About the internal aspect of Wing Chun

[old jong]

Imo,this thing comes naturally with patient SLT practice and the notion of using no muscle in Chi Sau,drills and sparring*(1). It will come even if you don't think about it at all or even don't believe in it.It is not an esoteric phenomenon or a belief system.It is only the result of good Wing Chun practice.It just takes the times necessary to develop with each unique individual.
I am sure that many who can't even hear about this notion without getting pimples have it developed to some level without realising it!...;)

*(1) Proper way to interpret Wing Chun

[old jong]

Your thoughts?...;)

[SAAMAG]

It's extremely difficult to successfully spar/fight without using muscle. Not to say it can't be done, I've just never met or heard of anyone that could do it consistently, or even at all for that matter. I'd like to have faith and trust in the chi development, but not at the expense of foregoing body conditioning and development.

Of course I try at all times to stay soft and use sensetivity, aside from when Im actually making contact with an offensive strike or kick....but I'm still working on doing it consistently and will probably be doing this for the rest of my life....trying that is.

[PaulH]

My thoughts are just thoughts. Doing SLT often however will make you whole. And when you are whole and vibrant, your spirit will show you the way! =)

[old jong]

VanKuen- I should have said "using too much muscle"

Paul-You are getting better at this little game all the times!...;)

[PaulH]

Because you guys corrupted me! It's true that interacting with people here change my perspective quite a bit. =D

[anerlich]

OJ, I think you're right about it happening to some degree whether you believe in it or not.

OTOH, convincing yourself something is happening when it physically is not is deceiving yourself.

[old jong]

Originally posted by PaulH
Because you guys corrupted me! It's true that interacting with people here change my perspective quite a bit. =D

Come on!...You must be telling this to all hollistic peeps!...:D ;)

[PaulH]

As I'm a wolf by nature, so I find my zero point by talking like a sheep. The circle is now complete. I'm ready! =D

[old jong]

Originally posted by anerlich


OTOH, convincing yourself something is happening when it physically is not is deceiving yourself.

I guess many can present that tendency.I prefer to simply see this as a natural "mind/body" interaction resulting from proper practice.It is not a goal but a simple effect.

I could talk a lot about some of my hospital "clients" who show incredible strengh at moments of crisis.It seems that their absent logic system prevent them from thinking: "This is impossible so I will never be able to throw that big refregirator 20 feet away to the other side of the room" but some can actualy do it!...IMO,this is way beyong the normal capacities of most. I have seen many thing of the type. Adrenaline?...Maybe but adrenaline could only be only part of the equation. IMO

[old jong]

Originally posted by PaulH
As I'm a wolf by nature, so I find my zero point by talking like a sheep. The circle is now complete. I'm ready! =D

All have a little wolf and sheep,the sheep having a little wolf and the wolf a little sheep. This is Yin and Yang. The zero point represent the balance of all of this. ;)

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by old jong
I guess many can present that tendency.I prefer to simply see this as a natural "mind/body" interaction resulting from proper practice.It is not a goal but a simple effect.

I could talk a lot about some of my hospital "clients" who show incredible strengh at moments of crisis.It seems that their absent logic system prevent them from thinking: "This is impossible so I will never be able to throw that big refregirator 20 feet away to the other side of the room" but some can actualy do it!...IMO,this is way beyong the normal capacities of most. I have seen many thing of the type. Adrenaline?...Maybe but adrenaline could only be only part of the equation. IMO


Actually, you are observing an interruption of the golgi tendon organ reflex signal. This signal, which can be "transmitted" by every tendon in the body, will shutdown motor recruitment of the attached muscle before your body tears itself apart. The reflex signal can also recuit an opposing muscle in an effort to slow force output.

There is a tremendous "untapped reserve" of strength in every muscle of the body. Left unchecked, even some of the smallest muscles of the human body have enough strength and leverage to snap bones in half and certainly tear itself and/or the tendon right of its insertion point. As a consequence of this, mother nature set the default activation threshold of the golgi tendon organ very conservatively so that this could not happen except under the most extreme conditions.

