Mantis Applications...lets talk

[WhiteMonkey]

Lets talk app's......

Name the form.......then the move and/or the # of the move in the form, and how you apply it or its application that YOU use.
(any forms any app, taught to you or made up by you, It's all good, also if you have another app for a move mentioned, feel free to expand on it and share)

Bung Bo, 5th & 6th move, used in one motion to attack.

Its the move in the hanging stance with the left hand forward punch and the right hand pulling back, finished with the elbow strike landing in lady stance.

App#1 Engage the bridge, grab with the right hand pulling back while, jumping forward with left hand punch to face,(#5)....... if blocked use right elbow against their right elbow applying force for take down.(#6)

App#2 Engage the bridge, grab with the right hand pulling back while, jumping forward with left hand punch to face (#5)......
slide right foot behind attackers left leg, grab with left hand, right hand pushing near the shoulder for take down.

App#3 Engage the bridge, grab with the right hand pulling back while, jumping forward with left hand punch to face (#5)......
with a forward motion strike attackers face with elbow.(#6)

Its pretty basic mantis, but hopefully it will start a nice thread sharing info on app's, I'll post another one later.

Mike

[Three Harmonies]

Exactly how I teach it, though I usually incorporate the knee in their. The knee and punch can go at the same time to distract the opponent, this is very common in all families of Mantis. Feint high to strike low. Feint low to strike high. Common phrase in Mantis, and this app. is exactly what they are talking about.
Good post.
Jake

[Tainan Mantis]

WhiteM,
Nice stuff I do like that too, but also add knee if I can.
BTW, I have not hear engage the bridge in PM, can you go into detail?

Same spot of the Beng Bu form.

A; throw out right hand
B; throw out right hand as defense.
A; jump to left(b's outer gate) while pulling B's right hand to my waist.
This is where the knee strikes B's ribs or groin.
Simultaneusly left hand slaps B's right ear. If it has a big lobe or ornament then rip it off, otherwise insert left thumb into eye socket.
If you are a kind man, just pull his/her hair.
The right elbow can then slam into B's neck left side.
My right foot comes down to entangle his foot(which ever is closest),
Then backfist to his neck right side.

Some folks are tough and this won't actually do much, so you can start to pile the right elbow into his neck-imagine hammering a blunt nail into concrete.

Some schools of Beng Bu don't have a left punch like you describe.
Some use left hand as sealing(feng Shou) and some as open hand or grab hand.

[BeiTangLang]

Very interesting interpretation!
Question; do you ever have problems with getting your hands crossed up while doing this technique?
Thanks for the post.
Always good to hear a different perspective.

[WhiteMonkey]

First thanks for the replys.

I thought that maybe It was taboo to post app's, because no one was posting, like I had broke the rules.

Three Harmonies- Yes I also use the knee to strike. Great Point

Tainan Mantis- Engage the bridge, is a term I use when training, it's when you and your partner both have your hands up and have made some form of contact, both hands touching forming a bridge, hence the term "engage the bridge" I dont remember where it came from, I think I stole it from my Wing Chun training buddy, there may be another way to say it in PM terms.

I'll post another app, as soon as I have time.

[shirkers1]

Question, how do you guys feel about taking a tactic in a form like stated above and finding other uses or different ways to do the tactic?

Other than hidden or fakes, I'm guessing depending on the teacher some of the tactics are taught differently. I know in our line a lot of the supposed eye gouges aren't really eye gouges at all because the opponent is moving his head and you aren't going to strike the eyes. It's either a grab or a fake. Example laan dzeed move #3 (as well as later on in the form) we use as a grab to the opponents right arm pull and draw his other arm out with a fake, grab his left arm with your left arm and execute a throw with the 7 star stance by crossing his arms up.

One of the examples you give above where you execute a throw by stepping your right leg behind his and throwing with the elbow. Which you actually see in laan dzeed at the end of the 2nd road. So I guess my other question is, the tactics used where you guys say have multiple uses are usually seen in other forms, and I know you pull the tactics out of forms to use as two person drills. So wouldn't you say this ap from bung bo and this ap from laan dzeed?

[humble-one]

Ok ive got an app question for bung bo. at the end of bung bo what is the mantis hands and 7* stance for? as your turning to face another direction is it a new attacker? if so he gets away quite lightly. :)

[shirkers1]

Humble , the way we play it is this.

You turn to face the opponent he throws a left right punch combination. You slap with your RH at his Lwrist, your LH wedges from underneath. (That is the first motion that is done almost at the same time, it starts the figure eight motion you see). Then comes his RH punch, after you LH wedge (this is where the second part of the figure 8 motion comes in) you circle your R arm over and grab is R wrist, your left arm circles over and at the same time your body steps back into a cat stance and you execute an arm bar with your left arm attacking his right elbow.

hope this helps, hopefully I'll have a complete video of this form how we do it up soon. :)

[Davemantis]

Ok 3rd move from the end in Bung Bo.
Left intercept hand in left 7* stance have any of you had a go at this as a chin an move??? If so how did you find it???


