View Full Version : Pull up question
ok, I haven't been able to catch another full pull up since finally getting one a week or so ago. close, but no cigar.
so, which is a better way to train pullups:
A - assisted so you can get the full ROM
B - unassisted, pulling up as far as you can, holding for 2 seconds and then down on a slow 1.
I'm doing B and it seems to have been working but was wondering.....
Chief Fox
12-06-2004, 09:59 AM
You can also do negatives. Use a box or a chair or just jump up into the full pull up position and then lower yourself as slowly as possible. Try to make the lowering last like 10 seconds if you can.
Try it out.
I did a set like that last week. i wasn't as sore as other times.
maybe I shouldn't be associating soreness w/ effectiveness but I do.
Ford Prefect
12-06-2004, 10:38 AM
Negatives are the way to go.
As for soreness, negatives (or the eccentric/lengthening portion of the lift) actually cause the majority of muscle soreness.
IronFist
12-06-2004, 10:41 AM
Yeah, I heard negatives work well if you can't do a full rep.
Would that apply to other exercises as well? Say I can't squat 350 but I could do a negative with it. Could you just use negatives with that weight until you can do a real rep? A muscle is a muscle so why would pullups be any different from squats?
manofkent
12-06-2004, 11:03 AM
Do you have the use of a gym???
I dont know what negatives are, but if u cant do a pull up, try the latural pull down machine so u can set the weight you want.
Ford Prefect
12-06-2004, 11:04 AM
Sure it will. It's just hard doing negatives for the convential lifts. Also, like anything results will dwindle with time and you need to be able to control the decent. You can't just throw 500 lbs on the bar and contonuously collapse under it to eventually be able to lift it. I think Thibadeau wrote an extended article for T-Mag about eccentrics and isometrics with a 4-8 week program for busting through plateau's.
manofkent
12-06-2004, 11:06 AM
What tune have you tabbed on ur footer Oso???
Just played it and the last note is in a diffrent key to the rest of the riff.
FngSaiYuk
12-06-2004, 01:46 PM
Do you have any aversion to doing both?
When I was trying for the one handed pull ups I'd do both assisted & unassisted. I'd do 5x5's of assisted with an additional 10sec effort of unassisted after each assisted. Rest was at 60sec between each set.
At my peak I could do 8 one handeds on my right arm and 5 one handeds on my left. Tho' my right handed did pull up further than my left - I really need to focus on the left side of my body more...
ok, I'll give negative 3 workouts in a row then and see. I don't have an aversion to either.
I've gotten success w/ what I've been doing:
the first time I could barely pull myself up a couple of inches going for '1' and now, 5 weeks and about 8 or 9 workouts later, I can clear my nose but not my chin.
I can easily put mats just out from under the bar and step off.
manofkent:
It's the primary riff from "Flashlight" by Parliament w/ Bootsy Collins on bass.
I think it's supposed to be like that...FTR, I just picked bass up about 2 months ago so I don't really know squat.:D
Radok
12-06-2004, 03:01 PM
Pull up as high as you can and hold, and once you can no longer do that, just do the nagatives. That's what I'm doing to work on a one handed pull up.
Originally posted by IronFist
Would that apply to other exercises as well? Say I can't squat 350 but I could do a negative with it. Could you just use negatives with that weight until you can do a real rep?Sure, but how are you gunna stop being crushed by it at the bottom? That's the problem with negatives on a lot of exercises. Benchpress the same. Deadlift? You could do the eccentric part, but that's the part you're not supposed to do. For most exercises you'd need a couple of spotters to do effective sets of negatives.
Oso, IIRC you can lift 130-140% of your concentric max on the eccentric portion. So maybe do negatives but push it. Unweighted negatives might be easy, so start hanging weights off. E.g. if you can do negatives with say 10lb, you should be able to do the full ROM unweighted. I reckon the full ROM is important because when I approach failure I can still pull up the bottom 1/2 ROM - it's the top 1/2 getting your chin over that I find the hardest part of the lfit.
