Tai Chi wins in MMA

[Liokault]

www.cagewarriors.com (Cage Rage 9 results)


Sami Berik wins over Abdul Mohamed with a TKO (cut eye).

Not the best win but at least we have a (real) tai chi guy in Pro MMA.


(CAGE RAGE 9)

[jun_erh]

bad link

[Chang Style Novice]

Mohammed is lucky he didn't get worse!

Taijiquan is, after all, too deadly for the ring.

Edit - yeah, links not working, and I can't find too much current info.

[Liokault]

Cant make link work, but it was only the results page. If your that interested its cagewarriors.com

[WanderingMonk]

http://www.cagewarriors.com/page.asp?ID=588

[ngokfei]

found some bio info but it also shows a strong background in Kickboxing, Wing Chun and Wrestling. so Just how much tai chi??

NAME: Sami Berik
WEIGHT: 75kg (Welterweight)
COUNTRY: Turkey
TEAM REPRESENTS : Tai Chi Renaissance
MMA RECORD: 2-3-0
UC RECORD: 1-3-0
STYLE: San Shou, Tai Chi

Sami Berik has become an Ultimate Combat regular and has appeared on nearly every single Ultimate Combat event since Ultimate Combat 6. Sami has come represent the pure Traditional Martial Artist in MMA. His background consists of an esoteric blend of Wing Chun, San Shou (full contact Kung Fu), stand-up wrestling and Tai Chi. Berik, originally from Turkey , is a San Shou Champion and holds a San Shou record of 10-5-0 . Sami is also an Internationally decorated Tai Chi representative who recently won a Gold Medal in The European Tai Chi Championships. Berik maintains that Tai Chi is a fundamental part of his fighting method as it provides a sensitivity of movement and strong foundation. Berik has improved with every single Ultimate Combat outing and has gained valuable experience by facing top level opponents such as submissions wizard Mark Spencer, the fearsome Vale Tudo master Kevin O'Hagan and hard man Phil MacCall.
Sami Berik has just returned from Greece where he was on holiday. While over there he saw a poster advertising a Greek MMA event. Berik went along to watch and after introducing himself to the promoter as an Ultimate Combat fighter, was asked to fight in an impromptu bout. Even though he had the odds stacked against him which included giving away nearly 10kg in weight to his opponent, the language barrier at the rules reading and thinking it was just an amateur (no head shot) bout. Berik only realised it was a full Professional rules bout once he had been mounted and had punches reigning down on his face. Sami immediately reversed and locked his opponent up with a Kimura. Berik was declared the winner. Clearly a testament to his improved ground game.


:D

[Chang Style Novice]

Sounds like a pretty typical mix-and-match set of chinese barehand fighting styles - tai chi and wing chun led him to san shou, which helped him pick up some shuai (if not literal shuai chiao), then with some ground skills added he made the jump to MMA. That's about what I'd expect a CMA guy competing in MMA to have. I guess he emphasises tai chi either because he finds it a valuable skill set, or he's trying to get his opponents to underestimate him as a silk PJ enthusiast who flaps his arms in the park twice a week. Or maybe even some of each.

Anyway, good on him for racking up a respectable (if not exactly world championship level [YET!]) record.

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, it's really cool when TMA guy's step up to the challenge of MMA competition and do well. I was really excited when Jason Delucia brought Aikido to MMA. He's even got some training videos out that've got fight footage on 'em.

http://www.bytomic.com/detail.asp?urn=1943

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by ngokfei
found some bio info but it also shows a strong background in Kickboxing, Wing Chun and Wrestling. so Just how much tai chi??
Sami is also an Internationally decorated Tai Chi representative who recently won a Gold Medal in The European Tai Chi Championships. Berik maintains that Tai Chi is a fundamental part of his fighting method as it provides a sensitivity of movement and strong foundation.Sure, he uses other things too, but if he makes a point of saying that tai chi is important to him then why second-guess him? What does he have to gain by lying? The hope that lots of other people will take up tai chi so he can beat their weak time-wasting asses?! :D

Fair play to him.


Samurai Jack
Yeah, it's really cool when TMA guy's step up to the challenge of MMA competition and do well.Joke: How many Ts does it take to be an M?

Yeah it's cool when TMAs are used in the ring, like tai chi, like jujutsu, like muay thai, like boxing... :D ;)

[David Jamieson]

I think more and more tma-ists will step up eventually.

It is getting tiring listening to the dead horse debate.

It is doubly tiring infact.

Please someone end it.

[Shooter]

nobody does "(real) Tai Chi" in MMA

[Liokault]

I know Sami quite well and as far as I know he is only training in tai chi now. His teacher Neil Rosak (spelling may be wrong) trained with a quite well known MMA guy....ill remember his name later and has aso done some cage fighting. This dosent stop him having some odd ideas about MMA.

[Ray Pina]

What is "real Taiji"?

Taiji is a set of principles, like flying, it can be expressed countless ways ... mono-plane, bi-plane, jet plane, helicoper, glider....

[Liokault]

Well Evofist, u stick to your 'bi' tai chi.....ill stick to my hetro tai chi:D

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Liokault
This dosent stop him having some odd ideas about MMA.

okay, I'll bite. what are these odd ideas?

[Liokault]

I have been trying to fing the quote from him (to me)on a wudang tai chi forum, but it basicaly went aslong the lines of

"a mma isnt that good at tack downs, a tai chi guy can defend against a mma(ists) takedown in a fight so we dont need to concentraight on ground fighting."

Suprising from a guy who trained with Lee Hasdell (i finaly rememberd his name but prob spelt it wrong) and who has faught MMA him self.

[Ford Prefect]

The guy is 2-3 (1-3 not counting a match at some random Greek show). I wouldn't point to him as being the proof of anything yet. It'd be interesting to see how he develops though.

[Ray Pina]

A football team can go the whole season without a win, that doesn't mean the players aren't NFL caliber.

I would think you'd need some game before you'd willingly put yourself in that situation.

[Ford Prefect]

"A football team can go the whole season without a win, that doesn't mean the players aren't NFL caliber."

Horrid anology if you are talking about an NFL team.

1) NFL is a team sport. One player can excel while the rest of the team bites, thus negating any chances for a win for that player.
2) NFL players excelled most likely in high school and then certainly in college. Div 1 football is hard enough to even make a team nevermind to make it in the pro's.
3) NFL is the top tier of an extremely selective process. Only top athletes with top skills can make it that far.

This guy is 1-3 fighting in what would be considered the minor leagues of pro MMA. That one win being stoppage due to a cut... If a boxer only wins 25% of the time against low-mid level competition, are you going to say he's any good? If a wrestler only wins 25% of his matches in local & state tournies, how do you think he'd fair regionally, nationally, or globally? Etc

He sounds like he has potential, and I'd like to see him do well and get to a big show against decent competition. It'd be interesting to see the difference in tactics and technique. I was just saying that boasting about a TMA guy winning in MMA when he's only 1-3 (due to a cut... 2-3 counting a random local greek show/are there even any names or details of that?) is a bit foolish.

Look at the BJJ camp. If a BJJ guy goes 1-3 in comp like that, nobody would be giving him any props. They'd wait until he actually acccomplished something or reserve their enthusiasm for somebody wrecking the competition every time out.

[IronFist]

I didn't really read this thread.

Does what he does look like Tai Chi? Cuz you could be a boxer or shuai jiao guy and say you do Tai Chi but that doesn't make it Tai Chi.

And don't start with the "well, what if the boxer uses Tai Chi principles..." If he's in a boxing stance, throwing boxing punches, he's using boxing principles. If they happen to coincidentally be the same as Tai Chi principles, that's great. But if they're not exclusive to Tai Chi they don't count as "Tai Chi princples."

[Ray Pina]

If a boxer wins 25% of his minor/amatuer league fights, I WOULD say he's pretty good, better than 99.9 percent of the folks on the board TALKING about it.

If a professional wide receiver didn't catch a single TD pass all year, I would say he's run into some bad luck, maybe drawing double coverage, maybe even injured, but I'd bet if he's playing at that level, again, he's better than 99.9 percent of the fat fu(ks sitting at home drinking a beer talking about it.

The ring/cage is its own quality control .... who here enters it because they just happen to feel like it one day? There is a whole lot behind that decision to enter .... and exit in one piece.

I don't know the man either, but his actions -- even unseen -- speak enough to me to gain my respect.

[Ray Pina]

I always find these comments funny. What do you expect to see, a scene out of Courching Tiger Hidden Dragon? For the guy to move in slow motion?

Taiji is a way of aligning your body, it's about body structure, it's about not apposing force .... all qualities any good fighter should have. Some get there doing boxing, karate, BJJ. This guy is saying he got there doing Taiji. What's the big deal?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by IronFist
Does what he does look like Tai Chi? Cuz you could be a boxer or shuai jiao guy and say you do Tai Chi but that doesn't make it Tai Chi.

And don't start with the "well, what if the boxer uses Tai Chi principles..." If he's in a boxing stance, throwing boxing punches, he's using boxing principles. If they happen to coincidentally be the same as Tai Chi principles, that's great. But if they're not exclusive to Tai Chi they don't count as "Tai Chi princples."

[IronFist]

Hell, why don't we call BJJ "karate" then. Or we could refer to Muay Thai as "kung fu." I mean, they both involve striking, and blocking, therefore they must be the same, right?

[IronFist]

I always heard Tai Chi used in fighting is performed quickly. I've seen Erle Montaigue do some fast stuff, so, no, I wouldn't assume Tai Chi would be done slowly in a fight. But I would assume it would look like Tai Chi, ie. p'eng, or beauty looks in the mirror or something, and not jab cross from a boxing stance.

[Ford Prefect]

"If a boxer wins 25% of his minor/amatuer league fights, I WOULD say he's pretty good, better than 99.9 percent of the folks on the board TALKING about it."

lol! Actually, I boxed for my college's team. Although I came a few years later, it's the only national championship my school had ever won. I won a far cry more than 25% of my matches (all amateur under the USABA and NCBA) and I wouldn't consider myself anything special at all.

Even so, if a guy is hitting .200 in high school, it doesn't take Tommy LaSorda to point out that he's not quite ready for the pro's. All this is besides the point though. We are talking about his PRO record; not amateur. Big difference.

"If a professional wide receiver didn't catch a single TD pass all year, I would say he's run into some bad luck, maybe drawing double coverage, maybe even injured, but I'd bet if he's playing at that level, again, he's better than 99.9 percent of the fat fu(ks sitting at home drinking a beer talking about it."

There could be countless reasons. His QB may be horrid. He may be double covered. They may have great red zone running. His O-line may bite, thus never allowing the QB enough time to get the ball off. All valid reasons that have NOTHING to do with him or his performance. The very reason why you can't compare a one-on-one match to a team sport. I know I heard this somewhere....

BTW, lol @ you if you are implying I'm inactive.

"I don't know the man either, but his actions -- even unseen -- speak enough to me to gain my respect."

I whole-heartidly agree. I respect anybody that has the motivation, discipline, work ethic, and drive needed to be successful in the pro level of most sports. (I don't know if curling has a pro division, but I'd have a hard time respecting it ;) ). This is even more so to fighting because it's just you out there with no teammates to fall back on, and there is something a lot more personal about getting beat down than losing a baseball game.

I just though the thread title was a little miselading and he is long ways from being any proof of TMA's effectiveness. "Tai Chi wins in MMA!" (a quarter of the time to low-mid level pro's) ;) Not quite a rallying cry.

[Ray Pina]

I would call Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ, Tai Boxing the same thing .... I'd call them Martial Arts. They're all kicking and punching and throwing. It's just how they go about it. Usually, I can tell a Tai Boxer by the way he holds his hands up, a karate guy by a favored forward, sided stance. I've seen BJJ take both. Tai Ji guys are different. It's not a look or posture. That's the problem. The Taiji you are talking about and what I'm talking about are different. I'm not talking about 13, 24, 365 postures. I'm talking about how to ward off, how to issue force, how to absorb.... I've seen boxers absorb beautifully.

I've been training internal now for a few years, I don't know one form. I just know I'm a better fighter than I was 4 years ago. I'm stronger, more secure in my structure, more direct in my movement. Take a picture .... you won't see San Ti or drill fist. You'll see power straights and uppercuts, you'll see picking up and pressing down.

[Liokault]

It dont matter if he looks like Tai chi or not. It dont even matter (for those that read a review of the fight) that he was dominated and slammed throughtout the fight and only won by opening a cut on the guys face with a dubious elbow strike.


What matters is that he went in and won against against a more experianced mma guy on his first fight and what really matters is that we have cma in there doing it!!

[Liokault]

You can decide if he looks like tai chi or not as Cage Rage 9 will be on TV (at least in the UK)

[IronFist]

It probably won't be on TV in the states. At least not on free TV. Can someone post a vid or take pictures of the TV or something?


I would call Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ, Tai Boxing the same thing .... I'd call them Martial Arts. They're all kicking and punching and throwing. It's just how they go about it. Usually, I can tell a Tai Boxer by the way he holds his hands up, a karate guy by a favored forward, sided stance. I've seen BJJ take both. Tai Ji guys are different. It's not a look or posture. That's the problem. The Taiji you are talking about and what I'm talking about are different. I'm not talking about 13, 24, 365 postures. I'm talking about how to ward off, how to issue force, how to absorb.... I've seen boxers absorb beautifully.


If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

[Liokault]

So your saying that if he quacks like a duck hes a boxer?


Would you know kung fu if you saw it? I dont mean a guy doing a form.
If you put a wrestler in a streetfight how much wrestling would you be able to pick out and how much would look like brawling?


just to add more fule to the fire heres a right report:

Welterweight
Abdul Mohamed vs. Sami Berik
CageWarriors WW champ Mohamed has recently jumped teams and now trains with Ian Freeman. An Afgahnistani monster with a wrestling background, he seemed easily equipped to deal with the guy who lists himself as a Tai Chi fighter, Sami Berik. In fact another sweepstake was running the press area, this time how long before Abdul put Berik’s head through the mat via a suplex.
Indeed, it took no more than a blink of an eye before Abdul had shot in and hoisted Berik into the air. Forcefully slamming the young Londoner to the mat, he found his head trapped in a desperate guillotine. Picking Berik way up from the mat, he slammed his way out and scrambled to take the back.

The awaited moment came and we in the audience had a flashback to how we felt when it seemed Randleman was slamming Fedor to the hospital. Abdul had lifted Berik high and launched him over in a belly-to-back suplex that had half the crowd cheering, the other half going “ooooh”. Somehow, Berik’s neck remained in one piece, but he found himself picked up and dumped again. I was thinking of WWE and considering exactly how many of those slams a human being could endure before serious injury occurred, and while doing some quick calculations in my head saw the Ref pulling the two apart.

Some confusion reigned, and we saw blood- but unexpectedly, the blood belonged to Abdul. Berik had elbowed him above the eye while on his back in guard, and re-opened an old gash.
Winner: Berik by TKO (Doctor’s stoppage) 2.41 Rd 1
Well, wow. I mean, wow. WOW. Berik didn’t get killed, and somehow managed to win in the process? Freaky stuff.

[SevenStar]

I think the issue here is that a CMA did something, which these days, is rare in the mma world. If cma entering mma comps was a regular occurrence, then there would likely be no commotion about it at all - no more than you would get from hearing about a thai boxer winning a kickboxing match. Maybe in a few years, what this guy is doing will be the norm...only time will tell.