There are ways to train which will raise the threshold of the golgi tendon organ significantly. There are also complex body mechanisms which can interrupt/interfere with the signal, some of which a person can learn to manipulate.

[old jong]

This is very interresting Tom! It is the first time I hear about this.It makes sense to me. It opens a lot of questions also.

If we consider (or simply accept ) the postulate that the physical body is animated by some "life force" could "internal" force phenomenons be in reality the sub counscious or even sometimes counscious (spelling?) control of this natural fonction?...

[anerlich]

Good post Tom.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by old jong
Your thoughts?...;)


There are "things" beyond thoughts.

such as,

a person will never taste the fresh mountain air and see the broad view at the peak , unless he put some effort to get up to the peak of the mountain.



That experience on the peak is about internal. the getting up there is about process. without the process one will not get to the peak.

and today, most people are busy commenting /denying about what/how it feels at the mountain peak staying on the feet of the mountain. and keep guessing and speculating.

Until one open one's eyes and heart execute the process . one will not see what happen about traving inward.



just some thoughts.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

My thoughts are with your thoughts! Are they beyond yet? =D

[Vajramusti]

Intriguing post Tom. What are some of the threshold changing exercises that you refer to?

Good post Hendrik on the importance of process in benefiting from inyternal works. If one uses only the boxers paradigm, one will be stuck at boxing-where skill devlopment slows down in the late twenties.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

My thoughts are with your thoughts! Are they beyond yet? =D

You live in LA, I live in the valley. Can our thoughts be the same? can the process of living the same ?

it is just you live in LA I live in the Valley. what is beyond?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Vajramusti


Good post Hendrik on the importance of process in benefiting from inyternal works. If one uses only the boxers paradigm, one will be stuck at boxing-where skill devlopment slows down in the late twenties.


Joy,

agree.

and the activation of Kundalini, the open and balancing of each chakras and its spining will never known until one experience them and have the capability.


That is Kung Fu or work on the process to gain the experience.
Kung fu = work on the process to gain the experience.

Beyond sensation, there is emotion, beyond emotion, there is thought, beyond thought, there is intuitive, beyond intuitive, all becomes energy field. layers and layers to be experience.

not too many thing can be done in the sole physical world.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

On the previous post, you mentioned there are somethings that are beyond thoughts and then you ended the post with "Just my thoughts". I just humor along! =)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

On the previous post, you mentioned there are somethings that are beyond thoughts and then you ended the post with "Just my thoughts". I just humor along! =)


I am going to flying beyond shang hai and rainbow in a few days. :D

[PaulH]

I know you're a busy business man now. It's nice to hear from you once in a while! =)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
I know you're a busy business man now. It's nice to hear from you once in a while! =)

Beyond sensation, there is emotion, beyond emotion, there is thought, beyond thought, there is intuitive, beyond intuitive, all becomes energy field. layers and layers to be experience.

you want to handle fear and pressure? go beyond the thoughts.
otherwise, it is not going to get too far no matter how much sparring ...

go beyond the thoughts and you will past the pressure test with atleast a B. see practice or put one in the spot is not going to make one better by defaut. one needs to know what to look and what to improve.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

If you have time, what is your process of overcoming thoughts and emotion when under duress? Thanks for the last pointer!

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

If you have time, what is your process of overcoming thoughts and emotion when under duress? Thanks for the last pointer!


you cant overcoming thoughts and emotion.... until you have develop a "monitoring" intuition beyond them. emotion cannot dissolve emotion. thoughts cannot reason and defeat another thoughts since they are in the same realm. how many times can you reason away to not look at the hot lady a second time?

yes, there is process in Chan inherit training which is be able to lead one to the over view "realization". When Oyama said Zen doesnt have to going through mental process , not look but everything shows, what he actually is describe the view he "knows" after he develop the "beyond intuition".
He has attaint some "stage" in Zen. This is very different compare with the usual New age thinking or book/sifu said/ancestors said qouting. Same with WXZ...ect. that stage exist. there is no fear because at that stage there is no thoughts but a clear intutive observation awareness.

it is similar to a computer waiting to grap its input signal and execute without any program running on it at all in the back ground. it just alert wait and execute.