FngSaiYuk
12-06-2004, 07:22 PM
Y'know, for things like squats and benchpresses, have any of you guys tried using those heavy chains that you drape over the bar and onto the floor? The point is that you're pushing less weight where you're weakest (at the bottom of the lift) and more weight at the top of the lift.
I've used them a few times before, but not enough to really tell if they help much or are an alternative to negatives on those kinds of excercises.
Yeah, I got some chains. Posted about it here too. I used them for several cycles with good success. I dunno if it carried over to my regular lifts but I was using them on squats and bench and lifting near my unchained maxes at the bottom of the lift and quite a bit more near the top. The only problem is you need a calculator or piece of paper and pencil to work out your weights before you start a program. I stopped using them because I train early morning in my backyard and they clank like hell on my power rack. I meant to wrap cardboard around the power rack frame and start up again but I keep forgetting to do it.
IronFist
12-06-2004, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Toby
Sure, but how are you gunna stop being crushed by it at the bottom?
Dude, it's called spotter bars. They're in the squat rack. And yes, it would be a pain in the ass to take the weight off and re-rack the bar up high again after each rep.
Oso, IIRC you can lift 130-140% of your concentric max on the eccentric portion.
Holy sh.it is it that high? I thought it was like 120%. Is it still considered "lifting" if it's eccentric? Haha.
Originally posted by IronFist
... it would be a pain in the ass to take the weight off and re-rack the bar up high again after each rep.
Ford Prefect
12-07-2004, 06:24 AM
That's what weight releasers are for... :) It's a lot easier than re-racking a heavy weight.
ok, need some more education:
would someone define 'eccentric' as it relates to this topic?
TIA
IronFist
12-07-2004, 09:47 AM
Concentric = the part of the contraction where the muscle shortens, like curling the weight up during biceps curls.
Eccentric = the part of the contraction where the muscle lengthens, like lowering the weight during biceps curls.
ok, thanks...so check me on this
Oso, IIRC you can lift 130-140% of your concentric max on the eccentric portion. So maybe do negatives but push it. Unweighted negatives might be easy, so start hanging weights off. E.g. if you can do negatives with say 10lb, you should be able to do the full ROM unweighted. I reckon the full ROM is important because when I approach failure I can still pull up the bottom 1/2 ROM - it's the top 1/2 getting your chin over that I find the hardest part of the lfit.
so, I should be able to do 305+ (235x1.3) on the negative/eccentric portion of the pull up???
hehe, I could get one of my kids to hang on my back while I do negatives.
bsaizan
12-07-2004, 12:18 PM
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/23/
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/7/
There two articles should help a little with pullups
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
That's what weight releasers are for... :) It's a lot easier than re-racking a heavy weight. Yeah, but I train alone, so e.g. doing bench or squat I'd still have to rerack the weight and rehang the releasers every rep. Pain in the ass. I'd love to do a program of heavy negatives, but I'd need a couple of training partners. Maybe when my kids are a bit older. In the meantime chains and bands'll have to do. I just need to find suitable bands in Oz.
Originally posted by Oso
so, I should be able to do 305+ (235x1.3) on the negative/eccentric portion of the pull up???Yep. Theoretically. That's why in another post I said hang a weight off you and jump to the up position and do controlled negatives. Once you can do that with a decent amount of weight, you'll have no problem with full ROM pullups unweighted. I do this if I appproach failure at the end of a cycle. If I'm gunna fail the last rep of a cycle, I'll jump to the up position instead and just lower controlled. I can do that even if I'd never get the full up-down action for that rep.
vingtsunstudent
12-07-2004, 10:07 PM
toby
the best thing to do is just wait til' the bands are on sale at elite.
i got mine from there and they are the gear. you'd honestly only need the mini's, light and medium, unless of course you're aiming for over 1000lbs in the squat.
this site also has them http://www.ironwoodyfitness.com/index.html
i did find an australian distributor for the iron woody ones a few weeks back but forgot to bookmark it. i'll have a look later and if i find it i'll put it up for you.