[Liokault]

My point exactly seven.

Its not important that if he wins or not, or even how he wins. Whats important is that its being done.

[Ray Pina]

Ford, I wasn't implying that at all. I don't know you, but the impression I get is that you know something. And if you were boxing for a college team, and not just a club, I'm expecting you were quite good.

Hell, I played college ball for oen year and didn't stand out there but in HS I was First Team All State, ect., etc.

My point is, just like the wide receiver who may have had a bad QB or $hitty O-line, an 0-5 MMA fighter could have faced very good fighters with lots of experience, zigged when he should have zagged in that crucial moment, got a bad call, etc. etc. Doesn't mean the guy doesn't have something.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by delibandit
I should know better than to post, because it's like beating my head against the wall. What is Taiji (Tai Chi) suposed to look like? Please tell me, I'd like to know.

Well, if it looks like boxing or it looks like Muay Thai, why is it called Taiji?

When you see someone doing Wing Chun, how can you tell it's Wing Chun? When you see someone doing Muay Thai, how can you tell it's Muay Thai? If you see someone boxing, you know it's boxing and not Taiji.


What if I encountered a BJJ guy who totally sucks and see him get his ass beat? Does that mean it's fair for me to assume that BJJ is ineffective and uselss as a fighting art?

No. But if every BJJ guy always lost you might do better proving your point.


I learn Wu style Taijiquan. No, I can't fight with it yet. It just takes a lot of time to alter your natural reactions for effective defence. Years and years actually.

I don't want this to turn into a this style vs. that style debate, but if it requires altering your "natural reactions," is it really that good of an idea? If it takes "years and years" to develop fighting ability, how good of a "martial art" is it? Guys in a boxing gym usually spar on their first day (first week at least). How much would boxing suck as a martial art if it took years and years before you could use it?


But that being said, Taiji is really about principles of movement and sensitivity. In Taiji, you hit however. With a punch, a kick, a throw, whatever. It doesn't matter.

So you could be doing boxing and it would still be Taiji if it fit the taiji principles of "hitting and defeating your opponent?"


What matters is that Taiji seeks to deal with the opponents force in the most efficient way possible, using minimum force to do so.

That's kind of the same with all martial arts.


It is common for a skilled Taiji guy to intercept a force, sense the movement, borrow the force, disrupt the opponent's root, then deliver a crushing blow, which could be a punch, a palm, a throw, or a kick.

Have you seen people do that against full speed, non-choreographed attacks from trained non-students?


Taiji is so misunderstood in this country. It is sad. Actually, an understanding of Taiji principles makes whatever you do, BJJ, Muay Tai, Boxing, etc. better, because it improves sensitivity and use of force. Afterall, a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick. That's not the important part, it's how you deal with the opponent's force that is the difference between taiji and say muay tai on a basic level.

I suppose you have a point. But you can't say some guy doing Muay Thai is doing Taiji just because he is sensitive or whatever.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by delibandit
It is common for a skilled Taiji guy to intercept a force, sense the movement, borrow the force, disrupt the opponent's root, then deliver a crushing blow, which could be a punch, a palm, a throw, or a kick. Taiji is so misunderstood in this country. It is sad. Actually, an understanding of Taiji principles makes whatever you do, BJJ, Muay Tai, Boxing, etc. better, because it improves sensitivity and use of force. Afterall, a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick. That's not the important part, it's how you deal with the opponent's force that is the difference between taiji and say muay tai on a basic level.


That's not really different. borrowing and yielding are both concepts you learn in thai boxing and bjj. The difference is that they didn't take the time to define it. A thai boxers may yield and borrow, but he doesn't realize that's what he's doing, because it's not a defined principle.

[IronFist]

Then get some hardcore gung fu or taiji guys from China or whatever hardcore school you want to fight in NHB and win.

Even if you ask a high level taiji guy, there's no way to find out if it's for real or not without actually fighting. Anyone can say "oh yeah, I'd do such and such if you did that move," but that's no better than a typical McDojo class. And most taiji guys wouldn't want to fight to prove their art is better.

I'm not ruling it out completely. A BJJ guy could take a taiji guy down and have mounted him and the taiji guy does some palm technique and ruptures the BJJ guy's kidneys. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not likely.

Plus, that stuff is "too deadly for the ring," isn't it :) :cool: ;)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by delibandit
Your missing my point. Taiji is not a collection of special techniques or punches.

Then why have those forms with all the "Taiji moves?"

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm not real sure I give a sh!t what taijiquan is and what it ain't, and I have some reason to think that I do the stuff. Personally I think of it more as a set of strategies than a set of techniques, but you have to learn the techniques to understand and develop proficiency with the strategies. I think that's probably not too different from most MAs, although I haven't studied anything else, really.

Anyway, I'm really posting here to say it's too bad that the victory was um...less than gloriously decisive, let's say. Still, I'm glad that someone from CMA is out there busting some ass in mma, even if they're only doing it accidentally.

[Shooter]

5-steps is what distinguishes tjq from other systems in the ring...real tjq, that is.

[Chang Style Novice]

Can you elaborate on "5-steps" please?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
The ring/cage is its own quality control .... who here enters it because they just happen to feel like it one day? I've done that quite often.

IF the guy is tai chi (plus anything else) and he is continually entering MMA competitions, he will he heads above the other 99% of MA practitioners who have never done so themselves.

delibandit-
You are a brainwashed newbie. The instructor who is taking your money and filling your heaad with that rubbish should have to face someone in one of those "less advanced" arts that he talks about in front of his students.

[Shooter]

CSN, no. I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to the subtleties of tjq and ring-fighting. I just pretend to practice it for the mystique factor.

[MoreMisfortune]

lol :D

kick ass, brother

[Shooter]

:D

[Chang Style Novice]

Shooter - I don't mean to be sarcastic. I know you've posted a lot, but I don't remember this particular buzzword, and I haven't encountered it from my teacher either.

A link to an older explanation would be fine.

[Shooter]

Oh don't you worry, CSN. That particular buzzword will make its way into the vernacular of lots of tjq people soon enough.

But seriously, I'm just maing that 5-steps stuff up. I didn't really have a teacher, so I have to fill the gaps with my own imagination.

Nobody knows much about the 5-steps because they aren't mentioned in the classics....but then again, they are. The classics scream 5-steps.

[Mr Punch]

Hi Shooter.

By all accounts you re a good fighter who uses tai chi. Fair enough.

But I ve been on this board for about four years and I don t remember you ever posting anything in details about the Five Steps. I always read your posts with interest cos you often have useful things to say, and my ears ***** up when you mention the Five Steps... ahh, at last we get treated to what it is!

Then you re always like, ah, you wouldn t understand, or it would cause too much trouble or or whatever...

so when is the soon enough in 'That particular buzzword will make its way into the vernacular of lots of tjq people soon enough.' and by what means... since you aint talking? Osmosis?!:)

[Mr Punch]

BTW Iron, you're forgetting that there's a hell of a lot of crossover in martial techs, given that there are only so mant ways a body can move.

So, if it looks like boxing to you (who doesn't do tai chi) yet the practitioner can explain every move in tai chi terms, blow by blow through the match... then it's probably tai chi, or he's a **** good faker!

In this case, Sami whojamaflip hasn't explained every move, but he says he does tai chi. Like I said, what's he got to gain by lying?

The more valid points are, he got his ass whooped, failed to back up his idea that he didn't need ground principles, and won by accident and he's calling it tai chi! But then like Seven and Liokault and many others are saying, he's still training essentially tai chi principles and he's fighting MMA tournaments which is more than most people on this board (myself included).

[scotty1]

Iron you're on the wrong track about what tai chi should look like.

Different peoples tai chi is going to look different. With regard to punching - there are surely just non-effective and effective ways to punch, boxers, tai chi people, whatever, they're going to look pretty similar.

The difference should be in the tactics. The tai chi boxer should be sticking and following with his punches, perhaps not bringing them back like a boxer might. But then, don;t some boxers do that? Punch from an extended position? So are they doing tai chi?

The difference is in what is emphasised in training, and the training method. Just because the end result looks similar doesn't mean the one has just stolen the technique from the other.

You cannot perform applications from the form in as crisp a manner as they are in the form. It might look really scrappy. That's the nature of fighting isn't it?

But I agree that a tai chi fighter should have certain characteristics of movement and strategies/tactics, as well as certain techniques that are reciognisibly 'tai chi'.

And I personally don't think it should take years to learn to fight using tai chi. In fact it could be pretty quick dam quick.

[Becca]

Originally posted by IronFist
I didn't really read this thread.

Does what he does look like Tai Chi? Cuz you could be a boxer or shuai jiao guy and say you do Tai Chi but that doesn't make it Tai Chi.

And don't start with the "well, what if the boxer uses Tai Chi principles..." If he's in a boxing stance, throwing boxing punches, he's using boxing principles. If they happen to coincidentally be the same as Tai Chi principles, that's great. But if they're not exclusive to Tai Chi they don't count as "Tai Chi princples."
Some confusion reigned, and we saw blood- but unexpectedly, the blood belonged to Abdul. Berik had elbowed him above the eye while on his back in guard, and re-opened an old gash. This stament and the details of the first time he was dropped tell me that he was using Tai Chi. The only other art I know of that can slip in on you like that is Kempo. Flowing movements that go along with the aggressor untill he/shi/it is caught be good and totally unaware untill too **** late. Yep. That's Tai Chi in a fight.

late addition...
But I ve been on this board for about four years and I don t remember you ever posting anything in details about the Five Steps. I always read your posts with interest cos you often have useful things to say, and my ears ***** up when you mention the Five Steps... ahh, at last we get treated to what it is!
Five steps is in reference to the five levels of mental preperation.
They are also incorperated in many other TCMA, but are not as stressed, if stressed at all. in Pai Lum, they are as follows:

strong mind > concentration > controll > discipline > self dicipline

This is not nesissarily how other arts phrase it, but in essence, it is the same.

[scotty1]

Interesting definition of the 5 steps Becca.

In tai chi they're basically directions, I think.

however Bruce has a differnet definition again, but won't tell anyone. ;)

[Becca]

In tai chi they're basically directions, I think.
Those five steps I listed are more than just the words used to describe them. Call'em directions, or what have you. But they have a goal, and that basiclly is to get your mind to think and respond in a spacific way. I discovered the connection between Pai Lum's "5 levels of Meditation" and Tai Chi's 5 steps by accident... I asked an off the wall question of a Sifu and that was the answer I got.:)

[Mr Punch]

Cheers Becca, but I think Shooter is talking about physical principles. almost certain from the veiled references he makes. Let's see shall we, whenever he gets back to us...

[Ray Pina]

Knifefighter, I'm thinking you're probbaly not the regular TMA, certainly not doing Cloud Hands in the park in a pink silk robe.

....

Delibandit:

I understand what you're saying, really I do. But presently, BJJ is proving that it can turn out fighters, where the average purple belt will put a hurting on a 5 to even 10 year taiji player. I'm talking averages here. I know my teacher and his disciples can use their taiji, though there is a lot in there (Hsing-I, Ba Gua, weapons theory, etc), but you just don't see a lot of taiji guys out there. Hell, you don't see a lot of internal guys out there.

In NY I can only think of Mr. CC Chen's school (Max and Tiffany), Novell Bell (Black Taoist)'s crew and my master, Mr. David Bond Chan. These schools do fight, probbaly more so than most external traditional styles in the area.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Well, given that I believe Bruce has something to say about things like the 5-steps, I actually have a record of what has been said in the past - it's part of my recommended reading :) I just dont get all of it yet:


5-steps has nothing to do with footwork per se. It shows basic ignorance when people start discussing 5-steps as footwork. You use footwork to affect 5-steps method, but footwork is something other than 5-steps.

5-steps as a principle represents TCC's positional strategies.

5-steps as a concept represents the relational chemistry 2 or more people form in struggle and violent conflict.

5-steps are the means by which players learn to stick, follow, link, and adhere under pressure

This was all in a very long thread on the neija forum a fair while ago, so i hope Bruce doesn't mind me putting some of it here.

Regards,

Paul

[Liokault]

Fight report from Neil Rosak

"Well - wasn't quite how I saw it, or many others who were there.
Abdul mohammed is the Cage Warriors champion and so they like to
hype him up a bit and don't like it when he loses on another show I
guess.

It was a foregone conclusion that he would get the take down (he is
ridiculously strong and a champion wrestler) - and he did, twice.
First time sami very easily regained guard and then very easily
stood up again.Then put some good knee strikes in.

Next time he got it Sami again took guard very easily after getting
caught near the fence.
The cuts were caused by about seven or so unanswered elbow shots
from Sami in the bottom position to his temple and face - which he
did not like at all. The guy may cut easily but then they were very
good elbows.


A Champion Olympic wrestler who is wider than he is tall will
inevitably get a takedown - but he inflicted no damage at all and
lost the dominant position easily, and was hit a lot in the face in
the process by elbows. Sami would rather knock him out but everyone
was very happy with his performance considering the last time he was
on the ground was his last cage fight some months back. He does no
groundfighting at all to prepare for these events.
Abdul was very smart not to stand with Sami. He used his awesome
wresling skills to pull off some wild takedowns, but he did not
dominate the fight and made lots of mistakes.
I am pretty sure that Sami would have caught him with something else
if the cut didn't open. The cagewarriors report is definately off
key.

Sami took a fight agaisnt possibly the top welterweight in the UK at
very short notice and did very well - tough times are what cage
fighting is about, especially if you fight the top guys like Abdul.A
fight agaisnt him is never going to go all your way - though Sami
sustained far less punishment in this bout than he has in any other
cage fight.
Sami could prepare better for fights sometimes but he was excellent
this time against an incredibly powerful opponent who has
thouroughly dominated other opponents. "

[scotty1]

Paul, I don't get it either.

I would certainly like to be shown what it is though.

Maybe one day on holiday to Canada...
:)

Still the impression I get is that it's not just footwork, but directional forces that neutralise other directional forces?:confused:

Actually isn't that kind of a given? Or not?

Dunno, it's the end of a long day... GAAAAH!

[Kaitain(UK)]

Well my family are all in Calgary so I could pretend Im going to visit them :)

It may be like many things in MA, in that it develops without you realising it (through correct repetition of forms) - once it's pointed out then you can deliberately cultivate it. The problem with that route is that something can become corrupted through ignorance.

delibandit - how long have you trained? your profile says 2 months. If that's the case then you cant possibly have any practical ability to exhibit what you're talking about. Nor are you qualified to make sweeping statements about what other people have experienced.

[scotty1]

Holy (rap I didn't realise that.

And I still maintain it doesn't take 10, or even 5 years to become proficient through tai chi.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I hope you'd accept that developing Peng to a reasonable degree takes more than a couple of months though right? I think that until the body is properly sung, one cannot develop peng, and without peng one cannot know what taiji is.

edit - and it's also about layers. I agree that someone should be effective with any martial art after 6 months (to the level they could hit someone hard enough to drop them, basically defend themselves). I think that taiji starts out completely external, and then trains to become internal over time (a bit of a truism - sorry :)) I think that what someone is doing after 6 months of taiji training isn't mechanically anything like taiji.

Getting back to Bruce now - he seems to say that this is where 5 steps comes in. Mechanically one can be doing everything correctly in a taiji context, but without the correct platform for it, it isnt taiji.

