ATT Cerebus and any Lama heads

[diego]

if you are online and not busy in the next day or two, I was wondering if you could check out some details on the White Crane footwork in your books?.

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/4Theoverheadpunch.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/6Thewhippunch.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/12LFContinuation.html

In the chop fist it mentions that the footwork I'm curious about is called the Step-and-turn step, but the grey HopGar book doesn't explain the theory behind the footwork...it mentions the names of the basic patterns in the books intro , but I'm curious to find out if the other books break down the traditional teaching behind the step-and-turn step...any idea what it is called in chinese, and if it has any info on it and you have the time, could you type it up for me please?

The action looks like just using kick-pivots to get into your stance...but I haven't seen footwork like that in other styles!?

Have you?

I sent this to your pm but it was full and i'm hoping others may have info on the topic

I know how to pivot from bowstance into cat stance, but haven't been taught any pivots like shown in the book...tho i only know the basics of Kaidos kajukenbo-Hop Gar style:)

[JAZA]

What's the difference with Choy Lee Fut?

Didn't one of the old master of TKf studied CLF?

Thanks,

JZ

[Palmer]

I'm no expert when it comes to the history of CMA but I do not believe the Lama styles are rooted in CLF. Although I've noticed that many recent Lama teachers have trained in CLF and I'm not sure if thats a proximity thing or because they are both known for there long arm movements.
Its my understanding that the footwork and strategy are considerably different.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

From those pictures it looks very very similar.

[Palmer]

You would have to have some experience in both to really know the differences. Pictures really dont show enough, all anyone has to do is keep there arms straight out away from the body and it can look like any long arm style. I happen to like CLF as well as Hop Gar but I definatly recognize the differences between the two. My teacher is one of the few students of Sifu David Chin(pictures you are referring to are from his book) authorized by him to teach his Hop Gar, I dont claim to be an expert in the Hop Gar but I have seen it up close.

[diego]

Originally posted by Palmer
You would have to have some experience in both to really know the differences. Pictures really dont show enough, all anyone has to do is keep there arms straight out away from the body and it can look like any long arm style. I happen to like CLF as well as Hop Gar but I definatly recognize the differences between the two. My teacher is one of the few students of Sifu David Chin(pictures you are referring to are from his book) authorized by him to teach his Hop Gar, I dont claim to be an expert in the Hop Gar but I have seen it up close.

Hello Palmer, do you have any info on the step I'm enquiring about?. I realized I know one technique that uses the step-and-turn step...say you are on his inside and you shoot a left hand straight punch to his solar plexus in a leftside bow (crane) stance with the weight on your right leg...then your left hand rakes a claw counterclockwise upon his face opening him up for a right overhead to the left side of the temple...immediatily followed by a right side-stomp-slash kick to either his groin or lead knee.

The overhead/kick combo has the step-and-turn step within it I think...which leads me to beleive the step-and-turn step is simply kick-pivots used to create mass power in the TKF seed fists!?:)

[Palmer]

I consider myself a beginner when it comes to the Hop Gar I am learning. I dont really have any written info other than the book those pages are from. The footwork in the first link is one of the more common types of footwork that is used . Some of the footwork that I learned thats similar to whats shown with the whip punch (third link)I believe is geared towards the idea of hitting the opponent from multiple positions and not remaining in the same spot. I wish I could help more but I'm afraid I would end up giving you false info and my Sifu would not be happy about that:) My Sifu's website is on my profile I noticed its down today for some reason but check there if you want to see some general info on Hop Gar. I'm not sure what your experiences are with the Hop Gar but one of our principles is every punch is thrown from a body position thats at least 7 inches from where the last punch was thrown from. This is even without moving the feet at times.

[diego]

Originally posted by Palmer
I consider myself a beginner when it comes to the Hop Gar I am learning. I dont really have any written info other than the book those pages are from. The footwork in the first link is one of the more common types of footwork that is used . Some of the footwork that I learned thats similar to whats shown with the whip punch (third link)I believe is geared towards the idea of hitting the opponent from multiple positions and not remaining in the same spot. I wish I could help more but I'm afraid I would end up giving you false info and my Sifu would not be happy about that:) My Sifu's website is on my profile I noticed its down today for some reason but check there if you want to see some general info on Hop Gar. I'm not sure what your experiences are with the Hop Gar but one of our principles is every punch is thrown from a body position thats at least 7 inches from where the last punch was thrown from. This is even without moving the feet at times.

I think we have a similar principle of punching, but I'm not exactly sure:) We have a lot of chain punching in our drills...like multiple strikes using the same hand...for instance slam a right ridge hand to the left temple then immediatly fire a right wiping-backfist to the right temple...then with the same hand you could sneak down for a palm strike or backfist to the groin etc...I have many drills that have those chain-linking hands.

"I wish I could help more but I'm afraid I would end up giving you false info and my Sifu would not be happy about that:)"

I can fully respect that:)

Check this link for more info on my style of Hopgar...all I know is Kaido got it from Harry Ng somehow...I don't know if he was taught firsthand or if he picked it up from a friend/student of Sifu Ng...suppossedly Kaido was taught sanda drills orsomething!!?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=32549

Cheers
James

[Palmer]

Alot of what we do also is hitting again with the hand that has just hit. Usually this concept is working on a circle where you are just going back from the opposite direction you were just coming from and swivelling the waist also in the opposite direction. For example in the overhead punch photos if the opponent did not go down you could immediatly bring your striking hand back up hitting with an upward backfist swivelling the waist in the opposite direction and following through with the rear hand. Working with the wooden blocks really develops these upward hand strikes.
Sifu Chins Hop Gar is also from Harry Ng so there may be many similarities.

[diego]

Some of the footwork that I learned thats similar to whats shown with the whip punch (third link)I believe is geared towards the idea of hitting the opponent from multiple positions and not remaining in the same spot."

one more thing...is this theory kind of like hitting him while on the run...which would be good training for fighting multiple opponnents?...in some of Kaido's drills there is a few techniques that are used on the run so to speak, and they set up the oppennent for the finishing shot...there is one in the first form that is very Pakua-like...against a right punch, step to the left into a left bowstance and left palm slap the opponnents elbow, and then quickly step in with your right leg so you are almost behind the opponnent and fire either a short uppercut or a side-palm to his right ribs...and then you can step behind your right leg with your left and turn counterclockwise so you end up in either a right cat stance and trap him with a right then left palm around the shoulder-neck area and then finish with a left palm trap and right backfist to the back of his neck...or you can end up in right crane stance (wieght on the left leg....sideward bowstance) and as you rotate into the stance you check his upper back-neck area with a left wiping palm and slam down his spine with a raking right hand overhead punch using the big two knuckles down his spine...then of course you can follow up with a left straight punch to his kidneys or lower back while shuffling into a left crane stance.

The Cat stance-paksau/backfist is from the first set, and the crane-overhead/chune choi is from the second set of Kaido's Kajukenbo/Hop Gar:)

[Palmer]

I really couldnt say it sounds good but I would have to see it to be more confident that I know what your talking about. There is some retreating that is taught but usually you are striking while you retreat and only enough to reposition for another offensive maneuver.
One thing I'll mention is that Sifu Chin had learned Guang Ping Yang Tai Chi and Hsing-i/Yi Chuan with Kuo Lien Ying before studying with Harry Ng. We are all a product of our experiences and the Hsing-i principles have complimented alot of the Hop Gar. There philosophies are fairly similar even though they may appear very different in motion. So alot of the timing of our strikes with the feet and alot of the internal body work has come into the Hop Gar as we practice it. This has allowed me to appreciate both of them even more.

[diego]

Originally posted by Palmer
Alot of what we do also is hitting again with the hand that has just hit. Usually this concept is working on a circle where you are just going back from the opposite direction you were just coming from and swivelling the waist also in the opposite direction. For example in the overhead punch photos if the opponent did not go down you could immediatly bring your striking hand back up hitting with an upward backfist swivelling the waist in the opposite direction and following through with the rear hand. Working with the wooden blocks really develops these upward hand strikes.
Sifu Chins Hop Gar is also from Harry Ng so there may be many similarities.

