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Radok
11-25-2004, 04:42 PM
I am going to do my strength training using only bodyweight exercises for a while. But rather than doing exercises that only build endurance, I will be doing more advanced movements. This morning I did a few sets of handstand pushups with 15 total reps, going for 20 tommorro. I reached my goal for one handed pushups and got 5 on each side. Once I get ten one handers and 20 handstand pushups, I will add in hanging situps and start working on one handed pullups. Then add in one leg squats.

Has anyone else tried this kind of thing, and does anyone know some more strength based calisthenics?

Also, what are everyones' PRs on the above exercises? (I want to know where I stand.)

Toby
11-25-2004, 06:31 PM
Strength is usually associated with < 6 reps. So an exercise in which you can do 20 reps is moving into the endurance realm. Make it harder.

Serpent
11-25-2004, 09:57 PM
And start the pistols now. Why wait? Once you get good form and reps, add weight by wearing a backpack full of books of something like that. For maximal strength, you'll only ever get so far with b/w alone.

IronFist
11-26-2004, 12:26 AM
Wouldn't pistols + a backpack full of weight throw off your balance? People usually add weight in front of them (like holding a KB in front of them) when doing pistols. I'd think weight behind you like that would make you fall over backwards. I dunno, tho.

Radok, you're not going to beat weight lifting for strength development.

Ford Prefect
11-26-2004, 08:13 AM
Radock,

It'll be very hard to create the same amounts of tension that can be produced with external resistance. You'll certainly be able to make progress and gains, but IMO it will be limitted compared to the progress you could make with some sort of weights in the picture. I'd recommend building yourself a pair of parrellettes (PVC and glue costs about $15 for a pair) and do gymnastics movements with those and a pull-up bar. Lots of the movements require high amounts of muscular tension and have a natural progression that will make them harder as your strength increases.

For the legs, it's a lot harder. I'd say that sprinting and natural glute-ham raises are a must for any bodyweight only fitness program. That's still nothing compared to squats, deadlifts, and goodmornings though.

IF,

It's real hard but it's possible. I've done pistols holding clubbells behind my back and then pressing them over head at the bottom. It took a bit to get the balance dow, but it's do-able.

Serpent
11-26-2004, 04:17 PM
Yeah, what Ford said. I do pistols with dumbbels in different positions too to add to the exercise. If the backpack does throw your balance off, then just wear it in front.

Andy62
11-29-2004, 10:40 AM
Self resistance, virtual resistance, and isometrics

Radok
11-30-2004, 09:03 AM
Actually guys, I have a weight vest that goes up to 100 pounds, so Balance isn't an issue.

manofkent
12-02-2004, 07:09 AM
My gym instructer said that to work on muscle size and strenght ur looking at heavy weights <8reps, <4 if ur really serious. But if ur looking for explosive strength, do 15-20 reps with shorts rests. this tones the muscles and gives good shape, because your doing the movments quicker your shaping and strengthening the muscles. Heavy weights will impaire your speed as the muscle grows bigger that it should naturally be.

If you look at the phsique of decathleats (my spelling sucks, sorry) and gymnasts, thats about the best all round body a human can get. They are strong and powerfull, without loosing speed. Thats what we (as martial artists) should be aiming for, in my opinion.

Ford Prefect
12-02-2004, 07:37 AM
Your gym instructor is still subscribing to old gym myths.

15-20 reps will not make you explosively not will it "tone" or "shape" muscles. Kind of busy now, but I'm sure somebody will jump in and explain it to you.

manofkent
12-02-2004, 08:08 AM
I pretty sure hes right...

Its like... u do 8reps heavy weight bicep curl, to build to the muscle,
But you do 20+ sit-ups in various positions to tone your 6pack. cos u dont use huge weights and build stomach muscle or u just look fat.

Who here works the 6pack with heavy weights doing <6 reps???

and who here does 20+sit ups with there feet on a ball or bench???

Ford Prefect
12-02-2004, 09:25 AM
I'm 100% positive he's wrong...

