Wing Chun: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly

[Ultimatewingchun]

THE GOOD:


Great system that features a real yin and yang, hard and soft approach to fighting... and a simplicity and economy of motion...leading to some explosive and powerful close range strikes/kicks that primarily target vulnerable areas of the head, face, throat, temple, groin, knees, etc...while also teaching how to deflect and/or avoid the opponent's force and energy with moves that can unbalance and redirect his force and his body...very economical lines of attack coupled with some small circular blocks and redirections - along with a basically straight line triangular attack and defense strategy - which makes ingenious use of a centerline theory...vertical line running down the middle of WC practitioner's body and toward the center of the opponent's body (some wing chun systems also expand this theory into a wider centraline concept)...all of which fits neatly into a tightly structured six gate theory of defense with very economical straight (and therefore) fast lines of simultaneous (or near simultaneous) attack and defense with both hands/arms working together at all times...great training tool that cultivates close quarter contact reflexes (chi sao) as well as providing a platform to learn the basic and most fundamental moves in the system (beginning with - but not limited to - tan, bong, fuk)...limited and therefore practical use of just a few forms...and the first SLT form (along with chi sao and some chi gung breathing excercises) also providing a platform to cultivate a "practical" use of internal energy dynamics (chi)...which helps teach a very relaxed but whip-like approach to power and force generation...very useful and conservative approach to low line kicking from close range - therefore hard to stop because used judiciously...also features use of the legs to stop opponent's kicks...

as well as some personalities who HAVE proved the effectiveness of the system at various times through real combat (Yip Man, Bruce Lee and some notable others within the 20th century)...as well as some others before them (ie. - the Red Boat era), etc.

Good practical use of two weapons (Butterfly Swords and Long Pole)...other important training devices such as the Wooden Dummy and even iron palm training in some circles for stronger power generation and precision on the strikes...can also provide a practical approach (yin and yang...hard and soft) to a higher philosophy that tends to balance the use of force and energy with non-confrontational methods of solving problems...for the more thoughtful...etc...etc...

[old jong]

There is also "Wing Chun:For a fistful of dollars" but that's another story!...;)

Looking forward for the remaining bad and ugly!...;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Over reliance on the centerline theory can lead to a very predictable (and easily countered by outflanking and hooking around) attack of straight line chain punching....limited use of footwork (in most Wing Chun systems) that leave it's practitioners vulnerable to more modern, up-on-your-toes and mobile footwork...over reliance on short range striking/kicking/footwork patterns can lead to problems against a mobile long range striking/kicking attack...and the other side of the coin...those who are skilled at breaking through the short range striking and chin na arm locking wing chun range and into a fight in the clinch - along with various takedowns and groundgrappling that Wing Chun is not prepared to deal with (although wing chun does teach some sweeps and standing takedowns of it's own)...over reliance on CHI SAO as a training tool that becomes an end-all-and-be-all for FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THE WC WORLD...(even to the point of chi sao being the "main event" within wing chun tournaments and get-togethers)...

instead of REAL HARD CONTACT SPARRING...which serves to set almost the entire wing chun world on a path toward irrelevance regarding it's future as a MARTIAL art...and not an action chess game - as some think it is...not versatile and creative enough (in many circles)...to adapt some more circular strikes and kicks...some more mobile, evasive and elusive footwork and DELIVERY SYSTEMS - along with some longer range attacks...as well as some other fighting "methods" just alluded to for clinch and grappling ranges...

TOO MUCH chest beating of a very subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) nature that leads to illusions of false grandeur...one of the biggest being that in MANY (if not most) wing chun circles STRENGTHENING, CONDITIONING, STRETCHING, and the use of pads, mitts, shields, bags, etc. AS A MEANS OF DEVELOPING POWER ON THE STRIKES AND KICKS is downplayed...false claims based upon little or no real fighting/sparring against skilled resisting opponents of wing chun AND OTHER SYSTEMS...

over reliance on the exploits of Bruce Lee and one's sifu...or one's wing chun "ancestors" that amounts to little more than living VICARIOUSLY...trying to ride the wave that others may (or may not) have created...without having to do the REAL HARD WORK themselves...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ridiculous claims made back in the 70's by Leung Ting that he was Yip Man's final disciple and apparent heir...And in the 80's - William Cheung not offering what is clearly a different system than what Yip man taught publicly...not offering it up to his peers GRATIS...instead making the claim that HE was Yip Man's apparent heir..and that everybody else now had to agree that he was the one and only Grandmaster...without adequately explaining exactly where TWC came from...the HFY people - notably Garrett Gee and Benny Meng - doing a very similar thing in the 90's...but with a new twist...saying that HFY is the ONLY wing chun system that can trace it's roots back to the Shaolin temple - without offering any real proof either...Emin Boztepe's attack on William Cheung in Germany in 1986 after surrounding him with about a 1/2 dozen of his friends...the incidents in my school and Andrew Draheim's school (literally five feet away from each other) in New York City in 1996 - wherein I was arrested for assault - and had to hire a lawyer and appear in court 5 times...and last but not least (in my mind, anyway)...the ugly shouting match on a thread this past summer mostly between myself and Dhira (KenWingJitsu)...concerning Boztepe possibly fighting TWC's Keith Mazza.

I'm sorry it happened.

But in the final analysis....I believe that Wing Chun is a great fighting system whose exponents and lineages need to spend more time getting together for real sparring tournaments...wherein participants shake hands before and after the matches...learn from each other...sort out what works and what doesn't work...regardless of which WC system it came from...

and then do some crosstraining and send a bunch of guys out into the world of MMA events to kick some a$$.

[mortal]

I don't remember the last time I read a post and agreed with every part of it.

Good posts.

[SAAMAG]

Yep...that about sums it up.

[Ernie]

Insert smug sarcastic voice

[well that might be true for your wing chun, but not all wing chun is created equal, and I know people and my sifu says, and if you really traced the roots back to the wing chun cave man you would see and I don’t care because my sifu can fly, um I have never seen him do it but he is God reincarnated so he must be able to fly, and it’s all because he localized his chi during SLT,,,,,,,,, so there , now let me get right up here in my arm chair and point my finger at you buddy ]


Way to real for the masses Victor!
:D

but I liked it ;)

[duende]

Victor,

HFY has always publicly stated that all Wing Chun comes from Shaolin. Whether it be via Ng Mui or their own lineage history. In MKF we even write about Chi Sim's Shaolin history.

So obviously your ugly post is incorrect.

If you ever get a chance to read the TWC section on the HFY108 site, you will also find alot of posts regarding TWC's Shaolin connection in particular.

Regarding our similarities... we've already been down that road before.

And you have yet to actually experienced both TWC and HFY firsthand.

Many other TWC practioners have, and do not hold the same views you do.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"So obviously your ugly post is incorrect."

Well...I was expecting something like this...but I really don't care anymore.

It doesn't change anything.

People know what happened back in the 90's...and what impression was intended.

Just come to the tournaments WHEN THEY FINALLY EMERGE...take part...or just watch - and leave with some new and important insights.

In the end that's all that matters.


As to the rest of you who've posted so far...thanks!

[yellowpikachu]

Do you know where you¡¦re going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you
Where are you going to?
Do you know...?

Do you get
What you¡¦re hoping for
When you look behind you
There¡¦s no open door
What are you hoping for?
Do you know...?

Once we were standing still in time
Chasing the fantasies
That filled our minds
You knew how I loved you
But my spirit was free
Laughin¡¦ at the questions
That you once asked of me

Do you know where you¡¦re going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you
Where are you going to?
Do you know...?

Now looking back at all we¡¦ve planned
We let so many dreams
Just slip through our hands
Why must we wait so long
Before we¡¦ll see
How sad the answers
To those questions can be

Do you know where you¡¦re going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you
Where are you going to?
Do you know...?

Do you get
What you¡¦re hoping for
When you look behind you
There¡¦s no open door
What are you hoping for?
Do you know...?

[RedJunkRebel]

Thanks for your thoughts, Victor. I enjoyed reading.

[canglong]

Parlati Sifu,
You would appear to have more of a direct connection to the "ugly" than most so it is hard to criticize you as you reflect in the mirror but it is easier to stand at the pulpit and look nice than it is to deliver words of meaningful intent or moreover actions of inegrity, so what have you done for Wing Chun in the last 29 years that wasn't "ugly"?

[anerlich]

Well...I was expecting something like this...but I really don't care anymore.

'twas as predictable as gravity, Victor, I'm just surprised it took as long as it did.

[anerlich]

You would appear to have more of a direct connection to the "ugly" than most

Don't sell *yourself* short, Tony.

[canglong]

Not to worry Andrew you are still in the running for the Down under version.

[duende]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"So obviously your ugly post is incorrect."

Well...I was expecting something like this...but I really don't care anymore.


Well... If you don't care anymore, then why did you make such a post in the first place. Maybe because you were expecting this???


just plain silly attacks Victor...

[PaulH]

Ha! Ha! I got to hand it down to Ole Man Hendrik. He does not get tired singing. He keep singing along... And yes I do know where am going. I'm driving to see my family for the next two hours. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving, guys! =)

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's enough blame to go around...guys.

I just want to see WING CHUN...as a totality...take it's rightful place in the martial arts world of today.

And by that I mean as a FIGHTING art that commands respect everywhere within the martial arts world.

Hence my interest in making it more competitive against the highly skilled boxers, kickboxers,Thai boxers, BJJ fighters, wrestlers...whoever...that are out there at the present time and dominating virtually the entire martial art scene.

And I don't mean just publicity wise (ie.- UFC, Pride, K-1, etc.)...

but more importantly............FOR REAL.

The crosstraining...the tremendous conditioning...the invaluable fighting experience that many are engaging in under the cover of rules, regs, and referees...that results in an ongoing state-of-the-art evolution that gets more amazing to watch all the time (compare the early UFC events of 1993-94-95 to what's going on in UFC and Pride now, for example). This is REALLY close to reality fighting...and at an increasingly high level of Skill, Will, Strategy, and Technique.

I believe that Wing Chun has a tremendous amount to offer - and I would love to see it participate in the martial arts revolution of today...and really be a PLAYER.

