Two beginner problems....

[Printer]

1st: Distance
Everytime I have to move into attack - I travel to far. Either we get jammed up or we clash. Any pointers to get past this would be helpful.

2nd: Afraid to punch
Everyone keeps telling me to punch at thier face. I already know how hard my puch is and everything I read and have been told says my punch is going to get even harder. I am new and am just now gaining some control. I am truly afraid to hurt someone by accident. Should it consern me or not?

[Martial Joe]

answer to #1...just train and try for goodn timing...
answer to #2...ask them if you can aim for there uper chest so just incase you do hit them they wont get a blow like it would be in the face...why would some one ask you to keep aiming for their face??

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[This message was edited by Martial Joe on 09-07-01 at 04:24 PM.]

[El_CLap]

Hmm...about the face thing. It's your job to hit them. It's their job to not get hit. Make them wear a mouthpiece. If you aren't really trying to hit them then you are really doing them a disservice if that is what they are asking for. Don't make people believe that they can stop a full force punch to the face if you aren't trying.

[Martial Joe]

El Clap basically ment punch him in the jaw and knock him on his anus...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[kj]

Don't know if I'm interpreting your scenario correctly or not. But unless their face is already in front of you and in your path, why would you want to change direction, aim or reach upward, probably create unnecessary weaknesses or holes in your own defenses, and go all the extra distance (and time) by angling up to punch their face? I highly recommend reviewing some of Dzu's posts regarding the value of disrupting the body structure. Just my hunch, but I'll bet there are some better opportunities presenting themselves, hidden in plain view. It's serendipitous if the opponent's head just happens to get in the way of your properly executed strike. Just my $.02 FWIW.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[lotus kick]

you should never try to hit there face, no matter how careful you are, you will eventully hurt them. If they ask you, ask them what their plan is before start aiming for the head.

As for the distance, if you get too close, just push them away to gain back the distance you lost.

[El_CLap]

Never try to hit the head? How are you fighting then? You will get hit and you will get hurt. That's part of the game. Get a mouthpiece.

[Vankuen]

What wing chun do you practice that you never aim for their face? I'll bet you don't ever make contact either? Where do you aim the kicks? Make sure not to kick at their legs! - You make break their knees!

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

[Scott]

I hate training partners who angle their punches away from me. I always ask the weaker partners to punch hard and actually punch at me--sometimes a good partner and I will hold our hands out and make sure that we are about an inch from hitting each other so that we can punch as hard as we want.

It's even better when the person warns you before hand then actually TRIES to hit you.

-Scott

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis

[dzu]

Is your own body. Your WC body structure is tailored to your height, physical bone structure, limb length, etc. If you have to stretch or extend your arm fully to hit someone, you're probabaly too far away or the height differential is too great. You might be able to reach the head, but you might not have the proper alignment to generate any power behind your strikes.

I have been training hard to not always seek out the head and always seek the openings presented to me. Taller opponents, or opponents with longer arms, remove the head from consideration unless you bring their head down to your own space so that your alignment is not sacrificed. Fixation on the head is as bad as fixation on the hands.

I would suggest practicing the punch using your body as a reference for targets (face, chest, etc.). If your partner is too tall think about other targets you can hit. If you are both the same height, but don't want to risk hitting the face accidentally, try slowing down the drill and/or punch at the chest. WOrk on your relaxation, timing, and positioning. Save the aggressive intentions for the wallbag or focus mitts.

Dzu

[whippinghand]

That's the easy stuff.... so why waste you're training time? How about training more difficult aspects, like striking to the body?

[lotus kick]

i throught that printer is refering to chi sau when he is talking about aiming for the head. If i was wrong, then i'm sorry.

Chi sau is not about fighting, it's about finding control. strikes to the head will only hurt you traiing partner.