I'm glad I cleared that up so well. Im confused now

[scotty1]

Well I'm not saying you're going to be proficient in a couple of months.

What I'm saying is that just doing the training regularly, whilst not turning you into a proficient fighter overnight, is going to increase your ability to look after yourself incrementally, so it's not like you can't fight with it, and then all of a sudden, after 10 years, you can.

It's a process and the process starts taking effect well before that. You may not be the human embodiement of tai chi principles in motion but you can fight better than you could before because of your training.

"I think that until the body is properly sung, one cannot develop peng, and without peng one cannot know what taiji is."


Mate you're way ahead of me here. You've obviously reached a stage in your training I haven't, where you've got a practical understanding of those terms. I'm still very much understanding those terms in theory.

[Kaitain(UK)]

see my edit above :)

[scotty1]

Seen it - seen mine?

But I agree with you btw.

Fu*king hell - I'm going home...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by delibandit
Sevenstar: Yes, other arts use borrowing and yielding, but the forces are more separated in these cases. Sort of yield then attack. Yin the Yang or Yang then Yin. In Taiji the yield and attack force (yin and yang) are integrated. The Taiji symbol is just that a symbol of Taiji, not yin and yang. The symbol represents an integration, a balance between the two. Many people get confused by this. Taijiquan is about the concept of Taiji, not yin and yang. It's like a ball that is resting in the water and you push your force against it. What happens? Your force is transfered by the ball.

Actually, the borrowing application I was talking about is integrated.

other internal people - shooter for example, sees peng in judo guys. If you ask a judo guy what peng is, however, he will have no clue what you are talking about.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kaitain(UK)
I hope you'd accept that developing Peng to a reasonable degree takes more than a couple of months though right? I think that until the body is properly sung, one cannot develop peng, and without peng one cannot know what taiji is.


see my above comment - how would your statement apply to the judo example?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by delibandit
I need to update my profile, I've been training for more than 2 months. Look, I can't make you believe in Taiji no matter what I say. And honestly, I don't care. I learn from a great teacher. I also study Tongbei through that same teacher and organization. I enjoy it, it is facinating, and good for my physical well-being. I don't give a sh*t about beating any top champion ring fighters. They are not likely the kind of guys that are going to give me trouble anyway. With Tongbei, I could probably take on 90% of the a**holes who would be a problem to me anyway. And most of them, along with the other 10%, I can probably avoid a confrontation with anyhow. I'm not a troublemaker and I'm not really interested bar and street fighting per say, it is disgraceful and something to be avoided. Personally, I hope I never have to fight anyone.

Nothing wrong with that. IMO though, you should at some point in time, test yourself somehow...that's where stepping onto the ring comes in. It doesn't have to be bjj, muay thai, etc - have a san shou match.

[Ray Pina]

SevenStar you **** fighter;)

[Mutant]

Originally posted by delibandit
I need to update my profile, I've been training for more than 2 months. Look, I can't make you believe in Taiji no matter what I say. And honestly, I don't care. . . . . I've been lucky enough to have been exposed to something special.



thats nice that you enjoy what youre studying, and yes tai chi is great stuff imo, but i think what provokes people to respond argumentatively to your posts is not that they nessesarily hate or doubt tai chi, but that getting lectured on some of the big-picture aspects of fighting arts from somebody who has limited perspective and experience can be frustrating. with around a year & a half experience with one sifu, no matter how great he is, youre still a babe in the woods when it comes to where your tai chi fits into the grand scheme of things, especially if you havent been exposed to many other arts or competitions outside of your class (a few other guys in-house w/ prior experience don't really count for much in that context), and this is obvious from the arguements you make. you don't have to convince everyone that tai chi is the best, just enjoy it and try to keep an open mind. because nobody is going to line up to listen to some newbie philosopher-king anyway... maybe you should spend more time really listening to some of them.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Becca
late addition...
Five steps is in reference to the five levels of mental preperation. . . .are as follows:

strong mind > concentration > controll > discipline > self dicipline
. [/B]

lol

*buzz* . . . wrong answer. Guess again?

[omarthefish]

Nevermind.....

What's funny is I never bothered with a web search before since I had already discussed the 5 steps with my teacher. I say "funny" because I've watched Shooter bring up "the 5 stpes" ..*ooooohhhh....:eek: * time and again and each time people get annoyed or tease him or make up wierd theories about what they are and a simple google search for "taiji 5 steps" turned up good explanations immediately....several of them.

Google is your friend.

Now how they apply to combat and how you train and implement them is another story.;)

[Mr Punch]

I just got annoyed at Shooter being such a prom queen about it.

Frankly, I could give less of a **** about what they are, since it's likely that the tai chiers I meet are more of the pajama- and sandal-wearing muesli-eating yoghurt-knitting crystal-licking lesbian variety than those who could fight their way out of a paper bag.

It just ****es me off when people (esp good people like Shooter) come on a discussion board and don't discuss what they pretend to discuss. Capiche?

[Chief Fox]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
lol! Actually, I boxed for my college's team. Although I came a few years later, it's the only national championship my school had ever won. I won a far cry more than 25% of my matches (all amateur under the USABA and NCBA) and I wouldn't consider myself anything special at all.

Neither would anyone else! BAWAHAHAHAHA! Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm out. :D

[DragonzRage]

The first rule of 5 Steps is that you do not talk about the 5 Steps.

The second rule of 5 Steps is that YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE 5 STEPS!

[Kaitain(UK)]

Seven - I agree entirely that Peng is present within Judo and BJJ guys (good ones anyway). It isn't cultivated deliberately however, and therefore it's hit and miss how good they may be with it.

I didn't say Peng=Taiji. But since every other force in taiji is basically peng used in different directions, if someone can't exhibit Peng then they don't really understand it and therefore aren't at a stage where they can talk competently about doing taiji.

I wasn't trying to say taiji is unique because it has Peng Jin in it :) Taiji is unique because I can fire chi bolts from my ass with it.

Delibandit:

Most of the people on this board only understand power, speed, and strength

Firstly, in their systems they are valid attributes that work well for them in their system. I think you're being a little rude to think this is all 'most' people here understand.

Secondly, people are only interested in what _you_ can do with your taiji. All of us can spout off about what our teachers are capable of, but that doesnt really help in terms of sharing information. It's a good way of regulating ourselves as well.

Thirdly - taiji is about extreme polarity of yin and yang. I get where you're coming from with yin and yang integrated, but that is something that all competent MA's will do.

Fourthly - the ball in water analogy. Think on this as well - the ball is effectively storing the energy you push into it, so when you release it, that force is released. The ball will also try and circle around your linear force to get back to the surface. However hard you push the ball, it'll always do the same thing. That's just Peng.

Lastly - when I started training and first came here I was a complete taiji fanboy as well, so I speak from experience. Some friendly advice: don't evangelise here. Those of us who train taiji are already in love with it, those that dont train taiji already probably have good reasons why they aren't. Invest in loss :)

[Becca]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Nevermind.....

What's funny is I never bothered with a web search before since I had already discussed the 5 steps with my teacher. I say "funny" because I've watched Shooter bring up "the 5 stpes" ..*ooooohhhh....:eek: * time and again and each time people get annoyed or tease him or make up wierd theories about what they are and a simple google search for "taiji 5 steps" turned up good explanations immediately....several of them.

Google is your friend.

Now how they apply to combat and how you train and implement them is another story.;)
I'm glad you took the effort to talk with your teacher about them. But did that talk get into the philisophical espects? And more importantly, google is only your freind if you actually read past the first few lines of info it gives.

this is an exert from embracethemoon.com (http://www.embracethemoon.com) :

"To complicate the issue there is very little available material exploring this subject. Most books provide at best a cursory explanation or a simple list. The main difficulty arises from questions related to function. Just what are these five things anyway? Are they postures? Are they stances? Are they positions? Are they techniques? Are they sensibilities related to the “five elements?” And just what are the “five elements?”

The Wu Bu relate directly to the fundamental operation of the legs, hips and waist, particularly in relationship to the Ba Men (Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Tsai, Lieh, Jou, Kou). Yang Family classics address this directly:
“The division of the steps contains the concept of the five phases and allows us to control the eight directions.” “Our body contains the eight trigrams, and our feet step out the five phases.”

Compare this to text from the Taijiquan Classic:
“The root is in the feet, Jin is generated from the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed through the hands and fingers. From the feet to the legs to the waist must be integrated with one unified Qi. When moving forward or backward, you can then catch the opportunity and gain the superior position.”

The legwork in Taijiquan is distinctly different from that of other martial arts styles. The approach to mobility in Tai Chi is designed to give support to the all important tsan-nien jing (sticking-adhereing energy). Without studying and integrating the specific qualities of the Wu Bu, it is virtually impossible to develop accurate or functional sticking energy. The revered text, the Song of Sparring, is the oldest literary source to directly describe the requirements and purpose of the Wu Bu in Taijiquan. It states:
“In advance, retreat, gaze left, look right and central equilibrium, you must stick, connect, adhere, and follow, distinguishing full and empty. The hands and feet follow each other, and the waist and legs act in unison.” “Drawing the opponent in so that his energy lands on nothing is a marvelous technique.”
Since the legs and waist are so obviously important, study of the Wu Bu should be one of a serious Tai Chi student’s major and critical focuses."

Take special note of this part: “In advance, retreat, gaze left, look right and central equilibrium, you must stick, connect, adhere, and follow, distinguishing full and empty. The hands and feet follow each other, and the waist and legs act in unison.”

How one does this without mental preperation is beyond me. I say this because the primary goal of forms and drills is to prepare the mind to use the techniques. To memorize the technique is simple. To use it requires one to know and understand it. Remember, the mind is a truely amazing thing, but useless if you don't involve it in every aspect of your training. You may be able to spar. But that is not to say you will be able to use what you have learned while sparring unless your mind understands how to use it. This is why many people's sparring "doesn't look like what-ever-style". They do train it well, but in a fight or even a sparring situation, the mind looses controll and the reflexes take over. Train well and you will do well.

Train your mind to take control, and you will do better, because your mind has much more to offer than "duck-jab-jab-hook-****... I just got nailed and lost my consentration!" (admit it, we all spar like that at least from time to time.;) )

[Kaitain(UK)]

No I don't think so. Not in my understanding anyway.

The theory that I have from my style (Yang Family):

Five elements
Jin - Advancing
Tui - Stepping back
Gu - Being attentive
Pan - Gazing
Ding - Bering still

which in turn can be divided into internal and external aspects:
External
Jin - advancing
Tui - retreating
Gu - attentive to your left
Pan - keeping an eye to the right
Ding - being rooted and stable

Internal
Jin - touching and entering
Tui - linking
Gu - adhering
Pan - Sui (following and yielding)
Ding - not resiting or losing contact

This is the source of the five elements and the basis of agility.

[Shooter]

the 5 steps correspond directly with the 5 elements.

The 5 elements are arranged in creative/destructive and closeness/fearfulness cycles. Their arrangements provide a model for understanding tjq as it pertains to the relationships we share with others.

The creative/destructive cycle represents the physical/spacial/positional aspects of relationships and interactions.

The closeness/fearfulness cycle represents the mind/intent and perceptual aspects of the same relationships and interactions.

It's important to not get bogged down in minute details or singlular/linear thinking in how one step/element relates to another. It's a synergy of all the steps/elements acting within the shared experience.

Metal=Advance
Wood=Retreat
Water=Look-left
Fire=Gaze-right
Earth=Central Equilibrium

Positional/Spacial/Physical;
Metal creates water. Water creates wood. Wood creates fire. Fire creates earth. Earth creates metal.
Metal destroys wood. Wood destroys earth. Earth destroys water. Water destroys fire. Fire destroys metal.

Mental/Emotional/Perceptual;
Fire is close to wood. Wood is close to water. Water is close to metal. Metal is close to earth. Earth is close to fire.
Fire fears water. Water fears earth. Earth fears wood. Wood fears metal. Metal fears fire.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Becca
[B]I'm glad you took the effort to talk with your teacher about them. But did that talk get into the philisophical espects?

Yes. Actually, it came up only incidentally as we were discussing the 5 elements as they relate to baguazhang. I don't study Taijiquan. But as my teacher mentione the 5 elements in the way most Chinese habitually do:

"jin, mu, shui, huo, tu...."

..he also did a little "hail mary" in the air with his finger and it suddenly clicked why that particular order when it doesn't match with the cycle of creation OR destruction.

In English:

"metal, wood, water, fire, earth." ...and he semiconcously gestured with his finger up, down, left, right and center..."

And that's how I learned about the 5 steps....


And more importantly, google is only your freind if you actually read past the first few lines of info it gives.


Agreed. But the first hit I got was this one:

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/powers13.htm

Which I think has an excellent introduction to the subject if you click on the link at the top of the page where it says:

"5 steps"

What? People expect to post a question on a board and just get spoon fed EVERYTHING?

[Ray Pina]

We utilize "Element Steps" in our system as well, particularly the one where the front foot stays and you sweep around sort of like a Matador before he sticks the bull .... this was inspired my grandmaster Lui's Flying Dragon pole system.

Concerning elements in general though, I don't get too caught up because I think people over do it with "water puts out fire," ect., etc., etc. Really? Because fire just evaporatade the hel! out of the water I left on the stove this morning.

Any element can over come any other depending on who's doing it and how. Position and structure.

[Chang Style Novice]

Hmmm...

Perchance was the fire acting directly on metal, which then acted in its turn on water, Efist?;)

[Kaitain(UK)]

Delibandit - sure I have, and I believe they're perfectly valid concepts that should be trained in any system.

[Ray Pina]

Chang, you're exactly right:)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Kaitain(UK)
"Fourthly - the ball in water analogy. Think on this as well - the ball is effectively storing the energy you push into it, so when you release it, that force is released. The ball will also try and circle around your linear force to get back to the surface. However hard you push the ball, it'll always do the same thing. That's just Peng."

I haven't gone very deep into Taiji but I don't get this explanation at all. Seems way off base to me (I think you missed the 'boat' on this one). The ball stores nothing. It's just an intermediary between two opposing forces and only seeks the least difficult path to equilibrium. It neither resists nor forces change but yields to dissipate the forces exerted on it.

It could be said that the water displaced around the ball is storing the energy and since it too aspires to equilibrium will release that energy back at the first opportunity. To me then, peng would be a natural force that maintains unity and equilibrium in the universe (physics). To relate it to fighting I would say that a vicious attack would return that energy back to the attacker via the easiest route in order to neutralize the situation. Specific techniques to accomplish this are left to the individual. You can use Boxing, Muy Thai, or Kung Fu, whichever you prefer.

Ok, my head hurts now from all that deep thinking. :D

[Kaitain(UK)]

OK then - imagine a large inflatable ball that you're trying to push into the ground or a wall. The ball gives way to a point but always returns to it's original shape, doesnt matter how hard or fast you push into it. I would say that standing post training and other such tools are used to develop the resilience that increases the practitioners ability to receive this force without becoming brittle (bursting, if you want to stick with the ball).

The ball on water analogy is to try and get people to understand the sensation they are after. In pure physics I understand that the ball retains no energy, but when done in martial terms the body compresses and stores the incoming energy. Probably my second analogy is better :) It's an image rather than a physics based explanation.