What an incredible addition to the infight table Wing Chun could bring...but it has to do what's necessary to compete...as I alluded to in THE BAD post.

Just not interested in debating, arguing, calling each other names anymore...my lineage this...your lineage that. William Cheung this...Garrett Gee or Emin Boztepe that.

Valuable time lost...and completely counter-productive to the task at hand.

I said what I said...you guys want to strike back with all sorts of whatever...go ahead.

I'll take the shots with little more response than what I'm doing now.

Get it out of your system. Take the last word - if you want.

But I'm only willing to talk about what it's going to take...(imo)...to make the whole Wing Chun "thing" better.

Lookin' ahead. Only ahead.

The past is yesterday.

[canglong]

I just want to see WING CHUN...as a totality...take it's rightful place in the martial arts world of today. After all the times you suggested it's the person not the system does that no longer apply.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
There's enough blame to go around...guys.

I just want to see WING CHUN...as a totality...take it's rightful place in the martial arts world of today. ..........


But I'm only willing to talk about what it's going to take...(imo)... to make the whole Wing Chun "thing" better.

Lookin' ahead. Only ahead.

The past is yesterday.


That is an honest fair post.
How can any one blame on a honest post presenting one own's view? Cant.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by duende


HFY has always publicly stated that all Wing Chun comes from Shaolin. Whether it be via Ng Mui or their own lineage history. In MKF we even write about Chi Sim's Shaolin history.




When is MKF become a bible of Wing Chun?

Your Wing Chun doesnt represent mine. your training doesnt represent mine. Your story doesnt represent mine too. Sorry.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hendrik:

Okay - I appreciate this...

"That is an honest fair post.
How can any one blame on a honest post presenting one own's view? Cant. "


But there's no need to throw fuel upon the fire with this...


"When is MKF become a bible of Wing Chun?

Your Wing Chun doesnt represent mine. your training doesnt represent mine. Your story doesnt represent mine too. Sorry."


This kind of remark is a return to the past...in an attempt to troll out some response from the HFY guys. But this thread is meant to get past all of that and look towards a new tomorrow for Wing Chun as a Whole.

Do yourselves a favor...HFY guys...

and don't even respond to him.

HE'S BECOME A BIG WASTE OF TIME.

[duende]

Cool with me Victor...

Glad to see we still agree about somethings.


later

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Hendrik:

1, Okay - I appreciate this...

"That is an honest fair post.
How can any one blame on a honest post presenting one own's view? Cant. "


2, But there's no need to throw fuel upon the fire with this...


"When is MKF become a bible of Wing Chun?

Your Wing Chun doesnt represent mine. your training doesnt represent mine. Your story doesnt represent mine too. Sorry."


This kind of remark is a return to the past...in an attempt to troll out some response from the HFY guys. But this thread is meant to get past all of that and look towards a new tomorrow for Wing Chun as a Whole.

Do yourselves a favor...HFY guys...

and don't even respond to him.

HE'S BECOME A BIG WASTE OF TIME.


Victor,

1, I can have a totally different view with you or even different agenda or anything. But, if it is an honest work then I have to recognized it as honest and respect it. As the samurai spirit, one can be in opposition but we all are big enought to be able to recognized others greatness. That boil down to being honest.


2, you are right. there is no need to argue about this. my view is like this.

My point is simple that I dont agree with the person who make claim for ALL Wing Chun Kuen.

Certainly, my lineage of Wing Chun practice is hundred miles away from what one see in MKS.
And the writers of MKS has no CLUe about my lineage's art. So, I am here to disagree about the calim present which is not the fact at all for me.

Count it from 1, no broken arrow....


So, why should I take others fault claim about my lineage? That boil down to mutual respect.


Without honesty and mutual respect one will not be able to build trust for any true communication. IMHO. we can only live in NOW not past and future. and to live in Now for a whole, Mutual respect and honesty are keys. IMHO

[Vajramusti]

Hi Victor- I do not agree with you always- but it was a nice post- specially the part of the need for forgetting the past WT/TWC clashes.
joy

[Vajramusti]

Hi Victor- I do not agree with you always- but it was a nice post- specially the part of the need for forgetting the past WT/TWC clashes.
joy

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah...Joy...

It's time to move on.

[Vajramusti]

There are different wing chun origin stories-one can believe what they want to.

No one can claim the authority to speak for all of wing chun.

At thanksgiving time I for one am glad that the art has survived in different ways thus far.

[RedJunkRebel]

I too agree with putting the past behind us in order to move on to greater things for Wing Chun.

Ultimate - your post was good reading. It was nice to hear your thoughts. We all don't have to agree with those thoughts, however, I do believe we all need to agree that those "ugly" things that were done in the past need to be put behind us in order to make this great art even more powerful. That's what should be taken from this... not the things we disagree with.

[anerlich]

Not to worry Andrew you are still in the running for the Down under version.

Shucks. :o

[old jong]

This thread has to be considered as the personal perceptions of an idividual based on his own Wing Chun path and his preocupations on other styles and on a certain "image" to be projected on the internet.It also deals with commercial propaganda that any free mind should not be forced to believe in.This is not representing the point of view of the majority of the Wing Chun world.
To be considered with a grain of salt....Or a whole bag if you prefer!...;)

[Vajramusti]

Ultimatewingchun on yellowpikachu-

HE'S BECOME A BIG WASTE OF TIME.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An unfortunate and uncalled for remark. While yellowpikachu has his own style of communication- he fairly consistently and clearly
critiqued the HFY claims for the roots of all wing chun.
Those claims dont fit what Hendrik does or several other wing chun lines do.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Ultimatewingchun on yellowpikachu-

HE'S BECOME A BIG WASTE OF TIME.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An unfortunate and uncalled for remark. While yellowpikachu has his own style of communication- he fairly consistently and clearly
critiqued the HFY claims for the roots of all wing chun.
Those claims dont fit what Hendrik does or several other wing chun lines do.



this is easy to solve issue. as soon as those people stop to make claims for the roots of all wing chun and not expecting others to keep silence on the fault claims, issues solve.

No one is going to sit there and keep thier mouth shut to let others make claim and insult thier ancestors. people is going to leave record in public so that all the future WCners have a lead to check out what is going on.

So,

That is about mutual respect of others ancestors and lineage. dont claim for others where one has no clue. and there is no issue at all as soon as one respect others. dont do what one doesnt what to being done by others. if one dont want others to tear apart one's his-story. dont do false claim on others. One certainly can bring up discussion but not in the way of making claim.


BTW, different lineages has different teaching methodology and it will be great to let everyone present the teaching methodology and process while others can sit down learn and share . Very simple thing to solve lots of unnecessary energy drain if everyone like to go this way.


As Victor honestly speak his heart. In my opion, there are lots of work to be done for Wing Chun toward future from structure to power generation to even MMA. For me, Wing Chun Kuen is an Iterative model system. it has to get going because things change and training changes.

My view on the past is about one needs to know the past Iteration process and solution to iterate for the future. without knowing the process and solution it is easy to make the mistake of throwing the water and the baby in the same time. That is where lots of people mis-understand me.


just some thoughts

[canglong]

Parlati Sifu,
Moving forward is a good idea and hendrik trolling is true but Joy is another matter. We never see Joy aka the cheerleader question hendrik for making statements claiming that his white crane water palm is the origin of tan sau and modern day wing chun which could have easily made the ugly post not to mention hendrik's claims that Chi Sim Weng Chun is not wing chun at all his credentials for such statements being his ability to fill out the membership request for this forum. Joy are you jumping out on that limb as well or do you only care to open your mouth and send your erroneous comments in the direction of HFY. Speaking of what other wing chun lines do and don't do why did Augustine Fong change the Yip Man wooden dummy form. If your marker is the fact that others either do it or don't do it where are you scoring this one bad or ugly you just ruled out good.

[old jong]

Why did Augustine Fong change the Yip Man wooden dummy form.
He had his reasons and was totally entitled to do so.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by canglong
Parlati Sifu,
Moving forward is a good idea and hendrik trolling is true but Joy is another matter. ,,,,,,.


Canglong,

as i suggest before,

as for what is Wing Chun root and Localization Evolution and my credentials....ect,

get Gene of The KFO as the host, get KFO magazine to sponsor a Wing Chun Presentation meeting and let KFO published the event. Get the top guys of the China's martial art head man from Shao Lin, White Crane of Fujian, Wudang, Emei, TaiJi, yee Chuan, Shing Yee, chinese historian such as Chim Bo-Chi....etc
Tell me a date and I will be there to present similar to everyone else.


Let them judge everyone's presentation and draw conclusion.



Until then, lets learn about mutual respect not to make claim for others and move forward.


Note: about two years ago, in this forum, Andreas and me have an Agreement that we both not talk about others system in this forum which we both honor highly.

I would appreciate that you dont bring up Andreas system here or trying to stir something here between him and me.

[canglong]

Until then, lets learn about mutual respect not to make claim for others and move forward. hendrik,
You are the one that constantly and continuously post with a lack of respect, you post as if you and you alone are the only one that knows anything about wing chun then you evade all questions at all cost and then add this is not Shao lin that is not Shao lin " I had a dream about Shao lin" "this is not about monks killing Qing" and rarely do you speak of wing chun on a wing chun forum it is your own lack of respect when posting that earns you none.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by canglong


and rarely do you speak of wing chun on a wing chun forum it is your own lack of respect when posting that earns you none.


Thank you for your personal view.

what you see is not wing chun is wing chun for me and migh be for others.

[canglong]

get Gene of The KFO as the host, get KFO magazine to sponsor a Wing Chun Presentation meeting and let KFO published the event. Get the top guys of the China's martial art head man from Shao Lin, White Crane of Fujian, Wudang, Emei, TaiJi, yee Chuan, Shing Yee, chinese historian such as Chim Bo-Chi....etc Tell me a date and I will be there to present similar to everyone else.
The Ving Tsun Museum didn't wait on you I suggest you not wait on anyone else either. Their research has been done a book has been written with more in the works like it or not things are moving forward with or without you.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by canglong
The Ving Tsun Museum didn't wait on you I suggest you not wait on anyone else either.

