Structure the buzz word of the day

[hunt1]

Many ideas as to what proper stucture is perhaps you can find out by looking outside of WC at other physical activities.This is what i did.Any activity that requires the use of hip,waist,legs and standing should operate on the same basis.
For example after I learned what I now consider the proper stance I applied this stance to golf and softball.My handicap fell 7 strokes.everthing went longer and straighter with less force used.Golf and baseball require the coordinated use of legs hips waist to achieve maximum results.
try using your WC stance to hit a golf ball or softball or baseball.Many WC stances will not provide good results.
Many poor stances have come up with ways to compensate for inherent weakness this does not mean it is a good stance even if the end result is good.
I am using structure and stance interchangeably since they are so intertwined.You really can not have one without the other. Stance is easier to see than structure for most of us.
Structure, a simple test ,during chi sao when heavy forward energy is applied do you need to turn or step or can you remain rooted and sink the energy.If you can remain rooted are you arm and shoulder muscles tense or soft and relaxed,(normal tension).This can be done with a poor stance by the way.
The issue of power is another topic.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I would refer you to the following links and then ask your input after reading them. Keep in mind that this is but one view.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chusauli/martial/articles/articles_root.html

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chusauli/martial/articles/articles_selfdefense.html

Both of the above articles were written by Robert Chu and represent his interpretation. Good reads.

Peace,

Dave

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Folks,

I agree that structure is a buzz word these times, and i also agree that there are many ways to look at it.

Obviously all martial systems come ready to use with theories of form and structure - oftentimes
these theories also have a dogmatic edge to them, as in this is the 'only' way etc etc.

Equally obviously that does not explain variety in structure or indeed of efficiency in form within and between systems which express different dynamics.

A Classical western (Greek) way of understanding form is to consider 'immanence'. The person who expresses form at a particualr moment becomes the 'efficient cause' for the manifestation of an otherwise transcendent 'fom' i.e. one that exists as an idea or concept. The 'ideal form' needs the agency of personal expression in this world and will vary according to the individual who thus expresses it. in that Greek view, no one will ever express perfect form, only 'imperfect instantiations' of the higher transcendent form, to which we both aspire and at the same time are guided by.

But, that's all Greek to some, particularly those who want there to be but one way - all others being somehow false.

The Greek answer to dogma was to appeal to what they called the 'Divine Logos' - the reasoning or logic that ordered the world - similar concept to the Tao in some ways. That's where the dialectic comes in - a way of testing ourselves and our beliefs against higher reason. The Greeks believed that if approached openly and honestly the true 'form' reveals itself. A prerequisite however was a prepardness to be wrong and to learn by it - not a characteristic of dogmatism.

There are many ways of being right and many ways of being wrong - even both together and at different levels. If we honestly and sincerely test ourselves and our understanding - and if the Greeks were right - true form emerges made manifest in the defining moment of 'becoming' a martial artist.

[reneritchie]

Good stuff. I remember at two of the Friendship Seminars, John Crescione (a New York Chiro that does work for the Jets) did basic kinesology tests to illustrate (or at least give a glimpse into) that point. He had people stand normally with an arm extended out at shoulder height, then he pushed down and checked for resistance. Then he did the same test in YJKYM. The theory is that misalignment of body (typically hips overly pushed under, leaning back, etc.) leads to a break down in neurology and kinesology, weakening the body. He did the same test with turned horse as well.

We had 30 or so people in both, and an amazing amount lost significant connection when in their WCK horses. (A couple didn't and in one strange turn, my classmate actually had better connection in his horse than standing naturally ;)

He then did similar test on pain receptors in pressure points. Interesting stuff.

The articles David mentioned show another type of "structure test", where a partner pushed on your sternum while in YJKYM, then in turned horse.

Rgds,

RR

[dzu]

Wing Chun structure is often a buzzword because it is very difficult to express feeling. The more one understands the fundamentals of human movement, the easier it is to relate to specific, physical WC structure. All physical activities have an ideal structure (hitting a baseball, exploding from the starting blocks, swimming, etc.), which moves the body in the most efficient manner for that activity.

WC structure requires more than moving the body efficiently. There are numerous changes that occur during combat and the presence of external force imposed upon one's body is an added factor. Structure is more than just posing or assuming a stance with the back straight, pelvis tucked, and knees bent. This is a static starting point but the only external force acting upon the body is gravity.

IMHO, a better definition of WC body structure is creating a state of static equilibrium where all external forces (gravity and opponent's force) acting upon one's body are neutralized by the force from the ground. Aligning the body is a way to connect the ground with the opponent's force while maintaining one's balance. Refined sensitivty feels the magnitude and direction of the opponent's forces (the vector forces) and the mind guides the body's response and adjustments.

Other MA also seek the same thing, but use different methods. In some cases, they seek alignment to generate force from the ground, but not to receive it.

Dzu

[reneritchie]

**** Dzu, there's that gong sound again! Very nicely put. Hope we get a chance to play again soon. 8)

I salute you!

RR

[whippinghand]

I agree TOTALLY with everything you wrote. Well put.

[whippinghand]

"typically hips overly pushed under"

hmmm.... this seems to be a recurring theme in Chapter 2 of Complete Wing Chun.

[reneritchie]

Well, if you're talking about the "opponents" in the application demos, then perhaps so, but that's the point ;) Otherwise, I'd suggest checking some physiology books on how the spine aligns ;)

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

I don't think one's butt sticking out in behind one's ankle is "structurally sound".

[Steven T. Richards]

Only if they squat to pee... pseudo WuShu wussy style.

[hunt1]

David thanks for posting links to Roberts Tests.Robert opened my eyes to many things in WC.I just threw my test out there because you can have excuses/reasons for not passing his static tests but you will find that if you cant pass his static tests you cant perform the chi sao test.
Not meaning you personally just a general you.