20 rep deadlift program...

[Samurai Jack]

Well, I've been doing PTP for almost five months now, and I feel it's time for a change. While I've experienced terrific strength gains, esp. on my Deads, I've had almost no size gains (nothing measurable anyway). I've always really liked the 20 rep squat program from "Super Squats", but I haven't got any access to a squat-rack anymore, so I think I'm going to do a modified PTP inspired 20 rep Deadlift program. It looks like this:

Deadlift 1X20
Military Press 3X failure
Concentration Curls 3X failure, forced reps, negatives
Skull-crushers 1X failure, forced reps, negatives
Coc gripper 3X failure, forced reps, negatives

I'll do this 3X per week. Of course you notice the excessive arm emphasis. This is due to my arms lagging behind the rest of my body quite a bit now. Since I haven't bothered to isolate them for over two years, I figure it might be useful to try to now. I know bench press and pull-ups would probably make the program more rounded, but I haven't the gear at this time.

So my current goal is to start at 100 lbs. deadlifts X20 and add five pounds per workout until I'm pulling my current five rep max (320 lbs.) X20. After that, I'll re-evaluate. Any coments or suggestions? I won't start this new program until Wed.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
So my current goal is to start at 100 lbs. deadlifts X20 and add five pounds per workout until I'm pulling my current five rep max (320 lbs.) X20. After that, I'll re-evaluate. Any coments or suggestions? I won't start this new program until Wed.

Wow, um, keep us posted.

[Samurai Jack]

Would you do something differently? Or are you just making fun of my pathetic Deadlift max? ;)

[IronFist]

No I just think that would be amazing if it worked up to 320 x 20.

Your deadlift max is 5 pounds higher than mine, so I can't make fun of you.

But I think I weigh less, so I win... kinda :D

But with DL you don't really do the eccentric portion, and isn't the eccentric portion more responsible for size gain than the concentric? What I'm saying is, you might be kinda shooting yourself in the foot having a 20 rep program which is obviously designed for mass but doing it with an exercise that doesn't really have an eccentric portion.

That being said, I think DL most improved my hamstring development, and I never did more than 5 reps. Or maybe it's just the fact that I squat very low which brings the hamstrings into play.

I dunno. That's why I said keep us posted of your progress.

[IronFist]

PS. That 220 pound increase at 5lbs per workout assuming 3 workouts per week will take 14 weeks and 2 workouts the 15th week.

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, I figure two and a half months might be enough, but if it gets to the point that I can't make my reps, I'll probably start periodizing with wave cycles or something.

As far as eccentric contractions go, I lower the weight slowly and under control when I Deadlift, is that what you're refering to? I know you and Pavel don't agree with lowering the weight slowly on Deads, but the thing is I've hurt my back every time I've ever just "dropped" the weight as Pavel suggests, so I streer clear of that method now. I will let you know how it goes though, and I figure the routine will stand unless I get any compelling suggestions between now and Wednesday (which, of course you are welcome to make).

[IronFist]

If lowering a deadlift slowly works for you, then go ahead. Just be careful.

I'm actually pretty interested in what kind of results you get.

If you had a squat rack would you do 20 rep squats instead?

What were your strength gains like with PTP?

Have fun getting owned by high rep stuff for the first few weeks :D

[Toby]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
I know you and Pavel don't agree with lowering the weight slowly on Deads, but the thing is I've hurt my back every time I've ever just "dropped" the weight as Pavel suggests, so I streer clear of that method now.I lower it, but not slowly. I don't drop it from waist height, but I don't try and hold it up. Maybe 1/3-1/2 effort. Maybe less, dunno. I try to keep the same good form on the way down as up - i.e. arched back especially.

[vingtsunstudent]

there was once a post from DD i used to have saved but can no longer find that had a full layout for how to convert 20 rep squats to 20 rep deads.

if you've ever done 20 rep squats you know how bad they are meant to be both physically and(probably even more so) mentally so if it were me i'd be tryin' to achieve that target of 320 starting from 150 anything less and you might just miss all the pure misery that this sort of program should offer.

vts

[Ford Prefect]

I think you're starting way too light. You'll end up with an extremely long cycle. Not only are doing 20 rep programs strenuous to begin with, but the law of dimishing returns would have the exercise losing it's effectiveness long before you reach your goal.