Their research has been done a book has been written with more in the works like it or not things are moving forward with or without you.


Thank your for your suggestion


Ving TSun Museum certainly did a great job on presenting thier view.

writing a book presenting the family trees , content, process of training of the wing chun and Chan lineage which I belongs to are ordinary job others can do and they might even can do better then me. However, those people doesnt include the VTM since VTM dont know the WCK and Chan lineage which I practiced.


Presenting infront of the chinese headman of Shao Lin, Wudang, Emei, Taiji, White Crane of Fujian, Yee Chuan , Hsing Yee...and chinese historian Chin po-chi ..etc are fun meeting which I am looking forward to.

[canglong]

You are welcome.


Ving TSun Museum certainly did a great job on presenting thier view. The Museums presentations was an objective one.

Presenting infront of the chinese headman of Shao Lin, Wudang, Emei, Taiji, White Crane of Fujian, Yee Chuan , Hsing Yee...and chinese historian Chin po-chi ..etc are fun meeting which I am looking forward to. Right or wrong the experience would be priceless.

[martyg]

You are welcome.
The Museums presentations was an objective one.

That would depend on who you ask, others view it as subjective for various reasons. Take a poll on what people think and you're likely to see it pretty split, much like the recent election. You're a HFY person, so it's understandable why you feel the way you do.

I respect Benny and the museum for all the time, work and expense involved in all their research. I still consider him a friend. But even friends can disagree. At the end of the day though and based on my own experiences with the Friendship Seminars, I tend to agree with Hendrik - nobody can speak for all of wing chun or any other person other than themselves.



Speaking of what other wing chun lines do and don't do why did Augustine Fong change the Yip Man wooden dummy form. If your marker is the fact that others either do it or don't do it where are you scoring this one bad or ugly you just ruled out good.

Well, we could just ask why Yip Man consistently changed his mook jong form as well over the years. Yip's mook jong form (much like his wing chun) was a living, breathing entity. Leaving out the crosspolinization between students that's gone on since his death, about the only continuity in that form is usually in the first three sections. After that, choreography and organization can differ greatly. Saying statements that about Augustine changing the Yip Man wooden dummy form would denote that there's some sort of standard Yip Man Mook Jong Form (tm) to be changed in the first place. I haven't seen such a beast yet. To appreciate the depth of Yip Man's wing chun, I think you really have to look at and appreciate all his students over his entire life time.
Just as to appreciate wing chun as a whole, you have to look at it and appreciate it across it's entire spectrum.


As for Victor's original post that started this thread, it had some good points and bad points, including some contradictive ones. Saying statements about putting the past behind and then going on about Leung Ting doesn't exactly promote that view. I also thought his description of wing chun in the "good" part (the lines, the interaction, the forms) were descriptive of his own branch and experiences and not wing chun as a whole. Some branches have more than two weapons for example, or may view their geometry a bit differently. But I wouldn't take offense at it, because it's just a statement on his exposure. I think his intentions are good, however some here may disagree with his methods.


Marty




Watchful Dragon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[Vajramusti]

Response to Canglong's post:

Moving forward is a good idea and hendrik trolling is true but Joy is another matter.
((Really?!!))

We never see Joy aka the cheerleader
((Cheerleader is your own labelling. For now I will not respond in kind))

question hendrik for making statements claiming that his white crane water palm is the origin of tan sau

((That is hendrik's hypothesis. Accept, reject, ignore- different choices. I dont agree with everything that Hendrik says and disagree with him on some things. But I find some of his posts to be provocative.. I dont do Cho family wing chun- but I respect it. Same for YKS and Koolo. I regard hendrik in friendly terms but his social friendships are different from mine.BTW- Hendrik did not bring up HFY in this round- Victor did -in his reference to Meng-Gee claims. Hendrik was just responding to the duende reminder on HFY claims on Shaolin and HFY as opposed to "common" wing chun. So lets not make the thread fuzzier than it already is))

and modern day wing chun which could have easily made the ugly post not to mention hendrik's claims that Chi Sim Weng Chun is not wing chun
((Hendrik didnt say that on this thread. But for me I am persuaded by Ip Man's own statement that weng chun is different from wing chun. Lots of different styles out there. Confucius's advice on the need for redtification of names wont mean much in this context. Success has a thousand fathers and new grandmasters are likely to continue emerging))

at all his credentials for such statements being his ability to fill out the membership request for this forum.
((Same for anyone filling out a KFO form-grants no authority to you or anyone else.))

Joy are you jumping out on that limb as well or do you only care to open your mouth and send your erroneous comments in the direction of HFY.

((Are you talking to me? Rather impolitely at that. I really dont pay attention to your posts- but I am responsding because your rference to me caught my eye. I have exactly zero interest in HFY-I think I have stated that fairly clearly now and in the past. Get it?And I have read the HFY book and gave it away
-with pleasure))

Speaking of what other wing chun lines do and don't do why did Augustine Fong change the Yip Man wooden dummy form.

((Speaking? Who is speaking? OH- You are -and changing the subject ad going far afield - desperate
argumentation. If you revisit my website there is an interview with my Sifu Fong on his thinking on the dummy form.I wont waste bandwidth by reproducing the whole interview here. Sifu Fong speaks for himself - and he has. See the article/interview-it was a real question and answer session. If you know your Ip man history...1. Ip man himself tinkered with the dummy form at different times- subtracting and adding. 2. there was a separate set of dummy kicking motions. 3. Ip man himself tinkered with the role of jam sao in slt. 4. the principles of wing chun are the key-
Ip man's, Ho kam Ming and Fong each have their individualised approach to the same principles in the details.. There is no hung gar, mantis, taiji in there. Same wing chun logic based principles- evolution in teaching methods and applications... a natural process.
5. Very few people learned the mok jong form directly from Ip Man. HKM did. Again- see the Fong interview on my site.
Any other desperate move to bring in extraneous things to the good bad and ugly thread started by Victor? As I mentioned the best part was Victor's attempt to bury the WT?TWC hatchet---though not so long ago he was stoking the fires himself in this funny farm with an imagined Boztepe/Mazza matchmaking scenario. Vistor has his own chemistry.IMO he made a mistake in judgment- his choice- in even mentioning the Gee-Meng claims-best ignored))

I prefer not to argue with you and waste my time. I have an interest in Buddhist history independent of wig chun and Hendrik.Joy

[Ultimatewingchun]

Let's not turn this into yet another HFY vs. the WORLD flame thread...shall we?

Who cares whether or not tan sau came from white crane? And who cares whether or not Augustine Fong changed the Wooden Dummy?

How about some more up-to-date questions...like whether or not those WD changes make sense in today's fighting environment?

And when does tan sau work? When is it better to use some other move?

In other words...LET'S GET REAL!

All the B.S. about history, lineage, and politics doesn't serve the future strength of WING CHUN.

Can you tan sau against a single leg takedown that was first disguised by a straight lead hand punch?

Isn't this a more interesting and pertinent question?

Can the Wooden Dummy be used to develop power on the strikes and kicks in ways that haven't been done before? If so....any ideas about taking the arms and leg out (for example) and use it like a punching bag? Any merit to that? Padding the body of the WD up and going full power...good idea? Bad idea?

Allowing the body to move (don't keep it stationery)...so that it slides from side-to-side when struck...good idea? So that it simulates a person's reaction when struck just a little bit more than before?

TO BE OR NOT TO BE...that is the question.

[Ernie]

Victor,
Sadly getting real will never happen when people spend there energy fighting over a dead past

A complete and total waste of time in my book

Spend time developing and sharing skill and training methods

This would mean you really care about wing Chun and the talent that has been passed down

Instead people try and lock down there little place in history by way of association like that equates to anything other then hot air

Man shut up and train

Develop and grow

Stop trying to connect yourselves to a past generations accomplishments they are not yours

Good lord if people spent half the time pulling the head out of the past A$$

And put that energy into the future then perhaps wing Chun wouldn’t be turning into the laughing stock it’s becoming in the modern world


Sometimes for all the intelligence and passion you guys have your just a down right embarrassment

Take off your gung fu slippers, silk suits and old terms

Put on some Nikes a decent sweat suit and get off the time machine

Train and do your part

Instead of being a bunch of babies crying about yesterday

Rant over back to the tofu turkey

[duende]

Ditto on the get real part! I said what we believe. PERIOD!!! Short and sweet like. Fukk... if you don't like it, get off your ass and write your own book.

Next....

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by duende
Ditto on the get real part! I said what we believe. PERIOD!!! Short and sweet like. Fukk... if you don't like it, get off your ass and write your own book.

Next....



The problem is BELIEVE doesnt make thing REAL.
Writing a book doesnt make thing REAL either.

and sometimes Reality itself changes with location, period of time.....

[duende]

Hendikk,

So another words you don't believe you are real because therefore that would make you less real??? Is that part of your White crane wonder twin power?? Form of... Chan imposter who has no REAL knowledge.

Your a joke

[duende]

Oh and now I see you went back and added to your post...

something about reality and time and space... or location rather.



:o Your unabashed ability to aproppriate other's knowledge and apply them to your own misguided end never fails.

Yes... Time, space, and energy is common knowledge... but your usage of them in a Chan context is something new.

[Edmund]

Can this thread just be renamed to "Wing Chun: The Ugly"?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally posted by Edmund
Can this thread just be renamed to "Wing Chun: The Ugly"?

ha....ha...ha...ha...ha...ha...ha

Now that was funny, dude !!!

[canglong]

I tend to agree with Hendrik - --martyg The fact that Robert Chu is your Sifu plays no role in that?
In other words...LET'S GET REAL!---Ultimatewingchun One would need to understand the concept of real first that doesn't seem to be the case here or you wouldn't need to continually ask the same questions in different threads.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Edmund
Can this thread just be renamed to "Wing Chun: The Ugly"?


hahahaha that is great!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Let me repeat something I wrote earlier in the thread:

"But in the final analysis....I believe that Wing Chun is a great fighting system whose exponents and lineages need to spend more time getting together for real sparring tournaments...wherein participants shake hands before and after the matches...learn from each other...sort out what works and what doesn't work...regardless of which WC system it came from..."


