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stubbs
11-28-2004, 03:42 PM
i've started making my own quick n easy protein shakes. taste good and they've got about 35g (or so) of protein in them. i've just been mixing 4 tablespoons of skimmed milk powder, 1-2 tablespoons of chocolate powder and some milk all blended together. ok i know it's got a lot of sugar in it and isn't any good for anyone thats lactose intolerant (!) but will it do as general booster to my protein intake? how much of a difference to the average non-superhuman athlete does whey make compared to this? i know whey absorbs quicker etc but does anyone know by how much?
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mickey
11-28-2004, 05:21 PM
Hi stubbs,

35grams?

That is a lot of protein. You are inviting kidney damage. I was told by a doctor that anything above 19 grams can be harmful to the kidneys. A visual sign that your kidneys are weak is a darkened spot a little below the tearduct of the corner of each eye. Just a little something to look out for.

mickey

Serpent
11-28-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by mickey
Hi stubbs,

35grams?

That is a lot of protein. You are inviting kidney damage. I was told by a doctor that anything above 19 grams can be harmful to the kidneys. A visual sign that your kidneys are weak is a darkened spot a little below the tearduct of the corner of each eye. Just a little something to look out for.

mickey
Say what? Anything over 19g can be harmful? 19g a day? In one go? 19g before breakfast on a Tuesday?

This is nonsense. Most people that are training to build muscle will tak in at least 0.5 gram per pound of bodyweight per day. That's anything up to 100 grams per day and more. A 35g shake isn't that much.

Stubbs - you might want to investigate how much of that protein is actually bioavailable and getting taken up by your body.

Anyway, unless you're a bodybuilder, you should get enough protein from a regular diet. Supplement with chicken, tuna, cottage cheese, etc. if you want a little extra. Vegetarians need to ensure they get complete proteins (bean + corn, etc).

Toby
11-28-2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Serpent
In one go? 19g before breakfast on a Tuesday?I eat at least 60g protein for breakfast. 'Cept today was a Monday, not Tuesday. Wonder how long before my kidneys are shot?

Vash
11-28-2004, 06:51 PM
I try to drop between 40-80 grams of protein in a meal after noon. Before that, between 15-50.

The only things I've come across which relate kidney failure to increased protein intake deal with people who've already suffered kidney failure . . . and the increased protein worsens their condition . . . and it's old people . . . who eat like non-athletes . . .

Doctors don't know a whole hell of a lot anymore.

mickey
11-28-2004, 07:15 PM
Hi guys,

What a reaction.

I just had a phone conversation with my former supervisor this past week. Her husband has been taking a 25 gram protein shake daily. She is really concerned because he blew up LARGE and I am not talking celebrity. Maybe when you are younger the protein load can be handled; I'm looking at the long term ramifications of taking such high levels of protein. Yes, the body passes out what it does not need. I am talking about the problems that can arise from the effort involved in doing so long term.

mickey

Toby
11-28-2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by mickey
... he blew up LARGE ...:confused: Translation?

mickey
11-28-2004, 07:28 PM
I'm back,

Large: major obesity problem. No kidding. I had to point out to her that the shake was doing some damage.

mickey

Toby
11-28-2004, 07:40 PM
That's what I thought you meant. I fail to see how excess protein could cause obesity. It is my understanding that protein is either used, or wasted. It is not stored like triglycerides or glycogen.

IronFist
11-28-2004, 07:48 PM
Elite bodybuilders on steroids consume 400-600g of protein per day. Not that they're a model of health, but still.

Where did your doctor hear the 19g rule? That's like half a chicken breast.

mickey
11-28-2004, 07:48 PM
No, not directly,

But through impaired kidney function. The body's elimination system becomes disrupted.

mickey

Toby
11-28-2004, 07:57 PM
Ahhh, OK. Makes sense, I guess.

Serpent
11-28-2004, 08:58 PM
Wow, loads of armchair diagnosis going on here! ;)

If you take in massive amounts of protein you can trigger a ketogenic state and put a large strain on your liver and kidneys. If you cut out carbs and therefore lose lots of water too, then this is only exacerbated further. This is one reason why the Atkins and other HPLC diets are bad for you.

A high protein intake per se will not badly affect your kidneys, as long as you keep well hydrated, which you should do anyway.

Unusually high protein intake like Ironfist mentions is bad for metabolic balance, but bodybuilders are about the unhealthiest sports people out there.

There is no way that a person can only consume 19g of protein in a day - that's ridiculous. 0.5 to 1.0 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight is no problem and easily used up by people training regularly. A tuna sandwich at lunch and a chicken breast and vegies for dinner would come close to 100g protein and that's hardly a high protein diet.

