View Full Version : Political/ cultural question for Asian People
jun_erh
11-30-2004, 03:43 PM
I go shopping for movies and kung fu stuff in Chinatown all the time, probably once a week. One thing I've noticed that kind of perplexes me is all the Mao stuff. Not that someone can't be a communist if they want, but didn't alot of the people in Chinatown leave China to come to the US because of communism?? and considering the overwelmingly negative effect the communists had on martial arts, isn't it sort of wrong to have them in the same place??
It's a source of nostalgia. People somtimes like to look back to the simpler and more "equal" times of Mao. Sure people were poor, but they were all equally poor.
Besides, most Chinese ( especially youth ) could care less about politics these days, and the Mao stuff can be "cool" in a perverted retro kind of way, since they have never grew up in that kind of enviroment.
My parents grew up with the little red book and everything, and my dad dislikes the communists, but even they like to reminiscent about the "good old times" sometimes.
Also, nobody really cares about "the overwelmingly negative effect the communists had on martial arts", most Chinese people are very ignorant of martial arts.
It's all part of Chinese culture now, like it or not.
omarthefish
11-30-2004, 04:06 PM
VAAASTLY fewer people left China because of communism.
They mostly left because they want to be rich Americans.
What I find wierd is that you have a Chinatown apparently full of mainland Chinese. Most Chinese emmigrate to American from either Taiwan or Hong Kong. Chinatown is usually filled with the ones from Hong Kong or at least Guangzhou. If the Mao stuff is selling I'm guessing more from Guangzhou. The Taiwanese seldom make it into Chinatown because they tend to be wealthier and more educated. Not so many economic refugees.
But I'll give you a little clue...you have eaten at least as much propoganda as they have. We both do it. Despite what you may have heard, Mao, to this day, is regarded as a hero and national savior on the Mainland. It's mainly Chinese from Taiwan who hate him. Mao Tze Dong is their George Washington. The poplar image of Mao is a friendly one. The basic perception is that he was down in the trenches with the troops and was a real man of the people. Chang OTOH was smeared as an Aristocrat and the popular image is of him at a table with all his underlings nervously sweating it out hoping not to offend him or make some mistake of ettiquette.
True or not, that's the image.
The other thing that I find interesting is that today's youth kind of chuckle if you bring up Mao but they tend to be real honest fans of Deng Xiao Ping. My GF likes to read his essays and transcriptions of his speeches and many Chinese have shared humourous anecdotes about him.
My Shifu wears a Mao pin on his lapel even though HIS Shifu fought for the KMT.
In China,
Liking Mao = patriotic.
Think less about the idea of "communism" and more about "new China" and it makes sense.
omarthefish
11-30-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by gfx
My parents grew up with the little red book and everything, and my dad dislikes the communists, but even they like to reminiscent about the "good old times" sometimes.
You posted while I was writing.
I just recently found out that many of the teachers at my school actually reminisce about the late 80's!?!
The irony...
They talk about how easy it was to get a job and support your family then (comparitively speaking) and the amount of economic optimism they had. Their country has continued to develop economically but prices have also risin and they general pessimism about govt. corruption seems to have gone up.
jun_erh
11-30-2004, 04:15 PM
omar- your sig explains your demented answer. talk about propaganda!
jun_erh
11-30-2004, 04:16 PM
The guy I know is from kwantung
omarthefish
11-30-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by jun_erh
omar- your sig explains your demented answer. talk about propaganda!
demented?
Are you implying that I have been brainwashed?
And if so, can you point to a specific view I have that seems to be the result of said brainwashing?
Is your survey sample of Chinese attitudes towards Mao any bigger than the one guy you know?
GeneChing
11-30-2004, 05:41 PM
The little red book is required reading for anyone seriously studying China so naturally I have one in my library. I even bought it in a used bookstore on Haight street in SF - more more left can you get, eh? ;) Anyway, my kid (age 5) loves that book. I'm not sure why. Maybe its the size, just right for little hands. Maybe it's the color. Red is so bright. Maybe it's the plastic cover reminicent of other children's books. Maybe its because the man in the picture is named Mao and that means "cat". My kid frequently takes that book off the shelf and moves it, so I find it lying around in odd places. Mao's ghost. It haunts all Chinese.
