Here's my xmas present for you

[David Jamieson]

Ok all you southern pracs, here's my christmas present for you.

enjoy.

[Pork Chop]

Nice...
I figured I'd rather have the real thing though. ;)
I'll let u know how it goes. hehe

[David Jamieson]

the real thing? is there such a thing? lol :p

strawberry fields forever

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Seeing Lam Si Jo doing this form in a medium height stance, I'm wondering why the current Hung Ga training emphasizes such low stance work?

The stance height in this form looks about the same as what we practice in CLF.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think Lam Sai Wing is the founder of the Hung Gar system. But that's one of the older attempts at illustrating the set. Those were all drawn from photos.

There are other photos of Lam Sai wing, in fact there are a great deal of them scattered round. Lot's a textual information too and it is said that it was LSW that popularized Hung Gar into more of what we see today.

Huang Fei hung was real famous for sure, But LSW was downright public with his Fu. :p

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

In my lineage we call all of the real old guys Si Jo as a sign of respect. Just trying to show respect to you Hung Ga players.

Even though I know that is not the literal meaning.

Any idea as to my question?

[South Paw]

I've been told that GM Lam Sai Wing is using "medium height stances" because of his old age. Photographs were taken later in his life.

Forms are usually done in a lower stance.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

So you're saying because of his advanced age he could no longer do the low stances?

How old do you think he is in these drawings?

Anyone have any idea?

[David Jamieson]

That set of drawings were done before he was really advanced in age. There is another set of photos of him when he is much much older and he is wearing the black gard with the white frog button front and the huge studded belt. Those are still pretty cool pics of LSW though.

this set is from when he was considerably younger than that and are the same illustrations as found in the books he himself had published. He wrote those books between '17 and 23 according to one pretty good source. So that would've put him between 57 and 63 years old in those photos.

He could still do the low stances, but I think the form was not exactly static when demonstrated by LSW and therefor the stances are more apropo to a demonstration of teh set as a fighting set. Or the applicable postures one would use with teh actual application of the techs within.

Now, 57 to 63 ain't that old for a kungfu master, just check out Chiu Wai or his brother or even Wing Lam who is no spring chicken either lol.

Will a young man do them differently? Yes. Everyone gives their Kungfu their own flavour to add to the overall taste.

Deep stances are quite often for training purposes only really.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
Seeing Lam Si Jo doing this form in a medium height stance, I'm wondering why the current Hung Ga training emphasizes such low stance work?

The stance height in this form looks about the same as what we practice in CLF.

The low stance thing...yahhh...well...It's a relative thing. Relative to what you're doing.
For some, the theory is train low so you build strength. Some it's train low, fight higher. Some others (whom I agree with) train different levels: high, medium, and low because the height of your stance will vary with the application and intent being expressed. These drawings, and remember please that these are an artitist's impression, are somewhat "neutral" in stance.

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

before start to train choy lay fut , i 'd have a hung gar base and one of the things i'd have more problem to adjust was the bow and arrow stance . in clf is performed with 2 feets in a same line . but in hung gar you perform the stance very open . the clf version is for have more speed and fast reaction . hung gar version search a more solid base for his tiger techniques .
there is some schools that combine hung gar and clf formsd in a same teaching program . i wonder how they adjust this details .

[David Jamieson]

these are an artitist's impression

well actually they are tracings. :p where paper is laid over a photo and the image from the photo is traced.

so they aren't really an artists impression.

People who start kungfu are always sitting in grueling stances that are at the maximum lowness. When they learn their first form, they again continue with the low stance. (except for styles where high stances dominate the style...such as wing chun, but these styles put more emphasis on learning to fight quickly)

The actual expression in a set is different and low stances require more energy from the performer and subsequently don't have as much effectiveness for fighting because you can't give that power to force issuance and instead are using it to build your frame.

anyway...I'm sure there will be continuing arguments about shape and depth etc etc as well there should be. Keeps us all thinking about how wecan make our fu better for us as individual practitioners without spoiling it with each of our owns nherent laziness. :p

[MasterKiller]

My X-Mas present to you.... (http://www.fredericks.com/images/9/92121_50_itm_a_4700.jpg)

[David Jamieson]

ooooo..thanks MK.

This is where oneupmanship pays off for you.
kudos!

