Why did MAs survive? (flame fest)

[IronFist]

Assuming that a boxer can beat a TMA...

How did traditional martial arts survive? Were they fighting against styles that were even less effective?

Or did they used to be hardcore and they've just been wussified in the last 50 years?

But given the stories of untrained street thugs beating TMA blackbelts, how would TMAists win fights in order to preserve their arts back in the day?

I mean back in the day. Not like now when people like to take martial arts classes to learn how to defend themselves but don't like to get hit or spar in class (read: not actually learning how to defend themselves).

Honestly, this thread is intended to be serious and not a troll attempt.

[red5angel]

Assuming that a boxer can beat a TMA...

why would you assume that?


How did traditional martial arts survive? Were they fighting against styles that were even less effective?

you had a culture that had a way of fighting and a way of approching fighting. It worked ok when people worked hard at it, just like now. IT, like all things needs to adapt to survive, it's just not doing that. Instead it's eyebrow deep in "qi" and meditation and all that other excess crap. Soggy bellied dreamers.......

[MasterKiller]

Chinese martial arts didn't survive past 1928. What planet have you been living on?

[Starchaser107]

there is a jamaican parable that says "coward man keep sound bone"

martial arts has survived to this day because it teaches avoidance moreso than instigating aggression
staying out of conflict , or running away from danger rather than fighting...



lol ...right :D :p

[ShaolinTiger00]

isolation.

You're the king of the castle, just as long as you don't leave the kwoon to compete.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by IronFist
Assuming that a boxer can beat a TMA...



That's quite an ass-umption. :rolleyes:

[Reggie1]

Assuming that a boxer can beat a TMA...

Assuming a boxer from 1990 could beat a TMA from 200 years ago is assuming too much.


How did traditional martial arts survive? Were they fighting against styles that were even less effective?

Or did they used to be hardcore and they've just been wussified in the last 50 years?

I imagine they were a LOT more hardcore back in the day. People probably trained a lot more. No TV, no radio, what's one to do?


But given the stories of untrained street thugs beating TMA blackbelts, how would TMAists win fights in order to preserve their arts back in the day?

That's a classic example of McDojo training. Give me an example of where that has happened in a GOOD TMA school. One that spars at least 1x / week.

[red5angel]

I think for some reason Ironfist threw that out there as some sort of bizarre example of a what if. Atleats I hope....

Assuming anything of the sort is just too much assumption anyway. No matter what time period, or how they train there's a lot more then just the style they train. Some people might assuem a boxer trains harder, but that's not always true.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Reggie1
Assuming a boxer from 1990 could beat a TMA from 200 years ago is assuming too much.

what about a boxer from 200 years ago?



That's a classic example of McDojo training. Give me an example of where that has happened in a GOOD TMA school. One that spars at least 1x / week.

That's the problem with MA today... whenever someone loses, people assume that "there kung fu was crap" or that the person was froma McSchool. Why is it so hard to believe that someone from a good school got mauled? too many excuses...

[Reggie1]

what about a boxer from 200 years ago?

Good question. Let's go dig some up and make a big Rock 'em Sock 'em Robot set and see who wins.


Why is it so hard to believe that someone from a good school got mauled? too many excuses...

It's not that hard to believe. But you're taking what I said out of context. I was answering IronFist's question about the stories of 'untrained street thugs' beating TMA folks. Am I wrong? Do you feel that these muggings IronFist is talking about happen to people from good MA schools as much as they do people from bad schools?

I'm sure lots of people from the best schools in world get beat. I wasn't trying to say that people from good MA schools can't be beaten. I was trying to say that people who spar regularly and attend good schools tend to be better than people who go to McDojo's.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Everybody gets mauled if they test thier skills.

Boxing, honestly, I think it is really, really easy to defeat. Let me correct that. It IS easy to defeat. By itself, even with dirty tricks included, is too limited in scope. I've been there, done that, even against pro boxers. (I had a boxing gym in my school when I had a public school.)

muay thai is a much tougher challenge. My worst beating came at the hands of a MT guy - he was just better than me, regardless of his style, but I think the simple tools used well helped him alot. Oh, and i come from a good school, and i've chewed up and spit out plenty of MT guys in my day.

