Kettlebells vs Stone Locks

[Oso]

I want to try the kettlebell training next but would like to keep the school looking 'chinese' just for aesthetics sake (call me silly).

I've looked and haven't found any specific websites w/ 'stone lock' exercises. I don't really see why the Kettlebell stuff couldn't be used w/ a traditional stone lock.

Agree? Disagree?

[Ford Prefect]

Agree. Iron is just heavier than stone.

[Oso]

lol, well I don't have to worry about maxing out on a stone lock anytime soon.

I think I saw some cool stone locks at atomicathlete.com

just trying to mix the old w/ the new.

[IronFist]

KBs are probably smoother, ie. less hand/forearm irritation.

Plus, they're round so you can easier do things like palm presses or whatever they're called.

And the curved handle lets you do exercises that require holding the side of the handle, as opposed to the stone locks I've seen where you can only grab them from the top.

That's why I'd get KBs over stone locks.

[Oso]

IF, good points that I'd thought of as well.

There is supposedly some traditional exercises from my shrye but I'm so busy trying to get the core info I haven't been able to even think about asking for them.

off hand I'd say that there may be a conditioning aspect to flipping the stone locks around to smack your forearms (and knowing Shrye Shi, I'd bet on it) but normally, yes I'd say they would be an irritant.

the locks at atomicathlete look nice, well polished and the angle on the lock itself would let it smack into your forearm flat instead of on edge.

[Andy62]

Kettlebells are more ballistic. That extended handle gives them a recoil effect that you won't get with the stonelocks. To me stonelocks are really just stone dumbells with as slight offcenter gravity feature.

[IronFist]

KB's can condition your forearms from the impact as well, I hear.

[Oso]

i'm sure...anything that heavy will do the trick.

as I'm said, just wanting to keep the guan looking a little traditional...still need to find out more about the ins and outs of the stone locks as a TCMA method of weight training...then again, there might be nothing to it...Stone Locks = Field Expediant Dumbells as Andy pointed out.

[norther practitioner]

That gravitational feature is good for forearm strength and conditioning, both things I'd think are important for Oso's students when they try to hit that bear...

[Chief Fox]

So how would you train with those stone locks? Would you use them in the same fashion as a kettlebell or is there a specific type of training that goes along with them? Forms? Some kind of balistic movements? Just curious because those things would be easy to make out of a piece of pipe and some concrete mix.

[Oso]

Originally posted by Chief Fox
So how would you train with those stone locks? Would you use them in the same fashion as a kettlebell or is there a specific type of training that goes along with them? Forms? Some kind of balistic movements? Just curious because those things would be easy to make out of a piece of pipe and some concrete mix.

I don't know yet. My shrye has them in his school but I have yet to see him train with them. Neither of my other teachers had them.

One thing I have done in my school is have everyone bring a pair of bricks in and we do forms while holding them...only about 2 lbs each but if you do 6-12 forms in a row with them w/o a break it's a reasonable workout.

[yu shan]

Oso

There are plenty of exercises using these within our system. Apparently pretty darn important?! I really have an interest in the stone locks and will introduce to my people in 05. Atomic is good folks, they actually talk to you about their products. These locks are not cheap, so be careful where you practise, I have seen them break!

[IronFist]

Someone post a link to the stone locks because I want to see them again.

[Toby]

:mad: Or you could just look around a bit yourself (http://www.atomicathletic.com/).

[IronFist]

^ Thanks.

Oso, I really want to lecture you for this statement:


I want to try the kettlebell training next but would like to keep the school looking 'chinese' just for aesthetics sake (call me silly).

But I won't unless you tell me I can. You know what I'll say, anyway, so just pretend I said it.

edit - orrrrrrrrrr, you could get some of each (I don't know how many you were planning on getting anyway tho).

[Oso]

IF, lecture away, I had my rebuttal ready when I wrote it.

:D

well, both would be cool but as you pointed out, costly.

I started drawing plans for some forms last night to make my own.

[IronFist]

It will have to wait. I'm at work.

Well, here's the gist of it.

Assuming KBs are more functional than stone locks, which I think I explained why I believe they are in a previous post:

It's dumb to get a less functional tool just to maintain "tradition." Traditional karate punches with one hand while the other hand is on the hip. Are you going to keep doing that because it's "tradition?" Or are you going to keep your other hand up so you don't get smacked in the face while you punch.

Exception: if your students base their decision to go to your school (read: your income) on how traditional it is.

Ok I gotta go.

