Elbow locking/joint pain during backfist

[[~T~]G]

Hi everyone,

I need some advice on this...everytime I whip out my backfist I get a slight joint paint, something feels not quite right. I try to do them as fast as possible and extend fully, at which i feel a click, which is very uncomfortable.

Im trying to loosen my fist until im about to strike, at which i tense it up and retract it back quickly.

Im doing all this in the air, am I overextending?

Should I be punching against a bag or something? Please help! :(

[AndyM]

You risk permanent joint trauma, painful injections, and probably surgery if you continue.

Try a strap for 'Tennis Elbow'.

Never fully extend the joint without resistance (Pad or whatever).

If someone is making you practice like this, and it's not of your own volition, they deserve to be shot!

[Vajramusti]

A backfist is not necessary in wing chun. There are several better alternatives.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, you can easily use better tools than a backfist in wc. Or if not better, certainly as good. I don't really use them.

But in answer to a couple of your points, doing it in the air is asking for trouble. Of course everyone practises in the air, but something that is already causing you damage is better off not practised in the air at all!

The chances are, unless you have a particularly weak joint, you're doing it wrong. I can say this safely because most martial arts offer techs to damage an opponent, not yourself! :D

In the fut sao, which is the closest equivalent to a backfist in my wc, you should be pulling the fingers back as you make impact, and striking with the hand at a slightly upward angle, which prevents the elbow from locking out completely. With a backfist i think you7ll find a slightly downward angle helps...

And if it's hurting that much, hitting a bag or something won'thelp yet. try slowly getting the movement right first in the air, then when you can speed up without hurting move on to the bag.

[Vajramusti]

Hi Mat-
some apparent differences. What you are calling fut sao possibly
is fun sao to some---in a slt section right after the gum sao's?

The motion imo is quite different from the backfist in the details.
Ofcourse IMO again.

[Vajramusti]

Hi Mat-
some apparent differences. What you are calling fut sao possibly
is fun sao to some---in a slt section right after the gum sao's?

The motion imo is quite different from the backfist in the details.
Ofcourse IMO again.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by [~T~]G
Hi everyone,

I need some advice on this...everytime I whip out my backfist I get a slight joint paint, something feels not quite right. I try to do them as fast as possible and extend fully, at which i feel a click, which is very uncomfortable.

Im trying to loosen my fist until im about to strike, at which i tense it up and retract it back quickly.

Im doing all this in the air, am I overextending?

Should I be punching against a bag or something? Please help! :(
Joy is correct. Don't do backfist. It's doesn't work against Wing Chun and has no real power.

Regards,

[t_niehoff]

That pain is caused by poor mechanics in your "backfist"-- try not locking out/straightening the arm fully (this puts too much stress on the joint; allow a slight "bend" to remain). If you continue to feel pain, give the joint some time to heal.

And, don't listen to all those who want to tell you how *you* should use WCK -- find your own way.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


For all of those anti-"backfist" people in this thread I will tell you that Leung Jan taught a form of a Back Fist (reverse line power) strike in Koo Lo.


Maybe its just not as popular now a days but indeed WCK and it is very effective if trained properly. Its all about the individual using it.


Regards,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by t_niehoff

And, don't listen to all those who want to tell you how *you* should use WCK -- find your own way.

Terence makes a good point, but there's always a better alternative to a back-fist in Wing Chun that doesn't violate the centerline and structural principles. Since my advice has been discounted, I'll take that as freedom to further hi-jack the thread. :p

FWIW, I have used a back-fist in many situations, including the street and tournement. It's very satisfying when you connect, but even in karate, it was considered weak. I've been struck by the back-fist, but never knocked out by it. It probably can work sometimes if you connect to the temple.

Have you ever seen a back-fist used in MMA UFC types of events?

Anyone with Wing Chun background will likely not be struck, and if you do connect, the technique will probably have lost some steam before doing so. If you meet someone against whom the backfist works, it'll probably serve you repeatedly against them.

Use whatever works for you. I don't mind.

