Wooden BJD (Opinions)?

[Phil Redmond]

http://little-raven.com/RS/MA/BJD.html
In some WC lineages the blade should be the distance of the elbow to the end of the closed fist. Regardless of lineage differences these blades are sold in 1/2" increments from 11" - 15" which should accomadate all preferences. I personally am looking into finding some Do that can be used to spar with as well. Maybe some sort of plastic or foam covered blade. I was also thinking about using white or colored chalk (or some other substance), on the blade edge to show whether or not you've been cut. ;)
Phil

[Vajramusti]

Phil-

the wooden blades are great for getting the motions down right.

Sparring is a different matter. Carina used to -but no longer-
maes bjd fom non metal materials that one could spar with.

In these eternal debates-sparring with knives has it's limits. You can develop bad habits by constantly working on blocking knives.
A good knife man can cut you when you block them.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Phil-

the wooden blades are great for getting the motions down right.

Sparring is a different matter. Carina used to -but no longer-
maes bjd fom non metal materials that one could spar with.

In these eternal debates-sparring with knives has it's limits. You can develop bad habits by constantly working on blocking knives.
A good knife man can cut you when you block them.

Joy, you could be right but it would better than simply doing forms in the air. Duncan Leung uses a type of Do dummy to practice on. Didn't the Samurai use bokken and shinai (sp)? to prepare them for the real thing?
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

BTW Joy, I've been in and survived a "real" close quarter bayonnet fight with NVA Army regulars using my Marine Corps pugil stick and covered bayonnet training. The simulated training worked for me thank God. ;)
Phil

[YongChun]

I find it a real challenge to use the wooden Butterfly knives against someone wielding a wooden boken even if they are a relative beginner with the boken. It definitely sharpens your skills. Some care has to be taken of course for safety if you are not into the dog brothers thing which I'm not.

We used to do the knife form, then do some knife drills for footwork, and to develop some strength in the wrists. Then we would practice knife against knife using rolled up life magazines with tape around them. Later someone made some knives using a wooden spine and then firm blue mat material for the blade folded around the wood so that they looked like knives, similar shape. Then did some drills and also free style sparring. Then we did knife against boken drills and went onto some freestyling with that. We were getting pretty good at all this stuff and then I tried it against an Aikido teacher at not too fast a speed but he was versed in the use of the boken. The cuts and flow and angles and changes were very different from our amateur simulated use of the boken so it proved to be a real challenge and test for the knife use. Most of the time the boken won. The tables would be turned with spear against the boken though provided you prevented the spear from getting chopped in half.

The ideas developed for knife against sword, such as angles and footwork, timing and distancing were translated over to sparring empty hand against kicking.

That was in the 1980's. In the 1990's until now nobody was interested in this kind of training.

Ray

[Tydive]

Marker (http://sharkee.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=53&osCsid=353abd220c1f29e214b063db67ad37ca)

Custom rubber blades (http://www.bognerdrillblades.com/) (Click on custom option).

Here are some links for you if you want to go with practice blades. There are quite a few marking systems out there that you can add on to pretty much any custom blade you have made. I guess you could add the marker to the wooden ones but I would still be worried about doing damage to myself / partner.

Another thing that most people just don't get with blades is that you don't want to use much force. One of the things I do with those who really want to understand blades is buy a big hunk of tritip or roast and have them stab / slash it with a live blade. It gives folks a whole new understanding of serrated vs non and just how little pressure it takes if you use the blade right.

One reason blades are so hard to defend against is that you can apply deadly force at the speed of your set up jab.

Ray,

Various weapon types vs others depends so heavily on the individuals skills that I don't even know how to begin to rate them. All I can say is learn your system to the best of your ability and seek out experts in other weapons to workout with. Do NOT work weapons vs unskilled weapon users if you want to get better, only do that if you are teaching.

[Phil Redmond]

>>I find it a real challenge to use the wooden Butterfly knives against someone wielding a wooden boken even if they are a relative beginner with the boken. It definitely sharpens your skills. Some care has to be taken of course for safety if you are not into the dog brothers thing which I'm not.<<

Hey Ray, The same would apply to the BJD vs. a Katana. Times have changed that's why I advocate realistic training.
Phil

[Kevin Bell]

Hey Phil,

These are the type i have seen dont personally use the wooden ones but here they are.

www.woodendummies.co.uk Place is called Pagoda imports and sell dummies and poles as well.

With regard to the chalk thing to tell if you've been marked. We use a similar system but with a felt marker pen to show people about knife attacks and how offen they can get tagged trying to defend themselves..