Okay I got you...we have a few drills exactly like you mentioned...in fact exactly...off the head i can think of one
vs a right punch...jump into right crane and left grab the punch and hit his left temple with a right hammer fist, as the fist comes down you can hit his bicep to maximize the force of the movement and then slip the right hammer into a hammer to the groin, and quickly wipe back up with a right backfist to the right temple and follow through with a left backfist-nailing punch to the right temple...I have a few drills that use the exact order of technique you mentione...overhead to low shot, raise up and nail with the rear etc:)

I am familiar with Sifu Chin, as that grey Hop Gar book was the first material I ever found on the style back in like 1998:)
Cheers

[diego]

Originally posted by Palmer
I really couldnt say it sounds good but I would have to see it to be more confident that I know what your talking about. There is some retreating that is taught but usually you are striking while you retreat and only enough to reposition for another offensive maneuver.
One thing I'll mention is that Sifu Chin had learned Guang Ping Yang Tai Chi and Hsing-i/Yi Chuan with Kuo Lien Ying before studying with Harry Ng. We are all a product of our experiences and the Hsing-i principles have complimented alot of the Hop Gar. There philosophies are fairly similar even though they may appear very different in motion. So alot of the timing of our strikes with the feet and alot of the internal body work has come into the Hop Gar as we practice it. This has allowed me to appreciate both of them even more.

Unfortunatly i didn't get into the heavy sparring stages so my understanding of the theorys is very vague shall we say:)...but i think I get what you meant about the whip punch and the idea of hitting the opponent from multiple positions and not remaining in the same spot...the way the whip punch is set up in the photo I could see it used as a way to get around him basically...instead of boxing it out face to face so to speak!?

Kaido had degrees in kajukenbo and kali or arnis I'm told before he got the Hopgar so I'm not tottally sure what is what but I know I like what he does compared to a lot of the commercial schools out there, so I can appreciatte your comment about how the two styles have complimented each other:)
Thanks so much for your help

[diego]

one more thing...all the examples I gave are from Kaido's streetfighting short two man drills which comes from Kajukenbo style...Kaido has regular forms, but also taught using short application sets which is a famous training technique in styles like Kenpo...some schools go off with flowery applications, but kaido kept it short and simple...which I'm happy for as i have video of all of his forms, but I only know the differant applications to half of them...but I have almost all of his short drills so I pretty much get the intent behind all of his regular forms.

[JAZA]

Hello,

My question was in reference with the footwork you where asking for?

It's qwa choy(or chuen la in the picture), cup choy( or fahn jong in the picture) with diu ma, chin see ma ( turn step, scissor stance, advance). It's using the same power generation of CLF.

[Palmer]

The two hands being shown in the pictures may look similar but there are other variations that are different. One of the big differences is the circling the opponent from a posture that has your shoulder towards th opponents chest and your chest perpendicular to them as opposed to facing them directly. If you ever have the opportunity to see a Hop Gar form I think you would agree that it looks different than CLF.
David Chin is from Canton originally and grew up training CLF he didnt meet Harry Ng until living in California. There would have been no need to learn the Hop Gar if it was pretty much the same thing as CLF.

[JAZA]

Thanks Palmer.

I didn't want to say that is the same Hop Gar and CLF, just the picture looks similar. I understand that with a picture there are a lot of things left to imagination.

Peace

[Simhanada]

Diego,

Look at the principles - "Sim" in particular. Many branches of Lion's Roar! use the positional aspects of Sim, as described in the earlier posts on this thread.

A very high exponent and advocate is GM Lo-Wai-Keung of Lama-Pai in Hong-Kong.

You need to understand the principles otherwise the actions make far less sense.

[diego]

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/4Theoverheadpunch.jpg

just a quick question, from pictures two-four, how is Micheal Staples pivoting...on the ball, heel or sole of the foot?

I'm at a job search place so I can't chat too much on their computers:)
Peace

[diego]

Originally posted by Palmer
The two hands being shown in the pictures may look similar but there are other variations that are different. One of the big differences is the circling the opponent from a posture that has your shoulder towards th opponents chest and your chest perpendicular to them as opposed to facing them directly. If you ever have the opportunity to see a Hop Gar form I think you would agree that it looks different than CLF.
David Chin is from Canton originally and grew up training CLF he didnt meet Harry Ng until living in California. There would have been no need to learn the Hop Gar if it was pretty much the same thing as CLF.

I have videos of Tat Mau wongs CLF and it is definatly way differant than Kaidos hopgar...Kaidos style has more of that Dragon-body-coil behind the frame of the forms, wheras i notice CLf that I have seen has more of that leopard-springy power to it...but I'm just a simple caveman so these high level concepts are beyond me:) thinking of a saturday night live special about the caveman lawyer

[Palmer]

Diego check your PM's

Jaza- No problem like I said I like CLF alot its a good style IMO and have no problem with Hop Gar being compared to it. Having been exposed to both I just recognize that there are distinct differences.

[diego]

Originally posted by Simhanada
Diego,

Look at the principles - "Sim" in particular. Many branches of Lion's Roar! use the positional aspects of Sim, as described in the earlier posts on this thread.

A very high exponent and advocate is GM Lo-Wai-Keung of Lama-Pai in Hong-Kong.

You need to understand the principles otherwise the actions make far less sense.

Hello is this Steve? :)

Sim: Sanskrit: Avarana: That which veils, conceals, or surrounds the real nature of beings or things. 'To evade, draw-out, to deceive': Moksha. The opponent may be drawn into a Bardo state thru such means, by directing them into inappropriate action. All forms of evasion and drawing as conventionally understood could fit this Guna, provided, that the overall management of the conflict is with intention to control the Bardo Field.


i get what you said...Sim: Sanskrit: Avarana: That which veils, conceals, or surrounds the real nature of beings or things.

that pretty much sums up what i was going on about with the hitting on the run/getting around him so to speak comment...kinda like a deadly game of cat and mouse, drawing your opponnent into a place where he wishes he didn't enter:)
cheers

[Simhanada]

Diego,

"Sim" is often practiced 'outside' the gate, but, the Chinese character for Sim is a man in motion inside a door. The Indian understanding comes from action within the door - the combat Bardo field is represented in Hindu tradition as action within the inbetween spaces, the cross-over points, neither in, nor out, 'Narasimha' - the Man-Lion deity 'Inside The Door'. How each tradition or Pai expresses this depends on long years of cultural transformation and personal practice by generations of teachers. If you want an applied esoteric understanding, something that will give you insight into the original intention of 'sim', then you should study Narasimha. Contact is closer than many today would expect.

[HopGar]

I guess I might as well stick in my imput for 4 years of Hop Gar experience, so to me it's like this:

The first link to me looks like a chuyrn wye kern-cup choy combination with poi bai sau that for some reason uses an odd stance in the middle (picture number 6.) I've never seen that stance in Hop Gar. What the heck is Staple's hand doing up in the air like that at the end of the combo?!

The second link is a variation on poy-e-sau done and chay sen in response to a high punch rather than a normal height punch. The first stance in picture number one is kind of stange to me as well.

The last link is too small, so I can't tell what it is.

Peace Y'all

[diego]

Originally posted by Simhanada
Diego,

"Sim" is often practiced 'outside' the gate, but, the Chinese character for Sim is a man in motion inside a door. The Indian understanding comes from action within the door - the combat Bardo field is represented in Hindu tradition as action within the inbetween spaces, the cross-over points, neither in, nor out, 'Narasimha' - the Man-Lion deity 'Inside The Door'. How each tradition or Pai expresses this depends on long years of cultural transformation and personal practice by generations of teachers. If you want an applied esoteric understanding, something that will give you insight into the original intention of 'sim', then you should study Narasimha. Contact is closer than many today would expect.

can i find the info i need on narasimha on your webpage?

in a hurry right now:)

Hop gar....care to rewrite your post without the chinese terminology:) you lost me!

[diego]

Cerebus your pm is full man:)....just got that white crane book thanks again and merry christmas etc

i will get that article to yall peeps soon, my moms comp crashed and i'm lazy etcetc:cool:

[Simhanada]

Diego,

There is much more on the site, here in some on teh Bardo concept, and it relates to 'Sim':

The Bardo concept (Tibetan) originates in the Indo-Aryan Sanatana Dharma (Hindu) tradition as 'Antarabhala', meaning literally 'in-between births'. As 'Antarala' it refers to any in-between or transitory state, including those 'spaces' and 'times' between movements and thoughts and between actions and reactions.

These Bardo's include spatio-temporal 'gaps' in combat, in 'information processing', and in those transcendent points of creation or instantiation, into the mental, or physical, planes.

In The Tantric Lion's Roar! Martial art, the Bardo-field represents both an internal 'moment' within which to realize the attainment of Bodhicitta (Buddhist) or union with Brahma (Sanatana Dharma).

It is also the battlefield of 'Maya' (Illusion), and the temporal-spatial state within which to undergo 'Chod' or 'Cutting Severance.