Firstly, spot reduction is a myth. It does not work like that. You can't do 100's of crunches to cut fat from your abs. Your body burns fat from all over. It's not like by jogging, you'll only burn fat from your legs. It will burn fat from all over. Having a 6-pack or any muscle tone is a measure of body fat. If you have low body fat, then the muscle's shape can be seen through your skin. If you have a lot of body fat, then it won't.

A simple exercise is to take a peice of cloth and wrap it around your hand. You should be able to see the details of your hand through the cloth. Now stick a peice of cotton between your hand and the cloth. The details are now blurred. The more cotton, the less you will see them. In this case, the cloth is is your skin, cotton is fat, and your hand is your muscle.

You have to look at how the muscles energy systems and how the nervous system works.

We'll use your example of bicep curls. 8 reps... You feel that "burn"? You know what that's from? That's from lactic acid build up... You know where the lactic acid comes from? Well, this is how a muscle works. It will first go through it's ATP stores which is what cells including muscles use for energy. In this case, it's contracting. Once all that ATP is used up (this happens rather quickly), your muscles need large amounts of ATP to continue contracting. They get them from glycogen (basically sugar) that is stored in the muscle sarcoplasm (kind of a jelly like filler in the muscle). The by-product of converting glycogen to ATP is lactic acid... Feel the burn.

Now if you stress the muscles enough with these types of intense muscular contractions using that amount of energy, they will adapt. They will thing they'll need more "energy" to meet future demands, so they build more sarcoplasm to store more glycogen to give your muscles more energy. This actually has little effect on your max strength. It will allow you to lift weights longer longer though.

Thus, we just stumbled upon one of the TWO modes of muscular growth (ie hypertrophy) called sarcoplasmic hypertrophy

The actual contractile element of the muscle is in these cords called the myofabrils . They hook together to contract the muscle. They will respond to heavy stimulus as well. The higher the tension, the greater the adaptation. The easiest way to get more tension is to increase the weight. This will cause the myofabrils to respond by growing thicker to handle these heavier loads.

Thus, the second mode of muscular growth is myofabrillar hypertrophy . Since this is a thickening of the contractile proteins themselves, the muscle itself becomes denser of not more noticibly thinker. Think of turning a peice of cork into a peice of lead. Nothing grows, but the lead is obviously denser and stronger.

Now let's take a look at muscle "tone" again. To be "cut" you will need to have a low body fat. This is done simply by lowering your caloric intake to less than the body actually burns. This will cause a calorie deficit and force your body to go somehwere for it's energy. That somewhere will be your fat stores, since fat is basically just stored energy to be used in times of need. The easiest way to due is raise your calorie expendture by being more active. Most people do this by running, biking, etc.

Now that your body fat is low, muscles should be visbile. The bigger the muscle, the more visible it is. However, your muscles also need to be dense so the skin doesn't deform their appearance. Take a look at low weight class power lifters and olympic lifters. They are some dense looking indivuals from all the low rep training they do (ie 1-5 rep range)

Now since you brought up speed, let's take a look at it. What is speed exactly. What speed is is being able to apply a large amount of force over a very short amount of time. Doing 20 reps of low weight is the exact opposite of speed of training. You are having a very small muscle contraction (ie force) and training it over a long time (20 reps). How on earth will that allow you to have a maximal contraction in a short time? It won't.

The best way to maximize speed is to initially maximize strength. ie you must maximize how much weight you can lift for 1-3 reps. This is because your are creating a large amount of force in a short time that directly carries over to speed. Eventually you will reach a point where your speed will not be effected by strength gains. When this happens you take 45-60% of your 1 rep max (1RM) and lift it quickly 2-3 times in a row as quickly as possible. This will force your muscles to contract hard and quickly against the weight. Again this is a direct carry over to speed.

Just look at olympic sprinters, football players, etc. The train their speed with heavy weights and fast lifts like speed squats or olympic lifts. They are the fastest people and the highest jumpers in the world. Elite gymnasts are also trained in this fashion once the gymnastics movements themselves fail to effect the athletes' strength levels.