Bruce Lee liked the backfist. That all some folks need to know. :D

Regards,

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Have you ever seen a back-fist used in MMA UFC types of events?....Use whatever works for you. I don't mind.... Bruce Lee liked the backfist. That's all some folks need to know. " (John Weiland)

Got to agree with John (and the others) about this.

And let me add something else:

Have you ever seen a backfist used in a real streetfight?

In certain instances it may be a high percentage shot to connect with (as it was back in the days of Karate point tournaments)...but there's not enough return on the investment, imo, in terms of POWER.

A spinning backfist can be dlivered with power - but WAY too much body motion and distance to travel before it connects.

From the Wing Chun point of view...the horizontal chopping ridge of the hand strike (along with lop sao) is a good move - especially when the opponent has been set up and the throat/neck is the target...but that's as close to a backfist as I like to get.

[old jong]

Originally posted by t_niehoff


And, don't listen to all those who want to tell you how *you* should use WCK -- find your own way.


Yeah!...Why lose times and money with Wing Chun anyway?...Do your own stuff! ;) :D

[mortal]

Backfist- Too much wasted movement. No economy of motion. Totally telegraphed. Just looks cool.

My two cents.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


Lots of interesting views on the so-called backfist. First we have to address some stuff. For Jing Sun (straight body) Wing Chun I can agree that the so-called back fist looking tool is not the most powerful as its mainly arm whip. The Sun Punch would indeed pound much harder and more direct. But! While the bone placement may be a little different from the Fak (which is Palm Down) (and the so-called back fist which would be palm facing toward you) how much more or less body power is used to drive each in with Straight Body methods?

With regards to Leung Jan's teaching of this movement I can tell you a lot of short body rip power is used to drive it home and the better you get (like anything) the more subtle it is. The idea of it being not as direct is rediculous as it is not used for the typical line of attack that Sun punch would be used for! It is indeed more direct than the Sun Punch for its line! Telegraphing something is about too much build up before delivery/acceleration starts. If you telegraph a back-fist you are telegraphing your other moves!

For our art (Leung Jan's PSWC) there is not doubt that back line striking (note I said "back-line striking" and not back-fist)is used more often than a lot of other stiking tools. Why? The body position and angling. Hence why we are called: Pin Sun (side body) Wing Chun. Leung Jan felt it was important enough to dedicate a lot of training toward it for his Pin Sun art and if you are explained/shown the usage then you will see how it fits!

Gotta run!


Regards,

[[~T~]G]

Thanks all for the info.

I'll try not to fully extend my arms when I do my backfists :P

However, I'll keep on doing them since, they are used in Gulao Wing Chun....I mean, when u have ur side body stance , your lead fist is in a perfect situation to strike.

Also, don't u lot train your backfist when you do lop sau, as a variation?

Those who are saying backfists are bad, what do you do instead of them?

"have u seen backfists used in MMA UFC etc?"
- no, but then I could ask have you seen someone do chain punches?

[Tydive]

[~T~]G,

Not just backfists, any strike in the air where you fully extend can cause serious damage to your joints. Oh, and if your instructor does not know this then get another one.

[t_niehoff]

You have some who will tell you "the backfist is not WCK, so don't use it." Then you have others that say "it is WCK because some ancestor taught it, so use it." Sorry, but both views are wrong IMO -- WCK is not like a lego set, with a predetermined number and variety of pieces that you are limted to and that you must put together in a certain set way for it to work. A better analogy is that WCK is more like geometry, where they give you a few fundamentals (axioms) and once you understand them, you can use those to derive all kinds of (new) things.

Many say Yip Man didn't teach the backfist, yet I have pictures of Wong Shueng Leung and other of his notable students using it. How can that be? Becasue they weren't slaves to WCK, and didn't see WCK as a lego set. They took the fundamentals, came to understand them from fighting, and found their own way.

Victor, the gwa choi (backfist) has its place (its advantages and disadvantages; you just need to know when to use it).

Tydive, I straighten my arm all the time and in 20+ years have never injured my joints (whether hitting or missing). It all depends on the mechanics involved.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Terence,


I am not going to debate with your views as we just think differently and thats cool. I will comment on this part of your post to Vic tho:

Victor, the gwa choi (backfist) has its place (its advantages and disadvantages; you just need to know when to use it).