The Chod ritual is deeply connected with the Tibetan Tantric practice of the same name:

"Chod, meaning cutting through, is a Buddhist Tantric practice. In Tibetan Buddhist Tantra it is taught to beginners for accumulation of merits; it is also practiced by ardent devotees for realization of Dharmakaya— the pinnacle of Buddhist realization." See Link: The Chod Ritual (Non Martial Tantra) As in non-martial Tantra, so too in the Lion's Roar! Martial-Tantra-yana, Guru Padmasambhava - The Lion Roaring Guru, plays a central part, See Link: The Lion's Roar Guru: Padmasambhava

In Martial Tantra, the first principle is Chinnatti (to penetrate) as in the 'penetration to the truth' within Buddhism. This occurs internally as a Bardo-Chod (Antar-Ala Chid: Sanskrit). The goal is to 'offer the Body' as in non-Martial Chod. Externally, this manifests as a Kinetic form: the First Seed Technique of the Lion's Roar! Martial Art, known in Sanskrit as Chinatti-Chid or Chinna-Chinnatti- 'The Penetrating Cut'.

There is isomorphism between internal state and external action - i.e. they are the same.

Therefore, the First Seed Principle and First seed Action BOTH instantiate Bardo-Chod, the 'Cutting severance'.

In strictly martial terms, the Bardo-Field is the field of Mastery of the Art. All actions instantiate and culminate within the Bardo:

"The idea is to open all available Bardo voids for us, and to close them for our opponent. What happens here is that the opponent is reduced to 'reacting' to closure, and cannot initiate or create action. Bardo's (Antarala's - Sanskrit) exist as spatial and temporal (time) intervals. The spatial Bardo is the creation point for action, and the temporal Bardo is a kind of 'cyber-space' for the brains information processing. The Spatial Bardo is where the 'Rupa' of Form is created or at least 'manifestly instantiated'. The cognitive (Brain) Bardo is where the 'Nama' (name/principle) develops. In Hinduism, nothing existed before its Nama and its Rupa, and nothing does literally 'exist' until these are distinguished... or 'created'. They are illusions caused by apperception or awareness by the subjective mind (in Hinduism) but, they nevertheless represent experiential 'reality'.

In the Han-Chinese Lion's Roar! tradition principles:

Chune, penetrates the Bardo field, Sim, draws the oponent into a closed Bardo that has no manifestation or creation point for any 'Rupa' on his part, and no mental Bardo for the Nama to guide the Rupa. It is a true void, one collapsed to 'singularity' like a 'Black-Hole' in physics. Jeet finds the "moments" of arc, or thought-realization, and arrests them, hence the interception before being fully formed. Chon is the 'completion' of action in the Bardo which results in annihilation at that 'point' in space, and at that point in thought/time.

The defence against this is have spare Bardo space, within which to operate information processing, so you have a kind of partitioned Namarupa, like a partitiond hard-drive on a personal computer. The spare RAM available to trained information processing allows you to 'quantum leap' from one Bardo field to another, and, to run one Bardo ahead in time and space of the 'actual' one - the one where the engagement is taking palce. This 'virtual' Bardo is therefore independent of actual immediate reality, and is a projection ahead in time and space. If your opponent closes your 'immediate' Bardo, your virtual Bardo field will already have computed a response and then initiates a new trajectory (firing-off point) for switching - at this point, the virtual Bardo becomes 'imposed' onto the actual engagement, and so a new Nama, and a new Rupa are spontaneously created in action".

NOTE THE ROLE OF KRISHNA'S 4TH AVATAR "NARASIMHA" IN TANTRIC MARTIAL ARTS:

Below is interesting, as an example of Lion Symbolism, and, of working the Psychic Bardo- Field with Narasimha as a 'Yidam' to strengthen the connection to the 'inner Lion' and its Roar!

The following is a short description of Vishnu in his Avatar as the 'Man-Lion'. Note his 'Bardo' state as Half-Man, Half-Lion Also, his action is at cross-over points and times (Antarala's/Bardo's)

From this, we can utilize appropriate imagery as the Man-Lion - as in a Yidam process, to work Tantrically in the Bardo-States:

The Man-Lion (Narasimha). "A demon had been granted the boon that it could not be killed by man or animal; inside or outside its house; by day or by night. It roamed the world causing distress and chaos. Vishnu became half-man, half-lion to kill the demon. He was neither man nor animal. He executed the demon on its threshold, neither in nor out of the house, at sunset - neither day nor night".

Vishnu (Krishna) is a Hindu deity, but, there is no problem with working him as a Yidam in a 'Buddhist' sense, or indeed a Hindu one, as Hinduism is open to all branches of religion.

Narasimha can remind us of the Bardo state between 'human' ego identified consciousness (the 'little ego self or atman with a small 'a') and a theriomorph - a mixed animal or full animal level of consciousness. In Lion's Roar! we utilize the cross-modal Bardo states of mind to tap into transformative Tantric powers.

The Bardo Warrior instantiates the essence of the Lion's Roar! Tantric Martial Art.

Om Simhanada Vajramushti Sangha Hum

[diego]

Originally posted by Simhanada
Diego,

There is much more on the site, here in some on teh Bardo concept, and it relates to 'Sim':

The Bardo concept (Tibetan) originates in the Indo-Aryan Sanatana Dharma (Hindu) tradition as 'Antarabhala', meaning literally 'in-between births'. As 'Antarala' it refers to any in-between or transitory state, including those 'spaces' and 'times' between movements and thoughts and between actions and reactions.

These Bardo's include spatio-temporal 'gaps' in combat, in 'information processing', and in those transcendent points of creation or instantiation, into the mental, or physical, planes.

In The Tantric Lion's Roar! Martial art, the Bardo-field represents both an internal 'moment' within which to realize the attainment of Bodhicitta (Buddhist) or union with Brahma (Sanatana Dharma).

It is also the battlefield of 'Maya' (Illusion), and the temporal-spatial state within which to undergo 'Chod' or 'Cutting Severance.

The Chod ritual is deeply connected with the Tibetan Tantric practice of the same name:

"Chod, meaning cutting through, is a Buddhist Tantric practice. In Tibetan Buddhist Tantra it is taught to beginners for accumulation of merits; it is also practiced by ardent devotees for realization of Dharmakaya— the pinnacle of Buddhist realization." See Link: The Chod Ritual (Non Martial Tantra) As in non-martial Tantra, so too in the Lion's Roar! Martial-Tantra-yana, Guru Padmasambhava - The Lion Roaring Guru, plays a central part, See Link: The Lion's Roar Guru: Padmasambhava

In Martial Tantra, the first principle is Chinnatti (to penetrate) as in the 'penetration to the truth' within Buddhism. This occurs internally as a Bardo-Chod (Antar-Ala Chid: Sanskrit). The goal is to 'offer the Body' as in non-Martial Chod. Externally, this manifests as a Kinetic form: the First Seed Technique of the Lion's Roar! Martial Art, known in Sanskrit as Chinatti-Chid or Chinna-Chinnatti- 'The Penetrating Cut'.

There is isomorphism between internal state and external action - i.e. they are the same.

Therefore, the First Seed Principle and First seed Action BOTH instantiate Bardo-Chod, the 'Cutting severance'.

In strictly martial terms, the Bardo-Field is the field of Mastery of the Art. All actions instantiate and culminate within the Bardo:

"The idea is to open all available Bardo voids for us, and to close them for our opponent. What happens here is that the opponent is reduced to 'reacting' to closure, and cannot initiate or create action. Bardo's (Antarala's - Sanskrit) exist as spatial and temporal (time) intervals. The spatial Bardo is the creation point for action, and the temporal Bardo is a kind of 'cyber-space' for the brains information processing. The Spatial Bardo is where the 'Rupa' of Form is created or at least 'manifestly instantiated'. The cognitive (Brain) Bardo is where the 'Nama' (name/principle) develops. In Hinduism, nothing existed before its Nama and its Rupa, and nothing does literally 'exist' until these are distinguished... or 'created'. They are illusions caused by apperception or awareness by the subjective mind (in Hinduism) but, they nevertheless represent experiential 'reality'.

In the Han-Chinese Lion's Roar! tradition principles:

Chune, penetrates the Bardo field, Sim, draws the oponent into a closed Bardo that has no manifestation or creation point for any 'Rupa' on his part, and no mental Bardo for the Nama to guide the Rupa. It is a true void, one collapsed to 'singularity' like a 'Black-Hole' in physics. Jeet finds the "moments" of arc, or thought-realization, and arrests them, hence the interception before being fully formed. Chon is the 'completion' of action in the Bardo which results in annihilation at that 'point' in space, and at that point in thought/time.