Anyway, I personally work my 6-pack with heavy weights for strength, explosiveness, and appearance. I do endurance work like you are talking about for endurance... nothing else. Your body adapts very specifically to the demands placed on it. No way will low amounts of force over long periods build your ability to create large amounts of force over a very short window.

He's wrong. All of whhat I wrote is generally common knowledge in strength training circles. This guy seems like he's still getting his info from 80's infomercials.

Chief Fox
12-02-2004, 09:28 AM
There are several schools of thougt on the whole strength building idea. If we look at your example of gymnasts having the best all around body a human can get. That really doesn't fall in line with the low weight high reps theory because gymnasts lift very little weights if they lift at all.

The suggestion of building a pair of paralettes is an excellent one.
Here's a link to how to build a pair:

LINK (http://www.drillsandskills.com/skills/cond)

The above web site also has a whole conditioning section and you don't need any equipment for most of the exercises.

Oh and here's a link to a parallette training program: LINK (http://www.american-gymnast.com/tt/paralletteguide/guide_beg.html)

Chief Fox
12-02-2004, 09:32 AM
Wow, nice post Ford.

**mental note: never disagree with Ford Prefect. **

Ford Prefect
12-02-2004, 09:40 AM
Sorry, Cheif. You are wrong as well.

I said tension causes the myofabrils to grow; not weight. I merely said adding weight is the easiest way to create tension. If you look at most gymnastic moves, you'll see that a high degree of tension is required to perform them. The tension alone will build large amounts of strength.

However, there comes a point where a gymnast has mastered the more difficult "strength moves" in gymnastics and will need to add weight to increase their strength. They will also need specific weighted exercises if they have a weak link that needs to be strengthenned in order to perform a specific movement. Most if not all elite gymnasts lift heavy weights.

Don't take my word for it:

Talk the United States Gymnastics: http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/1996/8/strength-training.html

Or perhaps read about how the Soviets trained their athletes from the very men who did the scientific study and research towards designing their programs:

Supertraining by Dr Mel Siff (phD in biomechanics and physiology. CSL honors in brain research) and Dr Yuri Verkoshansky (PhD in biomechanics. Pioneer of Soviet Style sports training in the USSR. Ever hear of plyometrics? Guess what? They were his idea. Why? BEcause they make you create large amounts of force over a very short time. Hmmm... sounds familiar)

Science and Practice of Strength Training by Vladamir Zatsiorsky (PhD biomechanics and former Soviet scientist and research in athletics performance. current biomechanics teach at Penn State U)

There are also more Verkoshanky works at dynamic-eleiko.com.

BTW, if you check my Raineer Prep log, you'll see I use parallettes for the very reasons I've been talking about here.

Chief Fox
12-02-2004, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Sorry, Cheif. You are wrong as well.

****!

D-A-M-N-!

** mental note: take your own advice when you make a mental note. **

manofkent
12-02-2004, 10:28 AM
Dude!!! Put the f**king text books down!

High reps work! They work for me and everyone i know.

Dont start patronising with all that cloth and cotton ****, we all understand what fat is.

There are a few guys at a bodybuilding gym ive been to and they do hevily wieghted crunches. There bellies look huge and they look fat under a t-shirt, but when they tense it all ripples up in to a massive 6 pack that actually juts out from the rib cage.

FngSaiYuk
12-02-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by manofkent
High reps work! They work for me and everyone i know.

Have you documented your explosive strength improvements using both methods (high reps vs low reps)? What IS your power to weight ratio and those of the people you claim have improved their explosive power via the high rep workouts?

Also, if the body has not trained heavily before, just about ANY intense training will result in considerable improvements. Once plateaued, the body will need more specific excercises to trigger further growth.

Every REALLY explosive person I've ever met train at very high loads with few reps.

Ford Prefect
12-02-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by manofkent
Dude!!! Put the f**king text books down!

High reps work! They work for me and everyone i know.

Dont start patronising with all that cloth and cotton ****, we all understand what fat is.

