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PaulH
11-30-2004, 02:50 PM
Could someone explain more specifically what this term mean from their WC training method? I'm not sure I know what people are referring to. Thanks!

Theorb
11-30-2004, 02:59 PM
how WC internal mechanic work depend: Do you got gravity feed, presurise, or flushmaster style WC mechanism? Do you got siphon-jet or wash-down trapping?

anerlich
11-30-2004, 04:10 PM
Someone would have to define "internal" and its context first.

I'd say it's mostly to do with spinal alignment, breathing and appropriate "sealing of the breath" for maximum power and minimum injury risk during exertion, in appropriate concert with movement.

No doubt more esoteric answers will be promoted by some.

Theorb, does the washdown go the other direction in the Northern Hemisphere due to Coriolis forces? :D

Vajramusti
11-30-2004, 05:40 PM
What are WC Internal Mechanics?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul-

Internal/external--so many varying perceptions and definitions-as is likely to happen with isolated labels. I take your question at face value that you are asking for various POVs.
So--- a POV- FWIW:

1. "mechanics" is usually more of an "external" term dealing with
structural relationships- alignments, rooting etc. "Principles' are better pointers than "mechanics" in understanding the internal aspects of wing chun.

2. Wing chun is a balanced system- a blending of external and internal. Good MAs will usually have this balance though the details and sequences of learning will vary.

3. In wing chun the development of each external stage of development should be accompanied with corresponding and coordinated internal development. One can know the mechanics of the slt and still do it very incompletely and wrongly.

4. Some operational meanings of internal include the following
important "qualitative" principles ( each principle has applications in each stage of mechanics and development)
a. emptiness
b. stillness
c. sinking
d. softness

Repeat:
Internal and external have to be blended at each stage of development. Videos generally cant show what is really going on
in development and corrections- directions are necessary IMO..

RedJunkRebel
11-30-2004, 06:00 PM
From my experience, the term "internal mechanics" is used when referring to how to get the most from your training in terms of issuing force and dissolving it from an opponent... very similar to what anerlich was getting at.

Elaborating a little... it often deals with deep muscle relaxation in order to get rid of tension which can cause rigidity, using "whole-body movements" to generate momentum in sort of a wave of force (rather than just one segment of your body to perform a movement), body alignment/posture or structure as well as deep & timely breathing.

Hope this helps.

t_niehoff
12-01-2004, 04:23 AM
IMO descriptive terms like "internal" and "external" are pointless, and serve mainly as a distraction. Better terms to be concerned with are "productive" and "nonproductive".

jonp
12-01-2004, 10:14 AM
if you want to develop something that may be "productive" or "useful" generally you have to give that "thing" a name...

repeating the same mantra over an over again can be "productive" but it can also be "nonproductive"

peace

t_niehoff
12-01-2004, 12:48 PM
Lots of people use the term "internal" -- but what we don't see is anyone who uses that term really getting any significant results. You can give imaginary things names if you want to but that won't help your punch. ;)

old jong
12-01-2004, 01:17 PM
It comes from SLT,depending on how it is practiced*(1). But many will simply prefer to do Wing Chun as an external style and skip away this aspect.

*(1) It takes times also!

saifa5k
12-01-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by t_niehoff
Lots of people use the term "internal" -- but what we don't see is anyone who uses that term really getting any significant results. You can give imaginary things names if you want to but that won't help your punch. ;)

Because you dont understand something doesnt mean that it doesnt exist. On the other hand if you are saying the words have been exploited then I agree.
Dave

t_niehoff
12-01-2004, 06:52 PM
Because you dont understand something doesnt mean that it doesnt exist. On the other hand if you are saying the words have been exploited then I agree.

**It's not a matter of me "understanding" or not -- it has to do with evidence. The internal/external distinction just gets in the way.

jonp
12-02-2004, 06:41 AM
You can give imaginary things names if you want to but that won't help your punch.

heheh - imaginary things? i guess it all depends on your definition of internal...which is a discussion that can go round and round and round. time better spend training SNT ;)

i agree that combat results are the benchmark for 'good' WCK, its what its designed for after all, but if people can improve their attributes by thinking and training in a certain way then thats good too surely?

as long as they learn to apply the attributes to practical combat.

later

Jim Roselando
12-02-2004, 07:45 AM
Hey Terence and everyone!


Lots of people use the term "internal" -- but what we don't see is anyone who uses that term really getting any significant results. You can give imaginary things names if you want to but that won't help your punch.


I have to full out disagree with this. There is a significant difference in results that can be felt right away with the proper "internal" training. I really do not like the term Internal or External as I prefer Soft Jing or Hard Jing. Its actually best if you have years and years of Kung Fu under your belt that way you can feel your body go thru the changes. Its an amazing feeling and it most certainly will help your tools.


Leung Jan told Wong Wah Sam:

Lik Yiu Noi Gong: Your power must be internal!


I have shared the training I was taught with a number of people who have many years of training under their belt and anyone who trained regularly and properly will acknowledge the significant changes they will feel.


Leung Jan also told Wong Wah Sam:

Siu Lin & Dai Lin! Practice it often it will change you!


This was more about what will go on inside your body such as the tendons and sinews and joints.

I can also say that there is a noticeable difference on the recieving end of an internal engine blow and your body becomes very very healthy as a side product. I have not had a cold in a few years. A helathy body is a strong body for fighting.

So, call it BS labelling or call it what you every you feel like but the fact is our ancestors felt it was and important part of their WCK and its nothing mystical or anything weird. Just good old fashioned WCK.


Gotta run,

PaulH
12-02-2004, 01:24 PM
Thanks, folks! I enjoy reading your excellent views. Terence, what is Robert's view on Internal mechanics? For those coming to the seminar, this info may be quite helpful.

t_niehoff
12-02-2004, 03:29 PM
Paul,

Robert has his own perspective. He's a traditional chinese medicine physician so he tends to look at the world, including the traditional martial arts such as WCK, from that perspective. I'm not a TCM physician and don't look at the world in that way. This is what folks like Jim, citing Leung Jan, don't seem to get -- that a perspective isn't true and correct, it's just a way of looking at things. What matters is if that perspective is helpful or productive for *you* in getting results. IMO how our WCK ancestors from another culture, in another era, and with less knowledge looked at the world isn't particularly useful to most of us.

Moreover, even if there is something (a certain mechanics, for instance) behind that term, we don't need the term to get the thing. For example, Tim Cartmell (shenwu.com) trained xingyi, TJQ, and Bagua (the three 'original' internal arts) in China for over a decade. During that time, he fought and won full-contact tourneys in Asia. He knows the internal arts. He's also a BJJ blackbelt. And now he hosts a really great amatuer NHB event. He classifies BJJ as an "internal art." The Gracies have probably never heard the term, don't know what the term means, and could care less -- that term in no way helps them either learn BJJ or develop great skill in BJJ. They too don't look at the world like the ancient chinese.

So I don't think that for most of us, thinking along the TCM lines is particularly helpful in learning or in developing skill. In fact, my experience is just the opposite -- that these sorts of things just get in the way. Just look at all the internal guys and how little genuine fighting skill they have. But they're all very proudly tell you that they are internal martial artists!

PaulH
12-02-2004, 04:14 PM
Tim Cartmell is a great guy! I like the way he moves his body - very smooth and natural. Don't you think, Terence, that this is due to his proper application of "internal mechanics"? Is internal arts really that bad for combat today?

t_niehoff
12-02-2004, 04:45 PM
You miss the whole point of my posts: there is no internal and external, and it doesn't help to think that way. There is just plain body mechanics, and to achieve our objective, whatever it is, we need to use the proper body mechanics. This is true in any physical activity (funny how there is only "internal power" in certain mysterious asian fighting arts -- if it is so effective, why don't we see these internal powers in other physical activities?). For example, there is no internal hip throw and external hip throw -- it's rather the case of it takes a certain mechanics to pull off a hip throw with maximum leverage. And we can judge how good our mechanics are by how well we do that. Be concerned with the results and not silly labels.

BTW, why do you find it helpful to resort to ancient chinese cosmology to develop physical skill?

PaulH
12-02-2004, 05:31 PM
I think the philosophy will influence on the manners of how people fight and develop their skills. The Chinese concept of yin/yang is very important in WC skill development.

Jim Roselando
12-02-2004, 05:37 PM
Hey Terence,


Robert has his own perspective. He's a traditional chinese medicine physician so he tends to look at the world, including the traditional martial arts such as WCK, from that perspective. I'm not a TCM physician and don't look at the world in that way. This is what folks like Jim, citing Leung Jan, don't seem to get -- that a perspective isn't true and correct, it's just a way of looking at things. What matters is if that perspective is helpful or productive for *you* in getting results. IMO how our WCK ancestors from another culture, in another era, and with less knowledge looked at the world isn't particularly useful to most of us.

Terence, I am sorry but I think I get it and know what results it gives as I can feel it and anyone I have shown can feel it in a real short period of time. The human body has not changes much in the last few hundred years. By the time most Kung Fu and martial art was developed or formulated they fully understood how to maximize the bodies power/health. Which happen to work hand in hand and are not seperate in chinese martial art. Its not rocket science after all. What I find really odd is that for you to comment on if something is useful or not if they have not spent the time to cultivate the things they discuss. Or! Maybe you did but just did not get the results so it may go back to how you were shown. I am thinking out loud here as I cannot understand how someone could not feel the results if they went thru the simple training it takes to develop this stuff as part of your art. Besides. ALL Kung Fu was based around knowledge of the inside and outside inlcuding WCK. Going thru the tendon/sinew changes is EASY! Opening and closing the joints is EASY. Yup! EASY Sorry to not make it sounds very complicated but it is and the results are easily noticed and felt. So, making comments about people being from a differrent time in the world having useless info. for us modern folk is far from accurate. Its simple training that is right inside your forms. Then! You train it to be useful like anything. If you decide not to do or do not understand how to develop it thats fine but claiming something is useless without giving it a fair shot is not right. Leung Jan was telling his people something that he felt was important for them to know about WCK. Just that simple.