The defence against this is have spare Bardo space, within which to operate information processing, so you have a kind of partitioned Namarupa, like a partitiond hard-drive on a personal computer. The spare RAM available to trained information processing allows you to 'quantum leap' from one Bardo field to another, and, to run one Bardo ahead in time and space of the 'actual' one - the one where the engagement is taking palce. This 'virtual' Bardo is therefore independent of actual immediate reality, and is a projection ahead in time and space. If your opponent closes your 'immediate' Bardo, your virtual Bardo field will already have computed a response and then initiates a new trajectory (firing-off point) for switching - at this point, the virtual Bardo becomes 'imposed' onto the actual engagement, and so a new Nama, and a new Rupa are spontaneously created in action".

NOTE THE ROLE OF KRISHNA'S 4TH AVATAR "NARASIMHA" IN TANTRIC MARTIAL ARTS:

Below is interesting, as an example of Lion Symbolism, and, of working the Psychic Bardo- Field with Narasimha as a 'Yidam' to strengthen the connection to the 'inner Lion' and its Roar!

The following is a short description of Vishnu in his Avatar as the 'Man-Lion'. Note his 'Bardo' state as Half-Man, Half-Lion Also, his action is at cross-over points and times (Antarala's/Bardo's)

From this, we can utilize appropriate imagery as the Man-Lion - as in a Yidam process, to work Tantrically in the Bardo-States:

The Man-Lion (Narasimha). "A demon had been granted the boon that it could not be killed by man or animal; inside or outside its house; by day or by night. It roamed the world causing distress and chaos. Vishnu became half-man, half-lion to kill the demon. He was neither man nor animal. He executed the demon on its threshold, neither in nor out of the house, at sunset - neither day nor night".

Vishnu (Krishna) is a Hindu deity, but, there is no problem with working him as a Yidam in a 'Buddhist' sense, or indeed a Hindu one, as Hinduism is open to all branches of religion.

Narasimha can remind us of the Bardo state between 'human' ego identified consciousness (the 'little ego self or atman with a small 'a') and a theriomorph - a mixed animal or full animal level of consciousness. In Lion's Roar! we utilize the cross-modal Bardo states of mind to tap into transformative Tantric powers.

The Bardo Warrior instantiates the essence of the Lion's Roar! Tantric Martial Art.

Om Simhanada Vajramushti Sangha Hum

:) Thanks for the link

[cerebus]

Hey Diego. Thanks for the heads-up about my PM box. Glad to hear you received the book. :)

[hunt1]

HopGar, Are you a student of Ku sifu?

[diego]

Originally posted by cerebus
Hey Diego. Thanks for the heads-up about my PM box. Glad to hear you received the book. :)

:) what year is that book from? Staples looks a lot younger than in the grey hop gar book which came out in 1980.

[cerebus]

Hey Diego. That book is from around '73or '75, I forget exactly.

[diego]

Originally posted by cerebus
Hey Diego. That book is from around '73or '75, I forget exactly. yeah, that book is pretty basic compared to the grey book...glad i didn't order it for the like 60 dollars some cats were charging...still good book to have in the archives tho:)
that tibetan monk book....does it break down the theory of the system more or is it just about monks?

[cerebus]

Hmmmm. Well, it's kind of an odd book. It doesn't get in-depth about anything. It's just a basic intro to such things as Chinese medicine, footwork, weapons, stances. It's very basic too.

[diego]

Originally posted by cerebus
Hmmmm. Well, it's kind of an odd book. It doesn't get in-depth about anything. It's just a basic intro to such things as Chinese medicine, footwork, weapons, stances. It's very basic too. hm, you'd think for 200 dollars there would be a lot said....**** seceret lama style......i know more about freagin wing chun than i do hop gar...well at least i have way more wing chun/bruce lee books :)

[Simhanada]

The books were useful in their day, when there was nothing else. Now, people can communicate much easier, make contacts, go see people in person. It was harder in 1973 to learn anything about Lion's Roar!, its easier now than its ever been. You guys know each other, chances are in those days that would never have happened.

Make the most of it.

[cerebus]

Yeah, I'm actually a Hsing-I guy myself, but I collect martial arts books and have a gret interest in other kung fu styles (especially Lama, Hop Gar & White Crane).

And Diego, books are generally priced by what a seller thinks he can get for them (often based on how rare they are and a variety of other factors). The amount of info or quality of that info has nothing to do with it. I was lucky 'cause I found this book for just a few dollars. It's interesting but definitely not something you wanna pay $200 bucks for.

[diego]

i'm just annoyed that the only systems that it's easy to find a lot of research on are styles that have big legends behind them...tai chi, wing chun, hung gar etc

why did i have to get hooked on a rare style:)

no complaints, i just wish more info would come out like how the wing chun guys have it cuz of bruce lee uno:)

Maybe Sifu Ross can make a movie on Chan Tai Shan and then we can get a bunch of books on the differant lineages etc.
peace

Oh and Cerebus, I'm still interested in obtaining a copy of that monk book, so when you have some spare time etc...cheers and happy holidays yall

[HopGar]

Hunt1
I'm an ex-student. I couldn't afford lessons any more. Currently taking Hsing-I but still practicing Hop Gar as well.

peace

[CharlesDaCosta]

Boy, so much is being said in this thread, I am not sure what are the real questions?

[diego]

Originally posted by CharlesDaCosta
Boy, so much is being said in this thread, I am not sure what are the real questions?

crap i'm at my moms for xmas dinner but i forgot that article for yall...was in a hurry:)

Palmer answered my original questions through PM so the thread kinda drifted off into general chat...any one wanna discuss stuff?:D

I've noticed some schools who in the TKF world don't like to use kicks, wheras others practise the tornadoe kicks etc...

If any of you don't like to use kicks much in a fight but practise a lot of kicks in your style...why? Me, I always figured the tornado kick helps one to train the basic crane stance shifting rotational power at a more advanced level...meaning I noticed once my tornado kick got good I was capable of punching harder in my rotating crane stance, like I was capable to put more of it all into it!.

Another general question I have is...why do some schools punch with the lama fist with the thumb mounted on the side of the index and others let the thumb cover the index finger....do any of you punch with the shaolin fist with the thumb covering the index and middle fingers?

Happy holidays

[diego]

I think I'll defer a more detailed desciption of Hop Gar to Ross, however I am former student in the Hop Gar system so here's more superficial description. Rather long-arm, the stepping is rather unique - I havent seen anything close to it. " qoute hopgar from that please help thread on the main forum

so Palmer told me from what he's seen that the stepping is differant than anything he has seen, and the kfo member Hopgar mentioned the same

What exactly is unique about the Lama footwork and where did it come from?...from Palmer's description of my original pivoting footwork question where they pivot in place it got me thinking this may have to do with plum blossom pole footwork, and somehow the inventors of the system mixed up their punches with the kick-pivot actions creating a more solid fist so to speak?

any thoughts or wisdom to be shared?

[HopGar]

The footwork I saw is based on bagua, I'll have to go back through the forms and I'll post more later.

peace

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
If any of you don't like to use kicks much in a fight but practise a lot of kicks in your style...why?

...why do some schools punch with the lama fist with the thumb mounted on the side of the index and others let the thumb cover the index finger....do any of you punch with the shaolin fist with the thumb covering the index and middle fingers?

I love to kick so....

In both the Shaolin and Lama tradations all three thumb orientations exist. Some shoalin based schools call "the lama fist" the Ram's head fist.

I have seen all three in different forms, and have had a TWC teacher tell me that they serve different purposes (fist dynamics) and what you call "the lama fist" is the most advance of the three.

ON another note (CLF):

I met a guy that had completed the Hung Gar system and the CLF system. He told me that CLF basicly means "monk's style". We don't know which type of monk the style came from. It could have even been a Lama. But today, every thng comes from Shaolin.

I had told the guy that his CLF looks simular, that is why I got that responce.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
I think I'll defer a more detailed desciption of Hop Gar to Ross, however I am former student in the Hop Gar system so here's more superficial description. Rather long-arm, the stepping is rather unique - I havent seen anything close to it. " qoute hopgar from that please help thread on the main forum

so Palmer told me from what he's seen that the stepping is differant than anything he has seen, and the kfo member Hopgar mentioned the same

What exactly is unique about the Lama footwork and where did it come from?...from Palmer's description of my original pivoting footwork question where they pivot in place it got me thinking this may have to do with plum blossom pole footwork, and somehow the inventors of the system mixed up their punches with the kick-pivot actions creating a more solid fist so to speak?

any thoughts or wisdom to be shared?