David Jamieson
11-30-2004, 07:23 PM
general concensus is:
These are the good old days.
:p
Originally posted by omarthefish
You posted while I was writing.
I just recently found out that many of the teachers at my school actually reminisce about the late 80's!?!
The irony...
They talk about how easy it was to get a job and support your family then (comparitively speaking) and the amount of economic optimism they had. Their country has continued to develop economically but prices have also risin and they general pessimism about govt. corruption seems to have gone up.
yeah, not to mention the decline of morals in society, and the rising unemployment and crime. The social class rift is quite large now as well. No wonder there's a lot more unhappy Chinese now than there were before.
Mao was from a farmer family.
Even today, Mao is supported by the farmers. Farmers constitute close to 90% of Chinese population.
The people in power in CCP are more pragmatists nowadays.
Deng was a pragmatist.
His famous saying is that Black cat, or white cat. As long as it catches a rat, it is a good cat.
Yes, economic boom brought alone corruptions at all levels.
The corruptions are at their worst.
Mao's mistakes in great leap forward and culture revolution are hushed by CCP.
Because, the support for Mao translated into the support for CCP.
Culture revolution was oked by Mao. The little red guards sort of ran out of controls. Even Mao may not turn them off.
Yes, in the beginning of PRC in the 50's, there are few crimes and few or non corruptions. Every body was geared to build a New China on a socialist path.
In other words, Mao is the right thing to believe as long as CCP is in power.
On the other hand;
There were more people died of hunger in Cultural revolution than those during the 8 years of Japanese invasion.
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NO one and no one else may whip so many people in one direction or the other EVER.
---
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Funny how even now, in a country like the US, Mao can still be a hot button....
Mao's biggest mistakes - The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.
The Great Leap...probably looked good on paper...but in practice...bringing industrialization and modern methods to a country of billions in a few short years...even with major support from a world bank this would be next to impossible.
The Cultural Revolution...probably began as a similar idea. How much control did Mao exert? How much was from the Gang of Four? How much was out of everyone's control and simply a country and revolution gone mad?
Had it not been for those two items (and they ARE BIG ONES), Mao would have been remembered as the greatest leader China had ever seen.
Whether or not you like him or approve of Communisim in the PRC, he managed to be a pain in the a$$ to the Japanese during WWII, managed to form a coalition between the workers, farmers, and military to defeat Chaing Kaishek...even though Chiang had the backing of a number of western powers, he managed to avoid the trap that Hong fell into 100 years earlier (Hong ran a successful revolution against the Qing emperor and managed to get a number of followers...however, he rushed to establish a government with him at the head BEFORE the fight was won and he allowed his second and third in command to establish themselves as rival rulers...), Mao managed to maintain control (often brutally...but maintained it was), he took China from a beaten starving country to a world power and an entity that even the US feared in a few short years, he managed to get aid and support from the USSR...and then go his own way when they disagreed, and he outlasted a large amount of US hatred to establish relations with the US in the early 1970's....
Sort of like the Harry Potter quote about "He did Great things...Terrible...but Great..."
I have a copy of Mao's little red book. Bought it as a joke in Beijing from a street vendor. He was sitting on the sidewalk, exemplifying CAPITALISM, and selling me a copy of the Mao bible...for a fee that was 3 times what it would go for in a state book store... I found the act of buying Mao's book and getting ripped off in a capitalist way on the streets of Mao's city too much of a good joke filled with irony to resist.
omarthefish
12-01-2004, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by GLW
[B]Funny how even now, in a country like the US, Mao can still be a hot button....
I had NO idea untill I started posting about him here and there on the boards and was FLAAAAMMMEEEEDDD for not even really saying anything pro-comunist. Just for not villifying him or even pointing out how he is viewed by the locals.
the only thing I have to comment on in your post besides that is that the cultural revolution I think was very different from teh great leap forward. The Great Leap Forward can be seen as a well intentioned PHENOMENAL ****up. But the Cultural Revolution, AFAIK...drifitng away from my area of expertses here...was more of a political play. It was the result of his need to stay the top dog. He stirred up the coutnry in large part to get rid of some political enemies. So I can kind of emphathize with what happened in the Great Leap but not the Cultural Revolution.