Most you want is an 8 week cycle. Work from there backwards, if you are doing 2 workouts/week adding 5 lbs/workout, then your starting weight should be 245 lbs (that's only 75 lbs, but that gives you the lee-way to skip a workout if you need to)

Same with a 20-rep squat workout.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
I lower it, but not slowly. I don't drop it from waist height, but I don't try and hold it up. Maybe 1/3-1/2 effort. Maybe less, dunno. I try to keep the same good form on the way down as up - i.e. arched back especially.

Yeah, Pavel says you should do a controlled drop, not like literally dropping it. What you're doing sounds about right, although maybe a little slow.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I think you're starting way too light. You'll end up with an extremely long cycle. Not only are doing 20 rep programs strenuous to begin with, but the law of dimishing returns would have the exercise losing it's effectiveness long before you reach your goal.

Most you want is an 8 week cycle. Work from there backwards, if you are doing 2 workouts/week adding 5 lbs/workout, then your starting weight should be 245 lbs (that's only 75 lbs, but that gives you the lee-way to skip a workout if you need to)

Same with a 20-rep squat workout.

You could always start at 100 but add 15 or 20lbs per workout for the first week or two.

I think if you're coming off of 5 months of PTP that 20 reps at even 100 pounds will be hard. If it were me, and my 1RM was 320 like his, there is no FREAKING WAY that I could START at 245 x 20. For reference, when I squated 315 x 1, it was a challenge for me to do 135 x 15 after that. 245 x 20 would be completely out of the question. 245 x 10 would have even been out of the question.

[fa_jing]

OK, so his 5RM is 320. I think he should start at 185lbs or maybe 175. 320 for 20 reps is not a reasonable goal. 20reps at 275 would be major.

Working the grip after the 20-rep deadlift set will kill the cycle for sure.

Also, I would think that for this kind of volume work which is primarily hypertrophy training, the lowering should be done under control.

[Ford Prefect]

Dunno. It could be a mental thing too. Didn't you say you got a headache when you tried doing 20 reps? All I know is I've done it like this a few times and the reason I did is because this is generally accepted model for doing it. 245 lbs is only 75% of his 5RM. At worst, he could work the cycle in the 10 lbs increments/workout and start at 170 lbs.

The reason these 20 rep cycles work is because of the frequency combined with the small incremental steps. Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

[IronFist]

geez I can't believe I can't read. I thought he said his 1RM was 320. Forget everything I said cuz it was based off the wrong numbers.

And then, yes, I'm jealous of your 320 x 5RM, and no, I'm not winning then :D

[fa_jing]

I don't know, I think the DL is funny like that. I can do 5 reps at 320 but I have doubts I could do 20 reps even at 225. It seems that the resting position for 20 rep deadlifts of holding the bar in your hands while you stand there is even more taxing than standing with the bar on your shoulders like you do in the squat.

[fa_jing]

http://www.otbonline.co.uk/general16.html

[Ford Prefect]

That's pretty interesting considering when my 1RM was around 350, occasionally I'd warm up with 15 reps at 225 lbs. That was just a warm-up too. It was mildly taxing but didn't effect the rest of my session.

[fa_jing]

Ahh, I don't know.

:cool:

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, my endurance is in the $h@t-hole, so like Iron, I'm going to have to start lighter than I'd normally like to. Perhaps I'll start at 100, then add 10 or 15 lbs. per workout until I get to 245, then progress up 5 lbs. until I hit my target of 320X20. It's sort of like what that guy in the article says he did.

I REALLY don't want to get hurt as I've tweaked my lower back several times with Deadlifts and it always catches me by surprise. Plus it takes like two weeks to get back to normal.

And yes Iron, I'd probably do the squats if I had a rack. I did the twenty rep squat program about a year or so ago. I actually didn't think it was as taxing as doing multiple sets of triples was.

