On Teaching- the first lesson

[AndrewS]

After a hiatus from teaching, I'm getting things rolling again, and had, for the first time in a while, a person with no exposure to Wing Chun by to train last night.

In the course of about an hour and a half we went from:

the basic stance (character two), with physical examples of the use of adduction to :

basic utilization of the torso to put force in the ground from the stance to:

the turn with stance testing to:

stepping forward with the structure/ground line developed at first, projecting the structure to the arms to:

the groove for moving the arms using the ground in front of the body (i.e. the punch) to:

maintaining the locked in structure in the arms to allow one to shift and punch (tan dar) to:

the first two sets of form, each piece based on the mechanics shown before to:

finish with a light 'live' drill using the stance to shut down a double neck tie (plum).

I figure next time we'll review, and start on moving the structure explosively (punching), and work some basic footwork with some live work on knee splits and low kicks, as well as basic mount escapes.

Just some grist for the mill,

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

Not bad for just one class.

[RedJunkRebel]

Good class. I like how you started the new student out with the basic stance. IMO, its the most important thing in Wing Chun and should be taught first.

[sihing]

In our kwoon our "Introductory" lesson consists of the introduction of the Neutral Stance(basic stance) and how this is the foundation for the other stances to which there are four total (left side neutral, right side neutral, front stance, and neutral stance). From there I go onto the basic punch and give 4 or 5 reasons why it is very efficient and effective. Then onto the Man/Wu sao structure, and then one technique, usually the Bil Sao and side step front kick combination, which can be applied to almost anything coming towards the head or upper gate. Usually I start them off using it against the straight punch, slowly showing the advantages it can give you if applied correctly with good structure in form and timing, then showing how it applies to a wrist/elbow/shoulder grab, rear hook, round kick, etc, reinforcing the concept of simiplicity prevelant throughout the art... After that I usually demonstrate a little Mok Jong for them and show them the weapons of WC then inform them of our pricing plans and answer all their questions. We have a good sign up rate using this method and it demonstrates to the people with no MA background, and also those with MA experience, how effective WC is and of course what the school has to offer them. This process usually lasts 45 minutes or so but two days ago I had one that lasted 1 1/2 hrs, too much detail on my part sometimes, but I tend to get into it and enjoy this part of the whole experience.

James

[Tom Kagan]

What, no knife work? :D


Unless you have an Olympic caliber athlete in front of you, I suspect your hiatus has allowed the feeling of 'not having enough time so I'll cram in as much as possible' to boil over.

How about taking one or two live drills (perhaps those you mentioned) and figuring out how to make them interesting enough and enjoyable to last, say, three weeks of classes or so? In the long run, both you and your student might be better off this way if you are attempting to shorten the learning cycle (in my opinion). Of course, your mileage may vary.

[captain]

andrew,get the andy armitage book on teaching.none ma ,but a good way to learn how to teach different types of learners.

Russ

[Kevin Bell]

Hey Andrew,

I believe teaching is a skill in itself not only re -affirming what one's already learnt but learning how to communicate and deal with different people with different paces of learning. Good stuff

Did you get a chance to look at that routine? If so dont worry about putting it up here dont want to get away from the point of this thread.

Cheers
Kev

[AndrewS]

Tom,

I actually made a serious effort to rein myself in, in an attempt to avoid that phenomenon. I think what I'm going to do is build in another stance-based live drill each session, slowly integrating, while doing very hands-on refinement of mechanics. The thing I want to stress is going from a pure mechanics cooperative drill, to a simple live application drill, to a piece of form, so that each piece of form is taught after getting the body feel you would have in actual application, using the form to consolidate what is learned, rather than just going for choreography.

Russ,

I'll check it out.

Kevin,

I've been meaning to e-mail you about that. I'll try to send something out tonight.

Later,

Andrew

[old jong]

It will vary depending on the new student's learning habilities but it usually follows that model:

1) YGKYM and Chor ma
2)The basic punch from the stance
3)Pak sau with an explaination of the center line theory and triangle
4)Basic Tor Ma stepping/combined with Punching
5)Dan Chi Sau overview with explainations about Fok Sau and sticking

That's usually enough for one day. I advise them to practice at home everyday and to contact me anytimes if they have any problem with the material.

BTW,I like to teach as fast as the students are capable of learning but I can go as slow as needed if necessary!...;)

[AndrewS]

OJ,

I've made a point of minimizing arm work for the first few months of training since I started teaching a decade ago. I've found this approach, while not commercial, tends to hammer the important stuff early, and make for good lasting quality in those who've gone through it.

FWIW,

Andrew

[old jong]

I understand what you say Andrew. I personaly do my best to ingrain the foundations in new students and have them to understand what they are doing.I Will let them play with their class mates sooner but I am on their back the second their YGKYM is not up to my tastes.So far,many of my students have a very good rooting developped but some are more lazy.I tend to respect their own individual learning pace.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by old jong
It will vary depending on the new student's learning habilities but it usually follows that model:

1) YGKYM and Chor ma
2)The basic punch from the stance
3)Pak sau with an explaination of the center line theory and triangle
4)Basic Tor Ma stepping/combined with Punching
5)Dan Chi Sau overview with explainations about Fok Sau and sticking

That's usually enough for one day. I advise them to practice at home everyday and to contact me anytimes if they have any problem with the material.