[Shooter]

I wasn't finished writing. I wanted to go into how the cycles are applied to the way sparring and ring-fighting are structured and practiced. I just ran out of time this morning.

But since "we've ruled out the 5 elements as what we were disussing", nevermind.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by delibandit
Most of the people on this board only understand power, speed, and strength. Most non-fighters greatly underestimate the role of strength, power, speed, and conditioning.

[sihing]

and most so called "fighters" greatly underestimate proper timing, postioning and perception skills, and many other skill attributes, as a way to cut another man's, strength, speed and power in half. All of these things are requirements to succeed in self defence, but some arts rely on them more because that's what they are based on, strength, speed and power, and not everyone has these things to a high degree. If the average person with average strength, speed and power can't make it work then it is not a effective movement, IMO.

James

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Shooter
I wasn't finished writing. I wanted to go into how the cycles are applied to the way sparring and ring-fighting are structured and practiced. I just ran out of time this morning.

But since "we've ruled out the 5 elements as what we were disussing", nevermind.

*puts hands over his ears*

I can't hear you...I can't hear you...I can't hear you.......

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
and most so called "fighters" greatly underestimate proper timing, postioning and perception skills, and many other skill attributes, as a way to cut another man's, strength, speed and power in half. All of these things are requirements to succeed in self defence, but some arts rely on them more because that's what they are based on, strength, speed and power, and not everyone has these things to a high degree. Most non-fighters think that that combat sports like boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling do not emphasize technique, timing, perception, and precision just as much, if not more so, as they do conditioning.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Most non-fighters think that that combat sports like boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling do not emphasize technique, timing, perception, and precision just as much, if not more so, as they do conditioning.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Most non-fighters think that that combat sports like boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling do not emphasize technique, timing, perception, and precision just as much, if not more so, as they do conditioning.

I'd be much better too if I had the 24hrs in one day needed to train everything that you suggest.

I never said that the arts listed above don't require skill and don't have the skill attributes I mentioned in my post. But some arts require more of the physical attributes like speed, strength etc to make them effective. Listen, if I had just enough strength to lift my arm up from the side of my body and that's it, no fighting art would work for me. Most people have a average level of strength, speed and stamina. When some of them join a particular MA school, the first requirement of that school is to make them stronger, faster and more fit, physical attribute based MA.

In other MA schools the people learn how to coordinate their natural strengths, learn faster methods of movement, and learn how to cut another man's speed in half by making their opponents use longer movements to reach them and teaches one to watch certain points on their opponents bodies that telegraph what they are going to do, allowing one to pick up and read the intentions of the opponents punch, kick, or whatever faster than normal. Is this system perfect? No, but it works better for the average person than getting stronger and faster and fitter, because there are always people out there that have more of these things than you and I.

James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
I'd be much better too if I had the 24hrs in one day needed to train everything that you suggest.

and yet you find time for weapons, chi sau, umpteen strikes, forms, dummy work, iron palm, qigong...


In other MA schools the people learn how to coordinate their natural strengths, learn faster methods of movement, and learn how to cut another man's speed in half by making their opponents use longer movements to reach them and teaches one to watch certain points on their opponents bodies that telegraph what they are going to do, allowing one to pick up and read the intentions of the opponents punch, kick, or whatever faster than normal.


those things should be taught in ANY school...

[WanderingMonk]

apparently, this Sami Berik guy's record is 3-3.

http://fcfighter.brinkster.net/fighter.asp?FighterID=245013

anybody know anything about this ulitmate combat promotion? where's it based and how big is it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
and most so called "fighters" greatly underestimate proper timing, postioning and perception skills, and many other skill attributes, as a way to cut another man's, strength, speed and power in half. All of these things are requirements to succeed in self defence, but some arts rely on them more because that's what they are based on, strength, speed and power, and not everyone has these things to a high degree. If the average person with average strength, speed and power can't make it work then it is not a effective movement, IMO.

James

Didn't you state elsewhere that you've only had formal experience with one style, and that one is WC? If so, then how can you possibly know if this is true?

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Didn't you state elsewhere that you've only had formal experience with one style, and that one is WC? If so, then how can you possibly know if this is true?

I'm formally trained in Wing Chun, but studied the other arts to learn how to apply my Wing Chun against them, plus I've met others from these styles, compared notes and sparred during the learning years. My teacher also has direct experience with many different arts, as well as fellow students and previous students of mine. We all agree that certain arts rely on physical attributes more than others. This does not mean these arts don't use the same skills sets I mentioned earlier, just that IMO they do not use them as much as say Wing Chun does. Wing Chun is known for its ability to teach small people how to defend successfully against larger people, so how is this possible if the larger people are physically more dominate than they are? Because the skill sets of WC are at a higher level of efficiency and effectiveness IMO.

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sihing
I'd be much better too if I had the 24hrs in one day needed to train everything that you suggest.

Originally posted response: Sevenstar
and yet you find time for weapons, chi sau, umpteen strikes, forms, dummy work, iron palm, qigong...

Originally posted by sihing:
In other MA schools the people learn how to coordinate their natural strengths, learn faster methods of movement, and learn how to cut another man's speed in half by making their opponents use longer movements to reach them and teaches one to watch certain points on their opponents bodies that telegraph what they are going to do, allowing one to pick up and read the intentions of the opponents punch, kick, or whatever faster than normal.

Originally posted response: Sevenstar
those things should be taught in ANY school...



The weapons/forms of WC are quite simplified compared to other arts. For the Butterfly Swords, once you learn the hands of WC you already know most of what you have to know to fight with them, you just have to get used to handling them correctly, but since most people do not carry Butterfly Swords on their person's, we substitute sticks for the swords also. The Dragon pole (we use a 6' staff), is very simple to learn and doesn't require much training to become skilled with them. SLT, CK and BG are simple to do and don't require much time to perform.

Chi-sao is done allot in the earlier stages of training, but like any skill attribute, once you have the skill in you it is much easier maintaining it than it was gaining it.

Don't practice much Chi-kung anymore, but should, and I don't particpate in much iron palm training. Wooden dummy is done maybe 4X a week for about 15min a time, not much time there also.

As for the things I mentioned in my post, I don't know what most MA schools are teaching as it would be almost impossible to know exactly, but from what I see through videos and publc MA mags most do not use as far as I can see methods to cut a man's speed in half, use one's natural strengths and faster method's of movement. I have seen some arts that use some of these methods but none as much as the WC I practice IMO.

James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
I'm formally trained in Wing Chun, but studied the other arts to learn how to apply my Wing Chun against them

studied them how?

This does not mean these arts don't use the same skills sets I mentioned earlier, just that IMO they do not use them as much as say Wing Chun does.

I really suggest you spend time with some grapplers.

Wing Chun is known for its ability to teach small people how to defend successfully against larger people, so how is this possible if the larger people are physically more dominate than they are? Because the skill sets of WC are at a higher level of efficiency and effectiveness IMO.



In thailand, the avg thai boxer is lightweight....grapplers are quite adept at dealing with large guys as well. That's nothing specialized to WC. Do you have any examples of why/how WC is more efficient?

a slightly over 200 lb minotauro defeated 350 lb bob sapp.

155lb. genki sudo defeated 350 lb. butterbean.

I've beaten guys in tournaments that have outweighed me by 85-100 lbs.

170 lb royce defeated 250 lb. dan severn.

fighting smart is something that should be emphasized in all styles.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
The weapons/forms of WC are quite simplified compared to other arts. For the Butterfly Swords, once you learn the hands of WC you already know most of what you have to know to fight with them, you just have to get used to handling them correctly, but since most people do not carry Butterfly Swords on their person's, we substitute sticks for the swords also. The Dragon pole (we use a 6' staff), is very simple to learn and doesn't require much training to become skilled with them. SLT, CK and BG are simple to do and don't require much time to perform.

Chi-sao is done allot in the earlier stages of training, but like any skill attribute, once you have the skill in you it is much easier maintaining it than it was gaining it.

Don't practice much Chi-kung anymore, but should, and I don't particpate in much iron palm training. Wooden dummy is done maybe 4X a week for about 15min a time, not much time there also.

but those things are still trained, regardless. While you are training those things, a thai boxer (for example) is cocentraining on his same core striking techniques repeatedly. The beauty of it is that the things that knife mentioned are all integrated into the the skills training. I don't have to do any thing extra for iron body - conditioning comes with sparring and pad work, which are directly related to my skill development. increased stamina will come with sparring, which is, as stated, directly related to my skill development. Timing, precision, angling, etc. are all drilled through pads and sparring. It's all integrated.

As for the things I mentioned in my post, I don't know what most MA schools are teaching as it would be almost impossible to know exactly, but from what I see through videos and publc MA mags most do not use as far as I can see methods to cut a man's speed in half, use one's natural strengths and faster method's of movement. I have seen some arts that use some of these methods but none as much as the WC I practice IMO.


feinting, stalking, drawing, angling, etc. Are definitely trained in other styles.

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sihing
"I'm formally trained in Wing Chun, but studied the other arts to learn how to apply my Wing Chun against them"

Sevenstar: studied them how?

Sihing:I leaned about them by any means possible, real people contact, texts, video instruction, etc...

"This does not mean these arts don't use the same skills sets I mentioned earlier, just that IMO they do not use them as much as say Wing Chun does.:

Sevenstar:I really suggest you spend time with some grapplers.

Sihing: Would love to but have no time. Have seen great skill from some grapplers, and have seen sloppy skill from some grapplers, same in the WC I have investigated, not all apply it the same way, but on a technical level I believe the Wing Chun utilizes skill sets more than most any of the MA out there, but this is just my opinion.


Wing Chun is known for its ability to teach small people how to defend successfully against larger people, so how is this possible if the larger people are physically more dominate than they are? Because the skill sets of WC are at a higher level of efficiency and effectiveness IMO.



Sevenstar:In Thailand, the avg thai boxer is lightweight....grapplers are quite adept at dealing with large guys as well. That's nothing specialized to WC. Do you have any examples of why/how WC is more efficient?

Sihing: In Thailand the avg Thai Boxers start real young and is fighting to get out of the poor house, basically for survival, and trains hard to do this. If one cannot afford the same time commitment and intensity as the well-trained Thai Boxer from Thailand, can they still use the art effectively? Probably, but not to the same effectiveness if the person trained the same way in WC IMO. Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident. I have a great respect for the Gracie's ever since I studied some of the videos and viewed the documentary "Choke" featuring Rickson Gracie. That art is in my mind like WC for the ground, very sophisticated and effective, except I do not believe it is sound strategy to fight on the ground as a this allows less mobility against multiple opponents, but the art of GJJ would add great effectiveness to any fighter from whatever system they study.

I could go all day on the reason's why WC is very efficient, but I won't, its bedtime. Basically, at least in the WC I study, we use no wasted movements, and try to position our self’s in very advantageous ways in relationship to our opponents whenever possible. The training system allows one to absorb everything quickly, and supreme effectiveness in everything we do in relation to our self-protection is of paramount importance. We have not had our heads stuck in the ground for decades, and are aware of the others arts out there today, and what they have to offer also.


Sevenstar:a slightly over 200 lb minotauro defeated 350 lb bob sapp.


Sevenstar:155lb. genki sudo defeated 350 lb. butterbean.

Sevenstar:I've beaten guys in tournaments that have outweighed me by 85-100 lbs.

Sevenstar:170 lb royce defeated 250 lb. dan severn.

Sihing: All of the above people that won are pros, and very skilled athletes, exceptions to the rule. Every MA has people like this in them, including yourself. WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don't work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. Most average people cannot train like those mentioned above. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters.


Sevenstar:fighting smart is something that should be emphasized in all styles.

Sihing: Yes I agree, but from the new students that have recently joined my kwoon from other MA systems (Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, Hapkido), this is not the case..


James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing

Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident.


in the beginning, possibly. That's natural for anyone. As we (I'm one of those big guys, so I have a lot of experience in this area) progess, we learn to relax and learn not to rely on our size and strength as that will stagnate learning. IME, it won't make you overconfident for long. Get beat by enough little guys and that will change. Size and strength is indeed an advantage though, and you will learn when and how to use it.


That art is in my mind like WC for the ground, very sophisticated and effective, except I do not believe it is sound strategy to fight on the ground

Don't look at it that way - If we are both in a bar fight and we both get taken to the ground and mounted, who is more likely to be able to get up most quickly and efficiently - you with no grappling training, or me? Who is likely better at defending against a solid takedown? It's not necessarily about finishing the fight on the ground, but about being able to handle yourself wherever you may be.

We have not had our heads stuck in the ground for decades, and are aware of the others arts out there today, and what they have to offer also.

it sounds like you have an incomplete picture though.


I could go all day on the reason's why WC is very efficient

I don't disagree. but to think that as far as efficiency goes the wc is leaps and bounds above everything else is incorrect, IMO.

All of the above people that won are pros, and very skilled athletes, exceptions to the rule. Every MA has people like this in them, including yourself. WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don't work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters.

There is no physical pre-req. the muay thai roundhouse, for example is powerful due to the mechanics of it. You don't have to be big and strong to deliver a solid one.

sport fighting produces fighters quickly as well.

Most average people cannot train like those mentioned above.

yes, they can. At my club, you will train as if you have an upcoming fight - whether you fight or not, you will be in competition shape and will have the skill development to go with it. IME, this is how sport fighting clubs in general are.

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sihing

Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident.

Respnse:Sevenstar
in the beginning, possibly. That's natural for anyone. As we (I'm one of those big guys, so I have a lot of experience in this area) progess, we learn to relax and learn not to rely on our size and strength as that will stagnate learning. IME, it won't make you overconfident for long. Get beat by enough little guys and that will change. Size and strength is indeed an advantage though, and you will learn when and how to use it.

Sihing: If the big guy's can do this then they will definetly be more dangerous. We have a guy in class that's 6'2" 280ish and very fast for his size (he's a naturally big guy, built like a brick sh!t house, not body building type). Because he has the WC skills to average degree (he still tends to rely on his size & strength advantage at times) he is very dangerous. He can punch around 5 to 6 times in a second and has very good kicks. I would recommend to him that he concentrate on his chi-sao to soften up a bit and refine his skills to a higher degree. The only advantage I have over him (I'm almost 6'2", and 185lbs) is my skill is higher, my understanding of the art is higher and I'm faster. If the two of us tango'd I would definetly have to take him out quick, using more dirty tactics (finger jabs, neck hits, ball busters) and get in close to finish him off. My reference to big guys was a "in general" type of post, as I would think most guys that are big feel they have no need to train in MA, due to their size and strength advantage over most.


Sihing
"That art is in my mind like WC for the ground, very sophisticated and effective, except I do not believe it is sound strategy to fight on the ground"

response Sevenstar:
"Don't look at it that way - If we are both in a bar fight and we both get taken to the ground and mounted, who is more likely to be able to get up most quickly and efficiently - you with no grappling training, or me? Who is likely better at defending against a solid takedown? It's not necessarily about finishing the fight on the ground, but about being able to handle yourself wherever you may be."

Sihing: That's true, but only if one has not trained antigrappling technique's, to which we do train in our kwoon. From standing to kneeling to on your side to on your back. And of course when the opportunity arises to get back up again we would do so.

Sihing
"We have not had our heads stuck in the ground for decades, and are aware of the others arts out there today, and what they have to offer also."

response Sevenstar:
it sounds like you have an incomplete picture though.