They are only very recently starting to teach these subjects in the schools here btw. Most people don't realize they are taught at all though.
I pretty much agree with your assessment of the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution.
Although, in a strict Marxist sense, a continual revolution or a cultural revolution every so many years to make sure that the revolution continues is very much in keeping with the Communist ideals. So, while I am sure that Mao was heavily motiviated to rid himself of some political enemies via the Cultural Revolution, I kind of think that he was also trying to be a good Chinese Marxist at the same time. I am not really sure how functional he was then. Given what was released about the Gang of Four during and after their trial, I wonder if Mao was not suffering from the onset of senile dementia that made this go haywire and allowed for the worst to happen.
He had a history of seeking and retaining power at any cost. But he also had a history of being a nationalist.
Funny...but Chou Enlai is about the only one of that 60's era group that is unanimously well thought of. Similarly, Deng is the only one in a LONG history (even back into the Dynasties in China) to lose and be purged and come back to lead.
omarthefish
12-01-2004, 03:38 PM
Funny thing about Deng. I tend to get Deng Xiao Ping and Zhou Enlai mixed up in my head. Last week I had a chance to read some transcriptions of some fo his speeches and I was startled how colloquial they were. He even uses a lot of those funny meaningless words that are often put at the end of sentences when you are being cute or talking with close friends like 'ma' 'ya' and 'ba'. （嘛， 呀，吧）
The one thing I would say though regarding you post is that the more I learn about China, the more skeptical I become of Mao having any true communist ideals at all. I think he was just being a good strategist. I suspect he spent more time studying the 36 strategies then the works of Marx. This is the part I get flamed for usually...suggesting that he was smart rather than crazy.
Definitely smart....
No one in the history of China (even Deng was not ousted...so he fits into this as well) has ever been overthrown and routed and then come back to regain power.
Chiang was planning on retaking China... that would have been a first - in 3000+ years.
Mao showed that he understood Sun Tzu. He drew the Japanese out and retreated...then cut their lines and used their weapons against them. When that war was over, he did the same thing with Chiang.
Mao understood that China's strength is in the people..their shear numbers...and so he got the farmers and workers behind him...he already had his part of the military....
Mao came in from the country to isolate the cities and cut them off. Classic strategy. If in retreat, he destroyed his goods rather than leave them for his enemy to find and use. When advancing, he adopted what his enemy left behind and used it.
His political opponents had a habit of dying. Some even having plane crashes...sort of like some democrats and their private planes nowadays :) just kidding...maybe...
He got the Kremlin to back him when he needed it...and then told them that they were NOT China...and he was....when he felt that China was strong enough and that the USSR was entagled enough in the Cold War....
He was smart.
I don't know how much of a Marxist he was. Strange thing about China is that no matter what the philosophy, when it gets to China, it gets modified to fit China and never the other way around...so was he or wasn't he....hard to tell.
This is a good thread.
However, there are too many things to cover.
I heard a lot of stories.
I also know a lot of people that survived GLF and CR.
Their personal stories brought a lot of tears.
I heard a lot of stories about the wars in the last century.
I agree with GLW's assessment.
Mao was very well versed in Chinese history.
He simply did what every dynasty building emperor in Chinese history did. That is eliminating political opponents to stay in power once the government/dynasty is founded.
The whole killing intellictuals to prevent criticisms of the new government is also very classical Chinese.
Mao admired the first emperor, you can find many of his actions mirrored him, except on a much larger scale.
omarthefish
12-02-2004, 02:46 AM
Did I drop acid or something this morning?
Because I could have sworn people were posting giving Mao credit for a certain kind of brilliance and acknowledging the he was a leader of historic proportions.
