Wing Chun vs. The World

[Scott]

I carry tiny bottles of spray-on oven cleaner, so it doesn't matter.

-Scott

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis

[Scott]

There was a purpose to the post, so I guess I'll write it as a reply. My Kung Fu teacher carries pepper spray.

Because he's mature and even though he's being practicing CMA for 22 years, he knows that a fight can swing either way. Pepper spray allows him to disarm armed attackers or give him an enormous advantage in a fight, especially since he's also a very skilled martial artist.

I carry oven cleaner because its legal in more places and equally painful if shot into the eyes (actually more likely to cause permenant eye damage, but I can't buy pepper spray since I'm not 18.)

The point is, has anyone considered sharpening the sword rather than practicing the thrust?

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis

[kungfu cowboy]

I used to carry around an iron in my bookbag in middle school.

[lotus kick]

:D protection weapons, don't leave home with out it. :D

[Sharky]

it's illegal here, i nearly had my hands on some, but my "dealer" (lol) ran out :(

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[Watchman]

If you're going to carry pepper spray (or oven cleaner) make sure you learn what it's capabilities and non-capabilities are before you ever run into a situation where you feel you may need to use it.

Since pepper spray falls into the "non-lethal" stratum of weapons, it's useage is as a pain compliance tool.

DO NOT just spray it in a guy's eyes and assume that will stop his intent. Make sure you hold the cannister at arm's length, depress the nozzle, and move your hand in a rapid figure eight pattern as you spray - and use evasion footwork to keep yourself out of reach. That way you get better coverage when your perp is trying to duck and cover, or is in full assault mode.

Remember, there are some mutants walking around that pepper spray has minimal effects on. Pain compliance devices only work on individuals who respond to pain.

As a case in point, I participated in a training session with some sheriff's deputies and law enforcement trainers a number of years ago who were recertifying in pepper spray (to certify as a LEO you have to get sprayed with the stuff yourself so you know how it feels and what it's effects are).

In order to make the whole ordeal more interesting, we decided to make an attack drill out of the process. I paced away from one guy about ten feet, while he stood with his arms at his sides with a LEO issue belt cannister of 18% spray (the good stuff).

The object of the drill was for me to close as fast as I could to entangle the deputy, take him down, and try to disarm him if I could. His goal was to incapacitate me with the spray and "effect an arrest".

At the signal I launched forward. The guy sidestepped, brought up the cannister, and started spraying.

I took a full shot right across the brow as I closed. Struck blind, I was still able to entangle his arms, sweep him, and put him on his back with me on top. We struggled on the ground and he kept spraying, only he was getting the stuff on himself as well.

I was able to smother his arms, wrapped up his neck, and choked him nearly unconscious (he yelled stop). When I let go of him the pain finally started to set in after I stood up and I ran over to a wheelbarrow full of water they had on station and kept my head buried in it for half an hour until the burning started to subside.

One of the other guys brought the cannister over to show me it was completely empty, with most of it on my person.

Moral of the story is, weapons of any kind aren't hand-held miracles.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparations against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[rogue]

I learned the opposite Watchman. I was taught to hold the spray close to the body while holding my other arm toward the attacker to keep some distance and to keep the spray from being batted away.

With the spray held that way, what do you guys do if there's no room for evasive footwork?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[Watchman]

Do exactly the same thing you described. :D

If they close, tuck the cannister back into your chest and hold him back with your other hand to keep some maneuvering room.

The guys running the drills said if you don't have room for evasive footwork "just try to get more of it on him than on you." :rolleyes:

The guy I faced off with in my above story did that exact thing. I spent some time trying to peel the cannister out of his hand while we were on the ground, but he kept batting my arms with his free hand. That's when I got p!ssed off, dropped my body weight on him to smother the cannister and started choking away.

[rogue]

I just looked at the expiration date on my spray and it expired over a year ago! Obviously I need a new can, what's the word on the good stuff and where can I get it?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[Watchman]

The best way to get the potent stuff is to get one of your LEO buddies to buy a cannister for you.