Funny story; I was working out at the YMCA gym in thier squat rack (where most people just do pull-ups) when about mid-way through a twenty rep set this personal trainer guy comes up and watches as I finish out my set. As soon as I'm done he goes, "You should really lower the weight dude, you're gonna hurt yourself." Which kinda pi$$ed me off, but whatever.

Next week the same guy comes up to me and says, "Dude, if you can lift that for twenty-reps you should go heavier, otherwise you're just wasting your time." Arrgghhh. This time I've brought the "Super-Squats" book. I show it to him and tell him to buy a copy.

A month later I see these flyers all over the gym announcing a "New Squat Routine Seminar", and guess who's teaching it? I've got to stand in line for the racks for the next couple of weeks, and I finally quite going to the "Y".

Personal Trainers... Ya gotta love 'em... :rolleyes:

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Funny story; I was working out at the YMCA gym in thier squat rack (where most people just do pull-ups) when about mid-way through a twenty rep set this personal trainer guy comes up and watches as I finish out my set. As soon as I'm done he goes, "You should really lower the weight dude, you're gonna hurt yourself." Which kinda pi$$ed me off, but whatever.

Wow, that would p.iss me off.


Next week the same guy comes up to me and says, "Dude, if you can lift that for twenty-reps you should go heavier, otherwise you're just wasting your time."

Haha he counted your reps.

PS. that would p.iss me off.


A month later I see these flyers all over the gym announcing a "New Squat Routine Seminar", and guess who's teaching it? I've got to stand in line for the racks for the next couple of weeks, and I finally quite going to the "Y".

Wow, that would really p.iss me off.


Personal Trainers... Ya gotta I love 'em... :rolleyes:

Haha. There needs to be some kind of nation-wide standardization for personal trainers that includes some decent instruction or something. It's really rediculous how bad it's gotten.

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, it pizzed me off enough that I have no intrest in going back to no dang expensive gym full of teenagers endlessly pumping ten pound plates on the bench press and middle-aged yuppies ogling eachother's lumpy a$$es on the stairclimber ever again. I'll buy myself a nice home set-up when I can afford one. Scuh-rew the gym.

[Suntzu]

it should really pi$$ u off that YOU didn't come up with the ide for the Squat Seminar and make a few $$$ off of it........ home gyms are nice..... and they would be even more nicer if i was actually home every once in a while....

[Toby]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
I REALLY don't want to get hurt as I've tweaked my lower back several times with Deadlifts and it always catches me by surprise. Plus it takes like two weeks to get back to normal.That would be my main concern - staying concentrated for the whole 20 reps. 5 reps is hard enough for me to maintain form. I reckon with 20 I might lose concentration a bit and mess up something. Not so crucial while you're still lifting light, but get towards your max and you'll have to be careful.

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
The personal trainer story ...****, that would really **** me off. Being naturally aggressive I would've confronted him about it.

[Samurai Jack]

Toby, how in the heck do you get the board to print your cursewords? Not that I'd use any... heh-heh... Ohhh, **** it, I would. :D

Yeah, thanks to fa_jing's link, I've got an idea that rest/pause will be the way to go. 20 rep Dead's are going to be a compromise. I'd probably prefer Squats, but I personally think Dead's might have an advantage as far as hormone production is concerned since it uses even more muscle than Squats. It'll be an interesting experiment.

I'm pretty psyched to try it out.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Toby, how in the heck do you get the board to print your cursewords?****, I don't know :confused:. Quote my post. Look closely at the quoted text and all will be revealed.

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Yeah, thanks to fa_jing's link, I've got an idea that rest/pause will be the way to go.I love the deads, but I can't help pausing between them. Even when it's light. When I get to the end of a cycle, it's probably like 30s between reps. I'll do one, drop it, stand up and psych myself up for the next before starting. That way I maintain form better than if I just went one, two, ..., five. OTOH I can rip out a squat set no problem.