Moreover, even if there is something (a certain mechanics, for instance) behind that term, we don't need the term to get the thing. For example, Tim Cartmell (shenwu.com) trained xingyi, TJQ, and Bagua (the three 'original' internal arts) in China for over a decade. During that time, he fought and won full-contact tourneys in Asia. He knows the internal arts. He's also a BJJ blackbelt. And now he hosts a really great amatuer NHB event. He classifies BJJ as an "internal art." The Gracies have probably never heard the term, don't know what the term means, and could care less -- that term in no way helps them either learn BJJ or develop great skill in BJJ. They too don't look at the world like the ancient chinese.

Maybe he uses that term because its something he is used to saying and in all honesty any art that utilizes a specific structure or trains a structural alignment as part of their art is Internal. Internal mechanics! Although, thats just one part of it. Thats why I dont like to classify them as internal or external but rather soft/hard or dead as you can have alignment but lack the inside cultivation that goes along with it. Egg shell with no yoke. But! You can fight with anything if you train hard enough. it all comes down to the individual and how he was taught/trains!

So I don't think that for most of us, thinking along the TCM lines is particularly helpful in learning or in developing skill. In fact, my experience is just the opposite -- that these sorts of things just get in the way. Just look at all the internal guys and how little genuine fighting skill they have. But they're all very proudly tell you that they are internal martial artists!

Perhaps you should meet some authentic Mantis, Dragon, White Crane, Whitebrow fighters that have cultivated a high degree of skill and test it out. These thing do not get in the way unless they are taught in a stupid mystical way. Its just simple stuff that goes along with the full package of any art. ITS RIGHT IN YOUR FORMS! Your not doing anything extra or special. Most martial art is nothing more than the shell with no yoke and its not about being a TCM Doctor but simple body cultivation IMO. The problem is most dont pass on the inside info. or some just dont care about it.

Now! Lets use your typical swimming comment. How much genuine fighting skill is out there in any art with the bulk of people? You acknowledge over and over that there is not much. So, its up to the individual and if they are taught it in a simple way they will think of it in a simple way (keep in mind that ITS RIGHT IN YOUR FORMS) and get out and use it. If they are taught that it will make you float or dance on clouds then they will get pounded. Basics are basics and all Kung Fu has this stuff. Some prefer not to practice and some do. All the best of the best of any art or chinese system had this stuff. It makes a difference IMO. Can you develop good skill without it? Sure but if you tain hard with it you will feel the difference.

structure, mechanics, tendons/sinews, opening/closing of the joints/torso, breathing, spine discharge, rise/sink etc. etc..

Lots of stuff that goes along with any art. Nothing majical!

We can agree to disagree fully on this topic!

But thats not unusual for us! hehehe

Off to NY for the weekend!

Take care guys and Gotta Run!


Regards,

Vajramusti
12-02-2004, 06:56 PM
Hi Jim- agree with you. WCK came out of the context of a Chinese approach to coordinating body, mind and energy.

It didnt come out of a western bio mechanics course. The internal and external are integrated in good gung fu.
Internal- is part of nature too and not limited to Asia. Simply- different paradigms have focussed on different aspects of nature.
And with increased global interactions since WW2- we are still sorting a lot of comparative things out.

But i dont debate these things much and am not on a missionary journey.

If folks are satisfied with standard mechanics- I wish them well.

I am not Chinese and am not a wannabe- the blend of external and internal "works" for this non Chinese me and other folks I know. And yes- against resisting opponents.

The proven idea of "fajing" is well known in the internal arts. Explosive fajing in wing chun is a verifiable fact. the advantage of wing chun(over some other internal arts) is that there is an excellent blend of the external as well- the alignments, the lines of attack, the strategies and tactics and many other things.

TCM is a different matter. While there are overlaps in approaches to the human body. in TCM and TCMA.. good wing chun teaching, learning and
practice can give results. Its not mumbo jumbo or mysticism. And one does not have to be a TCM person to do or understand wing chun.

Keep repeating- wing chun is one approach to martial activity- it is not the only one. Conversely not every approach to "fighting" that works for someone is necessarily wing chun. It may be part of one's own repertoire.

Its a big world out there and it is presumptuous for any one to speak of productivity in all of wing chun.

Lots of us have not really met each other and there can be unwarranted presumpions reagrding what others do.

We can discuss things on KFO- but there is no selected jury here
to pronounce judgments..

RedJunkRebel
12-02-2004, 08:38 PM
Although. these "internal" things may be just a part of the grand scheme of body mechanics, they describe certain principles of body use and application. No, internal or external, aren't the best terms, but they're now engrained and words that everyone uses. Its pretty much unavoidable to get around using them yourself.


Lots of people use the term "internal" -- but what we don't see is anyone who uses that term really getting any significant results. You can give imaginary things names if you want to but that won't help your punch.

That's just because many of the people that distinguish themselves as internal martial artists don't train to be known for their fighting. Their priorities are just different.

In the end, Joy is correct: "there is no selected jury here
to pronounce judgments" as to what is productive and what is not. We all have different priorities and look at things and how we train based on those priorities.

yellowpikachu
12-03-2004, 12:42 AM
6 directions force vector? non linear multi-diamentional execution?
Qi ? energy gating? Chakra opening? heat? dynamics? spiral non- linear force handling? keng geng................


who knows?


Thus, I have heard only. I have never spend lots and lots of money doing research, but heard from those old guys around the world. not only Theory but just Thus I have heard. hahaha:D:D:D



Nah those Internal Wing Chun stuffs doesnt looks like is from Shao Lin :D, Thus I have heard. not a theory no research done!



Joy,

The indian is modeling the energy with the energy center as the reference core.
The chinese is modelling the distribution system to gain access for manupulations... IMHO. But, both can be converge if one has mastered the energy realm technics.

Some drunken thoughts from a cold night at airport.

Jim Roselando
12-03-2004, 04:31 AM
Hey Joy!


Nice write up!


Take care!

t_niehoff
12-03-2004, 06:50 AM
Terence, I am sorry but I think I get it and know what results it gives as I can feel it and anyone I have shown can feel it in a real short period of time. The human body has not changes much in the last few hundred years.

**No, but our knowledge of the human body, how it works, how to train it better, etc. has grown.

By the time most Kung Fu and martial art was developed or formulated they fully understood how to maximize the bodies power/health.

**No, they didn't -- this is just the old "the ancients knew all and had perfect knowledge" trap. Human physical performance in every single area has improved over the years, yet you continue to hold onto the fantasy that the "ancestors" knew more and did it better than we do today. It's just the opposite, they knew less and didn't do it as well.

Which happen to work hand in hand and are not seperate in chinese martial art. Its not rocket science after all. What I find really odd is that for you to comment on if something is useful or not if they have not spent the time to cultivate the things they discuss. Or! Maybe you did but just did not get the results so it may go back to how you were shown.

**There is no "internal" and "external" -- there are just human body mechanics, and there is a most efficient way to do any specific physical task. The labels that our ancestors may have attached to these mechanics aren't important; the mechanics are. My view is that we don't need ancient chinese cosmology (internal/external/4 elements/chi/etc.) to learn or develop those mechanics. That cosmology, in fact, more often just gets in the way of where the focus should be (the mechanics itself). It's the same when folks try to use newtonian physics (f=ma) to develop their punch -- it just gets in the way. This is not how human beings learn or develop physical actions. If someone wants to learn or develop their punch or their golf swing (or any physical or athletic action) we approach it the same way: focus on the mechanics and attributes for most effectively achieving the desired result. Labelling those mechanics "internal" doesn't change that they are just body mechanics. There is a best way to swing a golf club to get maximum drive distance with accuracy; there is a best way to develop stationary penetration power with a straight punch. You can call them both "internal" if you like. For me, the label is meaningless. I just stick to the mechanics and leave the cosmology out of it

I am thinking out loud here as I cannot understand how someone could not feel the results if they went thru the simple training it takes to develop this stuff as part of your art. Besides. ALL Kung Fu was based around knowledge of the inside and outside inlcuding WCK. Going thru the tendon/sinew changes is EASY! Opening and closing the joints is EASY. Yup! EASY Sorry to not make it sounds very complicated but it is and the results are easily noticed and felt. So, making comments about people being from a differrent time in the world having useless info. for us modern folk is far from accurate. Its simple training that is right inside your forms. Then! You train it to be useful like anything. If you decide not to do or do not understand how to develop it thats fine but claiming something is useless without giving it a fair shot is not right. Leung Jan was telling his people something that he felt was important for them to know about WCK. Just that simple.

**I say that you learn the form which includes the proper body mechanics, then you develop it. Period. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. Leung Jan used the terminology he had, and that which his students would be familiar with, to try and explain these things (he didn't have oour biomechancial perspective to draw on). They "understood" the world from that chinese cosmological perspective, with chi, the four elements, etc. We don't need that cosmology to explain our world. It doesn't help us today. So when LJ talked about "internal" he wasn't correct, he was merely explaining things in the best way he could (given his limited cosmological worldview). That's just his perspective, not "the truth."

Maybe he uses that term because its something he is used to saying and in all honesty any art that utilizes a specific structure or trains a structural alignment as part of their art is Internal. Internal mechanics! Although, thats just one part of it. Thats why I dont like to classify them as internal or external but rather soft/hard or dead as you can have alignment but lack the inside cultivation that goes along with it. Egg shell with no yoke. But! You can fight with anything if you train hard enough. it all comes down to the individual and how he was taught/trains!