Sihing:
It may be incomplete, as I would probably learn lots if I actually decided to take up those arts, just like those that judge WC and think they know about it (like most JKD guys), they could learn lots if they absorbed all of it. But at least I have a knowledge of them and what the basic strategy and set up is. If I was totally in the closet about other arts besides WC then you would have one up on me, but I've tried to be open minded about things all my MA career.

sihing
"I could go all day on the reason's why WC is very efficient"

respnse:SEvenstar
I don't disagree. but to think that as far as efficiency goes the wc is leaps and bounds above everything else is incorrect, IMO.

Sihing:
I never said WC was leaps and bounds above everything else, its very subtle, but in my opinion more efficient and effective.

sihing
"All of the above people that won are pros, and very skilled athletes, exceptions to the rule. Every MA has people like this in them, including yourself. WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don't work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters."

resnse: Sevenstar
There is no physical pre-req. the muay thai roundhouse, for example is powerful due to the mechanics of it. You don't have to be big and strong to deliver a solid one.


Sihing: True, you don't have to be big and strong for a powerful round kick, but the fact that the kick has to be "powerful" to be effective is my point. My WC punch is not designed to knock one out with 1 punch, but multiple punches in 1 second. After practice the individual punches become more powerful, but we do not believe in the method's of putting all power in one decisive blow, too much commitment there.

Sevenstar:
sport fighting produces fighters quickly as well.

Sihing: True, because they have the time available to train 8hrs a day, they are pro's, average people have lives that don't revolve around MA training. So they must learn techniques that work in their own right and don't rely on the individuals attributes to a high degree.

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don't work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. Most average people cannot train like thosementioned above. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters. If that was true, there would be all kinds of WC guys all over the place kicking ass and taking names. As it is, they are few and far between...and the ones that are good have usually crosstrained pretty significantly in something else.

[LeeCasebolt]

Sevenstar:
sport fighting produces fighters quickly as well.

Sihing: True, because they have the time available to train 8hrs a day, they are pro's, average people have lives that don't revolve around MA training. So they must learn techniques that work in their own right and don't rely on the individuals attributes to a high degree.


Training a max of 4 hrs a week, I'd conservatively estimate my skills increased 10x in my first six months of "sport style" training. Has nothing to do with my (laughable) athletic talent, and everything to do with a training style that demands results.

Lots of us part timers train sport-style, and get fine results.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by sihing

Sihing: True, because they have the time available to train 8hrs a day, they are pro's, average people have lives that don't revolve around MA training.


Randy Couture and other Team Quest members train around 12-16 hours per week. They are elite pro fighters. Your claim that sportfighters are effective because they train 8 hours a day is false. Sportfighters are effective because of their training methodology.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
but on a technical level I believe the Wing Chun utilizes skill sets more than most any of the MA out there, but this is just my opinion.

We have a guy in class that's 6'2" 280ish and very fast for his size....
The only advantage I have over him (I'm almost 6'2", and 185lbs) is my skill is higher, my understanding of the art is higher and I'm faster...
If the two of us tango'd I would definetly have to take him out quick, using more dirtytactics (finger jabs, neck hits, ball busters) If what you said in your first paragraph was true, you shouldn't have to use the "dirty tricks" to take him out.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
True, you don't have to be big and strong for a powerful round kick, but the fact that the kick has to be "powerful" to be effective is my point. My WC punch is not designed to knock one out with 1 punch, but multiple punches in 1 second. After practice the individual punches become more powerful, but we do not believe in the method's of putting all power in one decisive blow, too much commitment there.


It's not about one decisive blow. That would be stupid, in the sense that you are fooling yourself if you think you can rely on that. Can someone be dropped with one technique? Sure. But we know that realistically, it will take more than one. The phrase "punches in bunches" pretty much illustrates the proper mindset.


True, because they have the time available to train 8hrs a day, they are pro's, average people have lives that don't revolve around MA training. So they must learn techniques that work in their own right and don't rely on the individuals attributes to a high degree.

okay, what about non-pros? of my three judo coaches, one is a three time national champ, the other was ranked third in the world and currently cleans up in bjj, and the other is a master of sport in sambo. He competes internationally and was at the judo world championships in judo this year.

What about amateur boxers - golden gloves champs? What about KFM's own merryprankster? WD's mma coach is something like 31 - 3. Surely you don't think that ALL sport fighters train 8 hours a day...

Like FD said, it's more about the training methods than anything.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
I have a great respect for the Gracie's ever since I studied some of the videos and viewed the documentary "Choke" featuring Rickson Gracie. That art is in my mind like WC for the ground, BJJ and WC are light years apart. BJJ is based on reality and has been developed from real world trial and error. WC is based mostly on theory.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"WC is based mostly on theory." (KF)

BULL5HIT !

If you want to make a case against WC and BJJ being similar - that's fine.

But that's also as far as it goes. There's been countless cases of real world trial and error proving the effectiveness of Wing Chun- going back several hundred years - right up to and including everyday in the here and now.

And as to this...

"If the two of us tango'd I would definitely have to take him out quick, using more dirtytactics (finger jabs, neck hits, ball busters)" (sihing)

"If what you said in your first paragraph was true, you shouldn't have to use the "dirty tricks" to take him out." (KF)

What the two of you are calling dirty tricks is, was, and always shall be part of the whole Wing Chun game. There are many moves (and variations of moves)...that are designed to do nothing else other than attack the eyes - for example. The same for temple, carotid, and windpipe shots. Many variations on all of the above.

Now if your attacks on Wing Chun's effectiveness is because of some posts like this...(which happens to be that "first paragragh" you were alluding to)...

"but on a technical level I believe that Wing Chun utilizes skill sets more than most any of the MA out there, but this is just my opinion." (sihing)

Well...then...I got to cut your "over-eager to prove him wrong attitude" some slack - because I think James (sihing) is really deluding himself with these kinds of assertions. And I've told him that on the Wing Chun forum many times.

There's a certain science behind Wing Chun that clearly gives it an advantage in the standup, infight, close-quarter striking/kicking range than most other arts...but that's also as far as it goes.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"WC is based mostly on theory." (KF)

BULL5HIT ! Really now?. There is footage of BJJ challenge matches going all the way back to the 30's. You can go to any MMA site and see videos of BJJ being used. The evidence of the pressure testing of BJJ is all over the place.

But where is the evidence for this "real world" pressure testing of WC? The only things I've ever seen are a few videos of WC fighters NOT USING Wing Chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The evidence exists within countless streetfight encounters that were witnessed and reported on by many people through the years...challenge matches that were witnessed between WC and other arts...(such as by William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, and Bruce Lee. Yuan Kay San is another. Yip Man is another).

I myself have a student who won a full contact tournmament about ten years ago against some karate blackbelts...there have been some Chinese WC people who defeated some Thai boxers during organized events in the Orient back in the day - (Ernie's instructor Gary Lam is one)... Here in the States there's been Duncan Leung who beat alot of people both on the streets and behind dojo doors here in NYC back in the 70's and 80's...

You and I have debated this many times - and while I agree that a large percentage of today's WC schools don't train for reality-fighting the way they should (and was always the tradition before the latest period of time)...but the fact that you don't see WC in Pride or UFC...

that doesn't mean the art is ineffective. I know of some BJJ black belts, for example....who have walked into a certain WC school in New Jersey and were pounded into the ground...never took the instructor down even once.

Your standard is always "show me the scorecard within organized events"...which is a legitimate way of measuring things - but my point is...it's not the only way.

[Samurai Jack]

Well, one of the things that makes the organized fight so much more compelling as evidence than the anecdotal street-fight is the fact that it's been witnessed, reported on, and recorded. The street-fight hasn't. A sanctioned MMA event attempts to match people of similar size and skill level, something that never has taken place in a street encounter. If I witnessed a fight between a muscular 300 pound taiji fighter against a 100 pound BJJ guy, I wouldn't necessarily think that means a thing. Wouldn't you RATHER have your art tested in open competition between competitors of similar size and skill?

Just an observation.

[sihing]

First we hear that to stay in tip top fighting form you have to be training and fighting all the time, then all of a sudden less is more (Sevenstar), lol. You guys should make up your minds..

Victor quote:
"Well...then...I got to cut your "over-eager to prove him wrong attitude" some slack - because I think James (sihing) is really deluding himself with these kinds of assertions. And I've told him that on the Wing Chun forum many times.

There's a certain science behind Wing Chun that clearly gives it an advantage in the standup, infight, close-quarter striking/kicking range than most other arts...but that's also as far as it goes."

I think delusional is the wrong word to use here. I do not think WC is a magical Martial Art that requires no work and effort to learn & apply. To gain high quality in anything in life requires hard work and effort. This is the literal meaning of KUNG-FU. WC is no different. In the end IMO, if one puts the hard work in MT vs. WC, the WC man/woman will win in a fight. Why? Because the movements, strategy, concepts, principals, techniques encompass total effectiveness and efficiency. All arts require sweat to learn, to a high quality. All arts require blood loss to learn to a high quality. All arts require aches and pain to learn to a high quality. WC is no different. So if all of this is equal, what determines the most effective art? The one based on more effective and efficient movements. In the end when strength and speed are equal then skill will win. When strength and speed are not equal, then the only way to bridge that gap for the weaker party is superior skills, technique and concepts in fighting methods. WC provides you with this edge, that was the whole purpose behind it creation. Deny that and you deny it's existence.

Victor,
The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it, and the longer range kicking is there too. Its how the WC system applies it that is different. Like Bruce Lee said, don't grapple a grappler, don't kick a kicker....


James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Well, one of the things that makes the organized fight so much more compelling as evidence than the anecdotal street-fight is the fact that it's been witnessed, reported on, and recorded. The street-fight hasn't. A sanctioned MMA event attempts to match people of similar size and skill level, something that never has taken place in a street encounter. If I witnessed a fight between a muscular 300 pound taiji fighter against a 100 pound BJJ guy, I wouldn't necessarily think that means a thing. Wouldn't you RATHER have your art tested in open competition between competitors of similar size and skill?

Just an observation.

It has, just not reported in large publications. I've related such events before on this forum, only to get "oh yeahs", and "must of been a low level competiton event" comments back at me. There was a current student, who is 18 yrs old today, and at the time of the competition only 16yrs old, with 1-1 1/2 yrs of training behind him. He competed in a Muay Thai sponsored event with similarly matched opponents and cleaned house. They couldn't handle the basic attack of WC and the referees's couldn't either, due to the fact that they charged him with being to aggressive. How does one be to aggressive in a full contact event in MT? He won the event, and since then hasn't decided to enter anymore. The same happened 7 or 8 yrs prior with another student within our school.

James

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by sihing
He competed in a Muay Thai sponsored event with similarly matched opponents and cleaned house. They couldn't handle the basic attack of WC and the referees's couldn't either, due to the fact that they charged him with being to aggressive.

There is no rule regarding being "too aggressive" in any Muay Thai format. You are either wrong, or lying.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
First we hear that to stay in tip top fighting form you have to be training and fighting all the time, then all of a sudden less is more (Sevenstar), lol. You guys should make up your minds..


dude, wake up... if y ou're referring to the threads in the wc forum, we said in order to be called a fighter, you must actually fight. To be in shape, yes you must train. Hard. AND I've said that the avg sport guy trains harder than the avg wc guy. Many here agree with that. But, unless you are like 13, you can't think that we train all day every day.


I think delusional is the wrong word to use here. I do not think WC is a magical Martial Art that requires no work and effort to learn & apply.

naive, maybe?


To gain high quality in anything in life requires hard work and effort. This is the literal meaning of KUNG-FU.

a literal meaning that seems to been lost to the many of people....


WC is no different. In the end IMO, if one puts the hard work in MT vs. WC, the WC man/woman will win in a fight. Why? Because the movements, strategy, concepts, principals, techniques encompass total effectiveness and efficiency.

This is where you see your delusion/naivete.


So if all of this is equal, what determines the most effective art? The one based on more effective and efficient movements.

The one with the best training methods, as I've always said and as FD mentioned earlier.


In the end when strength and speed are equal then skill will win. When strength and speed are not equal, then the only way to bridge that gap for the weaker party is superior skills, technique and concepts in fighting methods. WC provides you with this edge, that was the whole purpose behind it creation. Deny that and you deny it's existence.

If you think this is true, go fight in a local smoker. come back with details.

The grappling is there, you just have to see it, and the longer range kicking is there too. Its how the WC system applies it that is different. Like Bruce Lee said, don't grapple a grappler, don't kick a kicker....

efficiency... grappling is there, but you "have to see it"? Where is the efficiency in that? it should be drilled extensively, not worked on occasion and termed "anti grappling" it should at some point in time be tested. bring in some grapplers and train it against them. Didn't you mention that there were some grapplers at your school? How do they feel about anti-grappling?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
It has, just not reported in large publications. I've related such events before on this forum, only to get "oh yeahs", and "must of been a low level competiton event" comments back at me. There was a current student, who is 18 yrs old today, and at the time of the competition only 16yrs old, with 1-1 1/2 yrs of training behind him. He competed in a Muay Thai sponsored event with similarly matched opponents and cleaned house. They couldn't handle the basic attack of WC and the referees's couldn't either, due to the fact that they charged him with being to aggressive. How does one be to aggressive in a full contact event in MT? He won the event, and since then hasn't decided to enter anymore. The same happened 7 or 8 yrs prior with another student within our school.

James

1. as FD said, there's no such thing as being too agressive in a thai match. someone is either wrong, or lying. And, I bet there is no other evidence of it, is there? Go figure...

however, I will agree that alot goes on that isn't made public. Judo is such a big sport, the internet would die if every judo club in the world posted results of every shiai they attended. Local events don't really garner attention either, but there are still people who record them. There is a guy here who makes DVDs of the local fights. I only recently found out about him, so I don't have any of mine. I'll get one from him next time though.

Two years ago, I was at a continuous sparring tourney (I posted about it here, the weekend after I saw it) - a WC in structor was competing. He was mauled by a shotokan guy. a friend of mine who trains thai boxing cleaned house that day - till he got disqualified for using a knee. He and a TKD black belt that was extremely good. The TKD guy ended up winning the event. the WC guy lost his first fight. I'm sure somebody recorded it - I'll ask around.

[Becca]

Originally posted by SevenStar
efficiency... grappling is there, but you "have to see it"? Where is the efficiency in that? it should be drilled extensively, not worked on occasion and termed "anti grappling" it should at some point in time be tested. bring in some grapplers and train it against them. Didn't you mention that there were some grapplers at your school? How do they feel about anti-grappling?

There are some in my school, too. Most are very interested in the techniques, but are very good ar disswading the gung-ho that it would stop them if they really wanted to pin you. Then they proceded to show us just how effective they could be against the "anti-grappling". The only ones who could evade were the ones who were grapplers to begin with.

The only real anti-grappling technique is to not let the som*****es get thier mitts on you in the first place. And that just don't always work.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor,
The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it, and the longer range kicking is there too. Its how the WC system applies it that is different. Like Bruce Lee said, don't grapple a grappler, don't kick a kicker...." (sihing)


Never said that the standing chi na arm-locking techniques weren't there..or the sweeps...or the longer range kicking...

But these things are not the main thrust of the system - and are therefore (especially the "grappling") limited in scope. No I wouldn't want to grapple a grappler on the floor (or even in the clinch) just using wing chun - because I wouldn't have enough in my arsenal for that.