If you are talking about what I call "Twist Step", there is a link to the plum blossom poles. However, it has more to do with not wanting to move your feet. To illustrate:

If you stand (with feet apart) 90 degrees to your target (his chest faces you, your chest faces the side wall): Draw a straight line from the target through your front foot (one closest to the target) and your back foot. Then try to punch along that line with the hand furthest way from the target (same side as the back foot). Try striking long range without stepping. It can't be done; the spine is not that flexible. "Twist Step" makes it possible.

This also exist in Shaolin systems (espeically with an instep kick to initiate the punch). They emphise the stepping into a cross stance. In the case above, we emphise twisting into a cross stance.

If the above does not describe what you are talking about, I am not clear on what you are talking about.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by HopGar
The footwork I saw is based on bagua, I'll have to go back through the forms and I'll post more later.

peace

There is another called "turning step," this comes from bagua. The two are basicly the same but the attack (intent) is in a different direction.

[HopGar]

ok, so I went back through my drills and here's what I came up with:

The forms I know move in all major directions N,S,E,W, obviously not in that particular order. There are no "twisted stances" of any kind that I can recall.

As for drills, the footwork I have basically follows this pattern:

o o
o
o o

Here's how it works (short version without factoring in pivoting to punch nor the punches at all): step with either the right or left foot to the middle first. Then you move forward by moving the back leg to the furthest forward postion then the leg in the middle to the corresponding place fourthet forward.

To go back, it's the same thing, just moving backwards.
To go to the side, do the same first step forward. The back foot moves all the way forward, the foot in the middle moves to where the back foot was, and you're now facing either the right or left. I remember something about bagua, but this is definitely from the plum posts. The majority of the time we move forward and to the side, rarely ever backwards.

To address some of Diego's other questions:
The pivoting in place is basic to the Hop Gar I learned. When we drill punches with the above footwork, that becomes completely necessary.
The Hop Gar I learned has no kicks above the chest and we rarely use them. Being that TKF Sifu generally had experience in another style, it's very likley they kept their first style and meshed it together with TKF.

I am not familiar with the step Charles described.
As for punches, I remember there were a few:

"sun punch" which strikes in places such as the sternum or shoulder joints vertically with the middle set of knuckles.

The most common punch we used was a fist that strikes anywhere at 45 degree angle with the wrist slightly bent. This fist also uses the middle set of knuckles. Usually this punch is used in conjuction with dropping/ raising the wrist as you strike, creating a whip punch. This works real nicely with a pow choy or cup choy.
Then there is the typical hammerfist.

As for the fist itself, we used a typical fist.

Peace!

[HopGar]

****, the diagram got messed up. It looks like a five on a dice.

peace

[diego]

Originally posted by diego
crap i'm at my moms for xmas dinner but i forgot that article for yall...was in a hurry:)

Palmer answered my original questions through PM so the thread kinda drifted off into general chat...any one wanna discuss stuff?:D

I've noticed some schools who in the TKF world don't like to use kicks, wheras others practise the tornadoe kicks etc...

If any of you don't like to use kicks much in a fight but practise a lot of kicks in your style...why? Me, I always figured the tornado kick helps one to train the basic crane stance shifting rotational power at a more advanced level...meaning I noticed once my tornado kick got good I was capable of punching harder in my rotating crane stance, like I was capable to put more of it all into it!.

Another general question I have is...why do some schools punch with the lama fist with the thumb mounted on the side of the index and others let the thumb cover the index finger....do any of you punch with the shaolin fist with the thumb covering the index and middle fingers?

Happy holidays okay so I just cleared up my basics...my teacher used to be considered as my moms boyfriend and we had a kind of love hate relationship growing up...but now we cool and i consider him my stepdad as he is my little bro's father...I have just been training as a hobbyist but now I'm about to get serious with it...I was shown to put my thumb at my index finger years ago...but I may have been confused and wasn't really shown that....:)

I just asked my teacher the question about the three fist thumb placement and he said his teacher Kaido punched with the lama fist...with the thumb mounted on top of the index....but years later...like a decade later one of the seniors saw that and said what are you doing the thumb rests at the side of the index....but my teacher remembers kaido doing the lama fist!??...some people do the pheonix eye fist with the thumb tucked in behind the index finger so basically the fingertips of the thumb and index finger touch each other but Kaido did his with the lama method with the thumb on top of the index creating a tight squeze point fist more suitable for dim mak imo/ime.

I asked him why the thumb at the side of the index vs the lama fist...he figures with the non-lama fist the thumb could likely get caught on clothing etc while in close combat...and added to that I figure it just makes a more compact fist...we didn't get to spar it as he was in a hurry but this is definatly something i'm going to be working on:)

K now i'ma peep yall replys.

[diego]

Originally posted by CharlesDaCosta
If you are talking about what I call "Twist Step", there is a link to the plum blossom poles. However, it has more to do with not wanting to move your feet. To illustrate:

If you stand (with feet apart) 90 degrees to your target (his chest faces you, your chest faces the side wall): Draw a straight line from the target through your front foot (one closest to the target) and your back foot. Then try to punch along that line with the hand furthest way from the target (same side as the back foot). Try striking long range without stepping. It can't be done; the spine is not that flexible. "Twist Step" makes it possible.

This also exist in Shaolin systems (espeically with an instep kick to initiate the punch). They emphise the stepping into a cross stance. In the case above, we emphise twisting into a cross stance.

If the above does not describe what you are talking about, I am not clear on what you are talking about.

Okay this makes a lot of sence, except for this "This also exist in Shaolin systems (espeically with an instep kick to initiate the punch)." if you are twisting with your left and hitting with your right which foot does the instep kick...is that a front or round kick?:)

[diego]

Originally posted by HopGar
ok, so I went back through my drills and here's what I came up with:

The forms I know move in all major directions N,S,E,W, obviously not in that particular order. There are no "twisted stances" of any kind that I can recall.

As for drills, the footwork I have basically follows this pattern:

o o
o
o o

Here's how it works (short version without factoring in pivoting to punch nor the punches at all): step with either the right or left foot to the middle first. Then you move forward by moving the back leg to the furthest forward postion then the leg in the middle to the corresponding place fourthet forward.

To go back, it's the same thing, just moving backwards.
To go to the side, do the same first step forward. The back foot moves all the way forward, the foot in the middle moves to where the back foot was, and you're now facing either the right or left. I remember something about bagua, but this is definitely from the plum posts. The majority of the time we move forward and to the side, rarely ever backwards.

To address some of Diego's other questions:
The pivoting in place is basic to the Hop Gar I learned. When we drill punches with the above footwork, that becomes completely necessary.
The Hop Gar I learned has no kicks above the chest and we rarely use them. Being that TKF Sifu generally had experience in another style, it's very likley they kept their first style and meshed it together with TKF.

I am not familiar with the step Charles described.
As for punches, I remember there were a few:

"sun punch" which strikes in places such as the sternum or shoulder joints vertically with the middle set of knuckles.

The most common punch we used was a fist that strikes anywhere at 45 degree angle with the wrist slightly bent. This fist also uses the middle set of knuckles. Usually this punch is used in conjuction with dropping/ raising the wrist as you strike, creating a whip punch. This works real nicely with a pow choy or cup choy.
Then there is the typical hammerfist.

As for the fist itself, we used a typical fist.

Peace!
5.........4
...-3-....
1...........2

is that what you mean Hop?...what i get is to move forward you would be in a right leg wieghted crane stance(sidebow) with your left at 1 and your right at 2...the left steps to 3 avoiding an opponnents centerline and then the right steps to 4 and the left follows to 5 so you are in another right side crane stance!?

to go to the side from right crane..basically you start at 1 and 2 facing 12 and then if you stepped your right to 4 and your left to 2 you would be facing 9 0'clock in a right crane stance right?

edit- Kong what is the middle set of knuckles?:) and by dropping/raising the wrist you meant like as in snapping a wet towel at your friend type of action right...just trying to visualize and realize but I think I got you:)

[diego]

Originally posted by CharlesDaCosta
I love to kick so....

In both the Shaolin and Lama tradations all three thumb orientations exist. Some shoalin based schools call "the lama fist" the Ram's head fist.

I have seen all three in different forms, and have had a TWC teacher tell me that they serve different purposes (fist dynamics) and what you call "the lama fist" is the most advance of the three.

ON another note (CLF):

I met a guy that had completed the Hung Gar system and the CLF system. He told me that CLF basicly means "monk's style". We don't know which type of monk the style came from. It could have even been a Lama. But today, every thng comes from Shaolin.