[Andy62]

You know the basis for all of the interest in stone locks is Matt Furey's latest course. One thing you have to say about Furey is that he is a natural promoter and he sure can hit the "hot button."

[norther practitioner]

Tradition or not, they are still a good workout devise, with there own merits....

get whatever you want bro.. it's YOUR school.

[Oso]

IF, remember I said that I wanted to explore using stone locks with kb exercises.

From what I've seen, I think I can build some concrete locks w/ a high psi mix so they don't chip easily. then seal them well. I think I can also modify the design to increase the dynamic swing that is coming from the longer handle of the kb's. but all that is simply based on what I've read here from everyone's comments.

I hear your point. However, at this point, I'm not really training anyone for strength. If I have some locks around the school and once I learn exactly how to use them, then my students can work out with them during open floor times.

Flipping it back at you: have you ever trained w/ stone locks?

btw, i'm taking this as a good natured debate...

Andy62: actually, my interest stems from seeing them at my shrye's school.


NP: going to. especially since I think I can build several sets in graduated sizes for the cost of one set of commercial ones. thanks.

[Andy62]

I have not used stone locks,but I have trained with kettlebells. The modifications that you suggest would probably give you a greater training effect.

[IronFist]

Look at it like this: If there were some kind of traditional barbell where you could only do bench press with it, or a different barbell where you could bench, squat, deadlift, etc., which one would you buy?

But hey, regardless of which one you get, be sure to post reviews and pics :D

[Oso]

So, your argument is that stone locks are less functional than KB's.

I get that point.

What do you base this on?

You did not answer about whether you have used locks before.


;)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Oso
So, your argument is that stone locks are less functional than KB's.

I get that point.

What do you base this on?

Here's a list of things you can do with a KB that you can't do with a stone lock:

Grab the sides of the handle (as opposed to just the top) for doing things like weighted pistols, etc.
Take advantage of the round shape for things like bottom up presses
Not have to worry about sharp corners smashing into your forearms during snatches or whatever.
Save money


Here's a list of things you can do with a stone lock that you can't do with a KB:

Look traditional


Just my opinion, tho. I may be missing some things. And like I said before, if your students are all going to quit if you don't get traditional stuff, then get the locks (or get new students), but yeah, it's up to you, I'm just giving you my opinion.



You did not answer about whether you have used locks before.
;)

Sorry, I didn't know I was asked that. No, I've never used stone locks before.

[Oso]

Originally posted by IronFist
Here's a list of things you can do with a KB that you can't do with a stone lock:

Grab the sides of the handle (as opposed to just the top) for doing things like weighted pistols, etc.

ok, but I don't see that the stone locks are too big to just grab the sides of.

Take advantage of the round shape for things like bottom up presses

i don't see that a flat bottom would mean that you couldn't do this.

Not have to worry about sharp corners smashing into your forearms during snatches or whatever.

granted. if that was too much of a problem the edges could be sanded/ground down a bit so they wouldn't cut

Save money

i'd have to check again but at least on the atomicathlete site they are similarly priced


Here's a list of things you can do with a stone lock that you can't do with a KB:

Look traditional

LOL, what have you got against 'looking traditional'?

Right off, i'd have to say that though there may be some minimal limitations to the stone locks it wouldn't be enough to offset the benefit I see of a TCMA school maintaining that image.


Just my opinion, tho. I may be missing some things. And like I said before, if your students are all going to quit if you don't get traditional stuff, then get the locks (or get new students), but yeah, it's up to you, I'm just giving you my opinion.



Sorry, I didn't know I was asked that. No, I've never used stone locks before.

ok, well, as you said above, just your opinion. But how can you hold such a strong opinion w/o fact based comparison?

as I said in my second post, my goal is to try and combine the old and the new. I think it can be done to good effect. Also, keep in mind that most students in any ma school are only there as a hobby. I don't really think it's going to matter that the stone locks are only 95% as optimal as a KB.

Thanks for your input.

[fa_jing]

I think they would be about 25% as effective. JMO, but it seems that snatches, rack jerks, and all overhead work is going to be tremendously more difficult and less productive.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Oso
ok, well, as you said above, just your opinion. But how can you hold such a strong opinion w/o fact based comparison?


I've never done squats on a Smith machine but I still know they suck :D I see your point, tho.

btw, my comparison was fact based.

[Oso]

fa-jing: simply because of the design differences?