[El_CLap]

Chi Sao is a drill, but you should still be trying to hit each other. Now you shouldn't be pounding beginners until they are ready to be pounded on, but still. All of your drills are fighting drills. As soon as the technique is learned correctly then it should be done against real intent. Maybe not completely full force, but enough to where it can still get through and you can still get popped.

[Vankuen]

I can see your statements relevance towards safety. This is true. It is very possible to make contact, and it very often does.

I do believe though...that it is something that for the most part if controlled. When someone gets hurt its usually because of lack of concentration of one or both partners.

But I guess it all depends on your priorities when it comes to training.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

[OdderMensch]

So it becomes a habit. Isn't not hitting to the head in training also training not to hit to the head?

Plus I like to practice stoping things from hitting my head. :)

On topic I did a drill last night with a partner how would not hit me, its frustrating! :mad: every shot was like two feet away.

kinda oposite of your first problem, Printer. :D

[melfid]

Hi,

I agree with OdderMensch. It is training bad habit.

I've seen a quote somewhere in the wc forum archive that goes, "Fight like your train, train like you fight"

Then again, most people are nice and considerate. This is a bad mentality during training. To be honest, this post made me think about it. In class, I'm guilty of constantly apologizing to my partner for 'hitting' them. Now I'm thinking, "Why should I apologize?" I mean, what is the intenion of a real agressor? He's at a point where he's commited to kicking your butt and I don't think he'll apologize. Can you imagine it? Sorry dude, I didn't mean to hurt you. Please hand over your wallet... Is this attitude helping my partner? Is it helping me?


We are all, most of us anyway, functional members of society. We implicitly recognize certain rules of behavoir, spatial zones and level of politeness. Otherwise what kind of society would we be in?

Is it not the teacher's responsibility to teach the intention to his/her students? Wait a minute - this has never come up in my school! I'll have to ask my teacher! <-- I'm NOT kidding.

How do you deal with that polite conditioning? I guess thats part of this thread. I'm curious - cos now I realize I'm a silent victim. Never been in a real fight, and now I worry about what I would do. Oh sorry mr attacker, I didn't mean to hit you. :(

Politely waiting to find out more,

Dan

"He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it."

[OdderMensch]

A bit ot, anyone ever listen to Bill Hicks?

As I am sure Sharky and the brits can attest to :rolleyes: he jokes about the "politeness" of crime in England.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I mean "holligans" I picture some thin pale guy in pennyloafers popin' you on the back of the head. "We're the holligans < pop > " Speak english, its krypts & bloods.[/quote]

I do the same thing, :).
< bam > oh sorry
< whap > opps my bad!

I agree with early posters about avoiding "headhunting" I think it comes down to being a good training partner, not beating them up, but reminding them of the threat form time to time.

[whippinghand]

I agree with hitting the body, but, like I said, to the head is easy, and not useful for chi sau.

[Roy D. Anthony]

When hitting to the head is done, far too often the student is open below. therefore bad habits are being learned. However there are many hidden benefits from training to hit at the center.
Once proficiency is learned, that is biu gee level or even up to Mook Jong Level, the student then has enough control to go for the head safely. This is when Head Shots are allowed in the Ip Man system.

[Sharky]

:rolleyes:

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[OdderMensch]

Printer is a beginer right?

many of our earliest drills involve strikeing the face and head, so I was talking outside of the concept of "chi sao"

If your sihing want you to hit to there face then do so. If you over pull your punchs, aim away from their face or attack meekly or poorly, you do them, and youself a disservice.

however

During chi sao, the hands find the opening so if you dont "hit" to the head, you do not train your partner to "plug" that hole. at the same time if you over extend you get hit, so you learn to plug your own holes as well.

[whippinghand]

Be proficient in hitting the centre, and you'll be proficient in hitting the head. The reverse is not true.

Use your training time wisely.
Wing Chun is for killing, not for fighting.

[sunkuen]

is a breeze,but controlling the centre and hitting the chest is much more difficult. :D