BTW,I like to teach as fast as the students are capable of learning but I can go as slow as needed if necessary!...;)

You got it right, that's pretty much what I do, anything more or other that that, will be too much. real slow is the way.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

I firmly believe that Wing Chun should be taught very slow!...They used to do that in the old days;having students standing in YGKYM for months,slowly extending their fook and bringing back their wu.But...Who would tolerate this today?...Today,students want it all fast! They will disappear from your schools like puffs of smokes if you would dare to teach them the old way.This is why JKD was invented IMO!...;) :D
So,we have to adjust and provides with more material in less times at the risk of having them developp a superficial Wing Chun.
There are very few real disciples of the art anymore!...;) We have to deal with custommers now!...:D

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
You got it right, that's pretty much what I do, anything more or other that that, will be too much. real slow is the way.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)
Ali-
I think your post relates to my last one a lot. But what we do today is still really fast compared to the old days!

[SAAMAG]

Generally speaking, my first lessons are strictly posture and stances/footwork, with a little introduction into the chung kuen. and the first section of SLT. But I inform them that without the foundation of the posture/stucture and stances, none of the rest will work.

Once that is grasped for the most part, then we move more into the mechanics of the hands...punches, palms, single and double arm movements, drills, CK, more drills, chi sau, sparring, etc...etc..etc..

[Ultimatewingchun]

I do similar things to AndrewS - but I do it in reverse.

First lesson starts with learning the first section of SLT (but no more than about 10-15 minutes)...then three very basic stances and basic stepping (completely neutral stance - neutral side (body) stance - front stance...followed by a basic half-step forward from the front stance)...the vertical punch...with some multiple roll (chain) punching...and a basic front kick that comes out of the neutral side stance.

But all the while explaining (especially during the initial SLT) some of the principles of the system (ie.- the centerline, the six gates, the principle of always wanting to use two hands at the same time, etc.)...

then I show some pak sao...then a little pak da (from the neutral stance)...then an actual application of pak da against someone throwing a (very slow) straight punch from a distance - and the new student has to respond with some basic footwork as they step forward from the neutral side stance and counter with pak da.

So it's kind of the reverse of Andrew's approach - but at the end of the day (class)...perhaps it's a similar result:

they've learned how to use at least one technique in a somewhat realistic setting.

[AndrewS]

Hey Victor,

I think the interesting thing I've stumbled across is reverse engineering the form, working mechanics and application first, in order to show context.

I don't buy into teaching slowly or quickly- neither to me is a useful idea. The teaching model I'm looking for is a combination of methods- giving people room to learn on their own in safe application environments of live drilling, ramping contact and variability up and down, while also teaching extremely thoroughly, point by point, constantly building on and reviewing prior material (a learning pattern intrinsic to the system and one of the truly outstanding points of Wing Chun).

Anyway, I'm curious what this guy's form is going to look like when he's through it in a few month. While how a form looks is of little merit, it will be interesting to see the difference between him and someone taught from the choreographed standpoint.

Later,

Andrew

[AndrewS]

Ck,

that seems to be a useful approach to hook people in- give them some application and experience fast in order to give them context, so that they can understand the good stuff about Wing Chun.

Did you find yourself unlearning a lot of mechanics after that year or did your teacher actively guide you away from things that grossly contradicted what you were headed to (and if so, how)?

Andrew

[YongChun]

In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau.

In my first lesson from Dr. G.K. Khoe in the Wang Kiu lineage I learned the SLT, the CK and part of the BJ, single sticking hands, rolling hands, Pak sau and Lap sau drills, stepping and turning and various drills. The class was 4 to 5 hours long. I missed the first three months and so just had to jump in the middle of where they were at. There were only ten students. The teacher was trying to give a crash course to cover the entire system in 7 months because he was only in Vancouver for a year and then had to go back to Holland to return two years later. After that he turned the curriculum into a three year program.

In the first lesson I usually play with the student, demonstrate to them the form and explain the key ideas. Then I show them how to stand and punch and to defend against that. When they leave they understand the importance of being rooted and also to be mobile, the importance of the centerline theory, the idea of relaxation, the idea of economy of motion, the straight line concept, the concept of simultaneous attack and defense and the whole feel of it in action. I show the student how his natural fighting actions can be improved in little details everywhere. So after that they can evaluate and compare against anything else they know and decide to take up this art or go somewhere else.

Ray

[Ultimatewingchun]

"In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau." (YongChun)


This kind of thing has no place in today's world, imo.

Total waste of the student's time and money.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau." (YongChun)


This kind of thing has no place in today's world, imo.

Total waste of the student's time and money.