I do not think these guys are talking about the Gwa Choi (hanging blow) with the top to bottom drop/whip. I believe they are talking more about a side angling back type fist which is more like a Fak with the palm facing your chest. Gwa Choi has more of a hammering down effect on your opponent where as the so-called back line fist has more of a out to in swinging power.


Just some stuff I was thinking of when you wrote Gwa Choi. Both are good and both have their place!


Regards,

[t_niehoff]

Hi Jim,

Yes, I understand that many traditionally use gwa choi (hanging punch) as being vertical in nature; others use that term for the "horizontal" backfist (the James Yimm Lee book, for example). No big deal.

[Tydive]

I straighten my arm all the time and in 20+ years have never injured my joints (whether hitting or missing). It all depends on the mechanics involved.

And when somebody obviously does not have the correct mechanics and is getting very bad or no instruction it's helpful for them to know that they are doing it wrong.

With all the full contact 100% energy knock your head off fighting that you do I would have expected somebody to have broken you of that habit by now. :p

[Mr Punch]

Sorry Joy, I meant fuk sao. Was studying very hard for a Japanese exam last week, so ended up losing my English and I can safely say my kungfu terminology took a bit of a break!


t niehoff
try not locking out/straightening the arm fully
t niehoff
I straighten my arm all the time and in 20+ years have never injured my joints (whether hitting or missing). It all depends on the mechanics involved.Yep, those mechanics would be not locking out or straightening the arm fully. As you, Tydive, and myself have said.

I have a friend who always locks his arms out with so far seemingly no lasting damage and that's the way he was taught. I think he is in a minority. If you have pain locking out, strange-squiggly-name, don't do it.
John Weiland
Terence makes a good point, but there's always a better alternative to a back-fist in Wing Chun that doesn't violate the centerline and structural principles. I would agree there's often a better alternative, but that if your short power is good your back fist should not violate centreline principles. Especially if you are from a school that believes the centreline is 360 degrees!!!

...even in karate it was considered weak...That goes for most of kungfu...! it's a good job I don't usually ask karateka their opinion or I would give up kungfu!

Have you ever seen a back-fist used in MMA UFC types of events?Constantly. Most recently in last weekend's K1, Remi Bonjasky, even Botha (who is primarily a boxer... didn't see him being too concerned about it violating principles of directness) and the Thai guy whose name I forget. There's also Genki Sudo, who admittedly is very unorthodox, Irmatz, who admittedly largely sucks and a number of other top fighters from UFC, shooto and Pride. Sometimes it's spinning, sometimes it isn't, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I would class it as a bit low percentage, but then I don't really train it. Quid pro quo.
UWC
Have you ever seen a backfist used in a real streetfight?
John Weiland
I have used a back-fist in many situations, including the street I've never seen it, but I've never really seen biu jee in street fights either. Doesn't mean it isn't going to work. In fact, I would think that something well-practised but uncommon in streetfights will often work.

Also, I've seen someone swing a hatchet and someone else a pool cue, and someone else a chain, and someone else a stool, and someone else a bottle etc etc... at someone's head, but I've never used one in WC. Sometimes there is little crossover between streetfights and wingchun, in terms of comparison of technique. Furthermore I would hope this to be the case!
squiggle
Those who are saying backfists are bad, what do you do instead of them?
UWC
From the Wing Chun point of view...the horizontal chopping ridge of the hand strike (along with lop sao) is a good move - especially when the opponent has been set up and the throat/neck is the target...but that's as close to a backfist as I like to get.I agree with UWC on this.
me
fuk sao

[sihing]

Originally posted by Tydive
With all the full contact 100% energy knock your head off fighting that you(Terence) do I would have expected somebody to have broken you of that habit by now. :p

LOL...

[kj]

Originally posted by Mat
I have a friend who always locks his arms out with so far seemingly no lasting damage and that's the way he was taught. I think he is in a minority.