The last time I said anything like this I got a pm asking if it was true that I was a communist! :eek: wtf?
wierd......just...wierd.
scotty1
12-02-2004, 03:34 AM
**** pinko lefty. :D
Kristoffer
12-02-2004, 06:57 AM
nothing wrong with being a commie. the philosophy itself isn't bad, it's just that it's not compatible with western societys of today. Maybe in a thousand years...
good thread btw.
I tend to look at things in the context of events.
Good or bad will be judged by many and history.
To promote or demote is in the eyes of the beholder.
Communist roads ended in Russia and in the eastern block.
China is helping 3 only other like kind states to survive in the 21 century.
To help North Korea to turn to market economy and open up.
To help Vietnam.
To give assistance to Cuba.
The ideology is bankruptted.
The name or the skin is still socialist state.
The heart and soul are market economy/capitalism.
All the government owned factories are privatized. The housing, the health care are all "liberated".
What is next?
Deng called that we postpone the socialist economy indefinately.
We are embarking on a socialist path/road with "Chinese" character.
And we insist on that. We also insist on the rule and lead by CCP. It is in the consitution.
David Jamieson
12-02-2004, 09:23 AM
China is hardly helping North Korea. North Korea is Chinas mangy rabid dog changed up n the back yard.
China isn't doing squat for the millions who starve there.
Vietnam is reparing oin its own with help from wherever it comes, I would give China credit here either.
and they definitely have little or nothing to do with cuba outside of perhaps one or two trade agreements, maybe.
mao was a megalomaniac. He had a warped perception of the world because he himself was a warped individual.
People who chase after leaders are empty shells who cannot think for themselves. China fell victim to this in teh Cultural revolution where people would turn on their neighbours and everyone towed teh line like an automaton in fear of punishmenbt if anything should be one inch out of line with what they thought was expected of them.
power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. THis is why communism in practice doesn't work. It becomes a dictatorship and the practice is totalitarianism and bordering on fascism in many repects, but I don't think China was ever "by the book" communist. Neither was russia. IN fact, Cuba is the closest working model to communism that ever came into existance.
In the end I see it this way, There is a large fan segment from the star wars crowd who like darth vader and where him on a shirt or a badge.
You guys really aren't giving props to Mao are you? Cause he's yet another dead ass nutcase in a pile of dead ass nutcases from that era.
Nostalgia is for old men who cannot do anything worthwhile anymore, so they pine for a time when they could've made a difference.
jun_erh
12-02-2004, 04:18 PM
omar- are you asian? Also, are you originally from Canada? just a hunch.
What about all the other great leaders and heroes in China's history?
The reason I started this thread was also because I'm thinking about how this may relate to muslims in the US and the perplexing aquiescense to stuff (jihadis, dictators) it would appear they were glad to leave. Also, are there elements of communism in Chinatown? via the (chinses)mafia?
omarthefish
12-02-2004, 07:11 PM
Nope.
I'm jewish....just like Marx.
Gung Lek,
Just a gentle reminder that democracies are not immune to becoming facist, totalitarian or dictatorships. Pre-war Germany was a republic after all.
People in China town supported Dr. Sun Yet Sen in general.
In the last 20 years, there are more mainlanders settling in legally or illegally.
There may be some supporting Mao in the new crowd.
But younger generations of Chinese hardly remembered Mao. He maybe only exist in the textbooks.
Of coures Mao is on Chinese money and protraits on public places.
Especially on the top of the gate in front of Tian An Men square.
The agenda of CCP is to pursue economic growth.
And spread the boom from the coastal cities westward.
The new economic Great Walls from the coast all the way to the Gobi desert.
The future of China and CCP depend on it.
Free elections are allowed on the very local levels.
Not on the county or Hsieng level yet. Because CCP is afraid to be outvoted at higher levels of governments.
When Russia and associated states buried communism in 1989.
CCP was afraid of the peaceful change spreading eastward from Moscow.
They called the trend "Su Tong Puo".
Soviet East Waves.
They knew and were not saying out loud.
It is actually Japan/US trends from the east and going to the west.
The currents of changes are from the east coastal areas moving westward inland.