As for the dude that "blew up LARGE", you have to know more. He had a 25g protein shake a day, plus what else? No way was he only living on one protein shake a day. If he added that to his normal diet and didn't do any extra exercise, already he'd start to gain weight. A lot of excess protein is passed, but some is stored. You need all the facts, mickey.

mickey
11-28-2004, 10:24 PM
Hi,

I never said 19 grams a day. I was refering to 19 grams at a time. Yes, the guy that blew up did not work out. And that was not his only meal. When you put overloads on your body continually, something is going to give.

mickey

Serpent
11-28-2004, 10:54 PM
Absolutely.

And 19g in one go is not bad. A good steak has way more than that!

IronFist
11-28-2004, 11:21 PM
How long is "at a time?" Every 5 minutes? :D

A can of tuna + a chicken breast is like 50 or 60 grams or protein, not 100.

stubbs
11-29-2004, 08:14 AM
i can't remember where i got this from, but is it true you can only consume about 30g of protein at a time? i guess 'at a time' depends how quickly it can get digested. so maybe you could absorb more protein through shakes in a shorter period than you could with a steak...that's just a guess though. how quickly could i absorb the goodies from my shake recipe or any other form of protein?
________
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IronFist
11-29-2004, 09:23 AM
^ I've heard that too. I heard it was like 30g every 3 hours or something, but that would make you cap out at 240g per day so I dunno.

Oso
11-29-2004, 10:13 AM
LOL, Mickey, I got lambasted when I said I'd read that more than 20grams at a time was wasted because you couldn't uptake more than that...


ok, just tried to google and didn't really get anything one way or the other...

anyone got links that specifically state what optimum or maximum protein uptake is?

Samurai Jack
11-29-2004, 10:38 AM
You're gonna die! You're ALL gonna DIIIIIEEEE!!! (runs screaming from building with hands over head)

mickey
11-29-2004, 03:55 PM
Greetings,


I think I made a mistake here and I am willing to admit it. I think the measurement for the amount of protein was in ounces and not grams. And I think that was per day.

Please forgive my long term memory. I apologize for the confusion.

mickey

PS: I really enjoyed the discussion. It didn't get nasty. Best regards to you all.

PPS: Just found this:

http://www.planetxterra.com/beat/aug02_ak.html

IronFist
11-29-2004, 04:16 PM
1 ounce = 28.3495231 grams

mickey
11-29-2004, 05:37 PM
Yeah Ironfist,

I pulled my head out of the ground and I saw your entry.

I feel like a d o r k.

mickey

rubthebuddha
11-29-2004, 05:50 PM
mickey -- we forgive you. ironfist is well known for his problems with measurement conversions to/from metric, so we're used to such mistakes. ;)

Oso
11-29-2004, 06:43 PM
c'mon, to be fair there must have been some recommendation at one time that gave a maximum individual serving intake rate of 20grams.

Maybe mickey's doctor did say it but was just not up to date.
Besides, 20 grams per meal for a sedentary adult would equal the USRDA of 60 grams a day for an adult male. Maybe it was an extrapolation of that given 3 meals a day. That is also equal to what mickey's link give for a sedentary male.

I can't remember where I saw it stated but I wanna say it was Bill Pearls book 'Getting Strong' circa 1994 edition. I know his book is considered somewhat outdated now.



1 ounce = 28.3495231 grams

that must be a weight equivilant and not a grams of protein per ounce statement.


:tooma:

;) :D

Toby
11-29-2004, 07:05 PM
Oso, yeah, that's a conversion factor. As to the protein, IIRC it's closer to 50g for your average (200lb-ish) male that should be your upper limit at one time. Obviously it depends on your individual parameters. In my protein shakes I have 1/2 whey, 1/2 calcium caseinate + a ****load of milk. Whey is absorbed quickly, so that goes straight in. CC is like a slow release fertilizer. IIRC it takes up to 8 hours to be digested - it forms a curd in your stomach - so you're gunna be able to absorb more of it.

Oso
11-29-2004, 07:13 PM
IME, I feel like crap if I eat much more than 40g at a time.

right now i'm hitting:

7am 30ish at breakfast

9am 12g

10am 12g

11am 12g

12pm 12 g

1pm 12g

2pm 12g

sometime between 4 and 5 I get another 30ish (pre class)

sometime between 8 and 10 I get 30-50. (dinner)

so, like 160-180 or so and i'm not lifting heavy or anything and I've just been back in this schedule for the last 5 weeks or so.

that's just Mon-Fri too, I don't follow as rigid a schedule over the weekend.

IronFist
11-29-2004, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by rubthebuddha
ironfist is well known for his problems with measurement conversions to/from metric, so we're used to such mistakes. ;)

Dude, whatever. I totally googled that conversion up there. I copied and pasted the entire text from the results page down to the very last digit.