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]well actually they are tracings. :p where paper is laid over a photo and the image from the photo is traced.

so they aren't really an artists impression.



Oh.
Sorry, I must have been misinformed as to the origin of the illustrations. :(

[hasayfu]

Why are the stances not the super low you see in many schools?

1) Many schools go too low. Even for stance training, you want to get the point where the rooting is greatest. If you are too high or too low your root suffers. It's all about the baby bear.

That said, the drawing still show stances that are slightly higher then optimal. Here are some theories:
1) Photography in those days didn't have instant flash. You had to hold positions for a considerable amount of time. My guess is, many pictures were taken so he might have wanted to conserve energy

2) I am told that LSW had a hernia during the photo shoot. That could explain some stuff.

Notice though, that he is able to get low on some of the shots.

Thanks Kung Lek for putting it together,

[South Paw]

hasayfu,

You just said it the right way in option 2. That's what I've heard before.

[Tiet Sow]

Garra De Tiger--

Funny to find your post at this time for me---I am also making the Hung Gar to CLF transition w/that same issue. Thought you may appreciate some company with that------

Kung Lek & Master Killer--

Thnx for the gift (pics)--- feel bad I didnt get you guys anything--

Tiet Sow
(Tom)

[unixfudotnet]

Thanks :)

Is there a repository somewhere of forms?

[David Jamieson]

I don't think you want to put forms up your bum...

oh. sorry, you said "repository" lol.

actually, cyberkwoon has a ton of pdfs on a few styles, plus videos and other goodies covering several asian styles including many shaolin forms.

you need to contribute to get stuff though. So be prepared to post useful stuff and in return you can access the downloads which have mucho stuffo.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
The actual expression in a set is different and low stances require more energy from the performer and subsequently don't have as much effectiveness for fighting because you can't give that power to force issuance and instead are using it to build your frame.
On the contrary, low stances are incredibly effective for fighting. If you always train in a good, low stance, your body will begin to adjust to the pain and physical positioning. You will develop a lot of power, particularly if you do some form of hand training. Your base (legs) begin to seem like they are strongly connected to the ground. Power is more easily generated in the twists and turns that are the techniques practiced. The result is a matter of how much effort you are willing to put into it.

It is also excellent for transitioning between height levels. You can move very fast from a standing position to one on the floor and back up again. Just train for it, and power will come.

Someone asked about Hung gar and Choy Li Fut transitions. I just train in low stances for both of them. Well, Choy Lit Fut stances are a bit higher, but I still do not stand up where my legs are barely bent. In my training, I have benefited so much from low stances that I cannot imagine getting anywhere near my progress without it.

It hurts, yes, but why would anyone want to hold onto the pain? Just let it go, concentrating, for instance, on what the hands are doing. Be patient (yes, even when it hurts and feels like you cannot stand anymore), and results will come with consistent, porlonged practice.

Doug M

[David Jamieson]

doug-

The training stances build strength and stability. Train low, fight high is a rule of thumb in stand up fighting. Most kungfu, if not all is stand up fighting.

can you get in low and strike? sure? will you get tired in a perpetual low stance, you sure will.

I have yet to meet a kungfu teacher who says, fight from a low stance. Instead, I have found that most are unanimous when they say, train low to build strength and let that strength explode from a more natural position.

wide doesn't mean low, high doesn't mean narrow and unstable.

If you are consistantly in a deep horse of bow or whatever, you are indeed wasting the enrgy you could be using to launch your stuff or to move.

Outside of compliant drills and forms, I would like to see where someone actually consistantly stays in a low stance and proclaims that it is an advantage. I have never seen this and I'm not exactly a spring chicken at this stuff.

I train low too. After a while, it doesn't hurt so much anymore as your body adapts to its' new way of framing itself. But I will not watse one drop of energy holding a deep stance when someone is rushing me. If I gotta go low, fine, but I ain't staying there and I'm not fighting out of a low stance.