[IronFist]

I heard hormone production in squats and DL and stuff doesn't really matter cuz your body produces something else with the GH or whatever to negate it. I dunno. I didn't read any research or something, I just heard it from someone who supposedly read something.

[Toby]

*Does lazy Iron's research for him*

"When blood glucose drops (during exercise or with carbohydrate restriction), insulin levels generally drop as well."

"When blood glucose increases, insulin levels increase as well, causing glucose in the bloodstream to be stored as glycogen in the muscle or liver... Protein synthesis is stimulated and free amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) are be moved into muscle cells and incorporated into larger proteins."

"Glucagon is essentially insulin's mirror hormone and has essentially opposite effects. Like insulin, glucagon(s) ... primary role is also to maintain blood glucose levels. However, glucogon acts by raising blood glucose when it drops below normal."

"Glucagon's main action is in the liver, stimulating the breakdown of liver glycogen which is then released into the bloodstream."

"Under normal conditions, glucagon has very little effect in tissues other than the liver (i.e. fat and muscle cells). However, when insulin is very low, as occurs with carbohydrate restriction and exercise, glucagon plays a minor role in muscle glycogen breakdown ..."

"From the above descriptions, it should be clear that insulin and glucagon play antagonistic roles to one another. Whereas insulin is primarily a storage hormone, increase storage of glucose, protein and fat in the body; glucagon's primary role is to mobilize those same fuel stores for use by the body."

"As a general rule, when insulin is high, glucagon levels are low."

"... insulin and glucagon play the major roles in determining the anabolic or catabolic state of the body."

"When blood glucose increases ... insulin is released to lower blood glucose back to normal. The greatest increase in blood glucose levels (and the greatest increase in insulin) occurs from the consumption of dietary carbohydrates."

"Growth hormone (GH) is another peptide hormone which has numerous effects on the body, both on tissue growth as well as fuel mobilization. GH is released in response to a variety of stressors the most important of which for our purposes are exercise, a decrease in blood glucose ... As its name suggests, GH is a growth promoting hormone, increasing protein synthesis in the muscle and liver. GH also tends to mobilize FFA from fat cells for energy."

"High GH levels along with high insulin levels (as would be seen with a protein and carbohydrate containing meal) will raise IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor-1) levels as well as increasing anabolic reactions in the body." [1]

Cliff notes for Iron: exercise causes blood glucose to drop -> insulin drops -> glucagon increases -> GH increases. Glucagon is catabolic, insulin anabolic. GH with glucagon won't help much. GH with insulin will help much. Follow up weights program with protein and carbohydrate meal/shake soon after.

[1] McDonald L., "The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner", self-published, 1998.

[IronFist]

^ Did you understand that article? I didn't see any metric in it. :D

















PS. Thanks for the cliffs notes. I wanted to read the whole thing but the eye movement was too much cardio.

[Samurai Jack]

LOL! :D

[fa_jing]

yeah, but don't forget that guy in the article only did the 20-rep sets once a week. The original 20-rep DL program calls for continuous reps and more frequent workouts. You'll have to figure that one out.

BTW, for all of you that do the rest-pause style, in the past few months I have switched to the continuous style with controlled descents, little to no bouncing at the bottom and I feel it is benefical - because it teaches you to take advantage of the hamstring stretch reflex. The second rep is usually easier than the first for this reason.

[fa_jing]

ps I still do low rep sets though.

[Samurai Jack]

So I did my first workout with the 20 rep Deadlift program I'm adapting. I started with a 20 rep set @ 100 lbs. as I planned, and I've gotta say, it was not easy. Round about 12 reps I was breathing like a frieght train. I didn't need to use the rest/pause protocol yet, but I can easily see that this might be necessary by the time I'm pulling 200 or so. I'm going to increase the resistance by ten pounds and try again on Friday. Thanks for all the input guys, it really helped me figure out how I wanted to do this.

[IronFist]

It will take a week or two but you'll adapt to the higher reps. I went from doing sets of 5 to sets of 15 and it took a week or two to adapt. Of course by that time I had moved on to sets of 10, but still :) But at any rate, I would bet that when you get into it after a few workouts, doing 140 x 20 will be easier than when you did 100 x 20 (hopefully).