I had told the guy that his CLF looks simular, that is why I got that responce.


http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/4Theoverheadpunch.jpg

pic's 3-4 shows the twist step:)

I saw in a shoalin black tiger book by i think don dreager the lama fist throughout the set shown...and pretty sure I have seen it elsewhere...I know wing chun focuses on the bottom three knuckles with the thumb covering the index and middle fingers...but i also read at an advanced level they actually hit with the whole fist!?

would you tell me more of the uses of the three thumb placements in relation to Lama style Charles?
cheers James

[diego]

hey yall the second punch in application one shows the twist step in action!

they ask that you save these and watch them to save bandwidth, so, do so if you can

http://xenetix.net/files/lama/

[Simhanada]

Diego, you are supposed to strike with the thumb joint in the mounted position, that is strike with the thumb knuckle/joint as a striking surface, strike, compress, rake.... many so-called dim-mak applications, and its useful in grappling as a carotid (as an example) compression/fulcrum. It does support accelerated phoenix-eye fist strikes, and allows more general striking surfaces to be available in the 'Lama' fist configuration. There's plenty of pics and explanations about this on my website.

[HopGar]

Diego,
That's basically right. Its just a stepping pattern, and basically the only one I remember.

I'll explain it more later, I gotta run to work.

peace

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
... "This also exist in Shaolin systems (espeically with an instep kick to initiate the punch)." if you are twisting with your left and hitting with your right which foot does the instep kick...is that a front or round kick?:)

The left (front) foot -- as you move into cross stance, the step becomes an instep kick followed by a striaght punch with the right hand. In this case, the thought is not twisting, it is kicking with the instep (around the arch).

Some use the instep kick as a block (to check your opponents leg as it lifts to kick).

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/4Theoverheadpunch.jpgpic's 3-4 shows the twist step:)

I saw in a shoalin black tiger book by i think don dreager the lama fist throughout the set shown...and pretty sure I have seen it elsewhere...I know wing chun focuses on the bottom three knuckles with the thumb covering the index and middle fingers...but i also read at an advanced level they actually hit with the whole fist!?

would you tell me more of the uses of the three thumb placements in relation to Lama style Charles?
cheers James
The pictures in the URL are a little hard for me to see (I am getting old). However, it does look like you are right.

WC hits with the whole fist by rolling it about the wrist. In fact, every punch becomes multiple strikes (bottom top, top bottom).

The S*** black tiger style uses the same fist (you call the Lama Fist). They call it the Tigers paw (I think it has been a long time).

Have you experimented with the fists yet? if not do so! Then post your findings. For now, I will tell you one point to examine, the shape and geometry (that is the orientation of all knockles, both reqular and those of a lepords paw -- Shaolin). Press the fists against something.

[HopGar]

"hey yall the second punch in application one shows the twist step in action!"

I didn't see any twist step nor stance, it looked like the guy just kind of jumped in to that last stance. The apps were interesting. Lama Form 1 is Hop Gar's chyrn wye kern for future reference (Diego, now you'll get what I'm talking about whenever I mention chyrn wye kern.) Lama Form 3's motion is the first part of pow choy.

Diego, I reread your post, the stepping is right on except that you skipped moving the left to 3 before moving the right to 4 and the left to 2 when turning. Basically we trained the foot patterns moving both clockwise and counterclockwise to train both sides. After you get the motion down, try throwing pow choys with each complete movement (when you're back in a bow stance) foward, backward, at each change in direction. The key is to do the motion quickly so as to evade the opponent's attack quickly.

I can't explain the snapping motion, its kind of like the motion your wrist makes when flicking an opponent in the eyes with your fingertips. If you can imagine that and then think of a punch hitting like that, that's basically how our pow choy and cup choy hit. Gotta do alot of strength training on the wrists first so they don't break. Also gotta practice hitting like that to understand how it works.

That's all for now, folks

peace

[diego]

Originally posted by Simhanada
Diego, you are supposed to strike with the thumb joint in the mounted position, that is strike with the thumb knuckle/joint as a striking surface, strike, compress, rake.... many so-called dim-mak applications, and its useful in grappling as a carotid (as an example) compression/fulcrum. It does support accelerated phoenix-eye fist strikes, and allows more general striking surfaces to be available in the 'Lama' fist configuration. There's plenty of pics and explanations about this on my website.

Hey Steve, I was going to ask you about this actually:) One thing I'm curious about is, say when you do hook punches like sow choy (inverted backfist) do you use the lama fist or the index fist...I haven't had a chance to spar it yet, but I'm wondering if the lama fist thumb placement could get in the way while doing hooks...I was shown to do sow choy with the back of the knuckles, and Kaido has like a ridge fist-hook punch but I can't remember if I'm suppossed to use index or lama fist, but the ridge fist basically follows the motion you use while doing the mounted thumb hook, but I'm pretty sure the thumb is at the index and you hit with the ridge hand section of the fist!?...gonna find out, but I'm curious about your guys methods.
Cheers
James

[diego]

Originally posted by CharlesDaCosta
The pictures in the URL are a little hard for me to see (I am getting old). However, it does look like you are right.

WC hits with the whole fist by rolling it about the wrist. In fact, every punch becomes multiple strikes (bottom top, top bottom).

The S*** black tiger style uses the same fist (you call the Lama Fist). They call it the Tigers paw (I think it has been a long time).

Have you experimented with the fists yet? if not do so! Then post your findings. For now, I will tell you one point to examine, the shape and geometry (that is the orientation of all knockles, both reqular and those of a lepords paw -- Shaolin). Press the fists against something.

so horizontal punch in crane stance

with the shaolin grip (thumb over index and middle fingers) I find I get more focus on the middle knuckle

with thumb at index I find it equals out on the index and middle knuckle

with lama I find that I get more focus on the index which leads into doing leopard or pheonix eye fists

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/lastfourhands.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/firsttwostances.jpg

I notice Staples does the pheonix eye and dragon head fist with the thumb at the index but I like the feel of the thumb used lama style for the Pheonix eye fist...not sure which one I like more for the Dragon head middle knuckle pressure point fist, as the index presses down on the middle finger either way so I don't notice much differance if I do it with lama or how Staples shows it with the index-thumb method.

"WC hits with the whole fist by rolling it about the wrist. In fact, every punch becomes multiple strikes (bottom top, top bottom)."

can you elaborate further on this? I didn't fully understand what you meant:)

did you get a chance to view the video links?

[diego]

Originally posted by HopGar
"hey yall the second punch in application one shows the twist step in action!"

I didn't see any twist step nor stance, it looked like the guy just kind of jumped in to that last stance. The apps were interesting. Lama Form 1 is Hop Gar's chyrn wye kern for future reference (Diego, now you'll get what I'm talking about whenever I mention chyrn wye kern.) Lama Form 3's motion is the first part of pow choy.

Diego, I reread your post, the stepping is right on except that you skipped moving the left to 3 before moving the right to 4 and the left to 2 when turning. Basically we trained the foot patterns moving both clockwise and counterclockwise to train both sides. After you get the motion down, try throwing pow choys with each complete movement (when you're back in a bow stance) foward, backward, at each change in direction. The key is to do the motion quickly so as to evade the opponent's attack quickly.

I can't explain the snapping motion, its kind of like the motion your wrist makes when flicking an opponent in the eyes with your fingertips. If you can imagine that and then think of a punch hitting like that, that's basically how our pow choy and cup choy hit. Gotta do alot of strength training on the wrists first so they don't break. Also gotta practice hitting like that to understand how it works.

That's all for now, folks

peace

I may be wrong but it looks like a twist step to me....if you look at the Staples tech he twist steps out with his right and grabs with his right then turns into a overhead...in the video he twist steps in with the right and turns and hits with the right...turning in place!?? could be wrong tho:)

What is the middle set of knuckles?

[diego]

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/photopagestars.html

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/blocking_kicking.html

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/hands.html

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/photopagespiral.html

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/12Longfists_Of_HopGa.html

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/12LFContinuation.html

Okay so here is the Grey Hop Gar book by Michael Staples and David Chin for copywrite purposes:) to see the tech's more clearly just right click on properties as your mouse touches the selected pic, and then cut and paste the tech's url into your browser and then you can see the individual pictures...if it's still to small then just save the pic and open up one of your photo altering programs which lets you zoom in or out to get a better view of the pic'.

Would yall be so kind to translate the english names into chinese?
I'm looking for the chinese charachters, and the pronounciation with the english translation of what it means.