...anyway, wanted to clarify my point and disagree a little at the same time. :p

[unixfudotnet]

power is internal and also a by product of proper technique.

stand low/high doesn't matter much, as long as you are comfortable and aren't blocking yourself. granted I am a tai chi guy, but it is portable to hard styles as well.

there is a right way, and there is a wrong way, and your body will tell you the difference if you listen :)

I am still learning to listen as well :)

[Doug]

Kung Lek,

Well, you mostly do clarify your explanation, but disagreement is not really applicable, given that I never said one MUST ALWAYS fight with a low horse, bow, scissors, cat, or hanging horse stance. I responded to your claim, which states that low stances are not as effective for fighting. Does one always walk in a low stance? Does one always run in a low stance? No, people don't; and I never claimed that. I did, however, state that low stances are effective in fighting. The advantages are quite obvious. I just pointed out two of them. Nowhere do I say one should hold a low stance throughout a violent encounter, but using such a stance would be very beneficial at times.

Other than that, there is not much else to say.

Doug M

[Pork Chop]

kung lek

been out of town for work. I realized reading my words that i wasn't too careful in chosing them. hehe
what i meant to say is that instead of seeing the form on a poster, i decided to actually learn the form from a close friend.
i'm still just starting and it'll probably take a year; but i've wanted this form for a loooooong time.

[David Jamieson]

why? because of it's ancient shaolin-ness? :p

[SimonM]

Bumping this thread up for the .gif.:D

[Pork Chop]

honestly?

I wanted a good kung fu form with some solid qigong training that I could use as a warm up to keep my body in better health and be better able to deal with the constant abuse of full contact training.

I also think it'd be great as an added resource to pull stuff from- something to give me a little more "flair" or "flavor".

I train with some tien shan pai (northern) guys and notice that they've all got similar (good) kicks, a similar movement style, and pretty good throws. They have a pretty consistant "flavor" when they fight, even if they stop doing forms & only train "san shou" for extended periods of time.

I've always liked hung gar and wanted to learn it.
I've also always wanted something to stick with long term; which is hard when you move a lot.

[gwa sow]

christmas present, you forgot hanu.. chanu... um kwanza.

not a hung gar man but i think its lam sai wing doing Fu Hok

http://lib.nanhai.gd.cn/local/HuHeShuangXing/ZhengWen/page_01.htm

some other stuff if anyone reads chinese
http://lib.nanhai.gd.cn/local/HuHeShuangXing/LinSiRong/page_01.htm

http://lib.nanhai.gd.cn/local/HuHeShuangXing/page_01.htm

[David Jamieson]

indeed! the whole book scanned in too! cool.

what a lovely thing the interweb is.

[gwa sow]

now, for those chinese lessons so i can read that stuff.:mad:

[PM]

gjffk photos were taken in 25th year of Chinese republic, i.e. in 1936, when Grandmaster Lam Saiwing (born in 1840) was already old (76) and sick, so he does not go to low stance. check out http://www.hungga.org/en/gallery/lsw_gjffk.htm to see the original photos from which were the drawings made of.

older pics (probably form the beginning of 20th century), where Grandmaster Lam is performing fu hok seung ying kyun and tit sin kyun show low stance.

as Kung Lek said, in HG, we train low, but not always fight low.

all the best

PM

www.hungga.org

[Pork Chop]

Actually; I thought that the set that book was drawn from came more from the series of photos that included the technique pictures found here:

http://www.hungkuen.net/gallery-lamsaiwing.htm

I mean I know I could be wrong and I've no experience with Lam Sai Wing kung fu; but if anything those other pictures look more like the drawings.

[David Jamieson]

bmore-

The pics showing LSW in the link you provide are the ones that were traced to make his 3 books.

THe ones from later in his life are not the same as when he wrote his books.

[PM]

the gung ji fuk fu kyun drawings were made of the pics from 1936, the drawings of fu hok seung ying kyun and tit sin kyun are based on the pics from the benning of 20th century (whem Lam Saiwing was cca. 20-30 years younger).

by the way, it is a common misconception that those 3 books were written by Lam Saiwing around 1917 (?). not true:

a) Lam Saiwing did not write any of those books - they were written by his students Jyu Yukjai, Lei Saifai and Jeung Saibiu
b) 1917 - not true. fu hok seung ying is form 1920's, gung ji fuk fu kyun from 1936, tit sin kyun - i am not sure, but i think from 1950's.
c) ...

PM

www.hungga.org

PS: enjoy the most complete Lam Saiwing gallery online at http://www.hungga.org/en/gallery/lsw.htm including some rare pics, never seen before

[SimonM]

PM thanks! Beauty find!