7* forms (again)

[sayloc]

I have already asked this question once but I got a list of the forms for the whole system.

Mr. 108 gave a reply to a recent post that sei lo bun da was not an original mantis form. (I take his word to be the truth).

Keeping this in mind, could someone give me a list of 7* forms that have not been obviously adopted from another system?

It seems the other systems like the plum flower seem to have less adopted sets. Just wondering what is considered the core sets of seven star

Thanks again

[yu shan]

Are you beginning to think there are no core forms in Qi Shing?

[sayloc]

Starting to think that way:)

Maybe there has been so much piled on no one knows where it started now.

Yushan, Have you learned a sei lo bun da from the Pong Lai organization yet? I have one that is supposed to be 7* but it has alot of kicks.

Maybe you could find out about those core sets for me? From what I have read your master is one of the best sources of information of northern mantis.

[yu shan]

Can you give me some more info? I do not know this form. But I will add this to my questions to ask Shr ZhengZhong. It is a pity that people do read these hungry questions, but do not share. Maybe try the MQ!

[Tainan Mantis]

The form you are talking about is 4 directional Strikes or somethng like that.

Jim, You likely have seen it.

You have seen the video where I do Lipi in a show?
I think you can see some monks in the background watching.

Another brother does this form. It is more like the Mizong version.

This form has always had a lot of kicks.

It has certain PM moves in it though.

[sayloc]

Tainan,

Thanks for the sa lo bun da info.

Would you happen to know what are considered the core mantis sets for seven star? Stuff that was not adopted into the system.

Thanks

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Sayloc,
I have been considering posting a possible chronilogical order of the forms creation date, but mostly it is just educated guessing.

As far as 7* I think the 2 oldest forms might be beng bu and lanjie.
As far as PM is concerned it is along the following lines.

Connected Fist. Which is a form of the 18 families. If you have seen the 18 family list then you get an idea of what is in it.

It is called 8864. If 8 Elbows is truly one of the oldest forms then this is it. But I can not find any way to link the two.
This form is also broken up into 3 sections, like some versions of 8 Elbows.

9981
I have an extremely well detailed manuscript which is fascinating as it goes into theory and application of the form. It is mostly a connection of 7 Manuevers of PM and 8 Unyielding(ba gang).

6636-this may be luanjie, but I have no way to link it up also.
This contains all the detailed information on fanche and much was quoted by WHF in his books.

So as far as I know these above 3 forms do not exist anymore. If they do I do not know who has them.

The oldest terminology of PM, regardless of style, exists within;
8 gang-12 rou
7 Long-8 Short
18 Families
8 Strike-8 No strike
The song of connected fist
The song of 7 Manuevers
Dodging deceiving Double Hand Fastening-12 fists
etc.
These are most of the well known old sections.
For the most part they are written in a single unified language as if they are one style.
The odd thing is that style does not follow any modern version of Mantis writing style.

For example 18 families lists 18 techniques or methods.
This is how they are written in old manuscripts of forms. But in later versions the writing style changes completely.

The challenge is further compounded by the wide accaptance of WHF renaming of the names.

So now if you ask which technique is Yellow Dragon Shakes its Tail it is hard to answer as I can(and maybe nobody can) not find the old name in any manuscript of a form that still exists.

In other words, it becomes increasingly difficult to identify which moves of modern forms are from that small group of original forms.
One thing is certain. There were few moves and few forms.

One of the best links can be found in Wah Lum's Iron Door Bolt(Minus the single finger which likely a modification of double plucking).
This form typifies the type movement and length of a form of old PM.
At least according to these old manuscripts.

[Tainan Mantis]

The title of one of the chapters says a lot,

"7 MANUEVERS GATHERED WITHIN CONTINUOUS FIST MAKE THE 18 COMBINATIONS"

What follows is part of that short chapter.

"What are seven manuevers and 18 combinations?
It is 7 types of manuevers that take the techniques of 18 styles and combine them into a way that continuously interconnects without end."

[sayloc]

Tainan,

Thanks for that detailed break down! It was great.

Wold you consider these following forms some of the the core seven star forms that are unique to seven star or if another system does them they were borrowed from seven star? Trying to weed out the northern developmental sets.

Bung Bu
Shiba Sou
Dougang
Cha chui
Bai yuan Chu Dong (or all of the white ape sets)
Da jiashi
Xiao Jiashi
Da Fanche
Xiao Fanche
1 - 6 Zhaiyao (some say 1 -3 for 7*)
Ba Zhao
Tie bi Shou (is this similar to the WL form you mentioned?)
Meihua lou
Meihua shou
Tangllang tou tao
Tanglang chu dong
Black tiger sets
Rou zhong quan
tou jie
xan zhizhuan lin zhang
yao ling
baht zao
louhan gong
luanjie

I would be glad to compensate you for your time.

Thanks

[mantis108]

Nice one, Tainan. But I would caution on that being heavily based on the "Shaolin Authentics" notion. Still...

I am a bit press on time. So I would offer a sonnet (translation)

Shaolin Short Strikes Manuscript:

Shaolin Short Strikes 3 important points,
8864 gates, 9981 changes.
The preson who knows the gates and path, thus able to begin.
The fist of turning wheel and gear, 6636
8 strikes and 8 no strikes, 8 hards and 12 fluids,
7 stance collecting and connecting fist, totally is 18 combinations/groups.
Entire body 12 fists, dodging deceiving Double Hand Fastening/knocking.

It doesn't make much sense in English but the sonnets is like tune in Chinese. So...

more later...

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

It is my understanding that "Sei Lo Bun Da" and "Chahp Chui" were from the same source and brought into our style together. They share the same long range and "rigid" flavor although the former seems to focus more on kicks while the latter on hands. So if you want to exclude "sei lo bun da" from the core list of 7 star forms, then you probably should also for "chahp chui".

I think in general, it is quite difficult to say what is a core form and what isn't. It has already been discussed which forms are considered oldest, which forms were added by which generation. So then depending on which lineage you consider, core forms could be different from one line to another, even within the same branch of PM.

Personally, I find each of the forms that were passed down to me to have some unique characteristic that adds to my knowledge. Although there are certainly subsections within forms that are similar if not identical, each form focuses on different techniques or concepts. So I tend not to separate the forms as core PM or "northern developmental" sets since even forms we can label as the latter bring value to my training.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Sayloc,
I am sorry to say that I am not qualified to answer your question.
Supposedly Li Sanjian's student wrote down a manuscript of forms that he would pass on.
Someday that list as well as all its details will become public.

At that time we will have a better idea.
Most all the forms you have written I am familiar with and they all have a strong PM characteristic.

Tie Bi SHou I don't know.
It is not tie men suan.

It might be tie chuan.
This form was also called tie men kou bi.

I know that it is not a PM form though it is similar.
It is quite short and starts with 2 straight punches(or a grab and 1 punch).

B. Tunks did a good job of listing old PM forms some time back.

The only form that still exists and is written like the old style is Luohan Gung.
You would think someone would translate that long(69 page) manuscript into English.

As well as the WHF supplememntal notes which are even longer.


108, funny you say Shaolin Authentics. This is the term recorded in WHF's book among other places. So that puts some 7* weight behind it.

[sayloc]

tainan,

Thanks for your time and straight up answer.

I had the idea that the origins of the seven star were a little more clear. I should not be surprised, since most of us dont know the names of our great grand fathers. We probably know more about the family tree of seven star then we do of or own family.