Fully extending is different from hyperextending; full elongation of the arm is different from locking or hammering the elbow joint back against itself.

Presumably, this also relates to Jim's comment about the movement in what he calls his "backfist" being similar to that of fak sau. (To me, I don't apply a "backfist" per se, but I do have the fak sau type of movement which may take on many forms, and could "resemble" a backfist movement depending on arm orientation and application; semantics perhaps.)


If you have pain locking out, strange-squiggly-name, don't do it.

Agreed. Don't "lock" the joint out against itself. Whenever injuring one's own body, stop, heal it, and then find and repair the faulty mechanics.

Regards,
- kj

[t_niehoff]

Ty,

As per my previous comments about not straightening the arm with the backfist, I obviously am cognizant of the "dangers" in so doing. With thrusting motions, like the jik chung choi for example, any bend in the arm will cause a loss of power transfer from the body (body is the hammer, the arm is the nail -- don't want any bend in the nail or you know what will happen when you hit it with the hammer). Of course, this applies when using WCK mechanics, i.e., not exerting body power until after contact with the target.

And, fwiw, even in other methods, like boxing, they sometimes straighten their arms (jab/cross), and again it has to do with power transfer.

[Vajramusti]

Reply to [~T~]G who started this thread. Some opinions fwiw without debaring other POVs.



I'll try not to fully extend my arms when I do my backfists :P

((there are always differences between devlopmental exercises
and adjusting in application to what is there before you. For wing chun punch development I extend my arms- the key is in the details. But in application I extend to the necessary amount for energy transfer))))

However, I'll keep on doing them since, they are used in Gulao Wing Chun....I mean, when u have ur side body stance , your lead fist is in a perfect situation to strike.

((that explains it perhaps- why you are doing what you are doing.
In the Ip Man hand forms and the dummy there are no backfists.
Bruce Lee used the back fist as did his Seattle students- but in the Yim Lee book Bruce pointed out that the back fist was not a wing chun motion. Of course you will and perhaps should do what you are comfortable with.
I find backfists spinning or otherwise asy to block. Also your structure and mine are different- I dont use a side body stance.
Either hand can be the lead hand))))

Also, don't u lot train your backfist when you do lop sau, as a variation?

((NO. Bruce Lee and his Seayttle students- did/do))

Those who are saying backfists are bad, what do you do instead of them?


((Depends on angles. But backfists dont thread needles and small openings very well.. But good luck with your backfist- your choice))

[KPM]

Originally posted by Vajramusti


Also, don't u lot train your backfist when you do lop sau, as a variation?

((NO. Bruce Lee and his Seayttle students- did/do))




--So does Alan Lamb.

Keith

[[~T~]G]

Originally posted by KPM
--So does Alan Lamb.

Keith

Alan Lamb learnt from Joseph Cheng, who also did Gulao WC

[Vajramusti]

Alan Lamb for his own purposes has synthesized four different strands of wing chun-including Lee sing, Joseph Cheng, Paul Lam(leung Shun) and Koo San. Joseph Cheng indeed had the back fist and stood side bodied.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


One thing to know about Lee Shing version of Pin Sun Wing Chun is that even tho they used some side methods as part of their art I can tell you its not PSWC engine. Lee Shing's boys mainly use Yip Man engine/mechanics with their art. Even with their PSWC art which is typically taught after you learn YMWC.


Gotta run!


Regards,

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by [~T~]G
Hi everyone,

I need some advice on this...everytime I whip out my backfist I get a slight joint paint, something feels not quite right. I try to do them as fast as possible and extend fully, at which i feel a click, which is very uncomfortable.




Your body motion must be in a not supporting position for your back fist motion. check your stance and your waist/ hip and your arm/elbow/joins, to see if all motion align. otherwise, some place will crack.

Same old questions, where is the power generated? how is it distribute to the target? how is the whole movement accelerate? does every part of the body join align interm of speed, acceleration, torqe...ect? do you AWARE of all of those components when you do a back fist?

the join or elbow pain must likely be the power is not delivering to the target but stuck in that location due to different tensing intensity, speed, accerelation uniform-city?.....


just a 2 cents