IMO,students nowadays want (or need?) to be entertained or they will simply vanish away,as I said earlier.There were benefits with that slow "classical" approach. The foundations were built before the roof and everything was solid before going to the next item.But times change! We have to give them what they want and they want more and faster. This is why I ask my students to do some serious stance practice as homeworks.I used to watch a film or hockey game while standing in YGKYM when I was beginning in Wing Chun *(1),so I ask them to at least try to do something about it.Believe me,I can easily tell witch of my guys do it or not!...IMO,some of the most boring stuff about Wing Chun is most important.

*(1) It is not recommended to practice SLT while having the mind occupied at something else. (IMO)

[AndrewS]

A couple of notes on this:

My argument with the 'classical' approach is that it lacks context for the student and has no empiric validation obviously inherent to it. Lots of people stand in stance for ages; few have a 'root' worth a d*mn.

'Root' is an attribute well worth developing, but standing around hoping it will come is definitely a waste of time. Partner work with direct feedback and increasing pressure builds proper mechanics far faster and more consistantly than just standing. This is my experience.

CK- what qi gong did you learn? Are you learning part of Michael Tse's Yi Chuan/ Wing Chun curriculum? What do you mean by principles of good body mechanics?

Ray- I think I fundamentally disagree with your approach. I hate giving the 'sampler/survery/demo' lesson to people fresh off the street. I find it wastes everyone's time (like the class if there are other people there), puts you in a demeaning 'show and tell' position, and generally doesn't work. My take is that active participation from moment one is the best approach, that way a prospective student can find out if they like doing the work- training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I hate giving the 'sampler/survery/demo' lesson to people fresh off the street. I find it wastes everyone's time (like the class if there are other people there), puts you in a demeaning 'show and tell' position, and generally doesn't work. My take is that active participation from moment one is the best approach, that way a prospective student can find out if they like doing the work- training." (AndrewS)

I agree with this.

As long as every class is covering something (and hopefully more than just 1 or 2 things) that resemble reality fighting scenarios...then someone watching can get something of a clear picture of what you're offering. But if you're just doing forms, footwork drills, punching/kicking into the air, some dan chi sao - or even some double arm chi sao...

but without a "real-fight" context applied to any of it...so that a visitor can say to himself...'okay - I see how that could work in a real fight situation'...

then he's left to try and make those connections to reality fighting WITHIN HIS OWN MIND...which is too much to ask.

So in this manner you don't have to try and change the class to the demo/sampler thing just because a visitor walked in to watch.

He may not get the "complete overview" of the system the way I just described it (as opposed to the sampler/demo business)...but he won't need one.

He's seen SOMETHING that got his attention.

[AndrewS]

CK,

'Root', 'peng', and Feldenkrais and Alexander technique are not the same thing.

[Sigman!Sigman!Sigman!] >:->>>

The body mechanics of Wing Chun are not the same as those of the neijia, though we have some commonalities. I ain't looking to MJ or Tyson to teach me Wing Chun, though I'll take some inspiration from their rather inspired motion.

Do the Guo Lao people do standing practice? 'Cos they have no Siu Nim Tao. What is the basis of your claim that you won't get far in Wing Chun without standing practice? How much standing practice? What sort? Is zhang zhuan sufficient to feed the Character 2 stance? San ti? Or does only character 2 work? Or single leg?

Victor,

among the many advantages of doing something immediately usable every class- it does help draw the students in!

Later,

Andrew

[YongChun]

Originally posted by AndrewS

Ray- I think I fundamentally disagree with your approach. I hate giving the 'sampler/survery/demo' lesson to people fresh off the street. I find it wastes everyone's time (like the class if there are other people there), puts you in a demeaning 'show and tell' position, and generally doesn't work. My take is that active participation from moment one is the best approach, that way a prospective student can find out if they like doing the work- training.

I always invite the student to come for a one hour free private where I do this. Then the students can see exactly what he is getting into, with no pressure, no one watching. Everyone I teach signed up that way. Sometimes these are people from other martial arts and sometimes the student knows absolutely nothing. So I find it always works. It's like a friendly hands on sale talk so they can see there is no BS. Then after that they can try a class.

Once a large police officer with a lot of martial arts background was watching the class at a rec centre where we were doing forms, some drills and some Chi sau. I noticed he was about to go so I quickly went to the door and asked him if he had any questions. He said no thank you, that was interesting. So I said can I show you something? He said Ok. So I said suppose I throw this straight punch at you -- I slowly throw a punch at him --- then how would you respond? He does something and then I counter and ask him to continue and we carry on for a few minutes. Then I explain some pointers to help him do whatever he did better. Then I say what these students were doing was this and that. So then this person signed up and stayed for 4 years. I asked him later what he thought when he was watching. He said it looked like garbage and that it couldn't be good for anything. During the 4 years he reported back all the time how he had used his Wing Chun on the job. He was working in the drug world.

So I like to show people here is what I can do. It's not that great but maybe better than what you have. So then they want to learn. If they are much better than me on the other hand, then they don't waste their time with me and can just go elsewhere right away.

I pretty well got all my students in that way except in some rec centre course that advertised and mentioned about Bruce Lee and a quick and economical way to learn self defense. In those classes I start off the same way as other have mentioned on this thread.

Ray