There are a few guys at a bodybuilding gym ive been to and they do hevily wieghted crunches. There bellies look huge and they look fat under a t-shirt, but when they tense it all ripples up in to a massive 6 pack that actually juts out from the rib cage.

Ummm.. If they are body builders then that is called a "distended belly". It's one of the side-effects of steroid use. The organs actually swell.

As FSK pointed out with his pointed question ;) , there is tons of research that has been done on this subject as well as empirical evidence through experimentation with athletes.

Go ask the olympic sprinters why they squat heavy and doing power cleans when they should really be doing high-rep stuff for their "speed and explosiveness". Go ask the high jumpers the same question. How about NFL players? Everybody knows they are extremely slow and sluggish.

If you want to continue to believe what you want to believe without any evidence supporting it, then be my guest. It's your body and your performance you're dealing with.

If you want to contend with scientific information and insist that I'm wrong, then post something of substance.

BTW, I wasn't trying to patronize you. By your posts, it seemed you were extremely uninformed, so I was just trying to cover all the bases rather than bringing up more questions. Sorry for trying to help. If I'm going to rank on somebody, I'll walk over to the next desk and bust that guy's chops. I won't hit the internet and take 10 minutes of my time to type a post.

Chief Fox
12-02-2004, 11:40 AM
Who here is glad they're not the guy at the next desk over from Ford? :D

Ford Prefect
12-02-2004, 11:46 AM
lol! I'm actually a huge goof ball and am usually cracking people up. New people I meet are usually surprised if biology, biomechanics, technology, philosophy, physics, or whatever comes up and I own them. ;) I come off like a cross between a jock/adrenaline junkie/goof ball.

manofkent
12-02-2004, 12:04 PM
Actually you come across as a Twat, who uses three words when he only needs one.

Ford Prefect
12-02-2004, 12:18 PM
I was talking about real life. Like I said, I was trying to help. You came off as uninformed, which made me use a thourough explanation, so the explanation itself didn't give you more questions. Call names all you want. It doesn't change the fact that I am right and you are wrong.

Neener neener neener.

:p

haha! j/k Seriously if you have any sort of evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to see it. It isn't about being right. It's about trying to stop misinformation. If you think I'm wrong, prove it. Pretty simple.

Vash
12-02-2004, 01:00 PM
Dayum. Ford Prefect just sprayed the correct all over this thread, and on manofkent's shoes.

Frikkin awesome.

As an aside, the msot reps I do for abs in a given set is 6. 5, though, is the average.

FngSaiYuk
12-02-2004, 01:12 PM
Vash, what ab excercises do you do?

Vash
12-02-2004, 03:04 PM
This cycle, I'm doing weighted crunches on a slanted board (5x5), Hanging Knee Raises (5x5) and Weighted Swiss Ball Crunches (5x5).

FngSaiYuk
12-02-2004, 03:45 PM
Rest period between sets?

Toby
12-02-2004, 08:33 PM
Lol @ this thread! Nice, Ford, nice. You control your aggression much better than I would.

manofkent, you should shut up and listen - you might learn something. First lesson: don't listen to the "gym instructor", he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Vash
12-02-2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
Rest period between sets?

30-60 seconds. 2 Minutes between each station.

FngSaiYuk
12-02-2004, 09:00 PM
kewl, tnx!

IronFist
12-02-2004, 11:49 PM
Well done, Ford.

What Ford wrote on the first page is better info than you would get from 99% of "exercise books" out there.

manofkent, abdominal definition, or any muscle's definition for that matter, is entirely a function of how low someone's bodyfat is, assuming the muscle is developed enough to be seen in the first place. It has nothing to do with high reps or low reps or heavy weights or light weights.

Everyone has a six pack, it's just that most people's are hidden under fat.

manofkent wrote:

High reps work! They work for me and everyone i know.

High reps work at building endurance in that exercise. Just because you do high reps and you have visible muscles does not mean the high reps caused the visible muscles. This is just like how if you wear a blue shirt and then it rains that day, it's not raining because you wore the blue shirt.