Kev

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks lots Ty and Kev. That's the kind of input I was looking for. Now I know where to get the marker also. I'm really going to look into getting some custom BJD made. BTW, does anyone trian with one BJD as well? We do. You might lose one during an encounter.
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is a little bit off track...but...about 4-5 years ago I started working with some poly-carbonate tonfa (what the NYPD use).

They're very hard to come by anymore - bought them at the time in a local martial arts store here in Brooklyn, NY.

And I adapted the Butterfly Sword techniques to them...so for instance - I thrust/strike with the pointed end as a you would do with the tip of the sword.

Eventually we progressed to actually using them to defend against a baseball bat swing - as well as other types of weapon attacks.

It works well...and is a legal weapon. I keep a pair of them underneath the seat of my car...and another pair underneath my bed.

And of course my wife laughs everytime she vacuums in the bedroom.

[Kevin Bell]

Good post Victor and not off track at all. Afterall we cant really walk around with Butterfly knives but adapting BJD principles onto the sticks i like and have tried that same track of thinking.

I dont keep anything in my car except a tin of windscreen de-icer has a shooting range well outside the killing arc of lets say a baseball bat, and should it go to court at least i can justify having that stuff in my car can the geezer with the baseball bat??? More a pre- meditated response to an imagined/percieved threat.

Apologies Phil for hyjacking you're thread.

Kev

[sihing]

My Sifu has applied the Butterfly Sword techniques to stick fighting. We have a stick disarming drill, which is allot like a predetermined chi-sao drill per say. In general we use 8 angles, downward diagonal, reverse downward diagonal, horizontal inward (from outside body to inside), horizontal outward (inside body to outside), upward diagonal, reverse upward diagonal, straight down middle, and thrust forward. We also apply the BFS technique to hands movements, meaning the BJD form can be done/applied empty handed, utilizing palm strikes and open hand movements, chops, side chops(backfist like movements), dbl pak sao's, gaun/pak sao combinations, etc... I'll have to get some video clips set up of it all.

James

[KPM]

I have some experience in western martial arts training, which is very weapons focused. We can take a lesson from how they train weapons. Traditionally, at least two versions of the weapon were required....a "sharp" and a "waster." The "waster" was a wooden version of the weapon used for training in the air, sparring, and striking the "pell" (which was a wooden post much like a mook yan jong). The "sharp" was of course the sharpened metal version used for "cutting practice." Cutting practice was seen as very important, just as it was by the Samurai. Many often used a "dull", which was a version made from lower quality untempered metal that was used much like a waster. In more modern times many include a third version of the weapon.....a padded version used to make sparring safer.

The type of BJD most often available to us is the "dull." The problem is that these are often made of aluminum and are not good for anything other than training in the air. You can find "sharps", but the purpose of a sharp is for cutting practice, and these blades are often not made of high quality steel and won't hold up to very heavy use. My group makes "wasters" out of kitchen cutting board material. It is easy to do and they hold up very well. You can work the material just like it was wood. Cut it out with a jigsaw...shape it with a rasp....finish it with sandpaper. The problem with using wood to make a waster that is going to make contact with anything is that the wood...even good hardwood...will develop "dents" at contact points. These "dents" will eventually produce small sharp edges that will snag and scratch your partner. You can sand them down frequently, but then your knives end up looking that krap. The cutting board material is virtually indestructable. I say "virtually", because my training partner managed to break one while striking the pell. But he was really going at it. :-)

One has to be creative if you want to progress on to cutting practice. You can make targets out of rolled newspaper or magazine, plastic soda bottles filled with water, small melons, etc. It is important to cut materials that are stationary on a stand as well as suspended in the air, because this gives a very different feel. Cutting practice can open your eyes to lots of things you may not consider otherwise....such as the amount of force and follow thru required to really be effective, the importance of blade alignment, the subtle differences in power generation compared to empty-hand techniques, etc.

As far as sparring, its tough to adequately pad a weapon. In my opinion it is better to pad the person and then limit the target areas.

Anyway, few people take training with the BJD this seriously. We haven't trained it much this way. But in the not so distant past, we trained this way both with western longswords, and with bowie knives.

Keith

[t_niehoff]

Phil,

I make my own wooden BJD with 1/2 inch plywood (once you have the pattern they're easy to whip off) and then I sand the edges. They last for a while but will break (so keep the pattern).

I've sparred and continue to spar -- both knives and pole -- with the best weapon guys I can find -- kenjutsu, escrima, and the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism -- those guys down at the park that train in medeival weaponry; and if you can ever take a seminar with a guy named John Clements do it -- you'll thank me). KPM is correct about the protective equipment -- wear it. There is no other way to learn or develop skill in the weapons.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
I make my own wooden BJD with 1/2 inch plywood To use as a floatation device when you're "swimming"? :D

[curtis]

Hi Phil

how about useing polyelethine sheeting the make the do.

