in other words, then they would have a healthy respect for the different mechanics and philosophies involved, and, maybe even start to question the wisdom of excluding them altogether from the style.

But that would be an excommunication offence for some....

Best Regards,

Steve Richards.

[Gluteus Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...while a real streetfighter, that is, someone who regularly goes out and pounds people's faces into the ground for a hobby, has enough experience to be a far more deadly opponent than a trained-stylist.
[/quote]

I agree that streetfighters can be tough opponents. However, I think their fightings "skills" are generally given more credit than they deserve. What do they generally have in their favour in a fight? Aggression, strength, confidence and a few techniques. A well-trained Wing Chun stylist of intermediate to advanced level should be able to overcome these factors provided his will to win is strong enough. Match his aggression with your own. Your Wing Chun skill is your strength, be confident in yourself and your system and let your long hard years of training take over.

Max

Yooby Yoody

[Watchman]

#1. If you don't keep your teeth together and get punched in the jaw by a good boxer, you will bite off the tip of your tongue and swallow tooth fragments.

#2. If you catch a full force shin kick just below the hip by a guy from Laos who has been doing Muay Thai since he was six years old, you will get stomach cramps, begin to dry heave, and eventually puke after your adrenaline begins to wear off.

#3. Getting body locked by a 6'3", 235 lb. NHB fighter is a very disconcerting event.

#4. Hitting someone on the thick part of their forehead with the point of your elbow incorrectly will shoot sparks of pain up your arm and make your hand curl into a funny position.

#5. Trying to land a spade hand strike to someone's throat when you don't have the proper range will result in you getting your ring finger caught in his teeth and summarily broken.

#6. Always, and I mean ALWAYS, pull your toes back when you go to stomp someone's head into the floor so you don't break your big toe on his skull.

#7. Getting punched hard in the temple will make it hard for you to form coherent sentences for a short while. It also makes you suspect years later that your slightly sagging left eyelid is the result of nerve damage from said shot to temple.

#8. When someone is dumb enough to keep his earrings in during a fight, it's funny to punch him in the ear and knock them out.

#9. When you get your knuckle cut on someone's teeth in the process of laying them out and don't clean the wound, your hand will swell up to twice it's size and you will have to go get a tetanus shot.

#10. And last but not least, when you begin to enjoy the taste of your own blood in your mouth you know it's time to take a break for a while and get some meditation practice in.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparations against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[Sharky]

i have sparred karate and tkd and wing chunners, never grapplers though :(

Good work watchman.

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[Sharky]

and if you think hooks are easy to block, then you haven't had a proper hook thrown at you.

Don't try to "block" a hook. Think about it man.

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[Gluteus Maximus]

Watchman, thanks for sharing those "working laboratory" results. LOL. You sound like a mess but I'd hate to see the other guy. :D

Max

Yooby Yoody

[TjD]

i think the major point to be made about the straight line thing is that wing chun takes the shortest round from point a to point b; this is a straight line; however a straight line isnt always a chain punch. the straight line would be from where my fist (or whatever weapon i want to hit you with) is, to your body :)

the straight line isnt always the center of my chest to the center of your chest - thats only the centerline

peace
trav

Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

[Steven T. Richards]

In a flat Euclidian geometric plane the shortest distance between two points (a) & (b) is indeed a straight line. However, shortest is not always fastest, as well as linear (a) to (b) speed there is also the question of rapidly changing relative position and movement, and the problem of something being 'in the way' of the straight line path (a) to (b).

It would be great if things were so simple the cliched 'shortest distance = straight line' but they aren't most of the time, they are of course in comfort zone compliant training geometry, but that's a product of group suggestion.

Sincerely,

Steve Richards.

[rogue]

Okay guys, read Watchmans post. He's not talking about Wing Chun shoulds, woulds and coulds but about personal experience, something lacking in most for MA. He's talking about getting hurt

I've been wondering, with WC being very conceptual and theoretical if many WC players fall into a certain false sense of what works without actually trying it out, like writing formulas on a black board without ever going into the lab.

Straight vs Hook:

Good post Pai.

Sometimes going around something is the shortest distance between two points, just ask the French about the time the German army paid them a visit.