Human always had a back ground program running, be it " this is easy to beat, this is abc who is tough, this is dangerous..... all kind of noise. " fear and pressure is this background mind chatter, and to the worst is if one get into these experience for a few times, then the emotion and physical body is HARD WIRE to react habitually to this type of undesire "noise"

So, I never believe the training of "oh just go fight". One must know what one is testing and how to go beyond to monitor and improve/disolve it. otherwise, one can do a reverse service to HARD WIRE all the negative habitual stuffs into the physical body. at that point, one is stuck.

As the Zen said, it is the door of no gate. the door has no gate because as I said before, thought cannot defeat other thought. they are equal in nature. Thus, if one trys to suppress one thought with other thought, that is struggle and not way out.

So, there is no gate no door within the same realm, one must go beyond. similar to cross over the castle via helicopter.


contradiction to lots of other's believe that SLT is to learn this or that or get this kiu sau or that tan sau..... SLT is about un HARD Wiring! Not about making something. but not making anything and pay attention to the process of the execution or the set of the moves.

Thus, when some master tell thier students do that Little idea set. he is telling them to just drop those mind chatter, but observe, aware ... and working with doing the UN HARD WIRE. But today, people carry things into the opposite directin of try to making something.


Certainly, one can keep making something and always there is inadequate. Thus, keep adding Aiki, Shao Lin, hung gar, karate, boxing, scientific, drangon shape, book reading Buddhist teaching...all short of stuffs.

While the ancestors way is simple. NOT making anything and nothing is in-adequate. Stay in that realm like a spider with a spreading radar screen to observe , flow, and balance what is imbalance or reset the habitutal without awareness or shut down the mind chatter. That is SLT. why need so many sets?


so why can one critic the heck out of some research of SLT , origine, root... ect that it goes in a wrong direction? because any one who look hard into SLT will know. it is about NOT CREATING anything, just be here and now and "enjoy" aware of the details of the process which will shown.

So who's SLT is the most origin? doesnt matter, the secret is in the NOt doing. any SLT set will work. Even LJ take apart and delete the SLT set, it still work. because the ancestors is much smatter and have much deep understanding and people today.

what is SLT what is not SLT? SLT is daily living with full awareness.
The is no internal aspect if one keep Making Things and the more one makes the more one feel in adequate. there is a new Cellphone model every 3 months. if you dont even know how to use a phone. that is trouble. a big one even if you keep buying all the new cell phone.

just my 2 cents. and I can be wrong. ok Take me as drunk in this airport computer bar if you dont like my post Paul.

until see you again!

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by old jong
Imo,this thing comes naturally with patient SLT practice and the notion of using no muscle in Chi Sau,drills and sparring*(1). It will come even if you don't think about it at all or even don't believe in it.It is not an esoteric phenomenon or a belief system.It is only the result of good Wing Chun practice.It just takes the times necessary to develop with each unique individual.
I am sure that many who can't even hear about this notion without getting pimples have it developed to some level without realising it!...;)

*(1) Proper way to interpret Wing Chun


That’s is so true Old Jong, but some people don’t have that kind of faith in their wing chun or themselves to develop that type of energy. You must develop three spiritual roots: (Will, Patience and Endurance). Some never develop these spiritual roots, hence
cutting their limitations short, running straight too applications without strong understanding of wing chun, or on the internal side of it. You will hear some people say things like: my sifu teaches and practices this way or that way, but their students never seen them demonstrate their powers and understanding of that concept (Iron Palm, Dim Mak, Chi Kung ect)., because that teacher does not practice patience, therefore the student does the same, and will never see that power develop among them, the same goes with their fighting skills as well. You will know when you have it because your own students will ask you; what the h*ll was that? That’s what they say when I hit them on the jaw line, and felt heat and impact in the small of their backs.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[PaulH]

Very eloquent post on the nature of SLT, Hendrik! SLT is intuitive wisdom. I find this in many other references also like in Mushashi's book of 5 rings. He referred to it as "The Spirit of thing" which guides him in his lifelong quest of a Samurai. Until we meet again and have a prosperous journey!