AND LESS TIME ON THE INTERNET THROWING CRAP AT EACH OTHER.


Now Tony...that's an example of what I mean by REAL.

[Ultimatewingchun]

On another note that might be pertinent to this thread...I just noticed that someone around here has this as an avatar by their signature:


"Life is what's happening in the meantimes we are busy posting in Gung Fu vs MMA's threads."

Let me see if I can translate this into simple English:

"STOP REMINDING ME...that I might wet my pants if someone ever broke through my wing chun infight range into a clinch/takedown/groundfight game."

[martyg]

Originally posted by canglong



I tend to agree with Hendrik - --Martyg
The fact that Robert Chu is your Sifu plays no role in that?

Due to your creative editing, not sure what you're refering to as it could be taken two different ways. The original statement before you clipped it was "At the end of the day though and based on my own experiences with the Friendship Seminars, I tend to agree with Hendrik - nobody can speak for all of wing chun or any other person other than themselves." As stated, my views have to do with the Friendship Seminars - which I was doing long before I was involved with Robert (those started in '98 in fact). And the statement also refers to everyone, across all branches. Not the VTM/HFY specifically. That nobody can speak for anyone else, and no other branch or method other than their own. We all can certainly give opinions on matters, which is another issue entirely.

If by editing you meant to imply I agree with Hendrik regarding his views on the VTM/HFY/etc. that was clearly not stated. I however did make a statement in the paragraph before the Hendrik quote regarding your mention of objectiveness on research, where I mentioned it's also understandable with your views being a HFY person. I was going to pre-emptively answer your comeback ("......Robert Chu is your sifu....") then as well, but figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt on not shooting back such an obvious comeback. Looks like I should have gone with my initial instinct on how you'd respond. No, my views on the subject were on record on the WCML and in person going back to at least '99, long before I had anything to do with Robert (whom I bai si'd in January of 2001, before that I did TWC from '92-'00). Perhaps you're not aware of that because you're newer to the "scene", or if you heard otherwise you were simply missinformed.


Marty
Watchful Dragon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
On another note that might be pertinent to this thread...I just noticed that someone around here has this as an avatar by their signature:


"Life is what's happening in the meantimes we are busy posting in Gung Fu vs MMA's threads."

Let me see if I can translate this into simple English:

"STOP REMINDING ME...that I might wet my pants if someone ever broke through my wing chun infight range into a clinch/takedown/groundfight game."

Victor- I don't agree with what you say.It's my own business!
You are not happy about it?...That's your own business but you should try to stay polite at least!...
BTW,my sign was not written with you in mind...Mind you?...

[canglong]

Martyg,
Since you don't know me your post said I am either biased, ignorant or a liar my post was just returning the favor.
Now Tony...that's an example of what I mean by REAL. Parlati Sifu,
As we now see anyone can make a post action to match words are what is now needed in my opinion.

[t_niehoff]

Canglong,

canglong wrote: The fact that Robert Chu is your Sifu plays no role in that?

I'm also a student of Robert Chu and I don't tend to agree with Hendrik on many things (sort of shoots down your alliance theory). His views on the history of WCK are worth looking into IMO (though I haven't accepted them as true), as are the VTM's. What you and the VTM may want to consider is that some find his articles (co-authored by Robert) -- but not his posts to this forum!! -- more compelling than the VTM's because Hendrik typically tells us the information he is relying on, where that information came from, and his reasoning for drawing his conclusions from that information. This allows us, at least to some extent, to examine not only his conclusions but evaluate the process he used to arrive at them. The VTM, on the other hand, typically only tells us their hyperbole-laced conclusions (and that prose style doesn't smack of impartiality btw), relying on argument from authority ("believe us because we are authorities). This may be sufficient for noncritical thinkers, but it doesn't permit the reader to evaluate those conclusions for themselves. Moreoever, this lack of transparency in how the VTM reached their conclusions suggests that something is amiss (otherwise, why not provide the raw info, its sources, the chain of reasoning, etc.). If the VTM wants to win us over, they need to change how they present their info.

[martyg]

Originally posted by canglong
Martyg,
Since you don't know me your post said I am either biased, ignorant or a liar my post was just returning the favor.

If that's what you want to read in to it, that's your problem - however those words were never typed. If you need to read in to things and continue grasping for straws to vent as you have in your last few responses, it's obvious you have issues beyond what's going on here and should seek professional help.




Marty
Watchful Dragon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[SAAMAG]

I think one of the reasons the "fighting" wing chun is erroding is because no one fights anymore. It's not like in the 50's when local schools would go on the rooftops for "friendly' matches and tests of skill. People don't train as hard because quite frankly...they don't have to.

Couple that with all the inter-lineage fighting and you have a recipe for total degradation of the system in a few decades. I'm with Ultimate on the whole idea of forgetting all the BS that most of us debate and just move onto making each other better by bettering ourselves and then spreading the knowledge gained from real training.

I think I also read somewhere someone saying something to Ultimate about the person being more important then the style and then him contradicting it by saying he wanted wing chun to take it's rightful place as a fighting art....my response to that is if we all stopped the BS then we would make wing chun stronger as a whole because we're each getting better ourselves. A good army starts with the individual.

Peace out....man this is an uuuuugly thread.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Vankuen
I think one of the reasons the "fighting" wing chun is erroding is because no one fights anymore. It's not like in the 50's when local schools would go on the rooftops for "friendly' matches and tests of skill. People don't train as hard because quite frankly...they don't have to.

Couple that with all the inter-lineage fighting and you have a recipe for total degradation of the system in a few decades. I'm with Ultimate on the whole idea of forgetting all the BS that most of us debate and just move onto making each other better by bettering ourselves and then spreading the knowledge gained from real training.

I think I also read somewhere someone saying something to Ultimate about the person being more important then the style and then him contradicting it by saying he wanted wing chun to take it's rightful place as a fighting art....my response to that is if we all stopped the BS then we would make wing chun stronger as a whole because we're each getting better ourselves. A good army starts with the individual.

Peace out....man this is an uuuuugly thread.


The instant we think our thought/idea /speculation is the most reasonable and correct. That is the begining of falling into a trap of political fighting. Because same with us, everyone will think thier idea is the most reasonable and correct.


until one learn to be able to get out from this trap. Life is tough.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Vankuen
I think one of the reasons the "fighting" wing chun is erroding is because no one fights anymore. It's not like in the 50's when local schools would go on the rooftops for "friendly' matches and tests of skill. People don't train as hard because quite frankly...they don't have to.

Couple that with all the inter-lineage fighting and you have a recipe for total degradation of the system in a few decades. I'm with Ultimate on the whole idea of forgetting all the BS that most of us debate and just move onto making each other better by bettering ourselves and then spreading the knowledge gained from real training.

I think I also read somewhere someone saying something to Ultimate about the person being more important then the style and then him contradicting it by saying he wanted wing chun to take it's rightful place as a fighting art....my response to that is if we all stopped the BS then we would make wing chun stronger as a whole because we're each getting better ourselves. A good army starts with the individual.

Peace out....man this is an uuuuugly thread.


The instant we think our----- thought/idea /speculation/Switching from one great idea to another great idea ----- is the most reasonable and correct.

That is the begining of falling into a trap of political fighting. Because same with us, everyone will think thier idea is the most reasonable and correct.

and how many of us human can differentiate between Observing then reporting the exist facts , and taking speculation/ believe/ thinking in one's personal consciousness as the supreme REALITY of the world?

it always happen that, human pulling reverse gear and thinking that is forward.

just human characteristics, and how do we manage this? Big question.

just some thought.

[Ernie]

This thread sure is

[t_niehoff]

Vankuen wrote:

I think one of the reasons the "fighting" wing chun is erroding is because no one fights anymore.

**Let's be even sharper -- the reason for the bickering is that very few are practicing WCK anymore. "Practicing WCK" or "doing WCK" is fighting; if you're not fighting, I don't know what you are doing but it is not WCK. WCK has for the most part moved away from being a martial art, a fighting method, into a theoretical miasma comprised almost entirely of forms and drills (which "skill" being defined as "good at chi sao"). WCK is no longer performance-based (with that performance being fighting), and so anyone regardless of their ability to perform can put themselves out as an authority.

if we all stopped the BS then we would make wing chun stronger as a whole

**The only way to do that is by vigilantly focusing on increased performance. Anyone teaching -- or holding themselves out as an authority -- should be ready and willing to step out onto the floor and show what skill they have (and not with chi sao). If they won't, then we should realize that it's because they haven't any real skill. This is nothing radical -- they do it in BJJ, wrestling, boxing, MMA, any genuine martial art.

[duende]

What a joke...

The VTM has invested countless hours traveling aroung the world researching and documenting the histroy of WC and it's various strands of the art. No one person or any other organization come close to the amount of effort put out by them.


All hendrik has is some theories, some pictures that have no more in common with WC than any other picture s of Chinese MA, and most notably a lot of talk and no walk.


But besides all that... the VTM IS NOT HFY. I'm not part of the VTM.

I think we all got the ugly part of WC staight now.

[SAAMAG]

Okay....I was going to wait to ask this but....what's HFY stand for!?!?!?!

And thanks for elaborating Terence...I didn't have time to write all that. Maybe that's why I liked the EBMAS school here...because the guy running the show walks the walk instead of just talking.

[Ultimatewingchun]

HFY stands for Hung Fa Yi...Van. Another style of Wing Chun.

But this thread is not about HFY.
It's not about the VTM.
It's not about Hendrik's theories.
It's not about Robert Chu.
It's not about William Cheung.
Or Emin Boztepe.




WHEN ARE ALL OF YOU GOING TO REALIZE THAT ?

At the end of the day - the bad and the ugly need to be discarded...

...and THE GOOD needs to be focused upon and made better.

What is The Good?

Let's start having some tournaments and get-togethers and find out! Put the cards on the table. Let it all hang out. Shake hands before - and shake hands after. Then we'll know what we've got!

But what we have here now is a bunch of warring family clans in some old-world medieval country...which weakens the country due to inter-regional, ethnic, religious, racial, economic, political, and familial fighting and strife - and therefore the country as a whole is open to foreign invasion. Which is still the case for many countries today, in fact.