**You can fight with anything, but not anything will be effective against skilled opponents. That requires good stuff. This is true in any physical activity -- that's why all pro golfers have the same basic (with individual variances) golf swing: because those mechanics are most effective. That's why all grapplers, regardless of style, have the same hip throw: because those mechanics are most effective.

Perhaps you should meet some authentic Mantis, Dragon, White Crane, Whitebrow fighters that have cultivated a high degree of skill and test it out. These thing do not get in the way unless they are taught in a stupid mystical way. Its just simple stuff that goes along with the full package of any art. ITS RIGHT IN YOUR FORMS! Your not doing anything extra or special. Most martial art is nothing more than the shell with no yoke and its not about being a TCM Doctor but simple body cultivation IMO. The problem is most dont pass on the inside info. or some just dont care about it.

**Ah, yes, the "secret knowledge" that all theoreticans love to rely on. Where are all these "authentic Mantis, Dragon, White Crane, Whitebrow fighters that have cultivated a high degree of skill"? How come they aren't fighting publically? Because they are like bigfoot, everyone has heard of them, but when we look for hard evidence -- poof, they disappear. I agree that *it* is the forms -- the mechanics are right there. All we need to do is take the form, and try to make it functional, and the mechanics will become clear. No secrets, no mysticism, no nonsense.

Now! Lets use your typical swimming comment. How much genuine fighting skill is out there in any art with the bulk of people? You acknowledge over and over that there is not much.

**In those arts that focus on developing genuine fighting skill, like boxing, muay thai, judo, BJJ, wrestling, MMA, etc. the overwheliming majority that practice those arts do develop good skill. That's not the case with most TCMAs, including WCK, because their focus is not on developing genuine fighting skill. They're doing things like trying to develop internal power. ;)

So, its up to the individual and if they are taught it in a simple way they will think of it in a simple way (keep in mind that ITS RIGHT IN YOUR FORMS) and get out and use it. If they are taught that it will make you float or dance on clouds then they will get pounded. Basics are basics and all Kung Fu has this stuff. Some prefer not to practice and some do. All the best of the best of any art or chinese system had this stuff. It makes a difference IMO. Can you develop good skill without it? Sure but if you tain hard with it you will feel the difference.

structure, mechanics, tendons/sinews, opening/closing of the joints/torso, breathing, spine discharge, rise/sink etc. etc..

Lots of stuff that goes along with any art. Nothing majical!

**I agree there is nothing magical.

yellowpikachu
12-03-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by t_niehoff


**No, but our knowledge of the human body, how it works, how to train it better, etc. has grown.


**No, they didn't -- this is just the old "the ancients knew all and had perfect knowledge" trap. Human physical performance in every single area has improved over the years, yet you continue to hold onto the fantasy that the "ancestors" knew more and did it better than we do today. It's just the opposite, they knew less and didn't do it as well. .........

.



might be true or might be not.

There is the "the ancients knew all and had perfect knowledge believe " trap. there is also " the modern knew more believe" trap.
Both are illusion and fantasy without looking deep into reality of what has been done and can be reproduced.
stay in denial is always stay in denial no matter what kind of believe trap one in.


The key is about to have a clear understanding.


Thus, I have heard, one can take a guy who has not much experience in internal,
given him a few simple move to practice, and months later that person will develop something he never expected and expand his horizon of his mind and body. without theory without believe without have to join a cult, without has to do all the ritural,....

If only if one have the process for development, one will have the result, eventhought the degree of the result still has to depend on the person.

just do it and enjoy the process and one will get there. without thinking about the result, and fantasy about modern and ancient.

Thus, I have heard. ofcause. ( sure those old guys might lie to me!)

BTW, it is magical as I have heard. It is magical because the result is beyond the limitation of a personal prejudice or limiting view.



and that also convince me the direction of some research team who claim to spend lots of money, traveling around the world, and published lots of article about the origin of WCK is heading towards a wrong direction. Why? because when the research doesnt bring forward the process and the Key to open the lock of SLT. something is very wrong. otherwise, one will find the simple and direct key of the lock when one gets close to the root or origine. without that snake body activation key, things are not going to be going too far and deep. Thus, the result of trying to groups /mix/combine lots of different things or styles to make it deep is expected.


just some thoughts and opinion.

Vajramusti
12-03-2004, 10:28 AM
Good post yellowpikachu on the two illusions-
progress and no progress.

yellowpikachu
12-03-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Vajramusti
Good post yellowpikachu on the two illusions-
progress and no progress.


Joy,


It is simple, get a guy to the Kundalini class with real master.
Let the master teach a few moves and process to activate the kundalini without going into believe, cult, science, philosophy, modern, old, believe,......


just by following the process, and do the simple move, what needs to show up will show up on time.

how can one without that experience of the body/mind speculate that? No, it cant be. and thus, people get into denial (deny) state trying to logic away what they dont understand to hope that things going their way. There are lots of fear there. fear of if the things really exist then what thier believe will cracks. fear of they have nothing to grap on if thier believe is shock cracks. IMHO



I once heard about a person who can within 15 mins make a beginer feel the qi flow to the finger tips. within 6 weeks know the 6 directions vector force, the beginer dont have to know anythng but following the process. certainly, that is a proof about a clear understanding of the process on what it can do and cannot do. I hope I met that person somedays.



as the chinese belive goes on ---- I will teach you all the set and applications but not the process to activate the power. As it said, training in application and set without the kung, at old age one get no where. so someone in the line shut the process off and the whole system goes in the direction of extinct.


I will search for the process but not the secret teaching of applications or sets or .... otherwise nothing will work at old age as the chinese said. at old age one gets no where.

just somet houghts

Jim Roselando
12-03-2004, 01:09 PM
Terence,



**No, but our knowledge of the human body, how it works, how to train it better, etc. has grown.

Really? Like what? The body can go left, right, forward, back, up and down? The insides have not changed either. Do you really think Martial Art had not figured out how to harniss some of that stuff? Sure! We have modern things that can help us speed up the process! Better equipment this or that but to train the body one just has to do that but as part of that one needs to know the body.


**No, they didn't -- this is just the old "the ancients knew all and had perfect knowledge" trap. Human physical performance in every single area has improved over the years, yet you continue to hold onto the fantasy that the "ancestors" knew more and did it better than we do today. It's just the opposite, they knew less and didn't do it as well.

I have met many from the so-called old to the so-called modern. Yes! Good is good no matter what but since you obviously have not experienced anyone with the older knowledge built in all I can say is the difference it noticeable.

**There is no "internal" and "external" -- there are just human body mechanics, and there is a most efficient way to do any specific physical task.

Terence! Body mechanics are part of it so I agree with you but there are a lot of things in the body that go into the total package IMO.

The labels that our ancestors may have attached to these mechanics aren't important; the mechanics are. My view is that we don't need ancient chinese cosmology (internal/external/4 elements/chi/etc.) to learn or develop those mechanics. That cosmology, in fact, more often just gets in the way of where the focus should be (the mechanics itself). It's the same when folks try to use newtonian physics (f=ma) to develop their punch -- it just gets in the way. This is not how human beings learn or develop physical actions. If someone wants to learn or develop their punch or their golf swing (or any physical or athletic action) we approach it the same way: focus on the mechanics and attributes for most effectively achieving the desired result.

Mechanics are part of it but there is a lot of stuff in the body.

Labelling those mechanics "internal" doesn't change that they are just body mechanics. There is a best way to swing a golf club to get maximum drive distance with accuracy; there is a best way to develop stationary penetration power with a straight punch. You can call them both "internal" if you like. For me, the label is meaningless. I just stick to the mechanics and leave the cosmology out of it

Atleast you said "for you"! I guess its up to you to define what is or isn't proper? hehe It all comes down to how you are taught it.


**I say that you learn the form which includes the proper body mechanics, then you develop it. Period. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

I hate to repeat myself but Mechanics are part of it but there is more.

Leung Jan used the terminology he had, and that which his students would be familiar with, to try and explain these things (he didn't have oour biomechancial perspective to draw on). They "understood" the world from that chinese cosmological perspective, with chi, the four elements, etc. We don't need that cosmology to explain our world. It doesn't help us today. So when LJ talked about "internal" he wasn't correct, he was merely explaining things in the best way he could (given his limited cosmological worldview). That's just his perspective, not "the truth."

Terece, I am starting to think you really never had it explained to you. Noi Kung in WC is developed in a certain way. A real real simple way. If you do not develop WC Noi Kung then what type of tendon/sinew power is combined with your Mechanics? WC or something else?

**You can fight with anything, but not anything will be effective against skilled opponents. That requires good stuff. This is true in any physical activity -- that's why all pro golfers have the same basic (with individual variances) golf swing: because those mechanics are most effective. That's why all grapplers, regardless of style, have the same hip throw: because those mechanics are most effective.

Insert the words I keep repeating.

**Ah, yes, the "secret knowledge" that all theoreticans love to rely on.

Facts are facts. Many people feel X ammount is enough. Some feel X + is enough. One thign that is known is the role secrecy plays in the martial art world. If you want I am more than happy to start a thread addressing it with loads of Facts. Also, nothing about being a theoretician which seems to be your favorite label for anyone who appreciates knoweldge as well as hard work.

Where are all these "authentic Mantis, Dragon, White Crane, Whitebrow fighters that have cultivated a high degree of skill"? How come they aren't fighting publically? Because they are like bigfoot, everyone has heard of them, but when we look for hard evidence -- poof, they disappear.

Want a list? Ok. Why not start with Bak Lim Wong Mantis group in NY or Roger Hagood and his group. How about some Whitebrow guys? Ok. Chin Dor in NY and his group are exceptional? The Free Masons in Boston are also very skilled. All are never shy for a test of skill. You seem to think unless someone is public they have no value and its understandable as you come from public school but lots of people are more than happy to stay out of the public and avoid all the crap that comes with it and just develop high skill. Out of how many publics schools can you find high quality? Who do you regard as high quality WCK? There are 1000's out there but I bet its a few. Its just how you train and the info that goes with it.