The argument is really about training methods - and lets face it, a lot of TMA guys have crappy training methods. I've been arguing this since before there was the MMA scene. My old students would tell you that I always felt a high school wrestler was better trained than most TMA guys.

This is an old thread that has been regashed a dozen times.

But lets say Boxing is easily beaten by TMA. Then why has boxing survived?

[Reggie1]

That's a classic example of McDojo training. Give me an example of where that has happened in a GOOD TMA school. One that spars at least 1x / week.

I just reread what I posted. I really didn't mean to sound that stupid. I think it sounded much better in my head than it did in the actual post.

[norther practitioner]

Don King..

sorry, bad joke...

good post Monkey Slap.

[Samurai Jack]

Here's another question. Every time a boxing match is fought one of the boxers loses. How come nobody looks at this 50% loss rate and says "Dude, boxers only have a 50/50 chance of winning a fight, therefore boxing sucks."

Boxing is an awesome martial art. Many boxers are in top condition. Most traditional martial arts are pretty cool too, but alot of thier practitioners are not in top condition. I figure if I just train my a$$ off I'll be come out on top of most fight situations, no matter what art I study.













I could be wrong. ;)

[Yum Cha]

Nice post Ironhead. I love a good flame now and again....

Firstly, boxers get my respect. See the threads on the Southern forum. But, this thread is a joke. I'll bite just to see what you're made of... Sifu Monkey Boy surely outclasses you, and he broke down, you reckon you got more than he did?


Originally posted by IronHead
Assuming that a boxer can beat a TMA...

First demonstration of ignorance....its hardly worth pursuing at this point already. Of course, you realise they teach all the special forces in every country around the world Boxing because its so effective...

How did traditional martial arts survive? Were they fighting against styles that were even less effective?

You answered your own question, they did survive because they proved superior. Mostly by keeping the ignorant arrogant monkeys on the outer, but often by developing with the times while maintaining the lessons of the past. Compare a lifetime pursuit to a young man's sporting adventure and you'll always come up wanting. Its called depth and individual development.

Or did they used to be hardcore and they've just been wussified in the last 50 years?

With the proliferation (you know what that word means? HINT: it doesn't mean "dying off") came dilution, even wussification, but there are still lines that are strong. Take a walk through NY Central Park at night yelling "SPM SUX" and you might meet some.

I've seen girls, kids and old folk doing boxing and target mit work in the park, I realise as boxers they must be incredibly deadly, but I somehow don't shiver and cross the road when I see them...

But given the stories of untrained street thugs beating TMA blackbelts, how would TMAists win fights in order to preserve their arts back in the day?

There is no such thing as a TMA "Blackbelt", that's a McKwoon thing.

Maybe you just live in the world of ****e TMA, rampant commercialism, fraud and a mentality of instant gratification? Back in the day fighters succeeded the same way they do now, through training, commitment (long term) and the skills of great teachers.

I mean back in the day. Not like now when people like to take martial arts classes to learn how to defend themselves but don't like to get hit or spar in class (read: not actually learning how to defend themselves).

Your ignorance is only out classed by your arrogance. Everybody will one day face a superior opponent, you mistakenly compare prizefighting with self defence, and brutality with art.

There will always be better, there will always be worse, this is life, and it has nothing to do with style, it has to do with natural selection, and individual commitment. There are fine boxers, but you can't seem to accept there are fine TMA practitioners. This is your weakness, and one day, perhaps you will pay the toll.

If you kick my a$$ are you a better martial artist? If my Staffordshire Terrior takes a bite out of you a$$ is it a better martial artist? No, just a dangerous dumb animal.

Honestly, this thread is intended to be serious and not a troll attempt.

Bull****e - you're just searching because your training leaves you insecure, unfulfilled and looking into the mirror whining, "there MUST be something MORE!!!"


Truth is, you tma bashers are all just worthless and weak. Worthless in that you can't understand what you're missing,
Weak in that you don't have the discipline to understand that there are things you don't know or understand.

See one whimpy TMA player and you think all are the same. Its not the style, its the man, so it is as it has always been.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm going with the "it died in 1928" comment. It's up to us to revive it. (Can someone pass the Popcorn?)