In short;
How to move forward economically and fight corruptions are on the agenda of government.
Ideology is downplayed since the late 1970's.
There is no stopping in the wind of change.
More pragma and very little dogma.
For the time being, Adam Smiths has more followers than Karl Marx.
omarthefish
12-03-2004, 01:59 AM
Carefull there....you talking to yourself again....
Agreed.
I was posting some general observations.
And not really talking to anyone.
There are just some comments.
:D
My point is:
Chinese people are practical in terms of politics.
The deals that lose money, no one will do it.
The deals that make money, there will be people doing it even though at the risk of losing their heads.
There are more money (Adam Smiths) followers that dogma (Mao) followers.
Disillusionments so to speak.
We need rice or money.
Dogma is good on paper but not edible.
China's policy is a policy of solving the problems of rice eating (economic).
Cheers.
:D
jun_erh
12-03-2004, 11:09 AM
china is Marx on top and Adam Smith all the way down.
Christopher M
12-05-2004, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by Kristoffer
nothing wrong with being a commie. the philosophy itself isn't bad
No, the philosophy itself is bad. It's just one step in man's investigation of economic and social principles -- but we've taken many steps since. It's founded on the labor theory of value, for goodness sake.
Christopher M
12-05-2004, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by GLW
I have a copy of Mao's little red book. Bought it as a joke in Beijing from a street vendor. He was sitting on the sidewalk, exemplifying CAPITALISM, and selling me a copy of the Mao bible...
For Marxists, I think capitalism means the dictatorship of the bourgeois, and a capitalist is someone who owns the means of production. Do sidewalk vendors exemplify this? :confused:
Although, in a strict Marxist sense, a continual revolution or a cultural revolution every so many years to make sure that the revolution continues is very much in keeping with the Communist ideals.
FWIW, this is an idea of Trotsky's which deviates from Marx's position.
jun_erh
12-05-2004, 06:29 AM
the street vendor is a capitalist
Christopher M
12-05-2004, 06:54 AM
How so? Do you mean by the Marxist meaning or by the (classical) liberal meaning? Or some other meaning?
omarthefish
12-05-2004, 07:14 AM
Well...that's a complicated question.
In the case of the little red book it is probably an example of capitalism but the vendor him self is not a capitalist as he does not himself own the means to produce the book. He buys them cheap from a producer and then sells them on the free market. The factory that produces the books today for sale to tourists however was most likely privately owned and probably does qualify as a capitalist enterprise.
Many street vendors however, are selling their own goods. Wether it's fruit, handcrafts or chachkies. I'm not sure how to categorize them but they are not government regulated and they work for themselves for the most part.
Judging by the fact that the same crappy souveniers can be found in every shop though I'd wager that the vendors with their actualy little stores in the tourist areas are following the model of the small businessman but with vastly less regulation than exists in the states. There is a pile of red tape to open a place but after that they pretty much are on their own. They set prices as they see fit and I don't think there's a labor board to deal with or any kind of complicated scheme to regulate they way they pay their employees.
Come to think of it...reflecting on this statement:
For Marxists, I think capitalism means the dictatorship of the bourgeois, and a capitalist is someone who owns the means of production. Do sidewalk vendors exemplify this?
...I'd have to say that the vendors don't but China does. Human rights in China are pretty much dictated by financial rsources. There are no real protections for the workers and Employers frequently have draconian clauses in their contracts like penalties equal to 6 months pay for quitting but preserving their own right to fire with no real reason and are not even bound to pay any wages outstanding. Legally they are supposed to but there are no real mechanism in place to enforce it unless you are from the monied class.
America seems downright socialist compared to China.
Christopher M
12-05-2004, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by omarthefish
<upon> reflecting on this statement I'd have to say <in agreement> that the vendors don't <exemplify capitalism>
Ok!
Street vendors may be considered as entrepreneurship.
Ren Ming Bi has pent up pressure to rise in value.
The Chinese government will announce the "regulated" appreciation values of RMB early next year.
Guess what. A lot of hot money including mostly from US are there.
Canada and European countries have more socialist programs.