I agree that *it* is the forms -- the mechanics are right there. All we need to do is take the form, and try to make it functional, and the mechanics will become clear. No secrets, no mysticism, no nonsense.

There is a training or development of the body that comes along with mechanics and other stuff. Please explain what type of training it would take to change the tendons/sinews thru the forms? Would doing SLT once or twice a day do it? Would doing dummy hands do it? Chi Sao? What?

**In those arts that focus on developing genuine fighting skill, like boxing, muay thai, judo, BJJ, wrestling, MMA, etc. the overwheliming majority that practice those arts do develop good skill. That's not the case with most TCMAs, including WCK, because their focus is not on developing genuine fighting skill.

All that stuff is great but there is authentic fighting kung fu still around. Stuff that is simple to learn and train.

They're doing things like trying to develop internal power.

How do you develop internal power? Whats so hard about it? Could it just be the people explaining it?


**I agree there is nothing magical.

Then we agree on something! hehehe


Just kidding man! Hey! No big deal if we dont agree. Doesn't matter either way. Believe what you want and so will I. Such is life.


I leave you with a quote from Wang Xiang Zhai:

The arts of our nation are in a chaotic state. Summed up, they have abandond the quintessence and kept on the scum.

This coming from a man who believed in proper training/knoweldge and fighting! BALANCE

I translate it to: Egg shell with no yoke!


Regards,

PaulH
12-03-2004, 05:45 PM
Terence,

Five elements not four! That's all! =)

t_niehoff
12-04-2004, 07:02 AM
Jim,

My experience is that all folks, regardless of their style, stytem, or lineage, that are genuinely fighting as the core of their training think along the same lines -- that very experience forces them to (it reveals the BS, the myths, the nonsense that make up a large part of the TCMAs). And because they think along the same lines, they use similar words or terms (which, after all, represent ideas). Conversely, folks that aren't fighting as the core of their training don't have the BS, the myths, the nonsense revealed to them -- they continue to buy into it. Their words and terms show how they are thinking as well.

"Touching hands", "tests of skill", "internal power" (noi kung), energies, secrets, "facts", lineages, etc. are all words/terms a nonfighter or theoretician uses; fighters just don't think like that. The major characteristic of a nonfighter or theoretician is that they believe WCK is knowledge-based (do you *know* . . .); fighters know any martial art is skill-based (vs. can you *do* it). If you can make your "internal power" work while fighitng skilled fighters, that's great. I hope one day you can show it to me. You may want to look at my latest post in the "WC & anti-grappling thread" about the Boztepe-Chung fight; it sort of encapsulates my thoughts when it comes to all this stuff.

FWIW, in my universe, the sinews/tendons are part of what drives our body (in fact, I don't separate muscle from tendon from bone -- it all works in conjunction). And as such, they are a necessary part of any body mechanics.

yellowpikachu
12-04-2004, 09:03 AM
1, "Touching hands", "tests of skill", "internal power" (noi kung), energies, secrets, "facts", lineages, etc. are all words/terms a nonfighter or theoretician uses;------------------


1, It is interesting how one develop this view.

However, is it a description of the reality or is it an extreem view. that IMHO remain to be examine.

As for equate the terms nonfighter = theoretician that is a too broad proposal IMHO. Bruce Lee has that Tao of JKD book, MAs Oyama has a This is Karate book. Osense deal alots with philosophy. Jack Dempsy has a boxing book...... and list continous on. these are fighters and certainly know what they are doing. so why bother they wrote books and present thier philosophy and theories?

Theory is needed to understand and predict first order effect.
those who is clear about producing result knows a great deal of theory. IMHO.

by equating non fighter = theorician that is a theory itself, isnt it? if so, then is the one who propose this theory a non fighter?


IMHO, one needs theory and process hand in hand to clearly beable to reproduce something and get result. say the Keng Geng of WCK, lots of grandmaster and master speak about it. but then what and how is the theory and process to reproduce it? That "I will show you" statements lots of people use is just not good enough. a repetable result needs a stable theory as the guide and a proven process. Until these can be describe clearly and precisely. Does one really know what is what?

as an example, One can hop into one's car and feel great and safe and drive that car. and if it isnt a very strong theory background and process of quality control to manufacturing a car. how is that possible?

how many times in one's life one fight? how many hours one drives in a car? which even can get one killed easily? IMHO I think driving in a car.

As for critical thinking or analysis, how can one formulate a NONFIGHTER = Theorician without understanding about what theory is about and why theory is needed?

So, IMHO, NON Figther = No process might be a better equation.
Fighter needs theory and theories. But without good pragmatic Process, one gets no where.






2, fighters just don't think like that. The major characteristic of a nonfighter or theoretician is that they believe WCK is knowledge-based (do you *know* . . .); fighters know any martial art is skill-based (vs. can you *do* it). -------------------------

2, certainly there is a "do you know" and "can you do it". However, I think both are needed instead of placing one vesus the other.

may be it is 1, do you know the theory? 2, do you know the process of realization the theory? 3, can you do it? 4, how far have you successfully attain or reach in the doing?

Take the same KEng Geng , since we are talking about basic WCK, as example again, ask the sets of same 4 questions. if one cant answer all the questions then may be there is more works needs to be done.

But then even one can answer all the 4 questions clearly with action. that still doesnt mean one is the invincible fighter. for, there is a weigthing on how fluent and how deep.... one has master the art.



3, You may want to look at my latest post in the "WC & anti-grappling thread" about the Boztepe-Chung fight; it sort of encapsulates my thoughts when it comes to all this stuff. ------------

3, every human being has blind spots a screw up...since human is human.
a case in history do not by defualt represent a person for all of his life. if we label any person, we are ignoring he is living, his capable to change as any other human being.



The problem of interpretating a single point data into the whole universe is that one can view a single point from any angle and draw a conclusion; and it is a perfect correct conclusion from that point of view. however, IMHO, why dont just gather more data and let the data make the picture by its own? no speculation is needed because speculation can be our fantasy thinking and our view cannot replace the data. we have to face and guard ourself from the human behavior of we all love our own theory to be the TRUTH even when we blind ourself.


just some thoughts.

t_niehoff
12-04-2004, 09:39 AM
However, is it a description of the reality or is it an extreem view. that IMHO remain to be examine.

As for equate the terms nonfighter = theoretician that is a too broad proposal IMHO. Bruce Lee has that Tao of JKD book, MAs Oyama has a This is Karate book. Osense deal alots with philosophy. Jack Dempsy has a boxing book...... and list continous on. these are fighters and certainly know what they are doing. so why bother they wrote books and present thier philosophy and theories?

**Hendrik, the point is that fighters have a certain perspective that comes from actually fighting (as opposed to believing how fighting #should# be). Certainly fighters have strategies, tools, concepts, mechanics, etc. and these can be written about or discussed (the Gracies have written books too). But all their "wisdom" come from actually fighting (Lee, Dempsey, Oyama, Gracies all fought) not from hearsay. If it did come from hearsay, they tested it through fighting -- they didn't accept it as true. And they all "broke from the past", as all fighters must, because skill in fighting, like skill any physical activity, is individual in expression.

Theory is needed to understand and predict first order effect.
those who is clear about producing result knows a great deal of theory. IMHO.

**IME one can't begin from a "theory" but begins from observation -- for the reality of what is. In other words, we begin from the reality of the fighting environment; not what we want to believe it is but what it actually is. From there, we may form ideas or theories on how to solve the problems we encounter and then test those notions.

by equating non fighter = theorician that is a theory itself, isnt it? if so, then is the one who propose this theory a non fighter?

**No, it's based on observation -- I've observed that fighters and nonfighters have different perspectives.

IMHO, one needs theory and process hand in hand to clearly beable to reproduce something and get result. say the Keng Geng of WCK, lots of grandmaster and master speak about it. but then what and how is the theory and process to reproduce it? That "I will show you" statements lots of people use is just not good enough. a repetable result needs a stable theory as the guide and a proven process. Until these can be describe clearly and precisely. Does one really know what is what?

**Ask a boxer to show you how to do a right cross and they can do just that. It's simple mechanics. Nothing magical or secret. And it's not a theory. Even if you don't show someone how to do a cross, if you have them throw enough of them (actually hit things), they'll find it themselves. Why? Because if you use a tool and try to make it maximally functional, you'll find the best mechancis.

As for critical thinking or analysis, how can one formulate a NONFIGHTER = Theorician without understanding about what theory is about and why theory is needed?

So, IMHO, NON Figther = No process might be a better equation.
Fighter needs theory and theories. But without good pragmatic Process, one gets no where.

**This is all intellectual BS. Don't theorize about this -- just go observe good, skilled fighters. Talk to them. You'll see their perspective, and how it grows out of their experience.

2, fighters just don't think like that. The major characteristic of a nonfighter or theoretician is that they believe WCK is knowledge-based (do you *know* . . .); fighters know any martial art is skill-based (vs. can you *do* it). -------------------------

2, certainly there is a "do you know" and "can you do it". However, I think both are needed instead of placing one vesus the other.

may be it is 1, do you know the theory? 2, do you know the process of realization the theory? 3, can you do it? 4, how far have you successfully attain or reach in the doing?

Take the same KEng Geng , since we are talking about basic WCK, as example again, ask the sets of same 4 questions. if one cant answer all the questions then may be there is more works needs to be done.

But then even one can answer all the 4 questions clearly with action. that still doesnt mean one is the invincible fighter. for, there is a weigthing on how fluent and how deep.... one has master the art.

**Fighters can often do things and not even be aware they are doing them -- that comes with any true skill (much of it is achieved unconsciously). You are in the "knowledge" trap. It's not what you know, it is what you can do that matters. If all I have is the basic punch but I can make that work and you know all of WCK but can't make it work . . .well, you get the idea. And IMO YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW IT UNLESS YOU CAN DO IT.