vts
vingtsunstudent
12-07-2004, 10:10 PM
luckily my memory ain't completely fukked.
http://www.myopure.com.au/resistance-bands.html
vts
Thanks vts,
That's my protein supplier that's gunna be selling them. I'll be interested to see what price he sells them for.
vingtsunstudent
12-08-2004, 02:24 AM
no problema toby.
by the way my site is up and running. in the future i may end up stocking jumpstretch bands but it mightn't be for a while, if i do get them sooner than later i'll let you know.
http://www.modernprimitivetrainingtools.com/
as a side note, i also have supplied the newcastle knights with some gear so i can now boast that my gear is being used and put to the test by atleast one proffessional team and so far they're giving the gear excellent feedback, esp. the rings.
also, just to make you feel a little worse(or envious) i've scored some bumper plates for down in my lttle ol' home gym. i must say they are an excellent compliment to playing with my KB's.
vts
Keep us updated. I'm still broke ;), but I eventually might get some KBs to mess around with. Plus I'd eventually like a decent bar.
vingtsunstudent
12-08-2004, 02:50 AM
dude, to easy.
hears just another quick story from training last night to make you feel even worse, a mate of mine was hear and easily pressed a 50kg with one arm(mind you he trains for strongman events and is a man moutain to begin with), however to make matters worse he then told me of this young islander he works with that floor pressed and overhead pressed the 40kg bells first time he tried, no bad for someone who doesn't even workout. he then went on to tell me that one time at his place he had 200kgs on the bar doing deads and this same guy was there, he had a dodge knee at the time and still deadlifted 200 kgs first attempt. don't some people make you sick.
vts
Blah, I don't wanna hear those stories. My wife's been sick for months with what turned out to be glandular fever (mono for you seppos). Yesterday I came down with a sore throat and stuffed nose. Today I worked from home with a sore throat, swollen glands and a stuffed nose. I'm praying it's a cold, but I never get sick. My training's all over for a while if it turn's out I've got glandular fever.
dude, that sucks. I've heard some horror stories about mono.
ok, I'll be trying the negative pullups this weekend.
In general, is it ok to swap between negative workouts and regular workouts? Or, should they be done in phases?
Back, waaaay back, in HS we did 6 weeks of normal lifting and 2 weeks of negatives and remaxed before starting the cycle over again. Does that make sense? Keep in mind I'm talking about 1984-85.
Originally posted by Oso
dude, that sucks. I've heard some horror stories about mono.Yep. I know two personally who developed chronic fatigue syndrome and were down for 7yrs for one and about 11yrs for the other. But I'm feeling a bit better this morning although my glands are still up. Hopefully just a 72hr cold.
Originally posted by Oso
In general, is it ok to swap between negative workouts and regular workouts? Or, should they be done in phases?I think either would be good. IIRC eccentric is where most hypertrophy occurs (and associated DOMS), so bear in mind that it might affect your workout if you do too much volume with eccentric "lifts". When I did them for pullups I was doing PTP. I don't recall how many reps negatives I did, but I wouldn't want to be going too hard with e.g. 5x5s with the 130-140% weight.
Ming Yue and I found ourselves w/ no kids in kids class tonight so we did the pushup pyramid and then did the 1-2-2-1 pyramids for normal grip & narrow grip pullups (palms facing away) and chin ups (palms facing you...****, now I'm confused again on that terminology...)
we were shooting for 8 second drops. definitely different and as we started to fail, we failed in the top 1/2 of the ROM and then were able to still slow the descent for the bottom 1/2. So, I can see how this works now.
i'll let ya'll know how sore I am in the AM.
Originally posted by Oso
pullups (palms facing away) and chin ups (palms facing you...Yep, you're right. Palms away == pullups. Palms facing == chinups.
MasterKiller
12-09-2004, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Toby
Yep, you're right. Palms away == pullups. Palms facing == chinups. ****! I didn't know there was a difference. :eek:
When I do pullups, I keep straining my right forearm. I can chin-up all day long (well, not really. I can do 13 in a row). Any idea why I would keep injuring my right forearm doing pull-ups? Incorrect hand placement?