There are a few guys at a bodybuilding gym ive been to and they do hevily wieghted crunches.

So do a lot of gymnasts, powerlifters, and boxers.


There bellies look huge and they look fat under a t-shirt, but when they tense it all ripples up in to a massive 6 pack that actually juts out from the rib cage.

As Ford said, growth hormone use can cause the organs to expand and push the stomach out. Also, hypertrophied abdominal muscles can stick out, too.

The thing that no one has really addressed here is that gaining size has a lot to do with diet. Regardless of how your training program is, you're not going to grow if you don't eat enough. Just another factor to throw out there.

manofkent
12-03-2004, 12:01 AM
How am i supposed to know my gym instructer is wrong!!!????

If you walk in to a gym and dont know any better then u take the guys word for it, he's the one with the qualification!

Oh well, Im sorry, and will try to talk to hima bout what ur saying. Perhaps the gym instructers dont push you to do the more risky exersises and get u to do the easy, more rounded ones for safety.

Toby
12-03-2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by manofkent
How am i supposed to know my gym instructer is wrong!!!????Do independent research.

Originally posted by manofkent
If you walk in to a gym and dont know any better then u take the guys word for it, he's the one with the qualification!But what results does he have? Who does he train? Do these results match your targets? I'll wager a 30-50yr old housewife will be his average client*.

Originally posted by manofkent
Oh well, Im sorry, and will try to talk to hima bout what ur saying. Perhaps the gym instructers dont push you to do the more risky exersises and get u to do the easy, more rounded ones for safety. Maybe. Or maybe they just do whatever exercises the market wants (i.e. the latest circuit craze). You're partly right - a lot of gyms will actively discourage heavy weights and innovative training methods being used. If you don't do exactly what they expect, they get nervous. E.g. I think Ford or someone once said their gym didn't like someone bringing chains in with them (or maybe that was in an article I read). That's not to say heavy and innovative == dangerous - you just have to know what you're doing. It's probably more dangerous than 30 pushups on a swiss ball, though.


*By average client I mean if he does personal training. I'm sure there are knowledgeable guys who visit the gym, but most won't be asking for help from the gym instructor.

Becca
12-03-2004, 01:07 AM
The thing that no one has really addressed here is that gaining size has a lot to do with diet. Regardless of how your training program is, you're not going to grow if you don't eat enough. Just another factor to throw out there.

Some of us are growing the wrong way, though...

scotty1
12-03-2004, 03:35 AM
Wow. Good info on this thread.

Cheers Ford for that post. :)

Chief Fox
12-03-2004, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by manofkent
How am i supposed to know my gym instructer is wrong!!!????

If you walk in to a gym and dont know any better then u take the guys word for it, he's the one with the qualification!


This is an excellent point! Most people who walk into a gym off the street and then is introduced to the local "fitness expert" would take what the "expert" is saying as truth.

Very few would would question what the "expert" had to say.

Everyone doesn't need to jump on "manofkent" here. He was simply repeating information that he was given and has worked for him.

The real problem is some of the so-called professionals in the fitness instruction industry. A lot are working with bad or out dated information, a lot simply don't know what they're talking about.

It's up to all of us to arm ourselves with information and start asking more questions. Thanks to Ford for all of the information he's presented here.

I think it's time to layoff of "manofkent". At this point he is probably feeling like he's being attacked.

manofkent
12-03-2004, 11:29 AM
Thanks Chief.

But its ok, i can take it. I know i was wrong, and i dont think anyone was out of order what they've said to me.

I do apoligise for calling Ford a twat.

I was talking to my gym instructer today... He has been a gym instructer for 2yrs and doesnt do any free weight training himself. He was educated and certifyed by a major company, so you guy are right... The gym would not want him to start giving out heavy training programs.

Ive got a question on another threat, but i think it old and no1s replyed...

I dont have the time or money to eat high protien meals after a every workout, so ive been using a natural whey protien. Problem is, it made me put on fat when i had 2 shakes a day. so now i just have one after a heavy weight work out (3times a week) and no other time. Is this a good idea or is there a better way of doing it???