3, You may want to look at my latest post in the "WC & anti-grappling thread" about the Boztepe-Chung fight; it sort of encapsulates my thoughts when it comes to all this stuff. ------------

3, every human being has blind spots a screw up...since human is human.
a case in history do not by defualt represent a person for all of his life. if we label any person, we are ignoring he is living, his capable to change as any other human being.

The problem of interpretating a single point data into the whole universe is that one can view a single point from any angle and draw a conclusion and it is correct from that point of view. however, IMHO, why dont just gather more data and let the datas make the picture by its own?

**You miss the point. Look at the links I provided. I don't think they are good WCK, i.e., skillful fighitng, but they demonstrate the environment where we need to apply whatever skills we have. The "fighter's perspective" is that you *begin* with the demands of the situation, the fighting environment, with the reality of it, not with some idealistic idea of what someone wants to believe it should be. That's what boxers, BJJists, MMAists -- anyone that genuinely trains to fight -- does. Nonfighters or theorists begin from what they believe it should be.

yellowpikachu
12-04-2004, 10:16 AM
**the point is that fighters have a certain perspective that comes from actually fighting (as opposed to believing how fighting #should# be). -----------


Didnt the thought of

" the point is that fighters have a certain perspective that comes from actually fighting (as opposed to believing how fighting #should# be). "

set a man made expectation about how a thinker #should# be?

Is that still nature or it is based on some one's thought on how the world should be or else wrong?





**IME one can't begin from a "theory" but begins from observation -- for the reality of what is. ----------


Let's observe:

Do we all grow from starting to inventing a spoon to drink soup , and then observe how to design wheel , then computer......






**No, it's based on observation -- I've observed that fighters and nonfighters have different perspectives. ------------


Strange that I observe different.
from how to hold a spoon, how to make a fist . others taught me those stuffs.







**Ask a boxer to show you how to do a right cross and they can do just that. It's simple mechanics. Nothing magical or secret. -----

Ask a WCNer to show you how to do a WCK Keng Geng. It is simple mechanics. Nothing magical or secret. if one know the theory behind it and the process of producing it, and practice according to it.

However, for those like me who have no clue about what is a Keng Geng, the theory, and the process. I can only BSing with myth . So the problem might not the theory and process it is my delusion of I know WCK.





(As for critical thinking or analysis, how can one formulate a NONFIGHTER = Theorician without understanding about what theory is about and why theory is needed?

So, IMHO, NON Figther = No process might be a better equation.
Fighter needs theory and theories. But without good pragmatic Process, one gets no where. --- Hendrik)

**This is all intellectual BS. Don't theorize about this -- just go observe good, skilled fighters. Talk to them. You'll see their perspective, and how it grows out of their experience. ----------




isnt it Strange that I observe and observe WCK and people keep do Boxing, TKD, karate, hung Gar,..... I dont see people doing WCK.

Am I do WCK or not?

if I am then I should be able to describe how to reproduce Keng Geng.
If not I must be doing BS WCK and using all the myth and karate, shao lin, Hung gar stuffs as WCK.






**Fighters can often do things and not even be aware they are doing them -- that comes with any true skill (much of it is achieved unconsciously). ------

so are they in control or are they not?

it will be interesting if I falling into sleep and still driving while I am driving. I guess that will make me a master of driving.





****You are in the "knowledge" trap. It's not what you know, it is what you can do that matters.-------


I might but I might not. what if somedays when I get enlightent, and ,

I know,
can do,
and be able to transfer to others who believe or not believe me how to do Keng geng in 60 mins. feeling of Qi and its transportation in 30 mins.

So, am I still in that "knowledge" trap?




*** If all I have is the basic punch but I can make that work and you know all of WCK but can't make it work . . .well, you get the idea. And IMO YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW IT UNLESS YOU CAN DO IT.-----


I look at things differently,
IMHO. ---YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW IT UNLESS YOU CAN DO IT, CAN TRANSFER TO OTHERS WHAT YOU CAN DO IN A PRECISE MANER, AND THEY CAN DO WHAT YOU DO REPEATABLY WITHOUT THINKING WITH EASE.

as for know WCK, I dont because I dont know how to do Keng Geng.






**You miss the point. Look at the links I provided. I don't think they are good WCK------


I might and I might not miss the point.

What is Good WCK if the basic KENG GENG stays mysterious and un reproduceble? Since I have no Idea about Keng geng. I dont know WCK, thus, can differentital what is a GOOD WCK or a BAD WCK. IMHO.

-----------------------------------


since it is about WC internal Mechanics.
As GM Ip Man once said, "So complicated? is it Neuclear Physics?"

I hope some one here enlightent us on what is the basic WCK power generation Keng Geng, its theory, process. Until then, I dont know what is GOOD WCK because I dont know WCK.

Dont give me all that ZEn, Shao Lin, WuDang, Rebels.... I will show you.. teaching with words, one by one... alabi (sp?)

Doesnt Keng Geng or Chuck Geng exist? Yes ? No?
if Yes then what is the Mechanics?


it is BSing to fill with myth but no can do. it is also BSing to substitute Karate, WuDang, Shao Lin, Boxing, Xing Yee, TaiJi, Hung Gar, Dragon Style, MMA.... and call it WCK. It is Bsing to call everything what works WCK. IMHHHHHHO

So, some one please enlightent me on the theory, process of Keng Geng. since the discussion topic is about internal mechanics of WCK not about Boxing or MMA or figther or fighting.
until then I dont know WCK.



just some thoughts. and as always I can be wrong. a note has to be also post here that i disagree with Terence on ideas but a single point data doesnt make me taken Terence as opposition. as I mention before. as human we all can inteprete a single point data into a whole universe according to our own like or dislike...etc. and I dont like to travel that path.

KPM
12-05-2004, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by t_niehoff
Jim,

My experience is that all folks, regardless of their style, stytem, or lineage, that are genuinely fighting as the core of their training think along the same lines -- that very experience forces them to (it reveals the BS, the myths, the nonsense that make up a large part of the TCMAs). And because they think along the same lines, they use similar words or terms (which, after all, represent ideas). Conversely, folks that aren't fighting as the core of their training don't have the BS, the myths, the nonsense revealed to them -- they continue to buy into it. Their words and terms show how they are thinking as well.

"Touching hands", "tests of skill", "internal power" (noi kung), energies, secrets, "facts", lineages, etc. are all words/terms a nonfighter or theoretician uses; fighters just don't think like that. The major characteristic of a nonfighter or theoretician is that they believe WCK is knowledge-based (do you *know* . . .); fighters know any martial art is skill-based (vs. can you *do* it). If you can make your "internal power" work while fighitng skilled fighters, that's great. I hope one day you can show it to me. You may want to look at my latest post in the "WC & anti-grappling thread" about the Boztepe-Chung fight; it sort of encapsulates my thoughts when it comes to all this stuff.

FWIW, in my universe, the sinews/tendons are part of what drives our body (in fact, I don't separate muscle from tendon from bone -- it all works in conjunction). And as such, they are a necessary part of any body mechanics.

---Gee Terence, its nice that everything is so black and white in your world. Where's the balance?

Keith

kj
12-05-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by t_niehoff
"Touching hands", "tests of skill", "internal power" (noi kung), energies, secrets, "facts", lineages, etc. are all words/terms a nonfighter or theoretician uses; fighters just don't think like that.[deletia]

... and ...


Originally posted by KPM
---Gee Terence, its nice that everything is so black and white in your world. Where's the balance?

Keith

Lots of "fighters" talk theory. Musashi and Jack Dempsey are easy examples; they were fighters yet found theoretical discussions interesting and presumably useful. Hendrik may not be fighting at present, but he has done so in the past and holds that experience. None of these people write/wrote the same way or focus on the same topics that Terence does. Who knows what kinds of things this lady fighter (http://www.bordergatewayprotocol.net/jon/humor/video/beatdown.wmv) speaks about in conversation or muses about in her writings. Whatever they are, I'll gander it's different than the stuff Terence and some of the other forum fighters like to focus on.

It's becoming more common to hear of collegiate and professional sports teams pursuing supplemental training options like taiji (tai chi) (http://espn.go.com/TrainingRoom/tylenol/1575839.html); it would be odd if, in doing so, their dialog failed to grow beyond their sport-specific vernacular.

It's healthy to bear in mind common errors of logic in argumentative writing (http://www.siue.edu/~smoiles/fallac.html).

Some may remember Rosie Grier (http://www.nndb.com/people/635/000023566/) and how shocked the public was in learning that he enjoyed needle arts including crochet and needlepoint, eventually authoring a book on the subject. Assumptions, generalizations, "categorizing people," and even prejudices can be useful to a point, but also hazardous especially when asserted or accepted as "facts."

Regards,
- kj

yellowpikachu
12-05-2004, 06:31 PM
Speaking about WC internal Mechanics.


Lots have been discussed about the mysterious Qi or Chi or the power....



Thus, I have heard,

As it said, internally cultivate the Jiing (essence) Qi (energy in the form of heat flow. The path of flow is called Mai) and Shen ( awareness)

However, what it was not told is ----

1, One has to have a good storage of Jiing to cultivate the Qi.

2, One has to do physical movements to cultivate the Qi from the combination of Jiing, Breathing, and physical movements.

Then, when the Qi shows up. One transport it and then at the end stored it.

With the storage of the Qi,


3, one cultivate the Shen (Awareness) via silence or Standing post.....sitting meditation....

So, there is a 3 steps process.



and , the general process might be:

first, one has to have good neutritian/food, rest, sleep, drink, abstain from sex or anger or... to store up the Jiing.

Then, secondly, the sifu will give a certain move to let the student practice to generate the Qi and flowing through the Mai via physical training with the combination of proper breathing and the Jiing.