IF, if not from your own experience then where did you draw the facts?

video? web article?

my goal is to try and make the best decision up front. even if I make them cheap there is still my time to consider and, well energy over time and all that.

if the best thing to do is save up for the KB's then I'll do that.

I'm just not convinced there is a, 75% difference per fa-jing, huge difference.

just had one thought though...one of the things I lack in my school is at least a couple of bigger guys that want to fight.

I gots no one to play with.

in terms of projecting an image, having a couple of toys laying around that are connected to 'traditional' strong man workouts may attract some of those types of guys.

[IronFist]

KBs are cheaper if you buy them from everythingtrackandfield.

[Oso]

yep, saw that on your other post but haven't had time to follow up.


and, really, for now, I have 5, 10, 25 and 30 pound iron dumbells in the school that are being used.

[IronFist]

Here, these look kind of like a combination of the two. The handles don't look too round, tho.

Kettlebells (http://www.newyorkbarbells.tv/im-0350.html).

[Oso]

interesting, they call them kettlebells but then there's the bit about 'used by chinese masters'

good prices too.


thanks.


talked to one of my students yesterday who used to make granite kitchen countertops. we're going to go talk to his old boss about making some locks.

[TAO YIN]

Oso,

Hello. I know this goes without saying, but take care not to fark up your shoulders or elbows when using these training devices for forms and such. In other words, punch with care.

Iron rings are good too. If you don't have them, and don't want to spend so much money to buy them, you can always make them. All a persons got to do is get a pair of truck shocks from a salvage yard, take them to a foundry, have them cut, welded, sanded, and spray painted or tapped.

Tao

[Oso]

TY, indeed. With three torn tendons in my right shoulder, I'm being super careful right now till the doc tells me whether he's going to operate or not.

did iron rings in hung gar but that was 15 years ago. good stuff and a nice way to initiate forearm conditioning w/o banging.

crap...more toys to get.

thanks

[norther practitioner]

As far as what stone locks do compared to KB.. I just want to throw in there the different dinamic you get from locks when doing things like curls.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist
KBs are cheaper if you buy them from everythingtrackandfield. What's the shipping costs?

[fa_jing]

OK, I just looked at the stone locks in the link. I think it is clear that you can't do a decent shoulder press with one. There is no way to hold it in the rack either. The design is too bulky for a snatch. The only advantage over a kettlebell is to take a light weight and hold it vertically with the box sticking out, like in the picture at atomic athletic. This might be good for some punching drills, although it seems to me that you would want to strengthen the wrist in other directions as well. You couldn't do this too well with a kettlebell since the handle is curved.

Either one, looks like you could use to do swing-type exercises in conjuction with stances and stepping, which is one of the primary uses of the stone lock AFAIK.

One of the main advantages of the kettlebell as a training tool over other types of weights is the ability to hold one or two in the rack. This lets you hold heavier weights longer and target the legs. See www.fullkontactkettlebells.com for some examples.

[Oso]

thanks for the input, nice link.

ok, so it seems that KB's are more versatile then locks.

also, at heavier weights, locks would be hyuge.

[fa_jing]

Depends on the stone lock exercises in question then. If you want light weights where you can hold the bar in a vertical fist due to the specific nature of the movements, then stone locks would be the way to go. For pretty much anything else, you would want a kettlebell. There are also good resources on kettlebell usage that are easily accessed, while the knowledge of the stone lock seems hard to come by.

[Oso]

There are also good resources on kettlebell usage that are easily accessed, while the knowledge of the stone lock seems hard to come by.

good point, and the biggest issu w/ making an informed decision.

I know Pong Lai (Master Shr) has them but I'll almost always make the call to learn more about the system vs. stone lock exercises given the limited access.

[wiz cool c]

Anyone here know where to buy a Shi Suo in the US?10720

[MightyB]

Atomic Athletic - I remember seeing their ads in a lot of magazines back in the day, maybe even Kung Fu Magazine, but I've never purchased anything from them myself so I don't know about their quality or customer service.

http://atomicathletic.com/store/index.php/lifting-stones/stone-padlocks.html

[wiz cool c]

Cool MightyB thank you.

[Mantis9700]

I bought one from Atomic that is roughly 25 lbs. I probably bought it around 8 years ago. Great quality. Very solid. No problems at all.

[wiz cool c]

They look good, kind of expensive though. I got mine at a friends home. He said he mailed me the thing so should have it this week. Dude is flaky though. I miss the training badly. So this is back up if I dont get it.

[GeneChing]

I've only heard good things about doing business with them. Say 'hi' to Roger from me.