The main focus of wing chun is standup, close quarter, infight striking/trapping/kicking...but mostly the very close range striking.

That doesn't mean that the other aspects of the art won't enable the WC fighter to do well at closing from long range (some WC systems anyway)...kick from long range...deal with someone trying to take them down, etc.

But against a VERY HIGHLY SKILLED clinch, grapple, and groundfight guy (and especially one who can disguise his entry behind decent strikes)... WC - by itself - is really going to have it's hands full - in such a fight WC has no "advantage" at the standing infight range...it's 50/50 at best, at this point.

I don't like those odds, Do you?

Hence my advocation of crosstraining...which for me is Catch-as-catch-can wrestling...for other WC people I know it's BJJ...for others it might be judo...whatever.

[sihing]

Originally posted by FatherDog
There is no rule regarding being "too aggressive" in any Muay Thai format. You are either wrong, or lying.

That's what I would think also, but this was the case. It was novice division. Samurai Jack made the statement "wouldn't I rather have the art tested in a competition against competitors of similar size and skills. I was just relating a actual competition in which one of our fighters fought people from the MT camp of same size and skill, and he won. End of story. Feel free to believe or not, doesn't matter to me.

James

[SevenStar]

novice division or not, agressiveness doesn't matter. no elbows, no strikes to the groin or front of the knee, no throws. no rule against agressiveness. Do you know who threw this event?

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sihing
First we hear that to stay in tip top fighting form you have to be training and fighting all the time, then all of a sudden less is more (Sevenstar), lol. You guys should make up your minds..


SS:dude, wake up... if y ou're referring to the threads in the wc forum, we said in order to be called a fighter, you must actually fight. To be in shape, yes you must train. Hard. AND I've said that the avg sport guy trains harder than the avg wc guy. Many here agree with that. But, unless you are like 13, you can't think that we train all day every day.

Sihing: Not all day, just most of it, lol...


sihing:"I think delusional is the wrong word to use here. I do not think WC is a magical Martial Art that requires no work and effort to learn & apply."

SS:naive, maybe?

Sihing: so its okay for you to believe what you believe and be right but not the other way around for others with different opinions, and you call yourself a Moderator??? Low standard on this forum I must say...

sihing "To gain high quality in anything in life requires hard work and effort. This is the literal meaning of KUNG-FU."

SS:a literal meaning that seems to been lost to the many of people....

Sihing: maybe, but not to all


sihing"WC is no different. In the end IMO, if one puts the hard work in MT vs. WC, the WC man/woman will win in a fight. Why? Because the movements, strategy, concepts, principals, techniques encompass total effectiveness and efficiency."

SS:This is where you see your delusion/naivete.

Sihing: and this is where I see your tunnel vision towards your own belief's. Disagree with me all you want, but please don't put yourself up on the pedestal and preach to me about delusion and naivete. Put up some video of yourself and we'll go from there. If its good then I will have no problem acknowledging your skills, but until then I'm starting to lose more and more respect for you as the posts continue, since your showing the same for my belief's.

sihing"So if all of this is equal, what determines the most effective art? The one based on more effective and efficient movements."

SS:The one with the best training methods, as I've always said and as FD mentioned earlier.

Sihing: Not if the requirements of that system are strength and speed based. I totally agree with proper training practices. One that doesn't train enough throughout their MA career will have less skills for sure, but if the training intensity is the same btw two individuals from different arts then what determines the more effective art. Things like individual will and heart and toughness are not a accurate measuring tools as these attributes vary to many degrees in people and depends also on the situation where combat is needed, and cannot be trained to any high degree. Either you have heart and will or you don't. IMO the art with more effective/efficient movements is overall a more effective art.


sihing"In the end when strength and speed are equal then skill will win. When strength and speed are not equal, then the only way to bridge that gap for the weaker party is superior skills, technique and concepts in fighting methods. WC provides you with this edge, that was the whole purpose behind it creation. Deny that and you deny it's existence."

SS:If you think this is true, go fight in a local smoker. come back with details.

Sihing: You wouldn't believe me if I did come back with positive results in my favor, so what's the use. Plus I feel no need to prove to you or anyone what my effectiveness is. I've said many times on this forum that I'm not a "fighter" but have very good self-defense abilities. I'd rather be a warrior anyways, as fighters need to constantly prove themselves, warriors don't.

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
novice division or not, agressiveness doesn't matter. no elbows, no strikes to the groin or front of the knee, no throws. no rule against agressiveness. Do you know who threw this event?

His name is Mike Myles, he's the resident Muay Thai champ/coach, and probably has the biggest MA school in the city. He's trained plent of current provincial, national, and international/world champs but I think most amateur fighters. He even walked up to our fighter and said to him is that all he had ( the student was using the most basic of WC techniques, which is obviously all he needed), a sure sign that our fighter was bothering him, otherwise why would a big time trainer be paying attention to a first time fighter in the novice division..

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Becca
There are some in my school, too. Most are very interested in the techniques, but are very good ar disswading the gung-ho that it would stop them if they really wanted to pin you. Then they proceded to show us just how effective they could be against the "anti-grappling". The only ones who could evade were the ones who were grapplers to begin with.

The only real anti-grappling technique is to not let the som*****es get thier mitts on you in the first place. And that just don't always work.

Nothing works 100% of the time, that's why adapability and interruptability is important, and also why WC puts allot of emphasize on these attributes..

James

[SevenStar]

What was the exact rule?

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Victor,
The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it, and the longer range kicking is there too. Its how the WC system applies it that is different. Like Bruce Lee said, don't grapple a grappler, don't kick a kicker...." (sihing)


Never said that the standing chi na arm-locking techniques weren't there..or the sweeps...or the longer range kicking...

But these things are not the main thrust of the system - and are therefore (especially the "grappling") limited in scope. No I wouldn't want to grapple a grappler on the floor (or even in the clinch) just using wing chun - because I wouldn't have enough in my arsenal for that.

The main focus of wing chun is standup, close quarter, infight striking/trapping/kicking...but mostly the very close range striking.

That doesn't mean that the other aspects of the art won't enable the WC fighter to do well at closing from long range (some WC systems anyway)...kick from long range...deal with someone trying to take them down, etc.

But against a VERY HIGHLY SKILLED clinch, grapple, and groundfight guy (and especially one who can disguise his entry behind decent strikes)... WC - by itself - is really going to have it's hands full - in such a fight WC has no "advantage" at the standing infight range...it's 50/50 at best, at this point.

I don't like those odds, Do you?

Hence my advocation of crosstraining...which for me is Catch-as-catch-can wrestling...for other WC people I know it's BJJ...for others it might be judo...whatever.

If fighting anyone of High skill from any MA, your hands will be full. Crosstraining by itself for the individual, if they decide to do this, is fine, nothing wrong with adding to your system, just have a base system to build on then go from there. My problem is that lots of people believe you "HAVE" to do this to be effective at combat. The word effective is subjective, but in this context it means against the general public and against the most likely things you will meet in the street confrontation. Of course I would be concerned if I had to take out Mike Tyson, and if I could avoid it I would obviously. My point is that if I had to do this, like if Mike was killing my family, then I would be more effective against him using WC in my opinion. Maybe not so effective if the circumstance was in a competition, just because some are not turned on that way about competitions and such. I'm one of those. But real life is different from competitions as you have no idea who or what your opponent on the street knows of combat and fighting. To be successful you have to take him out fast or else risk getting defeated, and IMO WC does this the best. It's just my opinion and anyone is free to disagree. Peace...

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
What was the exact rule?

I don't know the exact rule. I can only guess that because it was a first timers event that they implemented the "too aggressive" rule. The point is the WC guy did quite well against the MT guys of similar experience.

James

[Vash]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22Mike+Myles%22%2Bmuay+thai%2Bcalgary&btnG=Search

[sihing]

sorry, try Mike Miles, without the "y".

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=Mike+Miles+%22calgary%22&meta=

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing

Sihing: so its okay for you to believe what you believe and be right but not the other way around for others with different opinions, and you call yourself a Moderator??? Low standard on this forum I must say...

you are free to believe what you want. However, this is a public forum, and when you post what you believe, you can expect it to be challenged. Welcome to internet 101. Second, you really have no experience with other styles, so when I hear opinions such as yours vs. those of anerlich, UWC and others on the forum, whom do you think I'd see as more credible on such topics?


Sihing: maybe, but not to all

to enough that the arts has the general rep that is does today.


and this is where I see your tunnel vision towards your own belief's.

what tunnel vision? I was in TMA prior to doing what I do now. I don't have tunnel vision for mma, but when someone who has not trained in anything other than wc makes statements like "In the end IMO, if one puts the hard work in MT vs. WC, the WC man/woman will win in a fight", the BS meter goes off. Not only that, but it shows YOUR tunnel vision. Even your fellow WC brethren are disagreeing with you.


Not if the requirements of that system are strength and speed based.

we've had this discussion several times on the wc forum. The arts you are referring to use all of the same attributes you say wc teaches - timing, distancing, angling, etc. This is basic and should be inherent to all MA styles.


I totally agree with proper training practices. One that doesn't train enough throughout their MA career will have less skills for sure, but if the training intensity is the same btw two individuals from different arts then what determines the more effective art.

and with this you are implying that wc is more effective? Here goes the tunnel vision again...


Things like individual will and heart and toughness are not a accurate measuring tools as these attributes vary to many degrees in people and depends also on the situation where combat is needed, and cannot be trained to any high degree. Either you have heart and will or you don't.

This I agree with.


IMO the art with more effective/efficient movements is overall a more effective art.

This I disagre with. If your effective movements aren't trained in a proper and efficient manner, how much good will they do you?



You wouldn't believe me if I did come back with positive results in my favor, so what's the use.

That's not true at all. You don't strike me as a compulsive liar, so what reason would I have to disbelieve you?



Plus I feel no need to prove to you or anyone what my effectiveness is.


It's not really about proving it, IMO. at some point in time, I think that all MA should test themselves. The ring is ideal for that. Some type of outside testing. Heck, go to taiji legacy and enter shuai chiao. Enter a san da tournament. doesn't matter what, but IMO should be done at some point.



I've said many times on this forum that I'm not a "fighter" but have very good self-defense abilities. I'd rather be a warrior anyways, as fighters need to constantly prove themselves, warriors don't.

Umm.... unless you've been in a war, you can never be considered a WARrior. and fighters don't fight because they have to prove themselves. Fighters fight because they like to fight. That's what's in them. Heck, I lost my last fight. I have no problem saying that. If I was out to prove something, I wouldn't be proud to say that. But losing happens. a fighter fights because it is in them to do so.

[SevenStar]

which one was miles - the ref, the sponsor or the trainer that went up to your guy?

[sihing]

Miles went up to our guy. The sponsor of the event.

[SevenStar]

if his interview of joe lewis reflects his feelings at all, he doesn't think too highly of wing chun:

http://www.mikemiles.com/people/interviews/lewis.cfm

his gym in southeast calgary teaches CMA though...

[sihing]

I do understand the nuiances of Internet etiquette, each and everyone on the interent has a opinion, and most on here let us all know.

Your free to apply credibility to anyone on here over me, I just wonder why those you mentioned haven't put video of themselves up on here for all to see..things that make us go hmmmm...

and to what rep are you talking about? I just signed up a MT fighter that said his former instructor used the phrase "Muay Thai is king of the ring, Wing Chun is king of the street", sounds like a good rep to me..

I have no problem saying that IMO WING CHUN IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE MA IN THE WORLD, we have used this in our advertising for years, not many have come down to find out, same as the Krav Maga gym down the street does now, but you don't see me running down to see them to complain or ask for proof. That happened to me once and I was challenged to find out, in the end I told the guy to throw the first punch and he failed to comply. Years later he appologized to me because he was brainwashed by his teacher to do such things..I may not have the years of training that you may have in multiple arts, but over the years I've met enough MA of all kinds of styles that come in to verify what I have said in all of these posts and what I stated above. Again fell free to disagree, but the BS meter is non-existent.


Yes all arts have angling, distancing and timing in them, I've never denied that, but to repeat myself again, IMO not to the same degree. For example, our guarding postion, requires no movement of my hands when he throws any punch to my head, regardless if it is round or straight when foot positioning is proper in relationship with the opponent . This means I have economy of movement in my guard and strong structure. The only thing I'm thinking about is the opening in my opponents structure and when to attack instead of my openings. People that protect the outer area of the head and open up the centerline expose themselves to the fastest movements, straight lines, therefore if you do it this way you have more to think about (moving your hand to protect the straight attack, whereas I don't since that, as well as the round/hook is already protected) Things like this are damm hard to explain on internet threads, but have to be demonstrated in person for some to understand.

I tested my self already many times through out my MA career. In my own kwoon and outside. Used to enter tournaments but the point tourney's sucked. We hit them to much and in the end it was all a game of tag anyways, plus they had no power and you could just stand there and take their best shot and nothing would come of it. I lost all desire of competitions after those few.
I do agree with you that you have to test what you know and test yourself, to push yourself and learn from your mistakes..


Then please tell me, what makes a MA effective, beside training practices, because we all know that you have to train hard to learn anything. What else is there that makes Muay Thai effective? What makes Shuai chiao effective? Please tell me then maybe I can understand more.

Then if one doesn't like to fight, does that mean they can't? I don't like fighting, but I can if I have to. Warriors are anyone that has learned the lessons, fought the wars and has no need to do it again. I'm not saying I am a warrior, but I've learned from one, and I tend to believe what he says.

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I know of some BJJ black belts, for example....who have walked into a certain WC school in New Jersey and were pounded into the ground...never took the instructor down even once. How convenient that none of those were ever recorded. Either that is complete BS or whoever owns that school in New Jersey is a complete idiot in terms of marketing his business. Can you imagine the PR potential of a WC instructor beating down several BJJ blackbelts? If that really happened that instructor would have to be very stupid to not record the beatdowns. That would be the wing chun public relations coupe of the century.

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
if his interview of joe lewis reflects his feelings at all, he doesn't think too highly of wing chun:

http://www.mikemiles.com/people/interviews/lewis.cfm

his gym in southeast calgary teaches CMA though...

I don't think Lewis has a great opinion of WC also, at least the WC of the past, where most practiticioners lived off the arts reputation. I agree with you here Sevenstar, if this is the case then it doesn't matter what MA you participate in, if you haven't put the work in you will not succeed in it.

My Sifu put 27yrs into other Kung-fu systems, systems that he used many times in fighting/self defence situations that worked well for him, and he dropped them all when he learned the proper WC. He realized the potential of it and its effectiveness. I believe the same.

Sifu has been in Calgary since 89' and has advertised his WC as the most effective MA, so Miles has had plenty of time and opportunity to come down to test him out, but hasn't yet...

Allot of gyms here are saying they teach CMA as part of their cirriculum, since kung-fu is making a come back, but most of it is bogus...Calgary has a ton of MA here, more than Vancouver which is 3X our size in population..


James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
So if all of this is equal, what determines the most effective art? The one based on more effective and efficient movements. In the end when strength and speed are equal then skill will win. When strength and speed are not equal, then the only way to bridge that gap for the weaker party is superior skills, technique and concepts in fighting methods. And those skills come from constant full contact sparring and/or competitions.