Well on a much smaller scale that's exactly what's happening in the Wing Chun world today - and the foreign countries are BJJ, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Wrestling, Boxing, etc.

They've invaded the turf and kicked us out.

They are now the Rulers of the Country.

DO YOU GUYS LIKE THAT?

Some of you couldn't care less...I know. But I'm not talking to those people. I'm talking to the rest of you.

[planetwc]

Well I think Leung Ting has put in more time and money doing his own research and has published more books than the VTM has. So what? He has his own biases as well (see his own book "Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun).

All any of THEM have is theories, drawings and some pictures.


While it is nice to honor the past and preserve it...

That does nothing for furthering the current state of Wing Chun fighting skill today--which is Victor's, Ernie's, Terrence's and my point.

Believing in Ng Mui, Tan Sao Ng, White Crane, Shaolin or the Easter Bunny isn't goingg to translate into fighting ability.

Tracing lineage back 30, 100, 300 or 3000 years isn't going to accord anyone with mystical fighting powers...

Training and fighting will.

About the only fighting skill Wing Chun is renowned for today is what we are engaging in now--VERBAL infighting.

The age of "marketing" based on dead people and ANCIENT HISTORY should be long over for TCMA. Do we still live in a society based on ancestor worship?

The age of "marketing" based on teaching people to actually fight and win effectively should be more than all you need. Are you teaching an art that with consistent training will yeild a higher percentage of me being an effective fighter?

Based on what PROOF? How can it be VERIFIED?

MMA guys would rightly look at this kind of thread and just laugh at the wannabees. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by duende
What a joke...

The VTM has invested countless hours traveling aroung the world researching and documenting the histroy of WC and it's various strands of the art. No one person or any other organization come close to the amount of effort put out by them.


All hendrik has is some theories, some pictures that have no more in common with WC than any other picture s of Chinese MA, and most notably a lot of talk and no walk.


But besides all that... the VTM IS NOT HFY. I'm not part of the VTM.

I think we all got the ugly part of WC staight now.

[SAAMAG]

Then let's start being more constructive with this....

How about we create an annual or bi annual KFO wing chun get together were we can meet and practice regardless of lineage, as all of our drills are relatively the same, and of course we can have sparring or whatever as well, as long as ego's are left at home and things can be kept civil.

Also it needs to be held somewhere to accomodate it, maybe sifu on the forum can arrange for the guys to stay at the school with some sleeping bags for something for the weekend, since we're there to train anyway right? Just an idea....what do you all think?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good thoughts, David.

And Van...I like your suggestions. I couldn't accomodate people sleeping in the space I use - but people are welcome to come here...and I'm open to going to other places a few times a year as well.

[SAAMAG]

Well not necessarily you....but anyone on here that would entertain the idea of pursuing it. No lineage, no BS arguments, no organization fees or monetary gain, everyone foots the their own bill for getting there and getting their own meals, if one of the sifu's on here wants to possibly put up their school space for something like this, it can be just guys (and gals?!) getting together to further their knowledge of wing chun, think of it as a KFO wing chun "seminar".

[old jong]

Believing in Ng Mui, Tan Sao Ng, White Crane, Shaolin or the Easter Bunny isn't goingg to translate into fighting ability.

It depends!...The easter bunny could very well teach us about some footwork!...;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Easter is not too far away...about 5 months?

Might be a good time for a Wing Chun get-together.

"Forever Springtime"

[SAAMAG]

How far is brooklyn from the bronx? I have a military buddy that lives in the bronx suburbs (he's an AF recruiter) and I may end up going to visit him sometime next year....maybe I can make it a wing chun trip as well and visit some of the schools up there for a little learning.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Van:

By car...my school is only about maybe 25-35 minutes from the Bronx - depending upon what part of the Bronx your friend lives.

[duende]

Planet WC...

I don't think it's wise for you to mention what would make a MMA laugh...

just leave it at that.

[t_niehoff]

PlanetWC's comments are absolutely spot on.

[canglong]

Terence,
So in between your mma rounds you have a tupperware party? You sure they aren't laughing at you and not with you.
Speaking of books when Robert Chu said Wing Chun isn't about making money is he refering to when he sold the rights to "Complete Wing Chun" for a measly $2,000. ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I don't think it's wise for you to mention what would make a MMA laugh...just leave it at that." (duende)

"Terence...So in between your mma rounds you have a tupperware party? You sure they aren't laughing at you and not with you. Speaking of books when Robert Chu said Wing Chun isn't about making money is he refering to when he sold the rights to 'Complete Wing Chun' for a measly $2,000." (canglong - Tony Jacobs)


You two guys are just trollin' your a$$es off.

Why not just show up when these proposed get-togethers occur...and do some hard sparring.

THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT BOOKS AND TUPPERWARE - if you're still interested in that sort of thing.

Sound like a plan?

[sihing]

I like the idea of a get together someday to compare notes with each and all. It would have to be probably at least a 3 day event with all the variations being discussed and sparred over, but it would be a something to look forward to in the unity department.

James

[duende]

Trolling???


Alan Chow (4 year student) from my kwoon took out a 23 year veteran from Planet WC's kwoon in a gor sau match. Repeatly struck the guy down because he had absolutely no clue how to cover his upper gate. No concept of what to do when a strike comes to your head. No reality just wondering chi sau.

Your right... that's not laughable. That's just plain sad.

[t_niehoff]

duende wrote:

Alan Chow (4 year student) from my kwoon took out a 23 year veteran from Planet WC's kwoon in a gor sau match. Repeatly struck the guy down because he had absolutely no clue how to cover his upper gate. No concept of what to do when a strike comes to your head. No reality just wondering chi sau.

Your right... that's not laughable. That's just plain sad.

**What's really sad is that some people think "gor sao" reflects "reality". If he keeps up his training, maybe someday he'll be a chi sao tournament champion!

[SAAMAG]

So Im wondering, if someone isn't good at gor sau, would that necessarily mean that he would be just as bad in a real fight?

I have a friend from back in FL who trained with me a little bit in wing chun. He was terrible at gor sau because he hadn't acquired the skills to do it well yet. But in a real fight, he took down many guys who challeged him. Granted he was also trained in BJJ and boxing...but hey that's besides the point because he was really bad at gor sau.

[Vajramusti]

duende sez:

(4 year student) from my kwoon took out a 23 year veteran
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((About a year and a half ago- there was an invitational friendship type of gathering in San Jose. Your kwoon was invited but no one from your kwoon showed up- as far as i could tell. Folks from quite a few lineages were there.))

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence, Van, Joy.....points made.

We don't have to do the "my dad can kick your dad's a$$" thing - do we duende?

What's the point of that?

No one is singling out your school/lineage for ridicule. Like I said earlier - there's enough blame to go around for the things that have gone wrong in the WC world in the past.

Let's all start a dialogue for when/where/how. etc. Much better than internet bickering.

For instance - I have a suggestion as to how to relieve some inter-lineage tension that's very simple and could be a good ice-breaker (in fact Ernie mentioned this earlier on the thread if I remember right)...

No uniforms, logos, titles (ie. - Sifu...Master) to be used. No writing of any kind on the clothes to distinguish schools/lineages.

Just a bunch of people getting together in non-descript workout clothes to do some wing chun.

[t_niehoff]

Victor wrote:

I have a suggestion as to how to relieve some inter-lineage tension that's very simple and could be a good ice-breaker (in fact Ernie mentioned this earlier on the thread if I remember right ):

No uniforms, logos, titles (ie. - Sifu...Master) to be used. No writing of any kind on the clothes to distinguish schools/lineages.

Just a bunch of people getting together in non-descript workout clothes to do some wing chun.

**If you mean to get together and fight (and not compare forms and drills), IME that will not be too productive -- imagine a bunch of "boxers" who hit the bag, jumped rope, worked the focus mitts, etc., that is did all the prep work but never got into the ring as part of their training, were to get together for one day or weekend and spar. So what? That weekend will not provide the training they need to become good boxers, nor will it show much of anything else. This stuff has to be day in and day out. It's like a bunch of WCK practitioners that never did chi sao deciding to get together for one weekend and do some chi sao and expecting to learn something from it -- it's the wrong way to approach the problem. Fighting has to be day in and day out a part of one's training, and it has to be done against other skillful fighters, to make any significant progress. A better idea is for interested persons to go down to the local NHB gym and have a go with the guys/gals there -- get the experience of fighting with good, trained folks. See how good fighters train. Then, begin your own day-in day-out training.

[SAAMAG]

That's the way I always prefer to do it.

So then let's materialise this idea. Who would be willing to host a KFO wing chun get together? That's the first thing we need to figure out.

Then we can see who is available when, and then try to set up a time when the most can go.

The weekend doesn't have to be sparring only, if some want to chi sau, let them chi sau, is some want to spar, let them. If some want to compare forms, then so be it. Mainly it could just be a get together so that we can put names with faces, and skill levels with no BS. I'll bet a lot of "tough talk" would not be so easily given after that.

[duende]

Glad you know the way to San Jose Joy... you can have a big star by your name now!

Don't you think it would be wiser to know your way around your own town first though??? Because about a month ago there was a friendship seminar in your hometown. Our Chandler members were there. Where were you???

Victor...

The truth hurts. Come on... we both know what really makes MMA's laugh about WC and it sure isn't what's being written right now.

[duende]

Originally posted by t_niehoff



**What's really sad is that some people think "gor sao" reflects "reality". If he keeps up his training, maybe someday he'll be a chi sao tournament champion!

No... what's really sad is that your ego has led you to believe that we all live by the same experiences you do. Gor Sau for us has nothing to do with rules or tournaments. Chi Sau for us is just one progression away from San Sau.

[canglong]

You two guys are just trollin' your a$$es off. --Ultimatewingchun
Terence and Joy it's what they do best.

[Vajramusti]

Comment on duende's post:

Glad you know the way to San Jose Joy... you can have a big star by your name now!

((Sarcasm ignored)

Don't you think it would be wiser to know your way around your own town first though???

((I know my way pretty well. Just zero interest in HFY))

Because about a month ago there was a friendship seminar in your hometown. Our Chandler members were there. Where were you???