I do upper body weights and core muscles on day 1 (PROTIEN SHAKE)

lower body weight and cardio work on day 2

Tai-chi only on day 3

fa_jing
12-03-2004, 11:51 AM
one after your workout is fine. Play around with it and see if you can achieve whatever your desired effect is. What's your goal again? Do you want to gain weight, lose weight, gain strength, gain endurance, etc.? How would you prioritize your goals?

Ford Prefect
12-03-2004, 12:01 PM
No worries. I would have been defensive in your situation too. That's why I didn't say anything. Just ribbed ya a little. ;)

Kind of a complicated question you asked. What does you exact diet look like? List your typicals meals throughout the day and when you workout.

manofkent
12-03-2004, 02:15 PM
i'll have to go in to detail tomo.

priorities in order.
1 strength
2 body shape (thus want fat% down)
3 heart rate down

stubbs
12-03-2004, 03:49 PM
Hey manofkent,

Is the instructor you were talking to from David Lloyd by any chance?

What do you mean by strength? Raw strength? Are you trying to add muscle while you're at it?
________
LESBIAN GIRL (http://www.****tube.com/categories/730/girl/videos/1)

manofkent
12-04-2004, 06:31 AM
Hi stubbs, bin a while.

R u thinking of Chris? He work at the village gym now. He's gonna take up kung fu with dave. He used to do hap-ki-do

stubbs
12-04-2004, 10:33 AM
Chris who? I just thought the fitness instructor you were talking to might have been from David Lloyd. Gyms like David Lloyd give me the impression that the instructors don't really know what they're talking about, they're mainly there to give moral support for the average overweight 40 year old business man or woman to keep them coming to the gym.

Anyhoo... How's the training going? I spent a little while training at the Kixx Martial Arts gym and also went to Thailand for a while. I'm training on my own at the moment but I think I'll go join up with Niel again next spring. Do you still train with Dave?
________
MIKE PARKES (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Mike_Parkes)

manofkent
12-04-2004, 10:55 AM
Im taking a break to work on my strength for a while. Still training on my own, mainly tai chi.

Your pretty much right, there are there for moral support mainly. but i enjoy the use of the facilities.

I'm going to thailand in the spring, just a hol with parents but taking the opertunity to look at some "real" MA.!!!

Also looking to visit beijing in the summer, should be good fun, and hard work!!!

Toby
12-05-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Chief Fox
This is an excellent point! Most people who walk into a gym off the street and then is introduced to the local "fitness expert" would take what the "expert" is saying as truth.

Very few would would question what the "expert" had to say.That's no problem for most people. But it's not alright for me. I don't lift like most people. Neither do most people here - we fit into a minority.


Originally posted by Chief Fox
Everyone doesn't need to jump on "manofkent" here. He was simply repeating information that he was given and has worked for him.His attitude was a little aggressive, so he received response in kind.


Originally posted by Chief Fox
The real problem is some of the so-called professionals in the fitness instruction industry. A lot are working with bad or out dated information, a lot simply don't know what they're talking about.Again, that's fine for most people. stubbs said it best:
Originally posted by stubbs
... instructors don't really know what they're talking about, they're mainly there to give moral support for the average overweight 40 year old business man or woman to keep them coming to the gym.Fits my opinion of the vast majority of personal trainers/gym instructors perfectly.

Andy62
12-09-2004, 09:32 AM
http://sfuk.tripod.com/articles_02/mighty_men.html

Toby
12-09-2004, 06:04 PM
You're an idiot.

Andy62
12-09-2004, 06:31 PM
Have you ever heard of the psychological principle of "projection" where you project you traits to others?

Toby
12-09-2004, 06:41 PM
No, I haven't. Why don't you just post a URL about it with no comment, question or experience?

Andy62
12-10-2004, 12:30 AM
Toby, Good idea. That is what I will do the next time.

