WTF Moderators???

[Water Dragon]

So why did you close JJJ's Kung Fu weapons topics. Some of us consider modern firearms a necesary part of our training. Or am I the only guy who lives in a place where people don't fight with swords and spears anymore?

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[This message was edited by Water Dragon on 10-18-01 at 02:35 PM.]

[soy]

Guns != Martial Arts.

Guns = Lazy Arts.

Unless you're learning to disarm people or something.

I'm a great shot, but I don't consider it to be an art...

[Water Dragon]

No, guns = necesary skill

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[atsai]

Maybe the mod doesn't like mini 14...

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE=" Art Tsai " onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width="97%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[DrunkenMonkey]

I agree. No one fights with swords or nunchakus or whip chains anymore. Its either knives, some sort of stick (bat etc.) or knife or fist.

"****ed be the day that befalls us in a most hostile manner that shall compromise our Country, and ****ed be the great lengths at which are required of to stir our Patriotism." - Anonymous

[JWTAYLOR]

Soy, how much time, per month, do you spend shooting?

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Soy, how can you discredit firearms?

Sure you can train disarming a firearem forever, but if you still don't know how to use one your Fuked.

"Life's a great adventure, mate."
Jacko Jackson

[This message was edited by Johnny Hot Shot on 10-18-01 at 02:51 PM.]

[jjj]

So you don't think Kung Fu and firearms have anything in common? Try watching The Matrix sometime! Anyhow I did not know Glock Fu questions were forbidden. So if anyone else has info on this model or the mini 30 send me an email:

jiujitsujedi@yahoo.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[soy]

I didnt mean to discredit firearms.

They are the most powerfull weapon, obviously.

I don't like them, and I don't own one.

I havent shot one in atleast a year, but I'm pretty well versed on shooting.

The human race really should learn to stop being stupid, killing each other so easily.. start learning to be nice to each other, and enjoy what little time we have on earth.

Or not, who cares anyways.. :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

Soy, there's a difference between what should be and what is.

Yo Moderators!!! WTF?!?!?!?

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[Kung Lek]

water dragon, you want some cheese with your whine?

field and stream might have a forum for you!

Guns have nothing to do with Kung Fu beyond being a major contributing factor in their downfall amongst the populace.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[HuangKaiVun]

???

Guns have EVERYTHING to do with kung fu!

We should know the weapons of today, and we should also know the mentality of those that use them!

[JWTAYLOR]

Kunk Lek, I usually support you, but you are way off base there.

Shooting has a great deal to do with skill aquired through hard work. It's true, anyone can pick up a gun and pull the trigger. But just as anyone can throw out their arm for a punch, without propper practice and good instruction, it is unlikely that the action will produce a reliable, predictable result. In fact, most police officers who shoot regularly are unable to reliably hit a human silloette moving at running speed only 15 feet away. What does that say out guns and shooting.

Like all things, it takes good equipment, proper practice, and good instruction. And practice, practice, practice. Professional shooters are at the range every single week, using both skill training drills and "reality" shooting to improve their skill.

Quick draw artists and long range shooters both speek of a "zen" like state while shooting. In quick draw shooting, the signal to fire is a light bulb lighting up. Then you shoot as many times into a target as possible. The difference in times for shooters is measured in milliseconds. The greatest, fastest shooters prepare by staring at a light bulb. They say that when they have achieved the appropriate state of mind, they can actually see the light bulb lighting up. Most of us just see the light bulb light up. But they have reached a state in their brain where they see the filiment heat up, brightening the air inside the bulb, and then lighting up.

Both also study body position and breathing with great scrutiny.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Water Dragon]

Guns have nothing to do with Kung Fu beyond being a major contributing factor in their downfall amongst the populace.


You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 10-19-01 at 08:11 PM.]

[Water Dragon]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/journal/columns/parriski/xtraining01_firearms02.jpg

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/journal/columns/parriski/xtraining01_firearms.shtml

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[wu_de36]

The very term martial arts implies that firearms should be studied. In fact, I would go so far as to say only a lazy martial artist would ignore them as a weapon.

I study the staff and the spear, chain whip, nunchaku, three section staff, sword, etc, but I also pay just as much attention, if not more, to the knife and gun. At the very least, anyone who considers themselves a "martial artist" should at least be able to follow basic safety rules, and be able to load or unload a weapon. A higher level would be empty handed defenses at close-quarte range against a firearm, and even higher, tactical firearm usage. Guns are a lot more than a point-and-click interface.

Maybe you don't think guns are worth your time to learn, but that doesn't mean when someone suggests it as a field of study it should be scoffed at and written off.

Kung Lek, I would hope that as a moderator, you'd be able to see past your biases and let intellegent conversations continue. It's a much better alternative than 50 "Who is the best Tekken 3 character" and "Wang Shu Jin vs. Ralph Macchio" threads.

On a similar note, I used to respect Robert Smith until I read the JAMA article in which he basically said guns are for the lazy, let's melt them all down and hold hands while singing round the campfire. It was completely out of the blue and had nothing to do with his life as a martial artist. He used JAMA to push his half-baked political beliefs. If Robert Smith ever tries to take my guns, I'll shoot his circle walking ass. :eek:

[Kung Lek]

Ok, point taken.
But, I wonder how many ofyou learn "practical shooting" in your Kung Fu curriculums?

I took a practical shooting course, I also hold a firearms safety cert, and firearms acquisition cert.