(( A year ago I went to the first gathering with some students.
We basically sat around and chit chatted in separate groups for over an hour. Got bored and left. Apparently there was some demos later.

Apparently lots of top flight folks didnt bother to come.
I dont bother to go the second time particularly since I do my own wing chun at that time.. Apparently it was a smaller crowd.

Different gatherings different crowds. One picks and choses what is important to them. A couple of months or so ago- there was
a large gathering of different families other than mine and I was there.))

[martyg]

Originally posted by canglong


You two guys are just trollin' your a$$es off. --Ultimatewingchun

Terence and Joy it's what they do best.


*sigh* More creative editing. That was you and Duende Victor was refering to. Here's the original quote:



"I don't think it's wise for you to mention what would make a MMA laugh...just leave it at that." (duende)

"Terence...So in between your mma rounds you have a tupperware party? You sure they aren't laughing at you and not with you. Speaking of books when Robert Chu said Wing Chun isn't about making money is he refering to when he sold the rights to 'Complete Wing Chun' for a measly $2,000." (canglong - Tony Jacobs)


You two guys are just trollin' your a$$es off.



As for $2000, there were three authors of that book (though most of the chapters were written directly by proponents of each linneage). That's around $666 dollars a person, and I wouldn't exactly call that a windfall. Secondly, without that book Garret Gee sifu and HFY wouldn't be enjoying the exposure they get via Benny and Richard - Benny has mentioned to myself and others on many an occasion that the chapter on HFY was the catalyst for him to seek Garret out to study.



Marty
Watchful Dragon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[duende]

Originally posted by Vajramusti

Apparently lots of top flight folks didnt bother to come.
I dont bother to go the second time particularly since I do my own wing chun at that time.. Apparently it was a smaller crowd.


Top flight??? Ha! We were wondering what you used those flying elbows for.

At least Sifu Gross and Sifu Widener don't spend so much time with their heads in the clouds as you. Regardless of what you may think of them.

[canglong]

As for $2000, there were three authors of that book (though most of the chapters were written directly by proponents of each linneage). Actually there were 2 authors and another person smarter than both of them.

Marty if you don't think I knew whom Victor was referring to you might want find you a program guide and catch up.

[SAAMAG]

I say again....this post uggggglllly.

This has dwindled down to a few people throwing personal issues into a thread that had nothing to do with them.

It's pretty sad to see the types of people that are in the martial arts nowadays. I thought our martial arts was supposed to be devoid of animosity and ego...

oh well...time to get the popcorn....

[Vajramusti]

Duende sez:

Top flight??? Ha! We were wondering what you used those flying elbows for.

((Dont know what you mean. Another wiseacre comment ignored))

At least Sifu Gross and Sifu Widener don't spend so much time with their heads in the clouds as you. Regardless of what you may think of them.

((I did not say a single negative thing about them. Know them both. Rest of unproductive wise guy comments again ignored))

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Terence, your first name should be Jack. Your mouth is full of BS. You always talk about training as a fighter, let me see it Jack! I am amused at your lack of consistency in your posts, these thing tend to bleed into ones KF. I hope that this hasn't happened to you, because you would end up looking like an idiot in a ring (controlled sparing) scenario. MMA, I’ve trained with MMA guys, it IS controlled, so your NOT fighting, more of an intense training. Reality check Jack! And yes, this is directed just to you not to your teacher, your training buddies, or others in your family, just you! Of course, I don't have to comment on your family since you disconnect from them at your leisure!
Stick to WC and stop pi$$ing every one off! Jack!

[SAAMAG]

Okay...so is HFY the same as what Garrett Gee teaches?

And what is the big deal about that lineage that everyone in it is having a hissy fit?

How can one have good wing chun when they can't even control their emotions?

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Vankuen said:

How can one have good wing chun when they can't even control their emotions?


How so true.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Oh well...time to get the popcorn.... Not too heavy on the butter for me, please. :D

Now back to our regularly scheduled program....................

[SAAMAG]

well crap man!! I'm still trying to figure all this out. I mean it's cool reading I guess while Im on break at work. Might as well get some munchies while Im at it....:D

[martyg]

Originally posted by canglong

Actually there were 2 authors and another person smarter than both of them.

Regardless of any moronic attempt at a comeback on your part, there were three authors though Y. Wu contributed the least - mainly in the nanyang chapter. Though again, most everyone's chapters were actually submitted from each family directly with little if any editing. I saw the original manuscripts and material back in '98 the first time I met Rene . He brought them with to the first friendship seminar up by Ray, which was also the first time I met Benny. The book was not announced yet or in publication yet at the time.



Marty if you don't think I knew whom Victor was referring to you might want find you a program guide and catch up.

Tony, if you don't think I knew what you were attempting and was simply showing how grade schoolish the reasoning was - I suggest you seriously go for that help you genuinely need.


Marty
Watchful Dragon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[old jong]

That Orville Riddensomething brand is perfect for a thread like tis one:You read some ugly stuff and eat some ugly stuff!
Thanks Victor!...;)

[JamesHFYofAZ]

HFY (http://www.hungfakwoon.com/) HFY108. forum (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/index.php)
Enjoy and hope to see every one with an honest intent to discuss KF there! We have an open door to all families willing to share and learn with the rest of us.

[canglong]

Marty,
Wow, this is the best thread you could pick to highjack and speak about your friendship seminars or to promote "Complete Wing Chun". No doubt more and more prospects are gained with each and every post.

[planetwc]

23 years?
There are VERY few students at the San Jose school with at least 23 years in.

Steve Wong, Sandy Wong and Vince Lee have probably more than that, as to 23 years exactly, no one I can remember. Do you know who this person was?


Originally posted by duende
Trolling???


Alan Chow (4 year student) from my kwoon took out a 23 year veteran from Planet WC's kwoon in a gor sau match. Repeatly struck the guy down because he had absolutely no clue how to cover his upper gate. No concept of what to do when a strike comes to your head. No reality just wondering chi sau.

Your right... that's not laughable. That's just plain sad.

[SAAMAG]

aaahhh, most of us have read the book already Im sure.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
aaahhh, most of us have read the book already Im sure. I'm waiting for the movie. :D

[SAAMAG]

"Believe half of what you see, and nothing of what you hear"

I was thinking about all the BS we read about who did this or that on here, and thought of that saying, i just can't remember though who said that.....

[Vajramusti]

This thread has really deteriorated. If Old Jong is correct and the
starter of a thread can delete it- there is an opportunity for using that choice wisely.

Victor started this thread and in my judgement helped trigger
the standard noise from duende and canglong by referring to Meng and Gee.Those folks have their own discussion site- why even refer to them here?

No great harm will occur by deleting this thread- the ugly has taken over any way.

Over and out.

[martyg]

Originally posted by canglong
Marty,
Wow, this is the best thread you could pick to highjack and speak about your friendship seminars or to promote "Complete Wing Chun". No doubt more and more prospects are gained with each and every post.


More creative revisionism on your part. The first appearance of Complete Wing Chun in this thread was when YOU brought it up in the following statement:



Speaking of books when Robert Chu said Wing Chun isn't about making money is he refering to when he sold the rights to "Complete Wing Chun" for a measly $2,000.

The friendship seminar was brought up in my last post to give a time frame reference for when I saw the manuscripts, nothing more. There hasn't been one since January of 2001, so there's nothing to promote.

Thirdly it's quite clear who hijacked this thread when even the originator of this thread is saying things like "
You two guys are just trollin' your a$$es off" directly to you.

As for who's gaining or loosing prospects, you and your family haven't exactly gained many prospects or fans on this forums and others, especially with conduct like this.

But I'm sure you'll have another editing session and ridiculous comeback on that.

Marty
Watchful Dragon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
This thread has really deteriorated. If Old Jong is correct and the
starter of a thread can delete it- there is an opportunity for using that choice wisely.

Victor started this thread and in my judgement helped trigger
the standard noise from duende and canglong by referring to Meng and Gee.Those folks have their own discussion site- why even refer to them here?

No great harm will occur by deleting this thread- the ugly has taken over any way.

Over and out.


Now Joy...why should I NOT mention Gee and Meng?

Why should I be afraid that two of the HFY guys might try to hijack the thread if I mention those HFY "leaders" in a light that shows that they're FAR from perfect?

I don't care what duende and canglong think...the major point of the thread is too important for that.

If they can't take the heat - too bad!

They should grow up and be men.

That's how I see it.

The fact that Marty, yourself, Terence, etc. want to respond to duende and canglong's trolling is not my concern.

I'll just keep returning to the centerline each time somebody tries to take me (and the thread) off it.

THEREFORE....IN RESPONSE TO THIS...


"If you mean to get together and fight (and not compare forms and drills), IME that will not be too productive -- imagine a bunch of "boxers" who hit the bag, jumped rope, worked the focus mitts, etc., that is did all the prep work but never got into the ring as part of their training, were to get together for one day or weekend and spar. So what? That weekend will not provide the training they need to become good boxers, nor will it show much of anything else..." (Terence)

I agree Terence...the main thrust of the get-together should be SPARRING.

AND WHEN VAN SAID THIS...

"So then let's materialise this idea. Who would be willing to host a KFO wing chun get together? That's the first thing we need to figure out.

Then we can see who is available when, and then try to set up a time when the most can go.

The weekend doesn't have to be sparring only, if some want to chi sau, let them chi sau, is some want to spar, let them. If some want to compare forms, then so be it. Mainly it could just be a get together so that we can put names with faces, and skill levels with no BS. I'll bet a lot of "tough talk" would not be so easily given after that...."

He was right on! We won't force anyone to spar - but enough of us who want to spar should show up and just do it.

So let's talk details of the get-together...and leave the trollers in their strollers.

Any takers on being a host?

[sihing]

I think if too many things are going on at the same time in a unannounced fashion (like Ernie and Victor go off and start sparring and the majority of us there have no idea this is happening, while others are doing chi-sao, while others are comparing entry techniques, and so on..) then there will be allot of wasted information missed by some of us. Maybe a theme should be set for the first get together, like sparring, then after that if another time is set then another theme can be chosen, like chi-sao and how it applies to combat , or whatever. That way we all will know what to expect and maybe, for example, while some are sparring others can watch and discuss things in an analytical way, and the roles reversed. Sorta like a seminar except there is no Lead instructor running the event, but we should select a person responsible for keeping things on track.