Then, thirdly, the sifu will give the standing post/sitting meditation and THE MIND METHOD (meaning the way how to deal with consciousness ....ect ) to cultivate the Awareness.


So, without the JIING or a decent physcial body. Qi cultivation is tough. Without knowing how to cultivate the Qi and store it. One is not going to get great usefull about that QI. without the transcending of Qi to Shen. one is not going to have a firm stable awareness and intutive....



and,

Without a clear understanding about the Theory/process/practice of the internal mechanics .Those who believe the QI in a mystical way believing in it almost blindly, but still for decades not be able to get the result. Those who have no idea what is going on, almost blindly reject it, not to know that strong healty body has lots of Jiing and Qi to start with, for Jiing and Qi are components within a Chinese human model to model the nature of human mind/body reality.IMHO.


Thus, one who is serious in the training of qi needs a teacher who have walked the path. a lineage which has record of succesfully training process. It isnt easy to get the information /process at all. not every book will lead one to a proper training. not every grandmaster or even gate holder in Chinese Martial art know and master about internal training and that is a reality.



and those fajing stuff is not difficult to learn at all. it takes not more then 90 mins to learn the mechanics. the issues are do one have the internal development or the basic required Jiing Qi Shen to power the fajing.


The bottom line is --- it is about energy collecting, delivery, refinement. from physcial to heat flow to mind power....

Ofcorse, all above is just THUS, I HAVE Heard. Dont take it serious please.




just some 2cents thoughts.


PS:D
please help me to guard this above and make sure it is not copied. write in any book without given credit. claim to be the most original, but in the reality copying mine stuffs. and....ect. I have pattent them. :D:D:D:D so if you copy I know! :D:D:D

PaulH
12-06-2004, 01:07 PM
Kathy,

That fat lady must be the very vision of John Keat's Belle!
---------
I saw pale kings and princes too,
Pale warriors, death-pale were they all;
They cried—“La Belle Dame sans Merci
Hath thee in thrall!”

PaulH
12-06-2004, 01:53 PM
Hendrik,

I usually have a problem of cold hands and feet when it's cold. What can I do to increase heat flow to these extreme ends? Thanks!

Vajramusti
12-06-2004, 03:06 PM
Very good post Hendrik. Blindly accepting the jing-qi connection or blindly being biased aginst it are both problems.The only thing I can add is that the internal principles still have to be blended with wing chun srtuctural principles, dynamics and startegy.... in the sense that wing chun is not taiji.... though both are founded on natural realism.

YongChun
12-06-2004, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by t_niehoff


**IME one can't begin from a "theory" but begins from observation -- for the reality of what is. In other words, we begin from the reality of the fighting environment; not what we want to believe it is but what it actually is. From there, we may form ideas or theories on how to solve the problems we encounter and then test those notions.


**Ask a boxer to show you how to do a right cross and they can do just that. It's simple mechanics. Nothing magical or secret. And it's not a theory. Even if you don't show someone how to do a cross, if you have them throw enough of them (actually hit things), they'll find it themselves. Why? Because if you use a tool and try to make it maximally functional, you'll find the best mechancis.



I think the opposite is true. Someone comes to learn Wing Chun. So you tell them the theory. Then you teach them how to move and tell them why that's good, again theory. Then they spar and find out what adjustments need to be made to make the theory work. The form is the theory you start with. Maybe the form comes from fighters, maybe it comes from people who watched fighters fight, nobody knows.

Someone can throw thousands of punches and still have the mechanics wrong or at least not optimal. It sometimes takes a very sharp eye to adjust a motion. That's why even power lifters have a team of 20 people analyze their every move and most have never power lifted in their life (according to a TV show on this subject I saw a few weeks back).

Ray

old jong
12-06-2004, 04:51 PM
Some may take the expression "Fonction before form" to much on the first sense meaning. ;)

t_niehoff
12-06-2004, 05:06 PM
http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/23/1184.html?1102374199#POST13124

This post is from Tim Cartmell, a TCMA and BJJ practitioner and teacher who speaks chinese and lived/studied in China for a decade or so, and may provide some insight. The link is above . . . .

----

I think one of the problems of understanding concepts is the difficulty in coming to common definitions of terminology. This is very true when translating from one language (and culture) to another, especially when the concepts come to us across a great expanse of time.

Wang Xiangzhai is a good example. He was dead set against any type of "mystification" or the martial arts and the "feudal" hierarchy in student-teacher relationships. But he was limited to the terminology of his time, and practical as his teachings were, they are still full of seemingly abstruse concepts that are not easily understood; the problem is amplified when his articles are translated into English. For example, how you define "qi" will make all the difference as to whether it is a useful concept or major hinderance for martial arts training.

Interestingly enough, if you translate Dempsy's terminology into Chinese martial terminology, you'd come up with bsically the same concepts used in the Chinese IMA (especially Xingyiquan).

For example, you brought up "falling step." Dempsy is talking about allowing gravity to use the weight of the body (the concept of "sung/chen" or relax and sink in Chinese) to generate force with the whole body en mass ("zheng jing" or whole body power in Chinese). The commonalities go on and on.

You mentioned Classical Western martial arts. If you like sophisticated theory and practice, you should research Renaissance martial manuals. Men like Marozzo and Thibault took martial theory and training to a whole new level.

PaulH
12-06-2004, 06:43 PM
I like what Harold said on the link:

"I must confess I suspected a joke. But if it is the truth that you are honest and dedicated in your striving for the purest goals: why do you talk about it, for is it not written, that the wise man is silent and works by his great presence alone? This surely would be the ultimate level of achievement! "

Me think there is a deep mysterious meaning in it! =)

yellowpikachu
12-06-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

I usually have a problem of cold hands and feet when it's cold. What can I do to increase heat flow to these extreme ends? Thanks!


Pual,


There can be complex ---- a combination from watching you diet, learn about relaxation, and exercises. yes, relaxation can bring the temperature of the toes up.

Thus, I have heard,
One thing always help is abstain for sexual for about 3months while practicing yoga type of move which is streching and working with the spin , or practice a simple movement which name: water (kidney Qi) and fire (heart Qi) coupleng kung (kung as in kungfu. this kung can help heal hypetention, heart problem, and stroke)

. . as it called in the past chinese kungfu training as hundred days rebuild the foundation.

yellowpikachu
12-06-2004, 08:42 PM
IMHO. JUST IMHO


Wang Xiangzhai is a good example. He was dead set against any type of "mystification" or the martial arts and the "feudal" hierarchy in student-teacher relationships. -------


Wang in one way is against "mystification" for shake of "mystify", howevere , when it is the time needed to use the proper words he uses lots of classical terms such as Zen or Dao stuffs in his writing to describe his attainment which is too complex to be describe with daily words.

and he has build his theory on how to practice Yee Chuan too.







But he was limited to the terminology of his time, and practical as his teachings were, they are still full of seemingly abstruse concepts that are not easily understood;--------



Wang didnot have limitation in the terminology. because, there are lots of well define internal cultivation vocabs at his time when the Chinese is still literate with the Classical Chinese. Check out his writing. as for abstruse concepts, quantum physics got alots too if one doesnt have a solid fundamental understanding of what is what.

on the other hand, it is always easy to blame the words when one doesnt understand the concept due to one's lack of experience. and, it is also always easy to use words one has not idea about to "mystify" things to make it "deeeepppppp".






the problem is amplified when his articles are translated into English. For example, how you define "qi" will make all the difference as to whether it is a useful concept or major hinderance for martial arts training. ----------


The problem is not about translation. But lay in trying to describe things where one has no attaiment or experience.

The definition of Qi is clear in Classical Chinese. The problem is those who has no idea what it means by Qi tries to define Qi. IMHO.





Interestingly enough, if you translate Dempsy's terminology into Chinese martial terminology, you'd come up with bsically the same concepts used in the Chinese IMA (especially Xingyiquan). ------


Might not be so. IMHO




For example, you brought up "falling step." Dempsy is talking about allowing gravity to use the weight of the body (the concept of "sung/chen" or relax and sink in Chinese) to generate force with the whole body en mass ("zheng jing" or whole body power in Chinese). The commonalities go on and on. --------


IMHO.

No absolutely NoT.

Falling Step is NOT the same with the concept of "sung/chen" or relax and sink in Chinese) to generate force with the whole body en mass ("zheng jing" or whole body power in Chinese).

furthermore, Zheng Jing or whole body power is also not ONLY about allowing gravity to use the weight of the body.


There are full of people who did relax and sink for Taiji....but how many of these people have a Zheng Jing and capable of Fajing? or throw a heavy strike like boxer?


There are similarty and different between Dempsy and Yee Chuan/TaiJi/XingYee/Wing Chun power generation. and that have to be watch out carefully. as it said,

True, is it really True?
False, is it really False?
Mis a faction of inch will get lost a thousand miles.







If you like sophisticated theory and practice, you should research Renaissance martial manuals. Men like Marozzo and Thibault took martial theory and training to a whole new level. ---------


IMHO,
Thus I have heard, If some one release the information about the theory and process about generating inch power today. One will see how beautiful this pice of art even in today's SSC or GTO standard. How is those old Chinese ancestors know so much even in today's Science and Technology standard?


In addition, I argue about WCK is not from Shao Lin technically, There are traced in power generation which can be traced. when things go internal, lots of things can be traced even better. Why White Crane is not Wing Chun. Why Hakka is not Wing Chun. Why Hung Gar is not Wing Chun. Why Shao Lin is not Wing Chun. Why southern praying mantis is not Wing Chun.......etc all have a signature when it gets into the internal mechanics realms there are more then just function, shape, and physical. Thus, it makes it very difficult to copy SLT to create those Equavelent/I have it too or call some other stuffs older then SLT. There are signature and signatures to be unlocked. That is the beauty of the internal mechenics of WCK hiding within SLT.