I do not own any firearms at all. I also practice classical weapons.
And I agree that firearms are "martial" in context to the modern world.

But, the original post was concerning where to get guns and not how they relate to the training of a Kung Fu system.

As far as I know, you can't buy guns from an online martial arts supplier and for the most part I'm willing to bet that none of your teachers offer extensive training in the use of firearms.

BTW, Is that Rovere in those pics? if so, I really like what he is propogating these days. Interesting guy to say the least.

p.s wu de, it is bad form to start a stupid topic and then complain about it :D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Watchman]

Go to this site: http://www.tacticalforums.com/. Post your question there and you'll get some good advice.

[wu_de36]

ah but that is a very different song than "guns are killing kung fu and are for lazy folk."

Guns probably WOULD be sold through martial arts catalogs if the BATF didn't have silly laws prohibiting mail-order firearms purchases. Although given the quality of weapons I see in most MA stores, I certainly wouldn't buy a gun there. :)

I think the original post was thoughtful in a strange way. And it certainly has made people think about other "martial weapons."

After I posted my rant, I decided that a wsj v rm thread was too good to pass up. :)

[Tigerstyle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But, I wonder how many of you learn "practical shooting" in your Kung Fu curriculums?[/quote]
Wrestlers do (D'oh!) ;) .

I just wanted to chime in agreeing about firearms being MA-related. My brother and I joke around and say that if ninja still offered their "services" they would definitely be incorporating guns into their bag o' tricks because of their efficiency.

Saying guns aren't kung fu-related is like the short people on a basketball court (me :p) saying, "No dunking! That's not fair!"

[ElPietro]

Whoever posted on police being in-accurate shooting a running target...that is pretty much the dumbest thing to say I've read in this thread. What the fu(k does shooting someone running away have to do with self-defense. Yeah you can learn a gun...and then no matter how big a panzy you are you can just shoot your gun off along with your mouth because you have an upper hand. You guys need to get real...right now you can barely make a rational thought what about in a fighting situation? You are going to pull the trigger and then it's final. Victim is probably dead and you can't do anything about it.

With a gun you will have confidence you don't deserve and that means you will be just another punk with a gun running his mouth and then shooting whoever talks back. I'm sure most of you aren't like that but I'm sure in a situation where you are extremely disturbed and distressed it would happen so good job working on kung fu all your life to then rely on a gun. If the other person has a gun then avoid them if you can or just shut your mouth and do what they say. These arts are for defense not for the escalation of violence. Gun training and having a gun are different but shooting someone if they don't have a gun pointed at you is the ultimate cowardly act.

[Water Dragon]

It's a pop fly, looks like a base hit!!!

Wait, out of left field comes elpietro, he's got it!!

White Sox lead at the bottom of the 7th

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[JWTAYLOR]

ElPietro

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In fact, most police officers who shoot regularly are unable to reliably hit a human silloette moving at running speed only 15 feet away [/quote]

Where does that say the target is moving away?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You are going to pull the trigger and then it's final. Victim is probably dead and you can't do anything about it. [/quote]

And that statement is in direct opposition to all of the data that is out there. The vast, vast majority of people who are shot do not die. According to the Uniform Crime Statistics put out by the FBI, only 1 in 10 people shot actually die.

Moreover, my post about inacuracy only points out that pulling the trigger is by no means a sure bet that the bullet will hit it's target.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Jaguar Wong]

I've also heard/read (on some tactical firearm sites), when using a pistol to defend your life, much like all martial arts, you still shouldn't rely on the "one-shot kill", unless you're a pheonominal shooter, and can confidently go for a moving head shot, or the knee caps of an assailant covering ground to take you out. Most people don't die (or stop, or fall) when they're only hit once while moving towards you.

Now if I could just toughen my body to absorb some bullets, I could cover enough ground to submit any armed assailant .... :)

BTW, snipers would make good Ninja

Jaguar Wong

[Kung Lek]

I remember an old phrase for use in self defense-
"Charge a Gun, Run from a blade"

a gun wound is clean and it is likely you will survive a gunshot wound.

Blade wounds are messy and are more likely to leave you dead.

Just a thought.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[JWTAYLOR]

That is statistically accurate. You have a higher likelyhood of surviving a gun attack than a knife attack, statistically speaking. That is a bit misleading of a statistic, however. Most of the time someone is shot, it's loud, gets allot of attention, and the victim recieves subsequent medical attention rather quickly. Nobody hears a knife and people often bleed to death before they realize how seriously they are hurt.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[rovere]

Water Dragon: why are copyrighted photos from one of my articles on your post?

Dennis Rovere
rovere@rovere.com

[Kung Lek]

so it was you.

we can have those shots removed if you want Rovere.

Good work by the way, keep it coming :)
peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[rovere]

Kung Lek: Thanks for the compliments. Yes I would like to have the photos removed. Not to be an a$$ about it but if people ask AND give credit as to who is in the photos I normally don't mind. e.g., emptyflower (a great site) asked to link with my article and place one of our book covers on their page -- No problem.

Water Dragon. I know your intentions were good and I understand the point of the photos but next time drop me a note. (BTW No offense taken.)

[Kung Lek]

Done Rovere. They are his pics WD.

Look forward to your further adventures in Kung Fu land :D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Water Dragon]

Sorry Rovere, no offense intended. I was just trying to show how firearms are applicable to martial arts.

FYI, you should probably throw a copyright in the HTML so people can't link your pics.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.