MK, chin ups are usually easier because the biceps come in to play more. Not knocking your 13, I think I can get 6 or 7 when fresh.
Not too sore this AM but I can feel it in slightly different places.
gonna do the whole routine Sat morn and will keep doing the negatives through the end of december.
Ming Yue
12-09-2004, 08:11 AM
FWIW, I'm not too sore this morning either. Definitely the eccentric pull ups (drop downs?) hit specific muscle groups, my discomfort is really localized, much moreso than with the standard pull up routine.
I found myself really fatigued after just the pushups and pull ups.
much more so than I've ever been right after doing the whole routine i've been working on.
diet and rest were normal for the previous 24 hours.
ok, for whatever reason, I'm have a 36 hour delay in the onset of soreness from exercise/lifting
this is all I have to say now about changing up the pullups to negatives:
I didn't realize that my lats extended that far down my back......owwww, mother****ing owwww.
norther practitioner
12-10-2004, 11:03 AM
Don't you hate that.. oh, I'm going to be sore tomorrow.. then nothing...:confused: .... Then that next night you start fealing it, wake up the next morning....:eek:
Ming Yue
12-10-2004, 11:50 AM
Hi.
I can't bend my arms.
could somebody feed me my lunch?
*stupid eccentric pullups*
:D
Originally posted by Ming Yue
Hi.
I can't bend my arms.
could somebody feed me my lunch?
:D
*trips over self lunging at silverware*
norther practitioner
12-10-2004, 12:24 PM
Ming, save it, I don't think 7* is reading this...
:p
um, OSO, I believe you have a job to do...:)
I hate being that sore.
Ming Yue
12-10-2004, 12:37 PM
Vash always shows up just when you need him.
:)
already much better today.
gonna try and do 1-2-3--3-2-1 tomorrow.
you guys are funny...
norther practitioner
12-10-2004, 01:10 PM
OK, sorry...
norther practitioner
12-10-2004, 01:30 PM
You should do the same OSO
**** anteaters....;)
MY, B has a nice set of bruises this AM from last nights arm drills. Her first big set and every time I see her she's waving her arms at me to show them off. :D Getting some greif from her boss though...she didn't jow at all...for which I *****ed her out.
anyway, told her about the apparent benefit of the negative training and she's looking forward to it tomorrow.
Originally posted by Ming Yue
Vash always shows up just when you need him.
:)
My new sig.
Ming Yue
12-10-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Oso
MY, B has a nice set of bruises this AM from last nights arm drills. Her first big set and every time I see her she's waving her arms at me to show them off. :D Getting some greif from her boss though...she didn't jow at all...for which I *****ed her out.
anyway, told her about the apparent benefit of the negative training and she's looking forward to it tomorrow.
she'll learn the jow lesson the hard way when I suggest a big session of wai gua shou tomorrow. :)
norther practitioner
12-11-2004, 03:29 PM
Don't beat the pore woman up too much...lol
she digs it...funny, on average, the women train harder than the men in my school...
Ming Yue
12-13-2004, 10:28 AM
she was bruised from wrist to elbow! when I saw her yesterday they were almost gone...
the AMA girls do indeed kick butt. :)
norther practitioner
12-15-2004, 11:29 AM
Is she into the stinky dit da yet?
Ming Yue
12-15-2004, 11:40 AM
I brew the jow for the school and sold her a bottle - she's got some, she's just not using it.
She has a new baby and doesn't like to handle the baby with it on her skin, which I agree with. I suggested she use it after we do the conditioning drills and wash it off when she gets home, and then maybe puts it on before bed.
NP, sorry dude, didn't see the message about my PM box.
just added another girl to the ranks...strong soccer and basketball player...but If we get one more than I will be officially greater than 50% women....
help me, help me...please don't throw me into that there briar patch Mr. Fox.... :D
ok, another question....
what width is standard for pullups?
right now my bar is kinda narrow...for me the widest I can get my hands is just barely outside my shoulder width.