[old jong]

Hi Ali!... And,welcome back Hendrik!...

IMO,this is not an easy project,only because it is so easy and people want it to be complicated or difficult!...;)

As I begin to understand and get "some" faint results I realise that I wasted many years looking for something that should be simply present all the times.It is there in the simple absence of desire and in the law of movement.Movement brings response from a higher level than counscious thoughts.

The Wing Chun way is simple.Other ways are more complicated that's all!...

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by old jong
Hi Ali!... And,welcome back Hendrik!...

IMO,this is not an easy project,only because it is so easy and people want it to be complicated or difficult!...;)

As I begin to understand and get "some" faint results I realise that I wasted many years looking for something that should be simply present all the times.It is there in the simple absence of desire and in the law of movement.Movement brings response from a higher level than counscious thoughts.

The Wing Chun way is simple.Other ways are more complicated that's all!...


Patience is the key; from Patience you get calmness and you can develop a high level of relaxation, and from understanding the concepts of what you are working on, lop sao drills, blocking drills or anything that you might be working on or with. You are right, chi will flow naturally to the hands or even to the whole body, just from practicing wing chun all by it’s self, but if you don’t have Patience you will not understand your concept that you are working on, therefore becoming hard and rigid, and will have too force your wing chun too work for you, then chi power will never knock on your door. But by simply doing the movement in the SLT, chi will flow to the hands because you are relaxed at that moment, when you think forward with the hands, chi will automatically follow, because of the simplicities and relaxation of your body movements.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Tydive]

How about this. Chi is a byproduct of intent or the lack thereof. When you are "in the now" your Chi will flow. If you are thinking about the end result of your action (or anything other than the reality of now) then your chi will be disrupted by that compeating intent... Thus when you know SLT to the point where it does not take thought you can experience the "internal" development... just as you could with any other moving meditation technique.

Hendrick, very interesting post.

Tom, lets here more about golgi tendon exercises.

Ali, one of these days I really want to talk with you about how you use Chi and to see if some of my ideas/experiences are in line with yours.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Tydive
How about this. Chi is a byproduct of intent or the lack thereof. When you are "in the now" your Chi will flow. If you are thinking about the end result of your action (or anything other than the reality of now) then your chi will be disrupted by that compeating intent... Thus when you know SLT to the point where it does not take thought you can experience the "internal" development... just as you could with any other moving meditation technique.

Hendrick, very interesting post.

Tom, lets here more about golgi tendon exercises.

Ali, one of these days I really want to talk with you about how you use Chi and to see if some of my ideas/experiences are in line with yours.


Good Post:

That’s how it works, I feel only after you understand the proper concepts and techniques, can things become natural and without thoughts, it takes “Patience” too develop a high level of chi kung. Good post!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
So, there is no gate no door within the same realm, one must go beyond. similar to cross over the castle via helicopter.

contradiction to lots of other's believe that SLT is to learn this or that or get this kiu sau or that tan sau..... SLT is about un HARD Wiring! Not about making something. but not making anything and pay attention to the process of the execution or the set of the moves.

Thus, when some master tell thier students do that Little idea set. he is telling them to just drop those mind chatter, but observe, aware ... and working with doing the UN HARD WIRE. But today, people carry things into the opposite directin of try to making something.