Just an idea....


James

[Ultimatewingchun]

I like your idea, James.

Keep it simple.

We're getting together to spar.

Whoever is interested in that....should show up.

I was inclined at first to agree with Van; but you're right - sparring should be the one-and-only activity....(aside from some good old fashioned chit-chat and lunch/dinner later).

[sihing]

And if the theme is sparring, lets try WC vs. anything, instead of WC vs. WC, due to this being allot like chi-sao. Also after two people spar (it being video taped also) a discussion/analysis should happen between those in the group (a short one at that) and there can be more than 1 group. Maybe near the end of the get together a presentation of the videos and brief overview of what was discovered and discussed could be presented to the group as a whole, that way everything learned by the groups can be shared to all. Off course those that don't want to spar are free to just observe and contribute to the analysis that way.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now you're starting to lose me a little bit, James. (But that's alright...we all need to discuss/debate these things beforehand - and try to come to some consensus).

I like your idea about sparring against all kinds of things (not just WC vs. WC)...and I like the idea of video-taping everything.

I don't like the idea, however, of people commenting after each and every match...(would slow things down...instead, I would prefer to see/hear analysis at the end of the day and/or over dinner later). And as to this...

"Off course those that don't want to spar are free to just observe and contribute to the analysis..."

No. Observation is one thing.

But unsolicited analysis from those who don't participate (spar)...SOUNDS TOO MUCH LIKE THE OLD WAYS TO ME!

[sihing]

Yes, the analysis could happen later with maybe a video reel of all the sparring matches and a discussion then, but if 40 people show up and there are 20 or more sparring matches(these would have to be a light contact sparring if you want to be sparring more than 2 different people a day) that would take allot of time to discuss things and talk it over with everyone. We could always make it a three-day event and on the 3rd day do all of the analyses then but still that would take allot of time watching tapes and talking about it all. Or we could make it a 2 day event, spar with whoever you wanted to, tape all of them and then each of us gets a tape and watch them when we get back home and discuss it all here.....The idea I hope is to exchange information, not argue, and try to learn about the various WC ways..

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

And what is your definition of "light-contact sparring?"

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
And what is your definition of "light-contact sparring?"


your picking up on something has been standing out to me

first i love the idea of us getting together in group or one on one

but Victor ,

people that never spar , don't know how to spar

think on how long it takes to train some one to spar

people get all emotional when the get smacked

sparring is sparring , nothing personal just a pressure ****er

but i have seen many heavy breathing vien on the forehead , eyes roll back nut cases

come out of the most mellow types once they get zapped

are you willing to trust people to maintain ?

those that don't have a clue ?

injuries come from beginers and dudes with hidden emotional

time bombs

now you know how it goes Victor , when you run into a loose canon you often have to shut him down before he hurts you

as people that never really spar get tired they get desperate

silly $hit comes out

so there would have to be some bonding and getting to know each other and being honest about skill levels

leave the got something to prove stuff at the door

[sihing]

Controlled hits, not as much follow through, lighter contact than normal full contact full power blows(who wants to end up with black eyes and strains and sprains), unless of course there is full contact equipment around that does not interfrer with one's movement to attack or defend. Problem with this is when I get hit or I hit you full power, you still keep on coming due to the equipment, whereas in reality either of us could have been put down at that time.

Basically if full contact is involved then things could easily escalate, then we have to start to discuss what is legal and what isn't. Is this a seminar/get together or a tournament with winner takes all? I know when someone lands a clean shot on me that didn't make contact and visa versa when I do the same. Would low leg attack be allowed, joint/neck manipulations and such. If two people at the meet want to full contact then fine let them go at it, with a ref, some are not into that. Some are intense and whether or not its real fighting or sparring, its all the same to them, and some are not like this. To me at a event like this I'm not thinking about fighting, but about learning something and experiencing others views and techniques.

There are various forms of sparring, what do you recommend Victor?

James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Ernie said:

your picking up on something has been standing out to me

first i love the idea of us getting together in group or one on one

but Victor ,

people that never spar , don't know how to spar

think on how long it takes to train some one to spar

people get all emotional when the get smacked

sparring is sparring , nothing personal just a pressure ****er

but i have seen many heavy breathing vien on the forehead , eyes roll back nut cases

come out of the most mellow types once they get zapped

are you willing to trust people to maintain ?

those that don't have a clue ?

injuries come from beginers and dudes with hidden emotional

time bombs

now you know how it goes Victor , when you run into a loose canon you often have to shut him down before he hurts you

as people that never really spar get tired they get desperate

silly $hit comes out

so there would have to be some bonding and getting to know each other and being honest about skill levels

leave the got something to prove stuff at the door




That was a very good post, like you need me too say so, a lot of people really need too read that over and over again.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

You were reading my mind, bro...

The "How to"...concerning the sparring needs to be discussed THOROUGHLY...beforehand.

For all the reasons you gave!

Here's my suggestion...fellas.

We start out all padded up...and as trust and familiarity develops (hopefully)...we gradually take the padding off.

Just a suggestion - but here it is:

1) thin fingerless gloves
2) groin cup
3) light-weight sneakers/shoes
4) shin and knee pads
5) headmask with cage
6) chest protector

And rules....(ie. - no strikes/kicks to the groin...to the back of the head, etc.)

AND START OUT SLOW AND EASY - BUILDING UP TO ABOUT 70% POWER.

Later on - if all goes well - just a mouth piece, groin cup and thin fingerless gloves...(or maybe even no gloves)...and pull the shots so that they only land about 50% power. (This way very little of the wing chun nuances will be lost due to "using protective equipment").

Now here's something else to consider (after A LOT of trust/comraderie has been established):

GO BACK to the fully padded thing...and go 90% power.

Would be glad to host the event (if you guys understand that you'll have to find hotel/motel accomodations)...and would demonstrate my ideas about sparring like this with some of my students...if you guys want to see it first.

And some of my guys could also do the karate/kickboxing/boxing/grappler thing - for those who want to spar against more than just wing chun.

Just some thoughts...

More than happy to travel also...if someone has a place where we could do the sleeping-bag in the training hall thing.

[Ernie]

well
i would be down , just have to heal the torn tendons in my arm
and keep myself in one piece for the big day :D

i can also supply boxing , kick boxing , Thai , savate energy at a decent level for guys to work there wing chun idea's i don't mind being a punching bag as long as people learn and the spirit and heart are in the right place ;)


so if i can keep healthy it's all good

either way i plan on heading back east and working with you cats any way , was hoping to get some ground skills under by belt first :D

[sihing]

Yes I agree with Ernie. You never know what happens when you hit someone, they might freak out or assume fetal postion, who knows. If I were to meet one on one with anyone here yeah we could possibly move around a bit, or discuss things and maybe some kinda random movements come about with it, but to go out and say, okay I want you and let's go now may get to confrontational for some. Personally, in situations where I meet with Martial artist I haven't meet before I sorta try to get to know them, and listen to what they have to say and let them state their view and try not to prove my own view to them, because really it doesn't matter to me what they think. If I find something of interest that the two of us have in common then I will pick up on that and then take it that way, but if someone thinks that round punches are better than straight ( just a e.g.) I'm not going to try and prove to them I'm right. Same with sparring, personally I'm not to intense about it at all, while some are right off the bat ( there's a student/apprentice in the school that gets intense about hitting the dummy, never mind sparring, for him its all or nothing), so that put me to a disadvantage, it's just my personality, but eventually if you keep trying to take my head off some more intensity will come out, but by that time it's not sparring anymore...

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Lookin' forward to it, Ernie.

Who else is interested?

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Ernie:

You were reading my mind, bro...

The "How to"...concerning the sparring needs to be discussed THOROUGHLY...beforehand.

For all the reasons you gave!

Here's my suggestion...fellas.

We start out all padded up...and as trust and familiarity develops (hopefully)...we gradually take the padding off.

Just a suggestion - but here it is:

1) thin fingerless gloves
2) groin cup
3) light-weight sneakers/shoes
4) shin and knee pads
5) headmask with cage
6) chest protector

And rules....(ie. - no strikes/kicks to the groin...to the back of the head, etc.)

AND START OUT SLOW AND EASY - BUILDING UP TO ABOUT 70% POWER.

Later on - if all goes well - just a mouth piece, groin cup and thin fingerless gloves...(or maybe even no gloves)...and pull the shots so that they only land about 50% power. (This way very little of the wing chun nuances will be lost due to "using protective equipment").

Now here's something else to consider (after A LOT of trust/comraderie has been established):

GO BACK to the fully padded thing...and go 90% power.

Would be glad to host the event (if you guys understand that you'll have to find hotel/motel accomodations)...and would demonstrate my ideas about sparring like this with some of my students...if you guys want to see it first.

And some of my guys could also do the karate/kickboxing/boxing/grappler thing - for those who want to spar against more than just wing chun.

Just some thoughts...

More than happy to travel also...if someone has a place where we could do the sleeping-bag in the training hall thing.

Some good ideas, but time is a constraint also. Say I come to the event and I want to spar with 3 people for sure, this could be a long process, and others may want to spar with these people too so as 1 person that could be more sparring than one wants to do, and then do only the two people that spar get the learning experience out of it? Is it possible to share all that is learned in get togethers like this with all that are there or is that too much to ask for...Lots to figure out but I like the idea of getting together and letting the past be the past and trying to make the WC as a whole a family again instead of war's between each other...

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

You're right, James...time would be a constraint.

probably couldn't do all that I suggested at one meeting.

We'll just have to work it out.

[SAAMAG]

So then perhaps maybe the first meeting should be just that...a meeting. People can get to know each other, practice forms, maybe some chi sau...drills would be an excellent way to get a feel for someone without having to worry about sparring full out...and then the sparring can come later amongst those who are comfortable with each other. Besides, it's hard to hide skill and we would all know who is who probably within an hour or working on various other things. That way there would be little apprehension and people would be more inclined to come I think if they don't have to worry about leaving with black eyes or worse. :D

With my idea, even if not ALL of us get to learn from EACH of us, a learning process and friendship is made, and we can always do it again. The first time of any event is usually trial and error anyway...