Guys like MS2 and his crew are doing a damm goood job of it BTW.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Boxing, honestly, I think it is really, really easy to defeat. Let me correct that. It IS easy to defeat. By itself, even with dirty tricks included, is too limited in scope. I've been there, done that, even against pro boxers. (I had a boxing gym in my school when I had a public school.)


BL??? :eek:

[IronFist]

Yes I know what "proliferation" means. How is that even relevant to this thread?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by IronFist
BL??? :eek:

Nope, Monkeyslap is a badass, in an independently verifiable manner. He knows his ****.

[Starchaser107]

he looks badass from his pic:D

[Vash]

He looks like a fukcin' Soprano in his pic.

No offense :eek: :D

[red5angel]

I figure if I just train my a$$ off I'll be come out on top of most fight situations, no matter what art I study.


don't spill the secret please ;)


who pulled yum cha out of the @ss he had his head up?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
The argument is really about training methods - and lets face it, a lot of TMA guys have crappy training methods. I've been arguing this since before there was the MMA scene. My old students would tell you that I always felt a high school wrestler was better trained than most TMA guys.


beautiful.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Truth is, you tma bashers are all just worthless and weak. Worthless in that you can't understand what you're missing,
Weak in that you don't have the discipline to understand that there are things you don't know or understand.

does that not work both ways? look at some of the TMA posters on this form - sihing, fu-pow,buddy and a host of others. They are just as - if not more - one sided than this.

[Dark Knight]

The argument is really about training methods - and lets face it, a lot of TMA guys have crappy training methods. I've been arguing this since before there was the MMA scene. My old students would tell you that I always felt a high school wrestler was better trained than most TMA guys.

You have been trained in the truth

[SevenStar]

First demonstration of ignorance....its hardly worth pursuing at this point already. Of course, you realise they teach all the special forces in every country around the world Boxing because its so effective...

they teach whatever they feel like contracting. there are taiji guys that teach them. there are taiji guys that have taught them, jkd and thai boxing guys that have taught them, etc. all of the branches do however have boxing teams, and the army teaches bjj in basic from what I understand. The idea is to make an aggressive soldier. My friend is in the marine's MACMAP program, and what he is learning is basically chin na, basic striking and bjj. I think that program just depends on the experience of the teacher.

You answered your own question, they did survive because they proved superior.

superior to WHAT is his question.

Mostly by keeping the ignorant arrogant monkeys on the outer, but often by developing with the times while maintaining the lessons of the past. Compare a lifetime pursuit to a young man's sporting adventure and you'll always come up wanting. Its called depth and individual development.

Then why have boxing, thai boxing, wrestling, etc. survived?


With the proliferation (you know what that word means? HINT: it doesn't mean "dying off") came dilution, even wussification, but there are still lines that are strong. Take a walk through NY Central Park at night yelling "SPM SUX" and you might meet some.

and that's the argument people always have. "it's out there if you look for it"


There is no such thing as a TMA "Blackbelt", that's a McKwoon thing.

There's no such thing as a CMA black belt. There are other TMA do have belt ranks. However, I don't think that a school is a McSchool merely because they try to enstate a ranking system. That's merely assisting them in instilling patience in students while at the same time giving them something to strive for. The people that abuse it to get money, however, is a McSchool thing.


Your ignorance is only out classed by your arrogance. Everybody will one day face a superior opponent, you mistakenly compare prizefighting with self defence, and brutality with art.

right, but if you aren't putting yourself in the position to find those people, you will never know. I think that's what he's getting at. There are several TMA schools that either don't spar or don't spar for a long time. There is a guy at my bjj school who cross trains in longfist. Just last night, he was telling me about the outlook of chinese vs. americans when it comes to patience. He was saying that she would teach him san shou "in a while" he asked "what's a while?" And her response was "5 years maybe...a while"

prizefighting is not mistaken for self defense, but those who prize fight are capable of defending themselves. Brutality, IMO can be art. you expression of fighting is art. Do you fight exactly the way your teacher does? Most likely, you don't. That individual expression is art.


If you kick my a$$ are you a better martial artist? If my Staffordshire Terrior takes a bite out of you a$$ is it a better martial artist? No, just a dangerous dumb animal.

This I agree with.


Bull****e - you're just searching because your training leaves you insecure, unfulfilled and looking into the mirror whining, "there MUST be something MORE!!!"