Originally posted by sihing
The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it,What do you mean, you just have to see it. If you are not actually practicing it, it might as well not be there.



Originally posted by sihing
WC provides you with this edge, that was the whole purpose behind it creation. Only in theory.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
It has, just not reported in large publications. I've related such events before on this forum, only to get "oh yeahs", and "must of been a low level competiton event" comments back at me. There was a current student, who is 18 yrs old today, and at the time of the competition only 16yrs old, with 1-1 1/2 yrs of training behind him. He competed in a Muay Thai sponsored event with similarly matched opponents and cleaned house. They couldn't handle the basic attack of WC and the referees's couldn't either, due to the fact that they charged him with being to aggressive. How does one be to aggressive in a full contact event in MT? Sihing- Still being the stupid guy, I see.
You answered your own question. How does one be too aggressive in a Muay Thai event? Obviously, it had to be an incredibly low level event because there is no such thing as being too aggressive in Muay Thai.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I know of some BJJ black belts, for example....who have walked into a certain WC school in New Jersey and were pounded into the ground...never took the instructor down even once." (Ultimatewingchun)


"How convenient that none of those were ever recorded. Either that is complete BS or whoever owns that school in New Jersey is a complete idiot in terms of marketing his business. Can you imagine the PR potential of a WC instructor beating down several BJJ blackbelts?" (KF)

I hate to break this to you, Dale...but to some people in the world this is not such a big deal.

You act as if BJJ is unbeatable.

It's not.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
He even walked up to our fighter and said to him is that all he had ( the student was using the most basic of WC techniques, which is obviously all he needed), a sure sign that our fighter was bothering him, otherwise why would a big time trainer be paying attention to a first time fighter in the novice division Either you WC guys must think the rest of the world is incredibly naive, or, in reality, the people you come in contact in with who are running business have zero business sense. A guy just completely tears up the novice division of a MT event and the trainer, whose livelihood relies on him recruiting new talent, walks up to him and harrasses him? Give me a break... the first thing any "champion" trainer would do would be to congratulate him and try to get him into his gym to start training and competing for him.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I hate to break this to you, Dale...but to some people in the world this is not such a big deal.

You act as if BJJ is unbeatable.

It's not. BJJ is definitely beatable. However, a WC guy who "pounded into the ground" several BJJ blackbelts would be pretty big news in the martial arts world.

Something like that could be parlayed into millions. But of course, that instructor is probably too enlighted to care about anything as mundane as money. Either that, or too dense to realize the potential that could have for his business.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
I do understand the nuiances of Internet etiquette, each and everyone on the interent has a opinion, and most on here let us all know.

Your free to apply credibility to anyone on here over me, I just wonder why those you mentioned haven't put video of themselves up on here for all to see..things that make us go hmmmm...

I'm referring to the merits of a post, not an attestment of skill. Those mentioned have had direct experience with other styles. You, however, have not.


and to what rep are you talking about? I just signed up a MT fighter that said his former instructor used the phrase "Muay Thai is king of the ring, Wing Chun is king of the street", sounds like a good rep to me..

howard stern is known as the king of all media. not everyone knows that he gave himself that name though, and it stuck... Like I've said, I don't doubt that WC can be effective, but if WC as a whole (or at least a majority) isn't trained properly, how well does it actually live up to the name? Even other WC guys on this forum say that it's not trained correctly in many schools.


I have no problem saying that IMO WING CHUN IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE MA IN THE WORLD

tunnel vision...


we have used this in our advertising for years, not many have come down to find out, same as the Krav Maga gym down the street does now, but you don't see me running down to see them to complain or ask for proof.

the point is not to go and ask for proof...UNLESS you are making claims like that. Especially in the case of someone with no other experience. I know many of the instructors in my area and am very friendly with them. I did make a trip to spar with the krav maga guys though. This is not the 15th century - people don't come to your school daily in order to challenge your teacher and take the school's sign if he wins.



People that protect the outer area of the head and open up the centerline expose themselves to the fastest movements, straight lines, therefore if you do it this way you have more to think about (moving your hand to protect the straight attack, whereas I don't since that, as well as the round/hook is already protected) Things like this are damm hard to explain on internet threads, but have to be demonstrated in person for some to understand.

who holds their hands open like that? you're not referring to the old thai stance that you see on tv, are you?


I tested my self already many times through out my MA career. In my own kwoon and outside. Used to enter tournaments but the point tourney's sucked. We hit them to much and in the end it was all a game of tag anyways, plus they had no power and you could just stand there and take their best shot and nothing would come of it. I lost all desire of competitions after those few.
I do agree with you that you have to test what you know and test yourself, to push yourself and learn from your mistakes..

I don't consider sparring in kwoon as testing, but I definitely agree on point tourneys. i hate them with a passion.


Then please tell me, what makes a MA effective, beside training practices, because we all know that you have to train hard to learn anything. What else is there that makes Muay Thai effective? What makes Shuai chiao effective? Please tell me then maybe I can understand more.

it's not merely training hard. it's training efficiently and effectively. shuai chiao guys' training methods are directly related to how they fight, from stances to sparring. thai boxers do the same. of forms are done as drills as opposed to long drawn out forms, the pad work is drilling what you are training into you while simultaneously building stamina, teaching you about distance and angling, entering, etc. These things in combination with regular sparring contribute to making them what they are. it's not only training hard, but training smart as well.


Then if one doesn't like to fight, does that mean they can't? I don't like fighting, but I can if I have to.

In the context of ring fighters, which is what we were talking about, then yes. you by your standards are a "warrior" and not in the category I was talking about. As far as fighting in the street goes, yes, many people can when they have to. To be honest though, I don't think I would classify them as fighters though. Ther term 'fighter' implies that you fight, not that you fight (defend?) yourself when you have to.


Warriors are anyone that has learned the lessons, fought the wars and has no need to do it again. I'm not saying I am a warrior, but I've learned from one, and I tend to believe what he says.


: a man engaged or experienced in warfare; broadly : a person engaged in some struggle or conflict



Main Entry: war·fare
Pronunciation: 'wor-"far, -"fer
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from werre, warre war + fare journey, passage -- more at FARE

military operations between enemies : HOSTILITIES, WAR; also : an activity undertaken by a political unit (as a nation) to weaken or destroy another <economic warfare>

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Something like that could be parlayed into millions. But of course, that instructor is probably too enlighted to care about anything as mundane as money. Either that, or too dense to realize the potential that could have for his business." (KF)

The guy has over 100 students.

Teaching martial arts is all that he does for a living.

Lives in an upper-middleclass town...owns a nice house...several vehicles...a wife and a son.

He's doin' fine.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident." (sihing)


"in the beginning, possibly. That's natural for anyone. As we (I'm one of those big guys, so I have a lot of experience in this area) progess, we learn to relax and learn not to rely on our size and strength as that will stagnate learning. IME, it won't make you overconfident for long. Get beat by enough little guys and that will change. Size and strength is indeed an advantage though, and you will learn when and how to use it." (SevenStar)


"That art is in my mind like WC for the ground, very sophisticated and effective, except I do not believe it is sound strategy to fight on the ground." (sihing)

"Don't look at it that way - If we are both in a bar fight and we both get taken to the ground and mounted, who is more likely to be able to get up most quickly and efficiently - you with no grappling training, or me? Who is likely better at defending against a solid takedown? It's not necessarily about finishing the fight on the ground, but about being able to handle yourself wherever you may be." (SevenStar)

"We have not had our heads stuck in the ground for decades, and are aware of the others arts out there today, and what they have to offer also." (sihing)

"it sounds like you have an incomplete picture though." (SevenStar)


"I could go all day on the reason's why WC is very efficient." (sihing)

"I don't disagree. but to think that as far as efficiency goes the wc is leaps and bounds above everything else is incorrect, IMO." (SevenStar)

"All of the above people that won are pros, and very skilled athletes, exceptions to the rule. Every MA has people like this in them, including yourself. WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don't work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters." (sihing)

"There is no physical pre-req. the muay thai roundhouse, for example is powerful due to the mechanics of it. You don't have to be big and strong to deliver a solid one.

sport fighting produces fighters quickly as well. " (SevenStar)

"Most average people cannot train like those mentioned above." (sihing)

"yes, they can. At my club, you will train as if you have an upcoming fight - whether you fight or not, you will be in competition shape and will have the skill development to go with it. IME, this is how sport fighting clubs in general are." (Sevenstar)

.................................................. ..............................


I realize that this exchange was much earlier in the thread - but I've really got to comment on this.

First of all...next May will be 30 years that I'm doing Wing Chun...but I've got to agree with SevenStar in just about everything that went on in this exchange with James (sihing)...especially this last part:

"yes, they can. At my club, you will train as if you have an upcoming fight - whether you fight or not, you will be in competition shape and will have the skill development to go with it. IME, this is how sport fighting clubs in general are." (Sevenstar)

And this is the key to the whole exchange...by his own admission James doesn't engage in hard contact sparring/training anymore - which is why he's just not "getting it".

And what's it?

Wing Chun is great stuff...but without that kind of hard training on a frequent basis against skilled fighters who can really use some of the non-wing chun moves that SevenStar has alluded to...James will never be adequately exposed to what's out there today; because if he were...he'd know that it's wise to do some crosstraining in a grappling art.

[Knifefighter]

Victor:
Ask him if he'd like to make some really big money. If so, and he would be willing and able to actually demonstrate his ability of dominating a couple of BJJ blackbelts again, I'd like to talk to him personally. I've got quite a few contacts and, if he can really do what you say he can, I'm interested in possibly promoting him.

[BAI HE]

The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it,

Now WC is grappling art, a stand up art, a street fighting art, a kicking art____ (fill in the blank) Is there any marketing key word you don't jump on? Please, this is tiresome. Was there ever a WC system of ground fighting? No.

You tell me what system outside of Fukien "Dog Boxing" specialized or trained in that range.
Then tell me how that was incorporated into WC boxing.

Many CMA's train throwing, and excel in this area. But groundwork? No, Unless you are re-writing history.

[BAI HE]

"Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident." (sihing)

Sweeping generalization. I take it Sihing is small.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"WC is based mostly on theory." (KF)And speaking of WC's over-reliance on theory, all one has to do is visit the WC forum to see this in action. 90% of the stuff is about theory. There are pages and pages of theoretical discussion on energy generation, center line theory, blind side theory, structural theory, Steiner point triangular theory, internal energy generation theories, arguments about what is the correct weight distribution, how high to raise the bong sao, whose lineage is better or more real, whether or not chi sao is sparring, etc, etc, ad naseum.

And speaking of sparring, you guys are so off the deep end on theory that it becomes a major project to actually have WC guys think about sparring other WC people. First you have pages and pages of discussion on the theoretical implications of sparring with each other in the first place. And after all that, does anyone get together to spar? No, you then come up with a 10 point theoretical proposal on the theory of WC guys getting together with other WC guys to think about theoretically sparring with each other sometime and someplace in the future.

[rogue]

Knifefighter LOL.
:D :D :D :D :D :D

[sihing]

Originally posted by BAI HE
The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it,

[B]Now WC is grappling art, a stand up art, a street fighting art, a kicking art____ (fill in the blank) Is there any marketing key word you don't jump on? Please, this is tiresome. Was there ever a WC system of ground fighting? No.
B]

As a matter of fact....thanks for bring it all up and out in the open as to what the WC system is all about. Not all WC is equal, so until you have seen it all then I would not comment. While some see only trapping and punching, others see a larger picture...

James

[rogue]

But where does someone see that form of WC? Sihing you're the one saying that WC is the best. Not just a good art but the best. People want something to back that statement up.

Are those mullets I see? (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/angusm/wingchun/about/sifu.html)

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

I realize that this exchange was much earlier in the thread - but I've really got to comment on this.

First of all...next May will be 30 years that I'm doing Wing Chun...but I've got to agree with SevenStar in just about everything that went on in this exchange with James (sihing)...especially this last part:

"yes, they can. At my club, you will train as if you have an upcoming fight - whether you fight or not, you will be in competition shape and will have the skill development to go with it. IME, this is how sport fighting clubs in general are." (Sevenstar)

And this is the key to the whole exchange...by his own admission James doesn't engage in hard contact sparring/training anymore - which is why he's just not "getting it".

And what's it?

Wing Chun is great stuff...but without that kind of hard training on a frequent basis against skilled fighters who can really use some of the non-wing chun moves that SevenStar has alluded to...James will never be adequately exposed to what's out there today; because if he were...he'd know that it's wise to do some crosstraining in a grappling art.

This is not about individual assets and abilities. I've always tried to talk about Wing Chun as a art on it's own, in comparison to other arts. All arts have effective fighters that can make their systems work. I've got no problems there. My point is always about effectiveness of movements and how well can average people with average time commitments to MA training apply what they learn, not grand champs of international events.

I always tell new students that they may not be the best fighter but they will not make it easy for any one of MA ability that attacks them or anyone else for that matter. And if a little more training is all it takes to beat them then that is a easy process to complete, and one I would rather complete than learning a whole new set of MA techniques to overcome the "modern day Martial Artist".. Once again it is all there in the system for the taking.. That's it for me on this thread..


James

[sihing]

Originally posted by rogue
But where does someone see that form of WC? Sihing you're the one saying that WC is the best. Not just a good art but the best. People want something to back that statement up.

Are those mullets I see? (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/angusm/wingchun/about/sifu.html)

Best is subjective. Best for what? Effective is more applicable. If you don't think what your studying now is the most effective, why do you continue to study it? It's a free country, and no one is keeping anyone from leaving there kwoon. So therefore, all that study what they do believe the same, otherwise they would learn it. Paul Vunak obviously believes what he does it the most effective, othewise he would not advocate/teach what he does, no different with my statement. Krav Maga does the same in Calgary and I have no need to ask them to back it up. I'm secure in my knowledge and only people with weak ego's need to do these things. If you don't believe what I say then so be it, ignore all posts by me. There's only so much I can explain on a internet forum, sooner or later if you want to know why I feel the way I do then you will have to learn the same methods as I and experience the same things.

James

P.S. Yes, I guess that's a mullet for me, but that was the style of the time(early 90's). No big deal, all of us I have changed fashions over the years, so to try and make silly comments like mullets just shows immaturity.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
And speaking of WC's over-reliance on theory, all one has to do is visit the WC forum to see this in action. 90% of the stuff is about theory. There are pages and pages of theoretical discussion on energy generation, center line theory, blind side theory, structural theory, Steiner point triangular theory, internal energy generation theories, arguments about what is the correct weight distribution, how high to raise the bong sao, whose lineage is better or more real, whether or not chi sao is sparring, etc, etc, ad naseum.

And speaking of sparring, you guys are so off the deep end on theory that it becomes a major project to actually have WC guys think about sparring other WC people. First you have pages and pages of discussion on the theoretical implications of sparring with each other in the first place. And after all that, does anyone get together to spar? No, you then come up with a 10 point theoretical proposal on the theory of WC guys getting together with other WC guys to think about theoretically sparring with each other sometime and someplace in the future.

Dayum.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
This is not about individual assets and abilities. I've always tried to talk about Wing Chun as a art on it's own, in comparison to other arts. All arts have effective fighters that can make their systems work. I've got no problems there. My point is always about effectiveness of movements and how well can average people with average time commitments to MA training apply what they learn, not grand champs of international events.

you're right, it's not about individual assets. Look at the style as a whole. When people think muay thai, what do they expect? When people think WC, what do they expect? Now, let's think about why this is so...