Dave

[shirkers1]

Actually in that ap it's just a grab to his wrist then step in with the 7 star mid level punch. You see that chin na ap in laan dzeed 3rd move where someone grabs your wrist you slap down with your other hand on top of his grabbing hand, and you hold his hand down while twisting over.

Where you see chin na tactics in bung bo would be in the 3rd road after the pull with the LH and Palm cut, with the RH you Grab the wrist and chin na, strike with the left hand on his turned wrist.

[Tainan Mantis]

BTL,
I don't have prob getting my hand crossed up, but if the opponent is suddenly unmovable and I can't move his hand I will change to something else.

Shirkers,
True, finger in the eye is tough on a moving target.
It is a little easier when the other hand can contrl the opponent's head.

I sparred a guy who specialized in eye strikes and he got me twice right on the eye, what a surprise.

Sometimes they just happen by accident, so it is nice to prepare.
A few months agao I thought my eye ball was misplaced in the socket and the whole world became double for about 3 minutes.

[shirkers1]

Tainan oh I agree eye gouges have their place. It's just that usually in the forms it's the fake or something completely different. :)

[monkeyfoot]

Bung bo kuen

the third panther movement in the form with the left hand that slides behind the right arm.

Application
Panther - opponent catches it - you bring left arm up and slide the catch off your arm while simutaniously using the sliding hand to hold his catching hand. The 7star foot is applied and the waist chop is applyed to his left side.

Bung bo kuen
Form - Mantis catches cicarda - Kick - finger strike - break - pull wrist - temple.

Application
The right punch comes in, you fall back into a mantis catch, you jump and kick with left leg to his right knee and then right leg to his groin. Just as your right leg lands the finger strike to the eye is thrown and the same hand then breaks the wrist that your left hand should still be holding. The back of wrist strike is then thrown to the throat with the right hand and then the last movement is the crushing of the temple with both hands.

Daw ghong also has some great applications in it. I perticularly like the set of movements after the first shuffle forwards with the circular strike to the groin.
The Block and punch - drill to the groin with right- step together with an upward elbow thrust - hammer down.

sorry i dont know the specific terminology of movements but like everyone i am still learning :P

craig

[monkeyfoot]

Our lineage does the last movement of bung bo as if someone has grabbed your left shoulder from behind with their right hand. The app is simply that your right hand comes down and back around his wrist and then your left places on top. Basically you catch him.

craig

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by monkeyfoot
Bung bo kuen

Form - Mantis catches cicarda - Kick - finger strike - break - pull wrist - temple.

Application
The right punch comes in, you fall back into a mantis catch, you jump and kick with left leg to his right knee and then right leg to his groin. Just as your right leg lands the finger strike to the eye is thrown and the same hand then breaks the wrist that your left hand should still be holding. The back of wrist strike is then thrown to the throat with the right hand and then the last movement is the crushing of the temple with both hands.


Allthough it could be done of course, I don´t like the applications with multiple (more than two) strikes and kicks and the opponent stand there and takes it all!
I prefer to let the second part block and counter so the applications get more fluid and makes more sence!
Of course "final moves" could be found in every form but thats not the point ...

[yu shan]

I was told by Hu Xi Lin, PM strikes to the eyes and kicks to the center of the universe. He is not the only PM Master to tell me this. And for the curious, center on the universe?! Your stones.

[monkeyfoot]

hey german bai lung
you're lee kam lineage like me yea?
i saw you vid of bung bo kuen - v nice mate. Ive been using it to study the finer details of doing the form with speed. My sifu says that its gonna be done in 15 seconds when im at full speed. Have you clocked yourself at all? how did you develop your speed?

craig

[ninjaboy]

Whitemonkey:

in addition to the aplications you listed in your original post, my family likes to play so that, after pulling the opponent's right wrist for the left punch to the face, we continue to hold on to the opponents right wrist also, so that, as we crash down with the elbow to whatever target is available, we create a cross-arm trap at the elbows of the opponent (his left arm under his right) using his own right arm to injure his left elbow or throw him to the ground. you get great leverage and you can still use the elbow to smash over top as everything else is happening. of course, you can trap his legs with yours if you want but it isn't usually necessary at that point.

just a thought : )

sincerely,
neil

[German Bai Lung]

Hi Monkeyfoot,

clocked myself? Why? :)
To become faster in your forms: practise them, 1000 times are not enough!

[Paul T England]

Hi Craig,

No disrespect to you or your Sifu but I don't think anyone could do bung bo properly in 15 seconds. I think 40-45 second is fast. Si-gung Lee said under a minute.

The difficulty I have is that if you focus just on speed you will loose structure, energy/Jing and it visually looks a little nicer when you have a couple of slight pauses.

Paul

[monkeyfoot]

no disrespect taken paul im open minded to all comments. I did think the same thing actually although i have seen a few of our higher practioners do the form at that speed and yet retain correct footwork and posture.

but yes i definatly agree that it is very hard to maintain correctness if you try to concentrate on speed.

Paul can you explain Jing to me? Its not the same as Chi is it? I also heard that we only have a limited supply of it or something. Enlighten me.

[pest]

Hello monkeyfoot,
Im not sure if this will answer your question but here is a link about jing.....

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8637

Hope it helps a little,
~Pest