Why do so many traditional guys tend to think this way? I personally am not looking for anything more. When I was doing TMA, I wasn't looking for anything more.

As far as insecurity goes - who would be more insecure - the one who competes, knows his weaknesses, knows his strengths and regularly tests himself, or someone who doesn't?

[Yum Cha]

Geezzz, for a flame war, you guys are acting much to reasonable....

Only Red Angle really bit, and I always worry about a guy pre-occupied with blokes' asses....

What? Did the collective learn something from the last round of flame wars about traditional vs non-traditional bru-ha-ha?

7*...

The original premise of this thread was boxing vs TMA. So, MMA, BBJ, Mui Thai, etc was moot. Anyway, Boxing fused with TMA to create "kickboxing" and a multitude of derivatives too numerous to mention.... Wrestling fused with TMA (Ju jitsu) to create BBJ. So, the influence of TMA shows if nothing else, its viability.

All the flaming rhetoric aside (I'm humbled by the restraint) I agree with monkeyslap, too, that its about training, not about style. Any fool that thinks there are secret powers or shortcuts to martial excellence deserves what he doesn't get.

I think the question comes down to what are those training methods and is there more than one option.

Sure you need to learn "ring craft" as an element of self defense.
Sure, you need to learn to get hit as part of the lesson.

But, Sport fighting, just like "mystical arm waving" is incomplete training, if you want to reach a higher level.

I react with instinct under fire. Training the instinct so I snap it off is the objective. Ask yourself, what instincts are you training?

Lets say one trains to break elbows. Its an easy finish, and probably not fatal, and you could even argue in court, if there were no witnesses, "he fell wrong". There are two ways to do it, the maiming way, and the non-maiming way. And, when "playing" with friends or students, its not the kind of thing you want to practice.

You want the tool, you do the study the way the tool dictates. If you do the study first, and limit it, you have to accept that the tools are limited too. A tool is only yours when you master it, otherwise, you'll not find it in your instincts when your mind goes feral. Thus the saying, "a journey of 10,000 steps". Repitition.

And can we talk about age? Last time I was in a boxing gym, the only guys over 40 had towels over their shoulder and weren't wearing gloves. At 50, how can one expect to defend themself self against a fit, powerful, young opponent unless one can finish quickly? How will one best train for those days. Or perhaps we simply see golf in our future? 9-iron-do?

Some of the counter points you raised:

People say its out there, just hard to find....

Yea, kinda sux doesn't it? Too much BS, too little substance. Remind you of anything else in life?

Belts, yes, it is a tma thing, not a tcma thing. Fair enough.

Solders learn quick kill stuff on duty, knives and guns. They pick up whatever is available in their off-duty time from the local market or friends. TMA rate highly, as does MMA. Boxing is for fun, unit competitions, health. When you rotate every 3 years its hard to follow a Teacher for a long time. At least that's my experience as an Army Brat. But, regardless of training, never underestimate a man that's mentally conditioned to kill. Bad as junkies, mean as dogs.

"prizefighting is not mistaken for self defense, but those who prize fight are capable of defending themselves. Brutality, IMO can be art. you expression of fighting is art. Do you fight exactly the way your teacher does? Most likely, you don't. That individual expression is art."

Your most interesting point, and thought provoking. Is brutality an art? Makes me think of some kind of Silence of the Lambs scenario.... Sure, prizefighters can defend themselves, and most at a very capable level, the "manly arts" etc, etc. And, quite quickly too, a couple of years of boxing teaches you a lot.

Again, to me, its a sense of depth, strategy and technique that develops over time to a higher level that makes the difference. Back in my day, I was the classic kickboxer with tma forms. I fought nothing like my teacher. 19 years later, you nailed my challenge in one, to fight more like my teacher, and not to "revert." It is the pursuit of this single challenge where I learned the most about my art, myself and our theories of close combat. And likewise, there are non-combat aspects to our art, and while many people may find them irrelevent, they bear their own rewards. You fight a man, you fight his mind. While you train your body, do you equally train your mind?

As for the rest of my milarkey, just trolling. Show me a man that lives and I'll find an insecurity somewhere...

[David Jamieson]

Assuming that a boxer can beat a TMA...

assumptions are bad mkay? :p

[Gongfu]

Practice and more practice

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
I react with instinct under fire. Training the instinct so I snap it off is the objective. Ask yourself, what instincts are you training?