Ford Prefect
12-10-2004, 06:46 AM
Pretty bad articles at that. Dunno. He could be trolling. I'd definately feel like a sucker.

Andy62
12-10-2004, 07:25 AM
Renzo Gracie (of Gracie Brazilian JuiJitsu fame) the no holds barred champion recommends bodyweight training and uses only very light weights much the same as the turn of the century boxers and wrestlers did such as Jack Dempsey and Farmer Burns.

John McSweeney who developerd "Tiger Moves" from ancient kungfu tensing exercises and is a member of the martial arts hall of fame used exclusively body weight. These are the exercises currently being promoed by John Peterson of Bronze Bow Publishing who incidently is coming out with a new book"The Ultimate Isometric Power Challenge" in January 2005. It can currently be pre ordered on Amazon.com

Different things work for different people and you have to keep your minds open to get to the cutting edge.

FngSaiYuk
12-10-2004, 07:39 AM
Andy, I think what you're arguing for and what the guys in this particular forum are looking for are rather different. You're citing a lot of info on fighters using bodyweight excercises. The Training and Health forum tend to focus on the REAL cutting edge when it comes to strength training, which is VERY different from the conditioning of fighters.

Most of the fighters that are in the ring are more concerned with stamina, muscular endurance and speed. Yes, you'd think that this would be interesting in a Kung Fu Training & Health forum, but it appears that this forum have gone past that and whenever STRENGTH training is the focus, bodyweight and isometric excercises take a back seet to plyometrics and explosive power training involving considerable tension, which eventually mean MORE than bodyweight.

Anyways, yes, bodyweight excercises will build strength, but there is a limit and to go past that limit you'll end up adding weights. And yes isometrics will strengthen you at first, but again there's a point where you want to build strength through a greater range of motion and so you'll want to apply load to create greater tension over the full range of motion of whatever movement you want to increase your strength in.

Again, ring fighters and wrestlers are more concerned with maximizing their stamina/endurance over their absolute strength (once you get to the 'more than adequate' amount of strength).

Ford Prefect
12-10-2004, 08:42 AM
Andy,

I've trained with Renzo and know first-hand what he uses to train. He actually does lift weights or did when I trained with him. Some guys like BWE's, some guys like weights, some guys don't really do either and just train, etc. It's not a question of what guys prefer. It's a question of how each effects your body.

The human body reacts to resistance training the same way through the genders, races, etc. Just like some people don't build their VO2Max (cardiovasular efficiency) by sitting on a couch smoking, people don't build maximal strength by doing low resistance exercises past certain points. There is really no mystery to the mechanisms behind muscle growth, strength increase, neuro-muscular coordination, etc. If you come on here and state something that is patently false, you'll be called on it.

BTW:

"Renzo Gracie: I do everyday a lot of boxing and weight lifting. Swimming also, it helps me out with the cardio."

http://www.sherdog.com/interviews/renzogracie_01/gracie.htm

BTW, The above proves nothing. Like I said, some guys prefer different things. Some people like hiking and some people like power lifting. It's a preference thing. How each effects the human body is scientific and is constant...

IronFist
12-10-2004, 08:48 AM
^ D.amn, I wanna train with Renzo. Every day I get more ****ed off that there's no MMA places around here. My last MMA class where I used to live was 9 months ago. I've forgotten everything on the ground :(

FatherDog
12-10-2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Andy,

I've trained with Renzo and know first-hand what he uses to train.
...

"Renzo Gracie: I do everyday a lot of boxing and weight lifting.

Renz0wned!

Andy62
12-10-2004, 10:53 AM
That is not what Renzo Gracie says in hiw book "Mastering Judo." He recommends bodyweight exercises and very light weights.

fa_jing
12-10-2004, 11:02 AM
What is your point? I think everybody agrees that Bodyweight exercises are good for conditioning. We are even saying that challenging bodyweight exercises like one-arm pullups, one-arm pushups, one-legged squats, handstand pushups, and gymnastic exercises can be used for strength.

Andy62
12-10-2004, 11:07 AM
I totally agree