[Samurai Jack]

Arrrgghh. 20-rep deadlifts... killing... me...

Maybe I'll switch to two or three sets of ten. I don't know how long I can continue this. It looks like I went and found the toughest weight training routine in history. Or at least it's the toughest I've ever tried.

Anyone have a heart defibrellator?

How in the f@ck did you manage 5 sets of 15, Iron? I'll keep at it as long as I can. I definately think I'll be seeing some kind of results from this, if the effort involved is any indication.

[WinterPalm]

How many sets of 20 reps are you doing? I only did 20 reps once on the deadlift and it was only 185, my max for singles is 315. However, I used a thick bar, didn't rest between reps and wasn't that out of breathe in the end. I don't understand. Maybe I didn't have enough weight.
However, that said, my squat is pathetic and I've recently started a 20 rep squat program. Basically just once a week for 20 reps starting at 130 with an end goal in fifteen weeks of 200. The first workout was fine. Oh yeah, I never squat, the only time I have was a couple summers ago with some friends at the gym.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
How in the f@ck did you manage 5 sets of 15, Iron? I'll keep at it as long as I can. I definately think I'll be seeing some kind of results from this, if the effort involved is any indication.

I've done 2 sets of 15 before, but never 5 sets of 15.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by IronFist
I went from doing sets of 5 to sets of 15 and it took a week or two to adapt.

Lol. I'd read that quote from you about five minutes after finishing a set of twenty with 160lbs. and was so addled I read it "5 sets of 15". Boy was I tired!

Anyway, I hope I can keep this up, 'cause if I make my goal of a 20 rep set with 320lbs. I will be stronger than I've ever thought possible.

[Samurai Jack]

I can see this is turning into a training BLOG. Anyhow, I just finished my first set of deads for 200 X 20. I jumped up 40 lbs. from my last workout because I knew I could if I used the rest/pause method, and I was getting impatient.

Thing is, rest/pausing like the article suggested ends up turning the set into 20 sets of singles, since after awhile, the temptation to rest a little bit longer after every set gets pretty strong. I had the soundtrack to "Conan the Barbarian" blasting and judging from where the track was when my set was over, it took a little over four minutes! I miss PTP.

So do you guys think a set of 20 that takes four minutes to complete is too much rest for hypertrophy purposes?

[Samurai Jack]

Yikes! I just went back to the bar and realized I pulled 220 X 20, meaning I jumped 60 lbs! Brain damage anyone? No wonder I'm tired. I'll be big and dumb before you know it.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Yikes! I just went back to the bar and realized I pulled 220 X 20, meaning I jumped 60 lbs! Brain damage anyone? No wonder I'm tired. I'll be big and dumb before you know it.

I love that. Actually, one time I realized I benched 10lbs more than I thought I did and it was rad cuz I thought it was easy.

Another time I thought I put more on the bar than I did, and I was ****ed afterward when I realized my mistake.

You'd think that after loading weight on and off the bar in the same increments of plates for 4 years I would know what is what :D

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack


So do you guys think a set of 20 that takes four minutes to complete is too much rest for hypertrophy purposes?

Not at all. Escalating Density singles are great for hypertrophy and can be done for up to 15 minutes.

[Samurai Jack]

Okay guys, here's my first workout and my last workout just in order to compare:

12/8/04 (Wed)
Deadlift 120 X 20
Military Press 120 X 9
Concentration Curl 45 X 6
Skull Crusher 40 X 7

12/26/04 (Sun)
Deadlift 240 X 20
Military Press 135 X 9
Concentration Curl 45 X 8
Skull Crusher 45 X 8

I figure that it's okay that my curls and skull-crushers aren't progressing as fast as my compound lifts since they're pre-exhausted by the other lifts anyhow. I'm actually failing on the ninth or tenth rep, but I only recorded the lowest complete rep for the weaker arm.

So I've only got eighty more pounds to go until I reach my goal of 320 X 20 on deadlifts!