French Wing Chun (http://www.ifrance.com/letunnel/maginot-e.html)

"If you entrench yourself behind
strong fortifications, you compel the enemy
to seek a solution elsewhere."
CLAUSEWITZ


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[Sharky]

so rest assured that, your style *IS* indeed better than ours ;)

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[Anarcho]

Given that space-time is curved in the presence of a gravitational field, and given that we're in a strong gravitational field, the shortest distance between two points is a curve. So there.

"Hooks punch are easily blocked."

Yeah, with your head.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Sharkey,

Whose stlye is better than whose? and whom did you address your post too?

Please accept my sincere apology if I've misunderstood you, but I make absolutely no certain or objective claim that my 'style' is any better than anyone elses' beyond the limitations of my ability to understand - which are as profound as anyone's, and very limited, personal and subjective experience.

As I say, if I've got this wrong then deepest apologies.

Sincerely,

Steve Richards.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Rouge,

Brilliant post!

and you Anarcho!

Steve.

[rogue]

In answer to the threads question, is a qualified yes, if the WC guy has trained well. And how do I know this? I know this from the experiences I've had sparring with some WC players.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[whippinghand]

Wing Chun is not very effective at all. In fact, it is an inferior art, and does not justify itself as a martial art.

So, now that that's out of the way, get lost, go train, 'cause obviously you need it. You obviously do not train Wing Chun. You don't understand what you yourself do, and therefore cannot understand what we do.

[tiger_1]

wi.hands dnt be mad ... wing chun wing chun ... must see good inside ... wing chun with good intonjustu is allmoust imposible to lose , more of opponent for onthers kung fu styles for onther martial arts dnt nide to talking .... just friendly tiger_1 ;)

/

[Dragon Warrior]

First of all i do understand what i do.

And no, i dont train Wing Chun, but i have seen it and fought Wing Chun guys.

Im just asking a couple questions about the systems.

Let me give you some advice.

When you dont argree with a statement
1. dont take it personnaly
2. Dont attack the person that said the statement.
3. Explain why you dont agree with the statement, and then argue against it.
4. Keep an open mind, and make sure everything you say is logical.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

[rogue]

Ironic that Whipping Hands profile states, "York University graduate in Psychology. Pursuing a Philosphy degree."

Back to the question at hand.
Let's turn the question a little, has Wing Chun become overly specialized?

With WC being so good at the range that's in close but still outside of grappling range ( :confused: ), that maybe other parts of the system have been ignored?

This is an intentionally broad statement for the sake of discussion.

Also, do any of you WC fellows think that the system may be shrinking, not watered down, because students starting schools before they've learned the system and tested and proven it against other fighters?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[whippinghand]

Thinking first is a preventitive measure for stupid questions.

[Dragon Warrior]

So asking a WC stylist how he uses his system against a fighter trained in keeping the WC fighter out of his range by using grappling, and angles is a stupid question.

Hmmmmmmmmm. I would think that someone with 10yrs of experience would be a little bit less insecure of his system.

I did not mean to insult anybody with my questions. I was just thinking about the topic, that's all. Sorry if anyone took what i said personnally, but if you did, that is your own fault. Learn how to debate, without any emotion involved.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Relax smell the flowers :) Breath and return to teh question at hand rather than trade senseless banter back and forth.

We now return to the subject of the topic..........er, at least I hope :D

Peace,

Dave

[BeiKongHui]

I've sparred against bjj, Muay Thai, Wrestlers, karate, JKD, kung fu, MMA and others. Wing Chun has everything it needs to go against practioners of these styles. It is only limited by the creativity and experience of the artist. Angles and circling are not problems as I've been known to use them myself. As for being in range if I can hit them, kick them, etc. then I'm in range. As for the clinch, I love fighting in the clinch. This is perfect distance for short range power shots and rib snapping hooks as well as knees or elbows.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[hunt1]

Dragon,the problem with WC is that most of those who teach /train in it dont know how/understand how to use it.My range is the same as anyone else's.If you keep out of my range i am out of your range.Wc trains everything from a no contact range to up close and personnal.
as for a clinch i love it.that is where time doing chi sao comes out.Nothing better than being grabbed.

[whippinghand]

You should re-examine that. I think your limitedness would best be suited for the JKD forum, you might want to check it out, if you haven't already.

[Dragon Warrior]

Good point, that is the problem with most systems.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.