US may have more entrepreneurship.
Such as several private companies launched manned space objects without government funds.
All the military and space contracts are awarded to privately own companies and factories and not state own.
State own enterprises tend to lose money or cost more in projects.
So US has a lot of entrepreneurs and some socialist programs.
jun_erh
12-05-2004, 08:24 AM
there are street vendors in Cuba and they are capitalists
Entrepeneurship in China has a long history.
The famous story is about the merchant Jia Yu during the Warring States period 2400 years ago.
He stopped a war by giving cows to an advancing Army and made the general think twice and withdraw the troops.
He travelled among 7 states and traded. He would get animal skins for soldier's armors, precious stones, horses, salts, etc from the states that have plenty to where they are needed.
He also made friends with kings and generals.
He once bought and rescued Sun Tzu with 1 horse and a women.
His merchant wagons were long. And nobody dared to rob him because of his connections.
He sold rice to Wu Guo's Army when they occupied Yin Cheng the capital of Zhu Guo.
Sun Tzu used fewer than 30,000 troops defeated Zhu Guo's 90,000 troops in several segments.
These are all well known stories of the time.
Christopher M
12-05-2004, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by jun_erh
there are street vendors in Cuba and they are capitalists
It still seems odd to use the word in this fashion. According to the Marxist meaning, to call someone a capitalist is to indicate that they endorse the dictatorship of the bourgeois. Is that what you're saying?
David Jamieson
12-05-2004, 09:07 AM
Is that what you're saying?
what are "you" saying. Oh positionless dodger on the fence?
Christopher M
12-05-2004, 09:12 AM
I'm saying that it seems odd to use the word in this fashion and that according to the Marxist meaning, to call someone a capitalist is to indicate that they endorse the dictatorship of the bourgeois.
I can see how you may have missed that in my post, sorry for the ambiguity.
jun_erh
12-05-2004, 09:12 AM
I wouldn't use marx's definition of anything
Christopher M
12-05-2004, 09:13 AM
Ok. What sense are you using the word in, then?
jun_erh
12-05-2004, 09:21 AM
"An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market. "
Christopher M
12-05-2004, 09:32 AM
Yes, this is the Marxist sense: where capitalism, or the dictatorship of the bourgeois, is the socioeconomic structure wherein one class, the bourgeois, own the means of production and the other class, the proletariat, are bound to it. Thus, a capitalist is someone who endorses capitalism, in this sense -- someone who endorses the dictatorship of the bourgeois as just described.
'There are street vendors in Cuba and they endorse the dictatorship of the bourgeois' seems like an odd remark.
jun_erh
12-05-2004, 09:52 AM
it shouldn't. the vendor can choose which dictator he wants (product), has no dictatorial reponsabilities or liabilities, and can earn based on his own independent entrepenorial skill with the product: little red book or dumb cuban suvenir. Whereau under marx (who never had a job in his life and trated his OWN servants like garbage) the vendor sells what the society says he should sell, is as much responsible for success or failure as anoyone throughout the operation, and earns based on perceived need.
Buddy
12-05-2004, 10:10 AM
I thought Gang of Four was a great band.
unkokusai
12-05-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by omarthefish
Is your survey sample of Chinese attitudes towards Mao any bigger than the one guy you know?
Same 'ol song from the one trick pony
Christopher M
12-05-2004, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by jun_erh
it shouldn't.
It shouldn't seem odd, or that isn't what you mean?
the vendor can choose which dictator he wants...
I think you're fixating on the word 'dictatorship' too much in the technical term 'dictatorship of the bourgeois', which just refers to the "capitalist" socioeconomic structure described above. The political idea of 'dictatorship' as such is different. Marx's point with that nomenclature was to highlight that the socioeconomic power was centered upon the bourgeois -- this is juxtaposed against the dictatorship of the proletariat, aka socialism, where the socioeconomic power is centered on the proletariat.
sayloc
12-05-2004, 03:52 PM
Sifus are usually very controlling.
Comunist governments are very controlling.
Think there may be a connection?
We may be living our own little brand of communism here in the Chinese MA world!
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