Lets say one trains to break elbows. Its an easy finish, and probably not fatal, and you could even argue in court, if there were no witnesses, "he fell wrong". There are two ways to do it, the maiming way, and the non-maiming way. And, when "playing" with friends or students, its not the kind of thing you want to practice. How do you know you react with instinct under fire? How do you know you can break an elbow in the first place, not to mention in a "maiming" way?

[Yum Cha]

Fair Question Knife fighter.

In live practice, light sparring, whatever you want to call it, I can trap and grab an opponent, and arm bar them into the ground, I can feel the elbow to the limit, and I don't follow through with the "shock" that I'm trained to put into the move. i.e. there's a lot left.

And no, I'm not talking about walk throughs, demonstrations on junior students, I'm talking about cross training I do with other stylists who don't want to lose...

I don't go after the capture, It just happens now and again and I have to stop as quickly as I start it. Taking the opponent to the ground is just a way of making the point they can't get away. Sometimes I just release once I have the grip because I know I made the difficult part, especially with friends.

I do train it in combinations and forms extensively. I don't want to train to stop it, I want to train to do it quickly, its just a grab and a big body twitch. That's one reason I don't spar that much, just now and again to take my measure.

The maiming way (shattering) is easier than doing the dislocation. That's the one I worry about. Going for the compasionate move and paying a toll...

Now, may I?

How do you know you are such a good knife fighter?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
How do you know you are such a good knife fighter? I don't.

[Becca]

As far as insecurity goes - who would be more insecure - the one who competes, knows his weaknesses, knows his strengths and regularly tests himself, or someone who doesn't?
Moot point, as there is not enough info to base a answer on. Insecurity is as insecurity does. I have never competed, but I am confident I can defend myself. Why? Because I have already had to. That may or may not be enough for someone else. When you come right down to it, it has everything to do with wether the idividual's outlook is realistic or not. Mike Tyson can fight very well. But that don't meen he can streat fight. Does it matter? Not to me...:)

[scotty1]

But given the stories of untrained street thugs beating TMA blackbelts, how would TMAists win fights in order to preserve their arts back in the day?

Isn't that a comparison between differnet time periods and standards?

This thread should have stopped with Monkeyslap's post.

[David Jamieson]

I have never competed, but I am confident I can defend myself. Why? Because I have already had to. That may or may not be enough for someone else.

That's plenty enough for me! :D

I put much more stock in someone who has experienced real street experience be it domestic violence or be it street violence, bar fights etc etc. Much more realistic use of defensive skills tahn any boxing ring.

If your chosen style works in those bad situations, then that is a greater measure of you and your developed skills.

imo

[Ray Pina]

Martial Arts survived for the same reason that Yoga, Fencing, fishing and hunting servived .... some people are drawn to it.

With guns you may say there is no need for MA, and with farms and fishing fleets there is no need for fishing and hunting, but some people are just drawn to it.

Martial arts, like Yoga, offers the body a healthy way to stay fit, not pushing too much weight around, and if its trained right it can help the joints, not hurt it (too bad I had many years of bad practice that hurt me knee).

Now, I know the real intent of this discussion is to walk down the, "which style is better" and "what style you're doing is no good."

I'll keep it broad. Most MA are happy just being part of the tradition. A few will take it ****her and look into what that tradition trully means and look to particpate in keeping it alive, they will seek to turn their bodies into weapons.

Now, of that group, their is a sub-group that wishes to go out and explore how well they have crafted their weapon and compare it to others who have done the same.

There is a lot of pressure today to be studying "The real thing?" Who has it?

I view it like this: There is a race across the dessert. You can choose a dune bugguie, a dirt bike or Mad Max beat up helicopter type of thing.

Work on your vehicle and prepare it. On race day, maybe certain variables favor one vehicle over another.

But don't choose dune buggie work on it for two months and then the day before decide you want to use a dirt bike, and then race day change and say now you want to use the helicopter.

Learn YOUR craft.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by scotty1
This thread should have stopped with Monkeyslap's post. Yep... but it's still a good discussion.

BTW, since I'm about to go to bed and don't have anything short enough to add: I liked Samurai Jack's '50% of boxers lose too'...:)

[scotty1]

Nice.