I have a plan for adding extensions to the outside so I can work wide grip but haven't actualized it yet.
so, what is the span between the hands for a 'standard' pull up?
norther practitioner
12-28-2004, 10:53 AM
I always thought standard was shoulder width, then narrow, then wide.. etc...
Originally posted by Oso
so, what is the span between the hands for a 'standard' pull up? Dunno, but my grip is about 40" apart. That's just the width of my power rack, so that's where I grip it :D.
ok, so wouldn't a full pull up, chin over the bar, be easier w/ a wider grip becuase the total distance you are pulling is less than regular or narrow?
also, a true pull up should be from a full hang, correct?
I feel like I'm running into a mechanical issue when my arms are just a bit wider than shoulder width...I don't feel failure especially but more of a 'they don't move any more in that direction'
could be that I've just got the '1 pullup blues'....
highest ever tonight...my lower lip was over the bar.
my goal has been to get '1' by new years...I'm going to officially go for it on monday the 3rd...giving me the 1st and 2nd to recover from the 31st. :D
Originally posted by Oso
ok, so wouldn't a full pull up, chin over the bar, be easier w/ a wider grip becuase the total distance you are pulling is less than regular or narrow?Probably. Mechanical advantages too. E.g. I vary my hand position as my bench cycle increases. The 2nd week is half a hand wider on each side than the 1st week because it uses less triceps, more pectorals that way (and triceps are the weak link).
Originally posted by Oso
also, a true pull up should be from a full hang, correct?Yep. But my bars not that high so I get in position standing on the ground then lift my legs up behind me and cross my ankles and go from there i.e. I don't have to jump up to get to the bar.
Originally posted by Oso
I feel like I'm running into a mechanical issue when my arms are just a bit wider than shoulder width...I don't feel failure especially but more of a 'they don't move any more in that direction'Shoulder width shouldn't present major difficulties. Hands together might be a different story. Try varying the ROM of your elbows - pull them out to the side or out to the front (I do the latter). Try visualisation - sometimes I think of pulling my elbows down instead of pulling myself up.
Originally posted by Oso
my goal has been to get '1' by new years...I'm going to officially go for it on monday the 3rd...giving me the 1st and 2nd to recover from the 31st. :D Judging by your pre-Christmas eggnog, pie, etc posts, won't you still be paying for the festive season :D? That'll make things harder ...
Judging by your pre-Christmas eggnog, pie, etc posts, won't you still be paying for the festive season ? That'll make things harder ...
actually, I just pulled the belt in another notch this week.
and, I've had steady increases in my pullup...two weeks ago I couldn't get my nose over the bar...not counting the one freak instance I did '1'
work hard, play hard and all that.
moderation is for monks, my friend, take big bites and enjoy life.
Yep. But my bars not that high so I get in position standing on the ground then lift my legs up behind me and cross my ankles and go from there i.e. I don't have to jump up to get to the bar.
mine too, I can reach and grip flat footed and then I pull my legs up.
Shoulder width shouldn't present major difficulties. Hands together might be a different story. Try varying the ROM of your elbows - pull them out to the side or out to the front (I do the latter). Try visualisation - sometimes I think of pulling my elbows down instead of pulling myself up.
my elbows are just slanted outward, not straight but not really far enough out to call it to the side.
I do use visualization and it helps a bunch.
I also talk, or rather, curse at them too...
and, FTR, I am doing this w/ 3 torn tendons in the right shoulder but I don't really think it's bothering me at all. there is no pain on pushups or pullups...dips are another story and I don't do them at all.
well, tried to hit '1' today but failed.
I've got video of it, I'm a lot further away than I thought.
I've felt like I've been keeping my chin level but in the vid I see I am not.
I went for two, feeling like the first one was really close, the second is about 80% of the first.
still feeling stronger with my workouts but just not there yet.
I've done upper body 2 days a week for the last two weeks and I'm going to start trying to do it every other day. My recovery period has definitely shortened to 24-36 hours.
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