And if a little more training is all it takes to beat them then that is a easy process to complete, and one I would rather complete than learning a whole new set of MA techniques to overcome the "modern day Martial Artist".. Once again it is all there in the system for the taking..


Tunnel vision...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Best is subjective. Best for what? Effective is more applicable.


Originally posted by sihing

I have no problem saying that IMO WING CHUN IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE MA IN THE WORLD


If you don't think what your studying now is the most effective, why do you continue to study it? It's a free country, and no one is keeping anyone from leaving there kwoon.

because I like it. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that many MA don't study their given art because they think it's the "most effective"

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
If you don't think what your studying now is the most effective, why do you continue to study it? It's a free country, and no one is keeping anyone from leaving there kwoon.

because I like it. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that many MA don't study their given art because they think it's the "most effective"

[/QUOTE]

Interesting you say that Sevenstar. A Husband and Wife team just joined the school and I was talking with the wife today, who has a black belt in TKD, and I asked why she stopped training in that art. She said "It wasn't very practical for self-defense", but I guess in your eyes, and lots here that's the rare exception rather than the norm, right?

James

[Baji Brad]

I'd say so.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"This is not about individual assets and abilities. I've always tried to talk about Wing Chun as a art on it's own, in comparison to other arts." (sihing)


On the contrary...it most certainly is about individual assets and liabilities.

And your lack of assets (ie. - hard sparring in general and work against skilled non-WC fighting in particular)...

is becoming a liability...(to the rest of the WC people who DO HAVE the experience - and who become guilty by association).

Guilty by association in what regard?

In regard to your claims.

You can "talk"...but you have no right to BRAG about Wing Chun as an art on its own, in comparison to other arts...WHEN YOU DON'T DO ANY HARD SPARRING COMPARISONS.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"This is not about individual assets and abilities. I've always tried to talk about Wing Chun as a art on it's own, in comparison to other arts." (sihing)


On the contrary...it most certainly is about individual assets and liabilities.

And your lack of assets (ie. - hard sparring in general and work against skilled non-WC fighting in particular)...

is becoming a liability...(to the rest of the WC people who DO HAVE the experience - and who become guilty by association since they also do WC).

Guilty by association in what regard?

In regard to your claims.

You can "talk"...but you have no right to BRAG about Wing Chun as an art on its own, in comparison to other arts...WHEN YOU DON'T DO ANY HARD SPARRING COMPARISONS.

Then everything you say is strictly in regards to your own ability, and means nothing to someone else, because their abilities are different from your own. Therefore you are unable to teach anything to anyone because again your ability is different from others. This makes no sense...

In the highest levels of achievement in anything, sport, business, life or MA, yes individual attributes will make a difference. Ali wasn't Ali just because he knew the basics of boxing but he added his own uniqueness to it, and fortunately for him he had allot of uniqueness to add. Victor, your WC and my WC are different because we have transcended the art and have added our own uniqueness to it. My natural gifts/attributes have been added to my WC, as yours have to your WC, but to pass it on to others we have to teach them the core principals and concepts, as well as core techniques to each and all in their original form. The question is how effective is this "original form" or foundation as some like to say. Regardless of whether or not I am in tiptop condition or training with others now in present time, I still have the basics in me and always will, as well as the knowledge of what I have learned in the past from interactions with others. If one does what you advocate then the process is endless, and one should be prepared for a lifetime of training and searching for answers to the next obstacle or art to come along in MA. Principals and concepts are universal, training methods and adaptation of those core principals will adjust to the ever-increasing abilities of today's fighters and situations. Keep our heads in the sand for 10yrs and you will be behind the times, but learn about other arts strengths and weaknesses and the WC will be fine for future generations to come.

If your so worried about the "guilty by association" and that I am such a bad representative, then post some video of yourself, sparring, teaching, practicing whatever and we will see what you have to offer also. I've already done so, and can show more if needed that reflect my abilities...


James

[omarthefish]

Wow.... :eek: .....you've trancended the art.....

That's awsome dude! :D

lol


Originally posted by sihing


Interesting you say that Sevenstar. A Husband and Wife team just joined the school and I was talking with the wife today, who has a black belt in TKD, and I asked why she stopped training in that art. She said "It wasn't very practical for self-defense", but I guess in your eyes, and lots here that's the rare exception rather than the norm, right?

James [/B][/QUOTE]

This is such such a retarded and misplaced counter-example it just takes my breath away.

1. "just joined the school..." - they could very well make the same exact conclusion about WC as they did about TKD. Will see what happens in a few months.

2. Irrelevent anyways. There are so many many miles...nay...lightyears of distance between "not very practical for self defense" and "the best art there is".

2a. Even if "practical for self defense" IS an absolute must...which it OFTEN isn't...there are ENDLESS lists of styles which meet that rather basic requirement.

Check into a capoera school and see how many people are worried about self defense. Same thing for a class in floor gymnastics..er.....competition standardized wushu. How about the "for health only" Taiji crowd? What about people who really want to have ripped abs but find weight training, running laps and calisthenics as boring as watching paint dry. What about people who really really love full contact competition? What about people who just want a hobby? What about those of us who are not prepared to quit their job move half way around the world and do whatever it takes to find the best style but would rather just see what't in their area?

The list goes on and on.

Knifefighter,

**** that summary on the previous page was funny.

This guy is just asking for a televised beatdown. ...I gotta check out this mullet.

[omarthefish]

Nice mullet.

This little excerpt is a gem though:


William Cheung has even said, "In my career I have had two exceptional students and they both have the same initials. One is no longer with us and one is standing right over there. I only wish that when I was a student I had a teacher like him." (referring to Bruce Lee (deceased) and Brian Lewadny)

Now Bruce Lee was a student of William Cheung!?!

Last I checked the little dragon was one of Yip Man's students and Cheung was that guy who got punked out by Bozetepe 20 years ago. Jeeesh. No wonder people make fun on WC.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Then everything you say is strictly in regards to your own ability, and means nothing to someone else, because their abilities are different from your own. Therefore you are unable to teach anything to anyone because again your ability is different from others. This makes no sense...

That's not what he's saying, Even though you are teaching them based on their experiences, you still must experience things for yourself in order to fully understand them. A coach can spend years telling a fighter what it's like to be in the ring, but until the fighter gets in for himself, he'll never really know. An instructor can tell a fighter what it's like to be in a streetfight involving multiple opponents, but until the student has done it (and hopefully he won't have to) He will never truly know what it's like.

To quote the movie "the perfect weapon":

"I have shown you the dragon, but you have not seen him"


Keep our heads in the sand for 10yrs and you will be behind the times, but learn about other arts strengths and weaknesses and the WC will be fine for future generations to come.

This I agree with. I don't think that video tape instruction counts though.

[rogue]

If you don't think what your studying now is the most effective, why do you continue to study it?
Using Vunak is a bad example since the guy doesn't use any one art exclusivly. Every guy that I've met that knows what they were talking about never would say what they did as their main art was the most effective. That includes traditional martial artists to special ops. All have a base style that they like and gets them a certain percentage of effectivness and then they've filled the holes in that base with other arts. Matter of fact they use other arts to find the holes in what they do. I think WC is a great base art but to think it's going to make you 100% effective martial artists is just silly. But some people like drinking the koolaid.

Wearing a mullet at any point in ones life shows bad judgement.

[sihing]

Originally posted by rogue
Using Vunak is a bad example since the guy doesn't use any one art exclusivly. Every guy that I've met that knows what they were talking about never would say what they did as their main art was the most effective. That includes traditional martial artists to special ops. All have a base style that they like and gets them a certain percentage of effectivness and then they've filled the holes in that base with other arts. Matter of fact they use other arts to find the holes in what they do. I think WC is a great base art but to think it's going to make you 100% effective martial artists is just silly. But some people like drinking the koolaid.

Wearing a mullet at any point in ones life shows bad judgement.

It wasn't about using one art exclusively, the example of Vunak is his belief in his methods, and how effective he believes they are. Whether he learns 100 arts and combines them or finds all he needs in one art, he believes his method is the most effective, otherwise he would continue to add on to it. He's not concerned about how the art looks to others or whether or not he enjoy's the training in that particular art (like some on here) but he's totally into street effectiveness. Does he respect other Martial Arts methods? Yes I would think so, as do I. Doesn't matter who I would be facing in a fight, I would respect their method and not be over confident, that's the first rule, respect yourself and your opponent. Even Vunak's teacher Dan Inosanto called one man the deadliest fighter around back in the late 80' & 90's, and was a practiticoner of one system, Pentjak Serak Silat, Paul De Thouars. I read the mag article and ordered some tapes of the system described and found out for myself as best I could (living thousands of miles away from where Inosanto and De Thouras live, it was out of the question to visit them) about the system in question. I didn't put them down for their belief's.

Rogue,
Can't you do any better than pick on my old mullet? You've been around for long long while, what else do you have issue with? At least our website works....

James

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Nice mullet.

This little excerpt is a gem though:



Now Bruce Lee was a student of William Cheung!?!

Last I checked the little dragon was one of Yip Man's students and Cheung was that guy who got punked out by Bozetepe 20 years ago. Jeeesh. No wonder people make fun on WC.


from what i gathered, Yip Man did little of actual instruction. He taught a couple senior students. Then, these senior students did most of the "instructing" in place of the Yi Man. Yip Man would come in to correct things, but the daily grind was being taken cared by Yip's senior students. so, Mr. Cheung did instruct "little dragon" in place of Yip Man. but the actual lineage relationship is senior kung-fu brother to younger kung-fu brother.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That is correct, WanderingMonk.

Bruce Lee was introduced to Yip Man by a friend he looked up to - William Cheung...and learned most of his Wing Chun from William Cheung and Wong Shun Leung. The three of them did most of the rooftop and street fighting in Hong Kong back in the 1950's that basically put Yip Man's school on the map at that time. (And in his earlier years Yip Man himself made something of a name for himself as a figher as well).

As to William Cheung being "punked"....no...that's not what happened.

But please don't confuse any of this with some of the over-the-top claims made by James Roller (sihing) and the website he directed people to earlier...and yeah...the mullet doesn't help matters either.

[rogue]

Victor, do you see Wing Chun moving from chi sao (sp?) competitions to sanda? If so what changes or additions to training, techniques and tactics would you see happening?

Please don't all the WC folk take this wrong, but isn't it time to put the roof top fights and Bruce Lee behind you and make a new reputation in the time we live in?

The only two guys who looked cool in a mullet were Watchman and Billy Ray Cyrus.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor, do you see Wing Chun moving from chi sao (sp?) competitions to sanda? If so what changes or additions to training, techniques and tactics would you see happening?" (rogue)

I do see it in the future. It has been done from time-to-time in various amatuer and low level tournaments...I myself have a student who won a full contact tournmment against some karate fighters some years ago - and I know of a number of people who have done the same.

But unfortunately most Wing Chun schools/lineages prefer the chi sao competitions - which I believe is a total waste of time...and I'm not alone in this belief - a significant number of other Wing Chun people from various lineages believe as I do.

In fact - the "10 Point Proposal" thread that knifefighter referred to earlier is my attempt (along with some other people) to get something organized going in this regard. (It was a natural consequence of another thread entitled: "Wing Chun: the Good, the Bad, & Ugly").

We are trying to organize an informal non-partisan Wing Chun get-together in May, 2005 for the express purpose of promoting more realistic sparring within the Wing Chun community. (Although sparring is not required by all those participating in the event. If there are others who just want to do chi sao or drills - that's their business - and there won't be any pressure put upon them to spar).

As for me personally, I've been training myself and my students in full contact for many years now (using protective gear)...as well as teaching clinch fighting and groundgrappling. (I'm also a student of Tony Cecchine in Catch-as-Catch-can wrestling).

But the get-together in May is a positive first step I believe toward institutionalizing a more formal, inter-lineage full contact Wing Chun tournament scene....at least that's how I see it - and that's how I hope it eventually turns out.

It will take a lot of work and willpower on the part of a fair number of Wing Chun people...because Wing Chun politics has been a very big drawback for many years now.

And as for some Wing Chun participation in pro MMA events...I would love to see that - and believe that sooner or later that will be on somebody's plate as well. As for changes in techniques and tactics - I believe that (at the very least)...more clinch training using knees and elbows, sweeps and throws - and becoming proficient with the use of the sprawl and the whi//zer against single and double leg shoots would have to be on the table for a Wing Chun fighter - as well as real grappling escapes and reversals from the ground.

Actually...one good thing I have to say about James Roller (sihing) is that he's one of the people who is willing to come to this event in May, 2005 and participate.

[diego]

without diego having to read 12 pages..what have we learned today class?:) anyone care tosum up this thread...did a tai chi guy win in mma?

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by diego
...did a tai chi guy win in mma?

If you only read the first page, you will know the answer to that question. the rest is WC approach as complete system or not

[diego]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
If you only read the first page, you will know the answer to that question.

riiiight:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
It wasn't about using one art exclusively, the example of Vunak is his belief in his methods, and how effective he believes they are. Whether he learns 100 arts and combines them or finds all he needs in one art, he believes his method is the most effective, otherwise he would continue to add on to it.

He does add - isn't bjj part of his curriculum now? heck, the very nature of jkd includes adding and evolving. On a similar note, here's an article by vunak about thaiboxing and jkd:

http://www.martialarts.com/martial-arts-articles/thai_boxing_jkd.htm

here are a few quotes of interest:


When I think of a Thai boxer, one thing comes to mind immediately: hard core! These are some of the toughest people on Earth.


This goes back to what I was saying earlier about the rep of one vs the rep of another. Opinions are just that though, so you can take that however you want.

For example, anyone can put on a set of boxing gloves, poke shots at a partner, and call that boxing. But if one truly wanted to "hardcore" his punches, he would find a boxing gym and get in with an actual pro...

...It's one thing to roll around on the mat and practice arm locks, triangles, and chokes. However, if you were to go to Brazil and train for the Pan Am Games, then you'd be able to experience the hardcore side of jiu-jitsu and appreciate it at an entirely different level! Many people like to practice various trapping techniques working from reference points only (or training exclusively on the wooden dummy). If these very same people go to a professional boxing gym and recruit a pro boxer, put a motorcycle helmet on him, and then spar full-contact while they try to apply their trapping techniques, this would be an example of a wing chun person applying the muay Thai hardcore mentality...


This is a gem that both uwc and I were talking about earlier:

To a jeet kune do practitioner, the Thai boxing mindset provides a way to inject realism into his or her training. It is not enough to simply practice the same drills day-after-day. When a martial artist knows that he can go all out, take some punishment, and keep going, it does a lot for his survival mentality. Anyone can benefit immensely from watching a good Thai boxing match; however, this mentality is one attribute that is best learned by experience.


Originally posted by SevenStar
That's not what he's saying, Even though you are teaching them based on their experiences, you still must experience things for yourself in order to fully understand them. A coach can spend years telling a fighter what it's like to be in the ring, but until the fighter gets in for himself, he'll never really know. An instructor can tell a fighter what it's like to be in a streetfight involving multiple opponents, but until the student has done it (and hopefully he won't have to) He will never truly know what it's like.

To quote the movie "the perfect weapon":

"I have shown you the dragon, but you have not seen him"