IMHHHHHHo

Just some thoughs.

jonp
12-07-2004, 05:49 AM
For example, you brought up "falling step." Dempsy is talking about allowing gravity to use the weight of the body (the concept of "sung/chen" or relax and sink in Chinese) to generate force with the whole body en mass ("zheng jing" or whole body power in Chinese). The commonalities go on and on.

No absolutely NoT.

Falling Step is NOT the same with the concept of "sung/chen" or relax and sink in Chinese) to generate force with the whole body en mass ("zheng jing" or whole body power in Chinese).

furthermore, Zheng Jing or whole body power is also not ONLY about allowing gravity to use the weight of the body.

hi hendrik,

could you possibly elaborate here? you seem quite certain that tim cartmell is incorrect in his comparison but surely his wealth of experience in training and applying TCMA gives him some credibility?

any insight into inch power you could give would also be greatly received!

peace

t_niehoff
12-07-2004, 06:34 AM
Hendrik's problem -- and he's not alone, most of the TCMAists would agree with Hendrik -- is that if he admits Cartmell is correct, then western boxing is an internal martial art! But "internal power" is something special, unique, secret, etc. ;)

Hendrik wrote:

Wang didnot have limitation in the terminology. because, there are lots of well define internal cultivation vocabs at his time when the Chinese is still literate with the Classical Chinese. Check out his writing. as for abstruse concepts, quantum physics got alots too if one doesnt have a solid fundamental understanding of what is what.

**Exactly -- he was limited *by* that very "internal cultivation vocabs" because that "vocab" was developed based by a culture that didn't understand many of the things we now do, like physics, biomechanics, anatomy, etc. He "explained" the best he could -- sort of like western physicians talking about "humours" and the "planets" affecting our health. These things are not helpful today; we know better. And whenever you understand something well, you can explain it more easily.

The problem is not about translation. But lay in trying to describe things where one has no attaiment or experience.

The definition of Qi is clear in Classical Chinese. The problem is those who has no idea what it means by Qi tries to define Qi. IMHO.

**There are many definitions of qi but the underlying problem is that it does not exist! Just as it would be difficult to explain mechanics on the basis of "humour"-theory of early western medicine. It's difficult to explain mechanics in terms of fictitious entities.

>>Interestingly enough, if you translate Dempsy's terminology into Chinese martial terminology, you'd come up with bsically the same concepts used in the Chinese IMA (especially Xingyiquan). --

Might not be so. IMHO

**Cartmell's main point IMO is that ancient chinese vocab didn't have the same terminology as the west, and that if one tried translate Dempsey into 1850 chinese, you'd end up sounding like the IMAs because they had no other way to describe these things (they #thought# in different terms). Perhaps the mechanics are the same, perhaps not.

Why White Crane is not Wing Chun. Why Hakka is not Wing Chun. Why Hung Gar is not Wing Chun. Why Shao Lin is not Wing Chun. Why southern praying mantis is not Wing Chun.......etc all have a signature when it gets into the internal mechanics realms there are more then just function, shape, and physical. Thus, it makes it very difficult to copy SLT to create those Equavelent/I have it too or call some other stuffs older then SLT. There are signature and signatures to be unlocked. That is the beauty of the internal mechenics of WCK hiding within SLT.

**They are all different because they have different approaches (strategic battleplans) to fighting, which require different tools that are used differently (even if they look similar), and those different tools *require* different mechanics to be effective. You can't use WCK tools with nonWCK body mechanics because the tools just won't work effectively; similarly, you can't box without boxing body mechanics because the tools just won't work effectively. The bodymechanics and the tools are two sides of the same coin; you can't separate them. And it is easy to tell when the body mechanics are off -- the tools won't work well when *genuinely* applying them (fighting, not drills).

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by jonp


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For example, you brought up "falling step." Dempsy is talking about allowing gravity to use the weight of the body (the concept of "sung/chen" or relax and sink in Chinese) to generate force with the whole body en mass ("zheng jing" or whole body power in Chinese). The commonalities go on and on.

No absolutely NoT.

Falling Step is NOT the same with the concept of "sung/chen" or relax and sink in Chinese) to generate force with the whole body en mass ("zheng jing" or whole body power in Chinese).

furthermore, Zheng Jing or whole body power is also not ONLY about allowing gravity to use the weight of the body.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





hi hendrik,

could you possibly elaborate here? you seem quite certain that tim cartmell is incorrect in his comparison but surely his wealth of experience in training and applying TCMA gives him some credibility?

any insight into inch power you could give would also be greatly received!

peace



1, The concept of "sung/chen" or relax and sink in Chinese Martial art are dealing with the theory and process of the "body" "content" conditioning/handling.

2, Zheng Jing is about Integration manual/holding of whole "body" force vectors.

3, Falling step on the other hand has a component of ACCELERATION which Sung/Chen Zheng dont address.


4, one can have sung/chen or Zheng Jing but if one doesnt have the theory and process of Fajing. One cant FaJing. because one doesnt know how to ACCELERATE and shoot out or emitting the power.

IE. how can one compare a process of Yoga leg strecth and a TKD kick?


I am certain and very certain because look at all those TaijI people who train TaiJi for health. They have sung/chen Zheng. but can they fajing? if they can fajing, do you think it is that easy for a WCner to do chain punch or lap da against them without being shock away? Look at the Boxer, do they have the Sung Chen Zheng ? but how did they do a jab with falling step?



Thus, I have heard (dont hold me to be able to know, I dont)

In another word, if one is standing and doing thier SLT with sung/chen Zheng without knowing the Accerelation, there is no way to fajing. because they are not train.

so, the SLT in that maner only doing conditioning. one must know the specific way of Acceleration for SLT. otherwise one cant fajing or do the Keng geng.

and too bad, the SLT Acceleration part comes with the TCM model of six components
internal/external, Ying/Yang medirians, Hollow/solid, Yee.

Thus, I have heard ONLY.



IMHHHHHOOOO

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 08:22 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by t_niehoff
1, Hendrik's problem -- and he's not alone, most of the TCMAists would agree with Hendrik -- is that if


2, he admits Cartmell is correct, then western boxing is an internal martial art!


3, But "internal power" is something special, unique, secret, etc. ;)

[/QUOTE



That certainly is A PROBLEM. but is it Hendrik's or is it others.


1, Cartmell is comparing Apple with Orange and that is forsure.

A theory /process of conditioning such as Sung/Chen Zeng cannot be A Theory /Process of Execution such as Falling Step.

That is forsure mis-leading and purely technical.


2, as I point out above, the Falling Step has a component of ACCELERATION which was no describe in the Sung/Chen and Zheng Jing. Thus, as anyone will not equate a yoga leg strecth with a TKD kick.


3, There are various of ways of condition body/breathing/mind. There are various of ways of Acceleration. There are various methodolgy which combine the above and form their applications execution. Those combination makes up to different Styles or uniqueness even in the CMA.

Thus, Hung Gar is not Taiji. Thus, Boxing is not Xing Yee.

everyone is using Gravity force but no they are not all the same because they use the Gravitation force in some similar and some different ways depend on how thier "body" is condiition...ect.





BTW. I am not a TCMaists, I am just a no body happen to hear lots of Thus I have heard. and it happens that I heard about what is Acceleration, condition, execution in some details long long time ago and had forgoten alots while getting older . I am just a listeners. Not a TCMaists because those TCMaists such as WXZ is decade of level advance beyond men in thier understanding. :D

BTW. there is no TCMaists too because , similar to Zen. There is only Zen practitioner and no Tradition Zen practitioner. :D




Just some thoughts. sure I can be deadly wrong that I have no idea what I am talking about. and that is my problem. :D:D
Hope that is the case. otherwise, those big short are having big problems of dont know what they are talking about and/or keep making thier most origin His-story.

Free Speech means everyone can have thier opinion. But is that opinion the Facts or speculation based on imagination?

A big question.

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by t_niehoff


1,
**There are many definitions of qi but the underlying problem is that it does not exist!

Just as it would be difficult to explain mechanics on the basis of "humour"-theory of early western medicine. It's difficult to explain mechanics in terms of fictitious entities.

2,
**Cartmell's main point IMO is that ancient chinese vocab didn't have the same terminology as the west, and that if one tried translate Dempsey into 1850 chinese, you'd end up sounding like the IMAs because they had no other way to describe these things (they #thought# in different terms).



1, ficticious? :D
Free speech and free opinion world that everyone's opinion is embrace.


2,
You believe his opinion and take his speculation to be REAL?

He seem cant even differentiate between a "Yoga Stretch and a TKD kick . an orange and an apple" (analogy ofcorse)
not to mention how much does he has on the understanding of the Chinese classical language in 1850. :D



just my 2 cents. See, I can be dead wrong and I dont know what I am talking about. But what if I am right then what is a factual left which is not about someone's imagination speculation to be discuss about? none?





Time to sing my song

Hello darkness, my old friend,
I¡¦ve come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left it¡¦s seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence........



And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon God they made.
And the sign flashed out it¡¦s warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, the words of the prophets



Report this post to a moderator

jonp
12-07-2004, 09:16 AM
You believe his opinion and take his speculation to be REAL?

He seem cant even differentiate between a "Yoga Stretch and a TKD kick . an orange and an apple" (analogy ofcorse)
not to mention he has no understanding of the Chinese classical language in 1850.



yea id say hes worth listening too, i cant tell for sure as ive never met the guy but the fact that he has studied various internal arts for years, teaches publicly and competes in competition regularly and successfully, and can describe clearly and plainly what he does tends to make me think he knows what hes talking about.

im not convinced that there is much more an individual can do to progress their knowledge in the martial arts than what tim seems to have done, im sceptical that there is some kind of hidden information on power delivery that very few people know. how did *they* discover it? training with the right people and hard work surely, exactly what this guy has done. if there is some kind of cosmic energy release that can only be passed through direct transmission then whup-de-doo good for the one dude who knows it and never uses it. its not in my realm of existence and never will be most likely so ill concetrate on more tangible goals, like refining my mechanics and applying them successfully.