[Ultimatewingchun]

You also brought up some other good points that should be addressed as well, James...

"Would low leg attack be allowed"?

I should think so, James - but shin and knee pads are my reco for this.

"joint/neck manipulations and such"?

Only if it's understood between the two parties beforehand that this kind of thing should be done "with control"...(50% power at most).

"If two people at the meet want to full contact then fine let them go at it, with a ref, some are not into that. Some are intense and whether or not its real fighting or sparring, its all the same to them, and some are not like this. To me at a event like this I'm not thinking about fighting, but about learning something and experiencing others views and techniques."

I agree with this...and would only want to see FULL CONTACT (90%+) done while wearing all the protective gear and with a referee type who's ready, willing, and able to jump in and stop the action if necessary. (I play this role all the time when my students spar heavy contact with each other - and when they're doing it with me I make it my business to stop the action frequently if need be).

In truth though (upon reflection)...I wouldn't reco 90%+ at the first get together for anybody.

Too much could go wrong.

70% is plenty for a start-up event.

And mats should be used also, imo - for possible takedowns, sweeps, and throws to be done without injury.

As to groundfighting...I'm all for it...but only if it's agreed upon beforehand between the two parties - who are NOT wearing chest protectors and headgear (just too bulky for grappling).

Again...just some ideas.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally posted by Vankuen
So then perhaps maybe the first meeting should be just that...a meeting. People can get to know each other, practice forms, maybe some chi sau...drills would be an excellent way to get a feel for someone without having to worry about sparring full out...and then the sparring can come later amongst those who are comfortable with each other. Besides, it's hard to hide skill and we would all know who is who probably within an hour or working on various other things. That way there would be little apprehension and people would be more inclined to come I think if they don't have to worry about leaving with black eyes or worse. :D

With my idea, even if not ALL of us get to learn from EACH of us, a learning process and friendship is made, and we can always do it again. The first time of any event is usually trial and error anyway...


EXCELLENT POST, VAN.

You've got me thinking, now.

Just an ice-breaker at the beginning - and as you say...after some chi sao, drills, forms, etc...

perhaps sparring can come later on amoungst those who are comfortable with each other.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Vankuen
So then perhaps maybe the first meeting should be just that...a meeting. People can get to know each other, practice forms, maybe some chi sau...drills would be an excellent way to get a feel for someone without having to worry about sparring full out...and then the sparring can come later amongst those who are comfortable with each other. Besides, it's hard to hide skill and we would all know who is who probably within an hour or working on various other things. That way there would be little apprehension and people would be more inclined to come I think if they don't have to worry about leaving with black eyes or worse. :D

With my idea, even if not ALL of us get to learn from EACH of us, a learning process and friendship is made, and we can always do it again. The first time of any event is usually trial and error anyway...

This is a good idea and something along this line could be possible too...Talking, exchanging ideas on this forum is one thing... but when meeting face to face, getting familar with one another and exchanging ideas/techniques/chi-sao/stories/etc.. is a good approach also. If people want to meet after formal events are completed to spar or whatever then that is okay also, all I would recommend is that all who attend get allot of rest and sleep before hand because the days could be long...


James

[sihing]

Jeez...Too bad this wasn't Europe, easy access to everyone. I guess a central locale would be the logical place, for us in NA....Also for those that make a little bit of a living off teaching and such, you can possibly write the whole trip off as a learning seminar, so some of the cost could be made back...Any accountants on here???

James

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

if full contact is involved then things could easily escalate. . .

**You mean escalate into a fight? ;) God forbid.

[captain]

good:its for everyone.
bad:dull,white collar 'fighters' who offer an overbearing presence on sites.
ugly:young men going out and 'trying out' wc on smaller folk.[word].

Russ.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If full contact is involved then things could easily escalate. . .

**You mean escalate into a fight? God forbid." (Terence)

good: its for everyone.
bad: dull,white collar 'fighters' who offer an overbearing presence on sites.
ugly: young men going out and 'trying out' wc on smaller folk." (Russ)

.................................................. ...................................

What can I say?

You've got to start somewhere!

[t_niehoff]

Victor wrote:

You've got to start somewhere!

**There are some that "started" a while ago -- started mixing it up with MMAists and anyone else that would fight, working on finding better ways to train, etc.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Victor wrote:

You've got to start somewhere!

**There are some that "started" a while ago -- started mixing it up with MMAists and anyone else that would fight, working on finding better ways to train, etc.

I know...and those people are welcome to participate as well.

The more the better.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...so I think we've got a foundation to build upon...following Van's (and other's) suggestions:

1) A weekend get-together event (possibly in the middle of the country somewhere?...would be best for travel purposes).

2) In the springtime of 2005 (should give adequate time to organize, plan, and prepare).

3) All Wing Chun schools/lineages are welcome to come, to observe, and to participate.

4) No uniforms, sashes, logos, writing, titles used to introduce oneself or address other people...just some non-descript workout clothes and lightweight shoes/sneakers (helps keeps things relaxed and non-partisan).

5) People can get to know each other, practice forms, do some chi sau...and some other drills...as a way to get a feel for someone without having to worry about sparring full out. No pressure.

6) And then the sparring can come later on amongst those who are comfortable with each other. (Video cameras are welcome - for some overall individual/group analysis later).

7) Sparring could include both light-contact and/or heavy contact (with protective equipment being present and recommended) for those who want to do a heavier contact sparring.

8) Some people will be present who are willing and capable of using fighting methods other than wing chun...so when sparring - wing chun can be used against more than just other wing chun.

9) A non-partisan Wing Chun Get Together learning process is instituted and new friendships are made - and after some trial and error...

10) We can always do it again. And again. With the ultimate goal being that Wing Chun SPARRING/FIGHTING SKILLS are further developed in a mutually-supportive atmosphere.

[sihing]

Sounds like a good start Victor. Not sure about inviting people that are strictly non-WC people yet, at the first get together. This is about improving our own relationships and training within the family.

Terence,
If you think a fight breaking out between all or some of those that attend the event is a successful get together then that is your right, but to me that would be a disaster.. To each their own..

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Not sure about inviting people that are strictly non-WC people yet, at the first get together. This is about improving our own relationships and training within the family." (James)


I agree. What I meant was that we should try to have some wing chun people there (as has been discussed earlier...like Ernie...and some of my students, for example)...who can throw some non-wing chun moves at people while sparring.

And I suspect that Terence was speaking rhetorically...and with tongue in cheek.

Now the question is...

WHERE ?

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Not sure about inviting people that are strictly non-WC people yet, at the first get together. This is about improving our own relationships and training within the family." (James)


I agree. What I meant was that we should try to have some wing chun people there (as has been discussed earlier...like Ernie...and some of my students, for example)...who can throw some non-wing chun moves at people while sparring.

And I suspect that Terence was speaking rhetorically...and with tongue in cheek.

Now the question is...

WHERE ?

Good, glad we agree on that...I would think most of us can spar using non traditional WC methods, and of course it would nice for those that crosstrain in other arts to use those abilities against us.

Where? Another good question, hopefully more will get involved with this discussion and then we can see what arises then as to where and when....

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Where...would also have to correspond with not only a particular geographical place - but also with a host that people would be comfortable with.

Somebody who not only agrees with what we're trying to do (ie. - the 10 points)...

but who can be trusted to really play his part in seeing them implemented in a non-partisan manner...

which means that he is indeed just a "host" who's inviting people to come in and be treated as equals...

as long as those who come understand that what they've agreed to in advance (ie. - the 10 points...or whatever points we ALL finally agree upon)...will indeed be what's actually done.

After all - it's not a tournament wherein people/schools/lineages will walk away with trophies, and be written up in magazines.

It HAS be be non-partisan and non-political.

That's a tall order...I know.

But anything less will surely result in failure.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Where...would also have to correspond with not only a particular geographical place - but also with a host that people would be comfortable with.

Somebody who not only agrees with what we're trying to do (ie. - the 10 points)...

but who can be trusted to really play his part in seeing them implemented in a non-partisan manner...

which means that he is indeed just a "host" who's inviting people to come in and be treated as equals...

as long as those who come understand that what they've agreed to in advance (ie. - the 10 points...or whatever points we ALL finally agree upon)...will indeed be what's actually done.

After all - it's not a tournament wherein people/schools/lineages will walk away with trophies, and be written up in magazines.

It HAS be be non-partisan and non-political.

That's a tall order...I know.

But anything less will surely result in failure.

Yes Agreed....I'm sure that not only the person holding the event but others will help in administering it and making sure things are going along as planned....

James

[Phil Redmond]

Firstly Victor thanks for mentioning this thread to me. I hadn't read it. Your Good, Bad, and Ugly posts were very good imo. I'm training my students for sparring right now so I as well as some of my guys would be glad to participate. I/We can also supply some non-WC to test against.
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

So far...it seems as though the following people are showing interest in attending such an event:

Victor
Van
James
Phil
Ernie



...WHO ELSE ?


.................................................. ...........................


Perhaps this is the way to go about figuring out a location - by first seeing who will come...and where those people live...and then go about trying to find a host/location...based upon the theory that the closest distance between two points is a straight line.

I think I heard that somewhere...???

Or perhaps I should say...the midpoint between all the lines on the map that corresponds to all the people interested in coming...or something like that!!!

[SAAMAG]

You should delete this thread, and then start another one called "KFO Wing chun get-together", that way people that don't get on quite as often to debate...er...I mean talk about wing chun will be able to see it plain as day.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay Van...not exactly...but what I'll do is start another thread - but refer them to this one for all the details and background.

[mortal]

I would be very interested in attending this type of meeting.

Also I was wondering. Can we just get a bunch of NewYork area people together for a friendly session. Or even just to hang out and chat? Doing it nationally in the spring is cool, but I would rather do something around here before it gets too brisk.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sure mortal....why don't you post your name on the "10 Point Proposal" thread?

As to a NY get-together...pm or email me about it.

[mortal]

Will do. I missed it.