So, chin choi= arrow punch= vertical or horizontal straight punch...I'm unsure of what the chinese charachters for chin choi is, and it would be nice to get the mandarin and cantonese versions of the spelling.:)

[HopGar]

I can't help with the kicks and hands but as for punches:

Chop punch = cup choy
Crossover punch = Chyrn wy kern, then high dan ji, then a hook
Shovel and Lion Punches = chyun choi variations
Hook punch = chyun choi to uppercut

None of those stances look familiar to me.

That's all I can give you

peace

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego ... I'm wondering if the lama fist thumb placement could get in the way while doing hooks In a long range hook, the joint of the thumb is used like a knuckle. This is one of the reasons why, one of my TWC teachers said, it is a more advance fists. It is for more senior students, not beginners. It is more difficult to trully master.

The "thumb-index " punch is more for beginners, because (I think) it is easier to make and it is a little safer.

My Goju Ryu teacher told me the "Lama fists was commonly used (I think he was talking about Karate) but they all chanced except for maybe one or two styles.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
so horizontal punch in crane stance
I have never heard a bow stance called a crane stance before (That does not mean you are wrong) please ask your teacher (if he says yes, then remind me every now and then if we talk about stances). Otherwise, I have heard the light leg (wieght on back foot, front heal up) stance being called a crane stance.


with the shaolin grip (thumb over index and middle fingers) I find I get more focus on the middle knuckle

with thumb at index I find it equals out on the index and middle knuckle

with lama I find that I get more focus on the index which leads into doing leopard or pheonix eye fists.
You are on the right track, now make the fists as tight as you can, and try to feel the differences in pressure-dynamics (from knuckle to elbow).


"WC hits with the whole fist by rolling it about the wrist. In fact, every punch becomes multiple strikes (bottom top, top bottom)."

can you elaborate further on this? I didn't fully understand what you meant.
Using any or all of the fist (WC orientation), press your pinky and ring finger knuckles aganst a wall. Notice that there is a gap between your index finger knuckle and the wall. Now roll the fist so that the index finger knuckle is pressing, and the gap is at the pinky knuckle.

I like the videos. I had thought about trying to create a web based school using the sames method, but I gave up. It looks good seeing someone else making it work. I provides good motivation.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
I may be wrong but it looks like a twist step to me....if you look at the Staples tech he twist steps out with his right and grabs with his right then turns into a overhead...in the video he twist steps in with the right and turns and hits with the right...turning in place!?? This is for HopGar too. "The winding stance foot work" are all based on cross stance. The wieght should be light enough to transition between feet. The steps are twisting, turning, and sweeping.

Twisting step is a turning out the front foot; To go into cross stance by twisting alone.

The turning step is advancing and turning on the front foot to end up in a cross stance.

The next one is sweeping step (back or front foot).

I never really learned all the Chinese names, my main TWC teacher was a rich scholar from Hong Kong.

[diego]

Originally posted by CharlesDaCosta
I have never heard a bow stance called a crane stance before (That does not mean you are wrong) please ask your teacher (if he says yes, then remind me every now and then if we talk about stances). Otherwise, I have heard the light leg (wieght on back foot, front heal up) stance being called a crane stance.


You are on the right track, now make the fists as tight as you can, and try to feel the differences in pressure-dynamics (from knuckle to elbow).

[B]
Using any or all of the fist (WC orientation), press your pinky and ring finger knuckles aganst a wall. Notice that there is a gap between your index finger knuckle and the wall. Now roll the fist so that the index finger knuckle is pressing, and the gap is at the pinky knuckle.

I like the videos. I had thought about trying to create a web based school using the sames method, but I gave up. It looks good seeing someone else making it work. I provides good motivation.

I'm at the library right now so I can't very well stand up and punch at the wall without looking stupid:) so I have to get back to this later...side bow stance is refferred to as crane stance probably because most of the basic crane punches in the style are from this stance...I've heard that there is a modified cat stance which is called crane stance in the TWC/Lama etc world but the leg is placed differantly than it is in the regular cat stance...will find a pic later.

[HopGar]

"The winding stance foot work" are all based on cross stance. The wieght should be light enough to transition between feet. The steps are twisting, turning, and sweeping. Twisting step is a turning out the front foot; To go into cross stance by twisting alone. The turning step is advancing and turning on the front foot to end up in a cross stance. The next one is sweeping step (back or front foot). I never really learned all the Chinese names, my main TWC teacher was a rich scholar from Hong Kong."

I don't recall any kind of sweeping and twisting. Then again, I was only there for about 5 years and Sifu Ku was cutting back on teaching already - I don't even know if he teaches anymore.

I'm not so sure about that "crane" stance. We used bow stance and a high horse stance, nothing else that I recall (unless these come in at a higher level?)

peace

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
side bow stance is refferred to as crane stance probably because most of the basic crane punches in the style are from this stance...I've heard that there is a modified cat stance which is called crane stance in the TWC/Lama etc world but the leg is placed differantly than it is in the regular cat stance...will find a pic later. OK I just want you to check. If that is what your teacher calls it that's what it is. There is no need for a pic. It is done in the book you got posted.

[diego]

Originally posted by CharlesDaCosta
OK I just want you to check. If that is what your teacher calls it that's what it is. There is no need for a pic. It is done in the book you got posted.

How it went in Kaido's school was...you would learn KaJuKenBo for the first year or two or until Kaido liked you enough to put you into his advanced classes, and then you would start on the Crane stuff...he had his students sparring full contact within the first two weeks, but to get through the beginners class you had to go through a lot of physical conditioning...Kaido was all about scrapping!.

He taught using english terms as that's how the kajukenbo works, and by the time you started to learn the Crane stuff you would already know things like horse stance and vertical fist and outward block etc...you would already know how to streetfight/kickbox basically and then he would teach you the Crane...so they just called the sidebow crane stance:)

If I press my fist against the wall with the bottom three knuckles connecting, using the shaolin fist, I find the tension rests on the outside of the forearm, wheras if I connect with the index and middle knuckles, using the index thumb placement, the tension is at the inside of the forearm...if I do the Lama fist and connect the the index knuckle, the tension is inside the forearm, but it feels like it only goes from index
knuckle-to-wrist-to-the-middle-of-the-forearm, wheras the other two knuckle placements goes from the knuckle all the way to the elbow.

I know wing chun which punches with the bottom three knuckles drives the punch with the triceps muscle, wheras when you use the index and middle knuckles the shoulder drives it with a bit of help from the bicep...I don't focus on the bicep, I just connect from shoudler-to-fist while keeping the arm relaxed...and I notice wing chun trys to use minimal shoulder action and drive the punch from the elbow!!?

Any thoughts/tips?:)

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
... If I press my fist against the wall with the bottom three knuckles connecting, using the shaolin fist, I find the tension rests on the outside of the forearm, wheras if I connect with the index and middle knuckles, using the index thumb placement, the tension is at the inside of the forearm...if I do the Lama fist and connect the the index knuckle, the tension is inside the forearm, but it feels like it only goes from index
knuckle-to-wrist-to-the-middle-of-the-forearm, wheras the other two knuckle placements goes from the knuckle all the way to the elbow.

I know wing chun which punches with the bottom three knuckles drives the punch with the triceps muscle, wheras when you use the index and middle knuckles the shoulder drives it with a bit of help from the bicep...I don't focus on the bicep, I just connect from shoudler-to-fist while keeping the arm relaxed...and I notice wing chun trys to use minimal shoulder action and drive the punch from the elbow. WC trys to use as little of the body as possible because the goal is speed, reactions at the speed of a single nerve impulse. Beginners in WC only focus on the bottom three knuckles.

Next execise: requires a partner. 1. punch between folded arms (horz.). 2. ... vertical forearms. 3. Use all known blocks and grabs aganist each punch.

[HopGar]

To me, Hop Gar is based on waist and shoulder power generation due to the basics, fighting stance and the necessity of pivoting to throw punches. (in our system I remember basics as pow choy, chin choy, chay sen, cup choy, bin choy) There is very little, if at all, reliance on power generation via biceps and triceps. Again, we had no special fist from what I remember; I did notice that the lama fist y'all were talking about, specifically hitting with the thumb knuckle, works real nicely with Hsing-I's crossing technique.

peace

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by HopGar
To me, Hop Gar is based on waist and shoulder power generation due to the basics, fighting stance and the necessity of pivoting to throw punches. (in our system I remember basics as pow choy, chin choy, chay sen, cup choy, bin choy) There is very little, if at all, reliance on power generation via biceps and triceps. Again, we had no special fist from what I remember; I did notice that the lama fist y'all were talking about, specifically hitting with the thumb knuckle, works real nicely with Hsing-I's crossing technique.

peace

This correct but it is better to say power generation is from the floor up (based on feet, waist and shoulder due to the basics, fighting stance and the necessity of pivoting to throw punches.)