FWIW

i saw his comparison of the dempsey falling step and sung/chen - zheng jing- more as a sharing of common ground than a direct representation, similar but not exact mechanics.

peace

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 09:51 AM
yea id say hes worth listening too, i cant tell for sure as ive never met the guy but the fact that he has studied various internal arts for years, teaches publicly and competes in competition regularly and successfully, and can describe clearly and plainly what he does tends to make me think he knows what hes talking about. ------


Sure, everyone is worth listening to because everyone has a pice of great work in them.

I critic the paraphase of Tim which Terence brought up but I dont deny the achivement of him. that has to be clear.

However, I wont take anyone is know it all. And always like to differentiate between speculation and report of observation.

Ei. One can be as succesfull as Kung Fu Stars Jacky Chan to be in the top of the world in his field, but that doesnt mean Jacky know all about Chinese Kung Fu or even Chinese Classical language.








im not convinced that there is much more an individual can do to progress their knowledge in the martial arts than what tim seems to have done, im sceptical that there is some kind of hidden information on power delivery that very few people know. ------


you are entitle to your sceptical and not convincing. that is totally acceptable.

However, Chinese Martial art as a whole is a deep and broad subject with hundreds of years of accumulation knowledge, investigating by tenth of thousands of Chinese. it is a huge pool of data.

There is no hidden information. But there are hidden processes in Chinese Martial art training. and that is forsure.

Ask a simple questions, how come kung fu lineage always passed within family? how come say Yang family can have 3 generations of great fighters? how come Chen family still keep the best art within the Chen family? IMHHHHOOO, there are things not shared openly.





how did *they* discover it? training with the right people and hard work surely, exactly what this guy has done. ------

they have deep insight into human's body/mind experience. they spend years and years in seclusion to cultivate "themself."




if there is some kind of cosmic energy release that can only be passed through direct transmission then whup-de-doo good for the one dude who knows it and never uses it. its not in my realm of existence and never will be most likely so ill concetrate on more tangible goals, like refining my mechanics and applying them successfully. -------



What I mention above is only about ACCELERATION.

Just ACCELRATION.

Just a common and basic components which shown the others making a false comparison.

Nothing about Cosmic energy or super nature at all. But you are entitle and free to express your speculations. IMHO.





i saw his comparison of the dempsey falling step and sung/chen - zheng jing- more as a sharing of common ground than a direct representation, similar but not exact mechanics.------


You are certianly entitle to your thinking.

however,


As I mention before, sung/chen Zheng Jing can not be make equivalent to Falling Step because Sung/Chen Zheng Jing doesnt not Adress ACCELERATION components which Falling Step does.

One can stand there with relax, sinking, and have a wholesome full body coordination. But that has no address about ACCERELATION needs to deliver power such as the Falling Step.

The Boxer doesnt have to do relax, sinking, ... similar to the taiji xing ye standing post... but the Boxer can deliever a great powerfull Jab with the falling step.

So, that is that simple.

This is also point to another problem of understanding Chinese Language. and also why I question about the speculation of 1850 chinese language big time.

1, Sung/Chen/ Zheng Jing has no mention anything about FA JIng or Fa Lik emitting Jing or emitting force.
2, Falling Step is a process of FaJing or FaLi.
3, so how is 1 similar to 2?

4, in addition, Fajing or Fali has hard way or soft elastic way or external way or internal way. There are tons of ways. So, how can one merge everything to be so general ? Things got to be very specific not muddy. And tittle and achievement doesnt indicate the mastering.

IE. Donald Trump can be a Billionaire and thinking he knows it all about making money. But he is not a economist, thus, has no idea about how the modelling of the economic in details.


Finally,
so, I hope that this post of mine is about I dis-agree on Tim's specific view but not against Tim the person. That has to be clear.

just another 2 cents.

PaulH
12-07-2004, 10:05 AM
There was a question raised in a magazine sometimes ago. It asks where is the value of your practice? I like Tim personally because he shared openly what little he knows. Such honesty and generosity is always a long cherished hallmark of excellence.

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by PaulH
There was a question raised in a magazine sometimes ago. It asks where is the value of your practice? I like Tim personally because he shared openly what little he knows. Such honesty and generosity is always a long cherished hallmark of excellence.


Pual,

That is certainly True and needs to be appreciated highly.

However, it is also a truth that not because I appreciate what my sifu taught me that I take all what he said as the Law of universal. But, instead look into it and see if it makes a basic sense. if not, then say no. strickly technical.


That is the Zen way as it said, rely to the facts not to the status of the people.

When it comes to investigation a topic.
Name or title do not equal to Internal mechenics.
Internal machenics has to build up from a clear understanding of its components.


As it said in WCK, learning has not junior or senior, who really master the subject is the teacher.


Just some thoughts.

PaulH
12-07-2004, 10:20 AM
So Hendrik, what can a person do to help a layman to understand clearly the necessary components of internal mechanics?

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by PaulH
So Hendrik, what can a person do to help a layman to understand clearly the necessary components of internal mechanics?


The big problem is one has to be in the stage of attainment to be able to understand what is going on.

Thus, having a sifu who has going throught the path is a must.



EI. if one is travel from I5 from SF to LA. only the one who has done that at night and in the morning knows how it is.
with thier experience, They can wrote about different stuffs in the road and it might not make sense to who never been there.

on the other way, a Map is a great stuff because it gives the direction but it still is not a replacement of experience.
not to mention, if one doesnt have a Map and promoting Just Drive it.



Internal Machenics have a few different core comonents. such as
dynamic structure (you sure can use those today's SSC or GTO term and in fact you can using the catagory of deadlift or squat... the ancient process still applied in today's language and fit well) , acceleration (muscular delay. momentum........), ....etc


When I read Terence's post and look at that comparison..ect doesnt include a basic components such as ACCELERATION. then one knows it is a problem and a real one.

One cannot just tell others whatever WCner does is an inch punch. One cannot just doing some Taiji to know a little about Relax and Sink to think that is internal. one must know the detail components to be able to do repetation and get result.

sometimes people can do it but they cannot teach because they either born with that or dont have a clear model of teaching or doesnt really aware of thier habit or ofcorse purposely dont want to teach.


IE: One has to know the map and know when to use low gear at which part of the map and make sure the tank is full in a certain part of I5 before arriving at LA to drive in I5. You can have a map but if your tank is empty before arriving into LA you have a big problem in those mountain. (you know what I mean. hahahah. that is not shown in the map, to fill up your tank)

IMHHO

PaulH
12-07-2004, 10:47 AM
This relies more or less a mind to mind method in the end, Hendrik. =)

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by PaulH
This relies more or less a mind to mind method in the end, Hendrik. =)

NOT TRUE on mind to mind method.


It is BODY , BREATHING, QI energy, and MIND Coaching and keep training. NO such thing as ZAP and you know it all. EVEN ZEN or CHAN doesnt go that ZAP way. one must raise one level gradually to make able to understand and go step by step.
Because it is a MULTI-Dimentional stuffs to be implement in a human.

Like a dance, like composing music... it is technology +art.



in addition,

Thus I have hear,
some might have great functional training and beable to fight great...etc. however, due to dont have a clear internal mechanic, one's art will raise to a stage and stop there.
Some might have great internal mechnics mastering but without functional training, so one cannot fight well.

all kinds of combinations..... complex human stuffs.

PaulH
12-07-2004, 11:01 AM
I means like Zen Buddhism it needs one who has the "experience" to initiate the other into the path. Without the guide, there is no sharing of such "experience".

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by PaulH
I means like Zen Buddhism it needs one who has the "experience" to initiate the other into the path. Without the guide, there is no sharing of such "experience".

Ofcause without a teacher who has travel the path and a proven PROCESS nothing works.

In the ancient chinese term, the teacher who has travel the path and having that proven process is called to have the LINEAGE. The one who train with the process is called the Inner Chambel or indoor student.

A Gate HOlder has to be not only having the lineage but also innovative and capable to adapt and modified the process to achieve the result. (now I am talking about the result Terence loves to mention :D But, result can be mention only after PROCESS:D)



But,

Zen is more complicated then that INITIATION.


It is a totally misconception on term such as the Heart passing Mouth teaching today.


see, only about 31 people get it under the 6th patriach Hui Neng's teaching. even today everyone tries to copy Hui Neng's Zen talk.

Yup, only about 31 of Hui Neng's related student get it for real while being coach by Hui Neng in the whole china. and I dont see a Hui Neng yet these day, so how is there are so many Sum Chuin HAo Sau ( heart passed and mouth teach one to one transmittion) works? I doubt.


So, internal art is similar to the Zen training. No guarentee. Thus, I have heard.


IMHO

PaulH
12-07-2004, 12:48 PM
I think it's safe to say that there is no such thing as a simple life! =)

PaulH
12-07-2004, 01:23 PM
"the SLT Acceleration part comes with the TCM model of six components
internal/external, Ying/Yang medirians, Hollow/solid, Yee."

If one start with the premise that SLT is intuitive training, how does one use the above info in the process?

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by PaulH
"the SLT Acceleration part comes with the TCM model of six components
internal/external, Ying/Yang medirians, Hollow/solid, Yee."

If one start with the premise that SLT is intuitive training, how does one use the above info in the process?



Certainly a great question for those grandmasters and lineage holders.

yellowpikachu
12-07-2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by PaulH
I think it's safe to say that there is no such thing as a simple life! =)


even you want to pick up a 1cent coin from ground, you need to bow down right? life isnt simple.

Stevo
12-08-2004, 12:42 AM
Recognising that one cent is worthless simplifies life a bit though.