Its more expensive than plywood but it works like wood. and will take a lot of dammage without showing it.

the most common use for poly. is for cutting boards.
GOOD STUFF!

If you want thay would not be hard to make.
Just buy the stuff and cut and sand. Simple.
have a good day.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by sihing
My Sifu has applied the Butterfly Sword techniques to stick fighting. We have a stick disarming drill, which is allot like a predetermined chi-sao drill per say. In general we use 8 angles, downward diagonal, reverse downward diagonal, horizontal inward (from outside body to inside), horizontal outward (inside body to outside), upward diagonal, reverse upward diagonal, straight down middle, and thrust forward. We also apply the BFS technique to hands movements, meaning the BJD form can be done/applied empty handed, utilizing palm strikes and open hand movements, chops, side chops(backfist like movements), dbl pak sao's, gaun/pak sao combinations, etc... I'll have to get some video clips set up of it all.

James
That's cool James. I'll post some clips up too.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by curtis
Hi Phil

how about useing polyelethine sheeting the make the do.
Its more expensive than plywood but it works like wood. and will take a lot of dammage without showing it.
the most common use for poly. is for cutting boards.
GOOD STUFF!
If you want thay would not be hard to make.
Just buy the stuff and cut and sand. Simple.
have a good day.
Duh...what was I thinking. I've seen your work. I should have asked you for ideas. I'll see you when I get back from Puerto Rico.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Phil,

I make my own wooden BJD with 1/2 inch plywood (once you have the pattern they're easy to whip off) and then I sand the edges. They last for a while but will break (so keep the pattern).

I've sparred and continue to spar -- both knives and pole -- with the best weapon guys I can find -- kenjutsu, escrima, and the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism -- those guys down at the park that train in medeival weaponry; and if you can ever take a seminar with a guy named John Clements do it -- you'll thank me). KPM is correct about the protective equipment -- wear it. There is no other way to learn or develop skill in the weapons.
Thanks Terence,
Phil

[timchun]

short shinai (sp?) used in kendo, the ones that are about a foot long, are good. They have a blade length relatively close to BJD and are very durable, although theres no guard. Protective gear is essential when using them also

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by timchun
short shinai (sp?) used in kendo, the ones that are about a foot long, are good. They have a blade length relatively close to BJD and are very durable, although theres no guard. Protective gear is essential when using them also
Thanks for the input. My student has a padded pair used for sparring. They're OK but I'd prefer to have some made to the shape of the Do. I'd like to be able to use the guard and hook.
Phil

[timchun]

Hi Phil.

Have been thinking about this thread, and figured since I am employed as a cad designer for a router cutting company I might as well make use of the tools I have access to (especially since the boss is away!). I managed to knock out some knives from rigid PVCand they seem like they'll be up to the job, the product is hard enough without being too brittle, so I'll have a play with these and let everyone know how they go. There are a couple of other materials I'd like to try also which may be more suitable but we'll see. Just an experiment at the moment but it could pan out to be a viable option for sparring :)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by timchun
Hi Phil.

Have been thinking about this thread, and figured since I am employed as a cad designer for a router cutting company I might as well make use of the tools I have access to (especially since the boss is away!). I managed to knock out some knives from rigid PVCand they seem like they'll be up to the job, the product is hard enough without being too brittle, so I'll have a play with these and let everyone know how they go. There are a couple of other materials I'd like to try also which may be more suitable but we'll see. Just an experiment at the moment but it could pan out to be a viable option for sparring :)
Hi Timchun,
I'd be willing to buy some from you depending on the shipping cost from NZ to the States ;)
Phil

[timchun]

Hi Phil.

Sounds cool, we'll see how we go. Auckland to Detroit is indeed quite a ways so it may be more economical to go through Curtis as it sounds like we're heading down the same path with this one anyway.
Also I attended a seminar by Tom Sottis down here once and talking to him he says they have used lipstick on the blades of their knives sometimes to indicate strikes. This method could be trouble though as turning up at home 'after a long night of training' covered in lipstick might not be such a good look :D

[mortal]

I don't think keeping a pair of weopons under your front seat is a good idea. I mean legally speaking. A friend of mine had a golf club under his front seat and was arrested. It had to do with the fact that it was under the front seat. It was veiwed as intent.
Laws could change but regardless.

I don't think you would need them with your skills anyway. lol