That's why when I first learned Wing Chun from a Yip Man student called Patrick Chow, "In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau." (YongChun)

However modern people as in this thread don't like that anymore:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34090&perpage=15&pagenumber=2


"This kind of thing has no place in today's world, imo.
Total waste of the student's time and money."
__________________
Victor Parlati

"IMO,students nowadays want (or need?) to be entertained or they will simply vanish away,as I said earlier.There were benefits with that slow "classical" approach. The foundations were built before the roof and everything was solid before going to the next item.But times change! We have to give them what they want and they want more and faster."
-Michel.

Ray

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Intriguing post Tom. What are some of the threshold changing exercises that you refer to?

"Chi" means "air." How do you cultivate chi? Breathe so you don't die.
-- heard from Moy Yat, who attributed it to Wong Shuen Lueng

Concentrating on normal training methods primarily aimed at training the nervous system, the muscle spindles, and, of course, the muscles themselves will indirectly train the golgi tendon organ (GTO). Essentially, anything which causes thickening of the tendons and sinew, along with increasing 'starting strength' from the muscle, will have an excellent byproduct of reseting the body's prioceptive thresholds controlled by the GTO in addition to reseting the body's other prioceptive thresholds (controlled primarily by the muscle spindles).

In order to benefit from training specifically targeting the GTO, you would have to be at a point where the body's neuromuscular junction and its muscle spindles can allow the muscle to contract to a stiffness above the stiffness of the tendon. It is at this point where the the elastic energy of the tendon comes into major play.

Reaching a point where a person can specifically target the GTO in training can only be considered for a person who is entering into the elite levels of athleticism. Unless a person can conjure a psychotic episode at will (;) to oldjong), it is only an elite athlete who can reach the point where, at will, their muscle can contract to a tension stiffer than the tendon attached to it. Before that point, it is best to ignore specific training for the GTO because it would guarantee injury.

Even at that point where specific training of the GTO might prove beneficial, it is some of the most injury prone training an athlete can endure for their craft. In nearly every case, it is infinitely smarter and more beneficial for an athlete to spend training effort elsewhere and continue to allow the body to take care of itself indirectly in resetting the specific prioceptive thresholds involved in GTO activation.

[Vajramusti]

Good post Tom. Thanks.

BTW-chi has many meanings- air is only one of them for those who use a chi paradigm. Not debating paradigms. Thx

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Good post Tom. Thanks.

BTW-chi has many meanings- air is only one of them for those who use a chi paradigm. Not debating paradigms. Thx

You are quite welcome.

An interesting story: I once had the pleasure of meeting a very old and skilled White Eyebrow Martial Art practitioner. He demonstrated to me his ability to produce a great deal of power from a very small movement (i.e. inch power). One of my SiHings with me asked the gentleman how he was able to do this. His reply was that he used his chi to coil his spine and latch it in place. When he needed to, he popped the latch and his spine would unwind instantly. (Thank goodness I was able to supress laughing. :o )

Chi which is quantifiable and measurable is infinitely more interesting and relevant than chi which defies comprehension. So, I could tell someone to "cultivate your chi so you can one day coil and latch your spine." Or, I could tell them to just breathe, relax, stop worrying about it, just keep training hard and go waste someone else's time if they want a more dubious explanation. :D

I fully recognize that chi has many meanings - some at odds with each other. It's just that I much prefer the wordless gesture. Air is far easier to understand (well, at least potentially :rolleyes::) ). Can you say the same for some other paradigms regarding chi which you don't wish to debate? ;)


Frankly, if just 1/10 of the claims for chi were true, a bunch of tiny 80 year old men and women would win every medal at every event during every Olympics. :cool:

[Vajramusti]

Tom-
Some comments on your post after snips just for reference points.

I once had the pleasure of meeting a very old and skilled White Eyebrow Martial Art practitioner. He demonstrated to me his ability to produce a great deal of power from a very small movement (i.e. inch power).

((What is your explnation of his power))

Chi which is quantifiable and measurable is infinitely more interesting and relevant than chi which defies comprehension.

((Lots of things that are difficult to measure are nevertheless
interesting and real -and has empirical consequences...like love))

Or, I could tell them to just breathe, relax, stop worrying about it, just keep training hard and go waste someone else's time if they want a more dubious explanation.

((For wing chun - doing the motions "right"-will develop the necessary chi over time without metaphysical discussions. But doing it "right" is not easy- and a mechanical chart can miss the nuances))

I fully recognize that chi has many meanings - some at odds with each other.

((Of course- differences in details of meaning and confusions shows up in most fields of knowledge. But one does not need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Whitehead hada theory of relatovity. So did Einstein. Some overlapping meanings but
Einstein's was more accptable than Whitehead's though both had explanatory power))

It's just that I much prefer the wordless gesture.

((Didnt follw you))

Air is far easier to understand (well, at least potentially ).

((Air is... but when you get into issues on how best to oxygenise the body- it is not simple))

Can you say the same for some other paradigms regarding chi which you don't wish to debate?

((Same- what? Easy to understand? Lots of important things are not easy to understand. Distrust of superficial clarity and trying to clarify things that are murky can sometimes be an important path to knowledge.
This is not the place to debate and I am disinclined to do so anyway. But some glimpses of a POV:

1. The notion of "pneuma" was once known in the west (Stoics-
fire and energy). Combinations of materialism and spiritualism
arrested that understanding. Kant however touches on the noumena- though for him it was unmeasurable- but part of the world nevertheless.
2.Some folks in China and India and in some other traditional societies took the equivalent of pneuma seriously- giving it different names- prana, chi etc. The implications are many- in TCM, ayurveda, yoga, chi gung, acupuncture, internal martial arts-
chen taiji, alternative medicine. healing while avoiding the side effects of medications, bio feedback, blood pressure control, unlocking thebody's own healing powers. No one can master all of these things and sure there is a lot of fakery by some... just as there are lots of ineffective quacks who practice medicine.


Frankly, if just 1/10 of the claims for chi were true, a bunch of tiny 80 year old men and women would win every medal at every event during every Olympics.

((Non sequitur. Straw man argumentation. When the details of a competitive sport is specified- a traing program emerges. But even here in the west there is the development of "sport psychilogy" not just mechanics.
Incidentally the Chinese have really progressed in swimming- and while there was suspicion of "drugs"--the coaches pointed out that there are common Chinese herbs that are not steroids.
Also some Asian psychologial models avids much of the mind body dualism of other psychologies. No debate and enough rambling.
If I were sprinting I would talk to sprinting coaches. But if I wanted to know what good fajing was -I wouldnt be looking ata bio mechanics text- I would be talking to someone who can do it.)) sorry- no proofreading of keyboard mistakes. Cheers. Joy

[yylee]

interesting notes on GTO, Tom.

little bit more on GTO in MMA....

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale45.htm


question is, can SNT/Chi Sau training lessen the negative effects of GTO? use Chi? ... use Intent? ...or use whatever just do it? Like the article above says: "When an athlete is attempting to exert maximal muscular contraction, subconscious as well as conscious mechanisms are at work".

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by yylee
interesting notes on GTO, Tom.

little bit more on GTO in MMA....

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale45.htm


question is, can SNT/Chi Sau training lessen the negative effects of GTO? use Chi? ... use Intent? ...or use whatever just do it? Like the article above says: "When an athlete is attempting to exert maximal muscular contraction, subconscious as well as conscious mechanisms are at work".



Interesting stuffs!

what phase in Keng geng start with concentric phase or eccentric phase of the SSC?

[yylee]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Interesting stuffs!

what phase in Keng geng start with concentric phase or eccentric phase of the SSC?

another one http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale18.htm

"The deadlift and squat stimulate very similar movement patterns, but almost everyone can perform more weight in the squat than they can the deadlift. One reason being the squat begins with the eccentric phase. In comparison the deadlift begins with the concentric phase of the exercise; thus eliminating the SSC. The SSC preserves energy due to the storage of elasticity in the tendons and muscles. "

As you have heard, I don't know squat about Keng Geng ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Chi...is an invisible, electro-magnetic energy that permeates every inch of space. It's everywhere. In the water - in our bodies - in the food we eat (which often results in a "burst of energy")...and ESPECIALLY in the AIR.

So when we breathe - we replenish our bodies with chi. ALL THE TIME. (We breathe more often than we eat or drink, for example).

And when we breathe with PURPOSEFUL INTENT (ie.- with a visualized and/or mindful intention of directing our energy-breath-power-bloodflow-light...etc. (pick your metaphor)...to a SPECIFIC place in the body - we are capable of developing a concentrated one-pointedness of our "internal (non-muscular) energy"...although indeed it can flow through and enhance (especially if we are relaxed)...our muscular movements with that extra added....CHI...ENERGY...SOMETHING.

But Tom is correct...the biggest CARRIER of chi - for all practical purposes...is AIR.

Hence so many esoteric traditions down through the ages have taught some form of breath control (ie.- following the breath during meditation...during prana yoga...while jogging....every physical activity is enhanced by proper breathing - because hidden within the air - and within the blood - and within our physical muscle movements...

There is this invisible, electro-magnetic energy we in CMA call chi...ki to the Japanese...prana to the Hindus and Buddhists, etc.

[old jong]

I like to see the internal thing as:"Moving with the spirit and letting the physical body follow".

There are two distinct aspects in this discussion: The pure energy ,present everywhere at our disposal and,the mind/spirit/body connection,necessary to "control" it if I can use that term.
There is also a gray area between the "intent" and the "awareness" without being attached to thoughts.

We also know that various athletes use the mind and visualisations for better results etc...

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by yylee
another one http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale18.htm

"The deadlift and squat stimulate very similar movement patterns, but almost everyone can perform more weight in the squat than they can the deadlift. One reason being the squat begins with the eccentric phase.


In comparison the deadlift begins with the concentric phase of the exercise; thus eliminating the SSC. The SSC preserves energy due to the storage of elasticity in the tendons and muscles. "

As you have heard, I don't know squat about Keng Geng ;)

Does that means squat elimating the ssc?

So is Keng Geng similar to deadlift or squat? is sun punch similar to deadlift or squat? is biu jee similar to deadlift or squat?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

But Tom is correct...the biggest CARRIER of chi - for all practical purposes...is AIR.




thus I have heard,

air is a component of producing the Chi.
Food is another component, physical body is another components. relaxation of physical body contribute to the smooth flow of the Chi. and one can sense the thermal flow changes to monitor the chi's flow and intensity.

for practical purpose, one can have all the air but without the food and body. there is no chi.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by old jong

There is also a gray area between the "intent" and the "awareness" without being attached to thoughts.



Thus, I have heard

The practice of Buddhism suggest two practices

1, concentration practice or Tze in Chinese
2, Observation practice or Kuan in Chinese

concentration lead to mastering the intent function
observation lead to awareness

one will not be able to aware fully,
one will not be able to intent fully , when attached to thoughts.
beyond thought realm there is the intuitive realm. and there, the "silence or stillness" amplified.
The Tze and Kuan lead one to travel into intuitive realms and above........

can understand what happen in the intuitive realm with the thought realm .

in order to master a realm, one has to get to a realm beyond it.

[yylee]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Does that means squat elimating the ssc?

So is Keng Geng similar to deadlift or squat? is sun punch similar to deadlift or squat? is biu jee similar to deadlift or squat?

I don't know squat about weight lifting ;) but I think the paragraph says squat begins with eccentric phase so SSC energy kicks in.

I think your question really is: is SSC used in Keng Geng, sun punch or biu jee? and if so, which phase of the motion is storing energy.

my goodness, you are asking me to use my brian on a saturday?! ;)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by yylee
I don't know squat about weight lifting ;) but I think the paragraph says squat begins with eccentric phase so SSC energy kicks in.

I think your question really is: is SSC used in Keng Geng, sun punch or biu jee? and if so, which phase of the motion is storing energy.

my goodness, you are asking me to use my brian on a saturday?! ;)


Kick in when?


I love non linear thinking. that way I drive you nuts and drive you to the New Teretory ( Shan Kai) but dont mistaken that as Hong Kong's Shan Kai. :D

[yylee]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Kick in when?


I love non linear thinking. that way I drive you nuts and drive you to the New Teretory ( Shan Kai) but dont mistaken that as Hong Kong's Shan Kai. :D

I know there are some famous weight lifting gyms in Kowloon, around those old WC sifu's kwoons. New Territory? there were some farms there back then, don't remember much.

>>Kick in when?

I guess when the structure and the muscles are under stress due to the weight, the tendons store some energy. The way I understand it, if brute muscle contraction is use at the very beginning, the tendon won't get the chance to store incoming pressure. So the sitting down action during the beginning of the squat can store the energy....

"When a tendon or muscle is stretched, elastic energy is stored within its structure. The elastic energy is recoiled and used to increase the efficiency of the concentric phase of movement. The level of stored energy is proportional to the applied force and speed of the stretch. The magnitude of the stretch is a function of muscle and tendon stiffness (Zatsiorsky 1995). "

and I like paradoxical thinking, I tell you one thing but really mean another. ;)

[AndrewS]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Does that means squat elimating the ssc?

So is Keng Geng similar to deadlift or squat? is sun punch similar to deadlift or squat? is biu jee similar to deadlift or squat?

Yes.

And even more similar to the jerk and push press. . .

Have fun,

Andrew

P.S. 'Motion in stillness, stillness in motion'.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"There are two distinct aspects in this discussion: The pure energy ,present everywhere at our disposal and,the mind/spirit/body connection,necessary to "control" it if I can use that term." (Old Jong/Michel)

In that case Michel...let's start to spill all the beans. The esoteric traditions speak of the sevenfold nature of man, and they are - from lowest to highest:

1) Physical body
2) Life Principle.................... (prana,chi,"the force",internal energy,etc.)
3) Astral body
4) Desire nature
5) Mind
6) Soul
7) Spirit

[Tom Kagan]

What is your explanation of his [inch] power?

Lots of things that are difficult to measure are nevertheless
interesting and real -and has empirical consequences...like love

Does it matter? I thought my SiHing asked a stupid question, anyway. :)

Suppose, for a moment, the gentleman had, instead, said that his ability came from god, from little green men, or from the nanobots that were injected into him during a secret government experiment which re-engineered his DNA on the molecular level. Would the fact that he can produce inch power prove the existence of god, little green men, or that the movie "Black Mask" was inspired by a true story which was edited for brevity and some details changed due to artistic license? :D

Even if I cannot explain his inch power, I can unequivocally prove that the gentleman's spine has not been coiled like a spring and latched and he does not "pop the latch" to unleash the inch power.

But, since you asked, I actually can explain his inch power. It comes from two factors: Copious amounts of starting strength, plus the coordination to use it in a fashion that allows it to be expressed that way.

I can teach starting strength. Give me the right tools and about eight months, and I can train a muscle to produce as much force in starting strength as the muscle is genetically able. (By itself, entirely useless). The full coordination, however, shares a characteristic with many efforts of developing skill: It cannot be taught, but it can be learned.

Assuming we are not referring to the score of zero in tennis, love is another subject which cannot be taught but it can be learned.


For wing chun - doing the motions "right"-will develop the necessary chi over time without metaphysical discussions. But doing it "right" is not easy- and a mechanical chart can miss the nuances

We agree. But the "mechanical charts" which alleged "chi masters" use to "coil their spine" shares the same problem because "chi" is another subject which cannot be taught but can be learned. The metaphysical discussions to which you refer make the subject no more easy and, in many cases, harder than it has to be for those whose "chi" alludes them. Hence, my reference to the wordless gesture.