[diego]

hey yall, sorry I haven't posted much this last week, I've been hella stressed trying to meet overdue rent payments but now that's all cleared up so hopefully this weekend this thread can gain some new momentum.

don't have much time to post examples now, and i think tonight i'm going to catalouge all of kaido's techniques...i was doing some of kaidos drills the other day without any hand motions, like just running through the footwork and i noticed that it is very much like some of the bagua cricle walking drills I have seen, so I would like to get into that a bit...also Kaido does go off with the pivoting footwork, I just didn't know what i was looking at until Palmer told me how the footwork is done in the Grey Hop Gar book. My plan is to post all the differant pivot/bagua steps in kaido's tech's and get yall insights etc.
should post them tommorrow night or saturday at the latest, and will try to head over to my moms and get that dang article scanned for yall:)
cheers

[cerebus]

No one can read what you just wrote, wolfen. You're on our "ignore" lists .:p :p But hey, everyone's on your "ignore" list too, so you won't even be able to read this, will you? :D

[HopGar]

Cerebus, his post said I'm right.

Wolfen, from what I recall, pow choy isn't thrown at a 45 degree angle. If you're in a bow stance, as you pivot on the balls of your feet, you bring your back hand up and over in an arc with your whole arm stretched out and hit then go back the way your arm came- that's pow choy. It's a great way to KO someone or at least really hurt their faces. I've never heard of that technique, we usually used it to smash limbs, i.e., knock kicks down, hit the nose, on the way back uppercut and hit whatever you can.

[HopGar]

Oops, I mean't cup choy. sorry.

[diego]

Wolfen, I've seen that elbow drop you are talking about in my style:)

in a hurry right now but does anyone know the name of this footwork, or train similar to it?

left bow stance facing 3 and you double palm opponent, left claw low to groin and right claw high to face....now your weight shifts back onto the right rear leg, and you swing/pull back your left leg counterclockwise motion to 12, and pivot on your right so you are now in a left cat stance facing 12, and you would do a left tansao/palm up block to the inside of the opp's right arm and slip a left claw to his face...so you attack an opponnent at 3, and then pull back and defend against an opponnent at 12!.

this is from like kaido's 5'th or 6'th set, and he uses this swingbackleg and pivot in some of his technique drills...sound familiar?

[JAZA]

So, is it very similar to CLF?

[CharlesDaCosta]

Boy, it is good to see this thread is still going. I just got a new job (first one in almost a year) so it is been ruff (getting up at 5 am, and getting back home at 7 p.m) the job is a two hour train ride from home.

Also I am starting to teach again so I hope to post more later.

I am wondering, how many sifus have develop short forms (25 tech. at most), and are teaching them instead of the long forms?

I have taught off and on since the early 80's and I have never had a student learn the first from well enough to keep it. And my teacher claims that most White Crane sifus only know the first form.

[cerebus]

I've heard of this happening. Apparently the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Association shortened and condensed the forms that they taught because they thought that the art might die out since it took so long to learn. I'd be very interested in seeing the old traditional forms and the condensed forms side by side to see what was changed.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by cerebus
I've heard of this happening. Apparently the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Association shortened and condensed the forms that they taught because they thought that the art might die out since it took so long to learn. I'd be very interested in seeing the old traditional forms and the condensed forms side by side to see what was changed.

Actually they didnot shorten the forms, at least not noticably -- unless you are talking about after 1990). What the actual "SHORTING" was surposed to be is an elimation of many repeated techniques/parts -- instead of doing a group of techniques 4 times on each side -- doing the group only once on each side.

I trained under them and Pak Hok International Athletic Association from 1979 to the late 80's. I have met white crane stylest from other groups who told me that the first form had been split up into two forms. This is what I am basing my info on.

Now, the change I am talking about is much more drastic, going from 300 (or 400) tactics to about 50 at most. For example: making every line in the old from (including returning to point of orgin) a seperate form. OR making up new ones all together and save the old ones for the execptional students.

[cerebus]

Yeah, that's actually what I meant. I'd heard about the repetitious movements being cut back. About how many empty hand & weapons forms are taught by the association in Hong Kong?

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by cerebus
Yeah, that's actually what I meant. I'd heard about the repetitious movements being cut back. About how many empty hand & weapons forms are taught by the association in Hong Kong?

It has been a while but I think it is the standard 24 forms plus others if you have the time and .... (very few know all 24, in fact, I hear that most Sifus today only know the first form).

[cerebus]

Someone can become a sifu knowing just the first form? What form is this and how long is it?

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by cerebus
Someone can become a sifu knowing just the first form? What form is this and how long is it?

We call it recipricating steps (enter & exit steps) I forgot the Chinese name. Our version has about 350 to 400 moves (training it every day for about two hours a day -- I learned it in 3 months -- but it was slopy) -- I heard it normally takes 2 solid years to learn, and some take 3.

Some of the other school (or Feds) have divided it into 2 forms.

I should add that in most schools, you had to trained for 3 to 5 years before you were taught the form. I don't know how it is today. I try to teach to all that pass the first real test. That is not based on how long you have been with me.

[Sima Bai]

Charles - which of the HK White Crane guys does yur stuff come from? My very first MA was from a disciple of Kwong Benfu.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by Sima Bai
Charles - which of the HK White Crane guys does yur stuff come from? My very first MA was from a disciple of Kwong Benfu.

I can't remember off the top of my head but the name was something like (Ngar Yak tong, I think is the spelling -- I am about a third or 4th Generation from him -- I think - it has been a few years since this question was posed).

If you really want to know, correctly, I could email my Sifu (he is a professor at Hong Kung Univ. so he is easy to find).

Also, if http://www.geocities.com/whitecranefist/index.htm has updated their lineage chart, it will be there. I sent it to him a few years ago.

[diego]

hey yall, i just got a 5month free rec pass from my work, and gonna go swimming a lot!!!:)

don't lift weights, but i'm gonna take full advantage of their facilities, and i'm curious what yall TKF stylists would work on in your weight lifting routine...i'm thinking don't worry about the pec's as pushups cover those nice, so i'm gonna work on building my back and neck and legs...back and legs cuz that's where the seed fists come from and work in general, and neck cuz well if you got a big neck it's hard to knock you out in general...prolly won't even do too much bicep and tricep work, just gonna burn the forearms and hands so i got a tighter tool to punch you with...lol i'm gonna look like a freak big legs and back and neck, small chest and upper arms etc.......i'm just gonna focus on those areas from a body builders perspective, but of course do overall full body strengh conditioning, and hella gonna work the treadmill...what do yall do to enhance your lama style?

[cerebus]

Aaaah. Mr. DaCosta, that would be Ngai Yoh Tong. From what I understand, he was the chief instructor for the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Association in the 70s/ 80s. Is he still alive and teaching?

[Sima Bai]

According to the lineage chart, Ni Wo Tang (Ngai Yok Tong) is also a student of Guang Benfu (Kwong Boon Fu). It also says Ngai is US based now.... Guang is still living in Canada I think...

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by cerebus
Aaaah. Mr. DaCosta, that would be Ngai Yoh Tong. From what I understand, he was the chief instructor for the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Association in the 70s/ 80s. Is he still alive and teaching?

I think you are right, my sifu told me once back in the '90s. At the time I was training I did not care about lineage, so if we had discussed it more, I just can't remember, plus I have never met any one from my sifu's line. As a consequence, I know nothing of my sifu's line, only that it is connected to one of the Kong kong Athletic associations.

I have no clue if Ngai is still alive, but if you really want to know I can findout. Today when I talk to my sifu we don't talk much about kung fu (I have a bad tendancy to go on and on, when that subject is brought up).

I think my sifu just followed a familly tradition, he is really a scientist. I think for him, kung fu is just part of his artistic expression and a way to stay in shape. He did teach us a lot though (8 forms in total - 4 weaponds included - not counting the exersise forms e.g., slaughtering/metior/shooting star fists). Disciples of Chan's line complained about this.

I know more about Chan Hok Fu and his line because I met him and trained under one of his students. I was not accepted as a student in Chan's line (thought I was treated as one) because of my connection to the other line (They knew my sifu and his grandmaster). My sifu sent me to them.

[cerebus]

Yo Diego! I'll be mailing that book out to you tomorrow. I've also included a surprise bonus I think you'l llike. Enjoy! :D

[diego]

Originally posted by cerebus
Yo Diego! I'll be mailing that book out to you tomorrow. I've also included a surprise bonus I think you'l llike. Enjoy! :D :D
Peace