The next best way is to go to a LEO outfitters and purchase one there.

Barring that, you can always go to your local pawn shop/gun store and ask the man behind the counter if he's got the law enforcement grade stuff.

P.S. Don't throw your old cannister away. Expired pepper spray goes well with fajitas and black beans. :D

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Just figured I would throw this in FWIW.

Pepper Spray can be considered a deadly weapon. As such you would need the same level of justification in using it as you would in using a gun, in some cases. Also, if you have never had the chance to experience Pepper Spray firsthand then have someone give you a shot. I am confident this will open :D your eyes to some of the possible ramifications.

As a Trooper I had to undergo being hit with Pepper Spray during training. I can tell you it was a memorable experieince. One of the reasons were for us to gain a full understadning of just how effective this can be as a weapon. In PA if a person is threatening a Police Officer with Pepper Spray he can, in some cricumstances, respond with deadly force. The reasoning behind this is that the spray can totally incapacitate someone making them almost helpless. Would not want a Police Officer to fall into this situation. However, like everything else whatever your reaction will depend on the specific crcumstances and how well you can articulate your reasoning for your actions. You must be in fear of serious bodily injury or death. You can't just use it on someone because they ****ed you off. :rolleyes:

One last thing, be carefull of carrying something because it's "legal". Many localities have provissions for the use of an item not just its intended purpose. For example, the City of Philadelphia and State of Pennsylvania have two sections entitled PIC and POW.

PIC=Possession of Instrument of a Crime:{Pennsylvania Consolodated Statuates, Title 18, Chapter 9 Subsection 907}: What this basically means is that if I take, say a screwdriver, and use it in the commission of a crime I can be charged with PIC due to the way it was used. Now a screwdriver is "legal" but only for its intended purpose. It is not "legal" to carry a screwdriver in order to boost car radios etc.

POW=Possesion of Offensive Weapon:{Pennsylvania Consolodated Statuates, Title 18, Chapter 9 Subsection 908}: Let's use the screwdriver again. I take it and either file the point a bit or leave it the way it is normally. I get into a fight with someone and use it to stab them. Now I used it as a weapon and not for its intended purpose. Now I can be charged with carrying and possessing a weapon.

Both of the above are very basic examples and again circumstances and your articluation of the facts will play a big role in the outcome. However, I would imagine that it would be difficult to justify carrying around a can of oven cleaner and using it to spray someone, possibly in the eyes causing serious injury. Should you ever have to use it, or anything else you carry, be prepared to answer questions like why you had it in the first place. If your answer is for self protection you could have a problem. It could show a predermination to use the item. Remember, in all except for a few instances, our duty is to retreat from a threat not meet it.

I am not a lawyer and am not offering legal advice. What I am trying to do is point out that there are always consequences which you must be prepared for. Those consequences can be legal or they can be emotional. Consider if you sprayed someone in the eyes with over cleaner and blinded them. Even if you got off legally you would still have to live with the result of your actions. Consider if the situation warrants such a response before acting.

BTW; Scott I am not picking on you just thought the oven cleaner would be a good example.

Peace,

Dave

[BeiKongHui]

The Government wants to keep it quiet but getting pepper sprayed may cause long term damage to your eyes. Studies have shown that a one time encounter can destroy the beneficial bacteria under your eyelids and on the eye itself permanently and some believe it will result in eye disease, cataracts, etc. upon reaching old age. Take it for what it's worth, it could be total BS but I dodn't want to find out the hard way.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Scott]

Some of you are misjudging the intention of my post. The Pepper Spray is not an end to the fight, only an aid alongside Wing Chun. Use Pepper Spray, then kick ass. Defend with Wing Chun while spraying. Get the opponent in a Chin Na hold, then spray him directly in the face while he has no cover.

Most people use pepper spray defensively, but a trained fighter could use it offensively. As a martial artist instead of a frightened (untrained) woman, the point is to end the fight, not spray and run.

-Scott

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis