Whatever Happened to Martial Morals???

[Songshan]

Well, I often asked myself this question as time passed and thought about posting this for a while now. I decided to post or perhaps vent about this topic because lately I haven't liked what I have been reading particularly on these forums.

What really brought me to write about this is the latest flaming posts about certain Shaolin Kung Fu monks by certain members of the forum community here. Another example, a flaming post in this section alone about a chinese master is easily seen here. As I began researching this and searching this forum alone, I realized that it's just not happening to the monks and some of their students but also often includes other masters from various styles and their students. So I said to myself, whatever happened to martial morals?? Does anyone still practice Wu de??

You know most professions have what they call a code of ethics. Police officers, lawyers, doctors, nurses and well..... even martial artists of course! What are ethics you may ask? The dictionary says ethics is "the philosophical study of moral values and rules". I think many people get confused and say it's all "freedom of speech" and ignore the ethics. Now, I agree that you can post or say your opinions just like the guy next to you can. You have the right to say just about anything you want, but you reap what you sow. A police officer can throw someone in jail for something as minor as a traffic violation, a doctor can prescribe any drug for any reason to anyone, a lawyer can negotiate your fate, a nurse can neglect to do his or her job at a hospital and martial artists can learn martial arts for the wrong reasons......or flame other masters and students because they think what they are learning is the "real deal" and the others are "fake". But is it ethical?

What's the point to all this? Try using martial morals in everything you do, not just in the school. You are who you represent. The posts criticizing martial art masters, styles and students are tasteless and just plain unethical. Some of these masters have 15 + years of learning and teaching martial arts. Who are we to discredit them and tell them what they have been studying for the last 15 years doesn't work or it's fake? If the style or teaching methods isn't for you then you find something else you like. Thanks for listening, ok reading. ;)

[Royal Dragon]

Oom Yung Doe/Chung moo Quan, Temple Kung Fu, Shaolin Do ad even those knobs who teach Tai Chi, Hsing I and Bagua but "Claim" it is Tai Tzu Chang Chuan because it is the art of the Emperor and has better marketing value than the mainstream stuff they are actually teaching thier students.

Simply put, there are ALOT of frauds out there in the MA world today. Heck, it's SO bad that second and third generations are now out continuing the lies and not even knowing it anymore. I think it is the responsiblity of those who are "in the know" to stand up and counter all the BS being perpetrated out there.


"All it takes for evil to suceed, is Good men to say nothing"

[cerebus]

Right you are RD. Do you remember when we were both on the same MA discussion board back around '94 and Ashida Kim would come on and start cursing everyone out and going off on rambling political monologues against President Clinton? :D

Man, there are some real fruits out there. Another favorite of mine was "Soke Dr. Grandmaster Undisputed World Kickboxing and Kumite Champion" Irving Soto (who has since added "Hanshi" to his list of "titles" he always sticks in front of his name :rolleyes: ), who supposedly holds "Grandmaster" titles in 9 different martial arts and trained with a Japanese master whose name he never learned (he claims that he always just called him "Sensei"). Oh yeah, and he claims that he won his "weighht division" in the same "Kumite" that Frank Dux was "Heavyweight" champion in (even though Dux claimed there were no weight divisions, AND it's been proven that Dux made the whole story up anyway... he's another good one).

So, there are plenty of people out ther calling themselves "masters", but it doesn't neccessarily make it so. Yeah, sometimes people are harsh on those they think are fulla crap, but sometimes that's how it has to be.

[Becca]

Sometimes those oppinions are base on the same stuff... I have seen some GMs ripped for no reason other than someone didn't think they "looked real in thier old photos.":rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

To not question and examine is a greater error in my opinion.

To not tolerate any scrutiny is a weakness.

I understand what you are saying, but it is incredibly dangerous to put anyone on a pedistal and even more so to see anyone as above or below you yourself.

No one is beyond a deeper look. And if those individuals who walk into a controversial position in the first place and expect it to be a cakewalk, then they themselves will have to deal with it.

Afterall, what is reality but illusion? And what are we in the end?

Wu De or the lack of it is not the problem in my opinion, it is fat egos and tempestuous personalities. Sure some of the people saying these things come across as foolish but consider this:

Only a fool takes heed of the words of another fool. Also, something worth thinking about is that which we are most repulsed by is more often than not strongly present in ourselves.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Royal Dragon:
I think it is the responsiblity of those who are "in the know" to stand up and counter all the BS being perpetrated out there.
Agreed, but.. so much of the supposed "in the know" posters in here still post what appears to be BS that it is difficult for a novice or even someone with mediocre experience to figure out who is "in the know"..

The decline of Wude is consistent with the general decline of morals in society, not that i have a solid understanding of "morals".. it seems that even amongst the "authorities" in the morals department (clergy, lawmakers, role-models, etc..) there is a generous amount of evidence that the values they speak are not the values they live.. regardless of what someone says, it is their life that defines their "morals"..

On the other hand, "morals" are not a universal truth, there are no fixed standards for evaluating what is or isn't "moral".. each situation demands its own evaluation in terms of culture, consequences, and variables.. things considered immoral in one culture may be virtuous in another.. is it immoral to take a life? well, that depends on the situation..

Personally, i evaluate my "intentions", i consider the consequences, and act accordingly.. ultimately, i strive to "do no harm", unless i am forced to choose between harms with consequences that i must evaluate with the harmony of others in mind..

Regarding "fake" or suspicious claims, or dubious lineages, or mutated styles.. i simply suggest "truth in labeling", tell them what it is that you do.. in the end, the instructors and their students will be the proof of its validity.. what are their accomplishments? For the insightful and courageous pioneers that developed original styles, they had no "lineages", only a system that had observable results.. that is the standard, results.. Any claim is subject to challenge and rebuttal, any person making a claim should be prepared to support it with proof or action or in the situation where "proof" is unavailable (spiritual, paranormal, etc..) sufficient anecdotal evidence as to be convincing of the merits of the claim..

Be well..

[BM2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I think it is the responsiblity of those who are "in the know" to stand up and counter all the BS being perpetrated out there.


From your profile : Almight, all seeing, ll powerful [b]KNOWITALL!!!!

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!! Forgot I had that in there!!!

[red5angel]

I tell you what Songshan, you figure out how to get all the crap out of the martial arts, all the wanna be sifus' all the soggy bellied wanna be warrior monks and all the people doing it for the money, the prestige and the power, and I'll practice Wu De and not talk bad about people who suck ass. Otherwise, as far as I'm conerned, with all the talk of Wu De, no one seems to be wanting to do anything about all those people out there ruining the arts for everyone else.

fukk wude

[David Jamieson]

ruiners!

[red5angel]

Harlots!!!!!

[Taomonkey]

On a side note,

My teacher once told me that there were more Grand Masters in America than there have ever been in Asia.

I personally know of one here locally, who recieved a brown belt from his JKD teacher, got his black belt in TKD mail order video tape, joined the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame, and without even attending another seminar is now a 10th Dan Grandmaster of his own style, the head of many world wide organizations, (which he and some of his friends founded), and has a fairly large group of "Certified Instructors" around the world.

To these people Martial Arts is Business and

THERE ARE NO ETHICS IN BUSINESS

regardless of what you heard in Billy Madison.

[red5angel]

10th Dan Grandmaster of his own style

more then anything else in the martial arts world I despise this sort of sh!t. That's the epitomy of greed wannabe. Some guy doesn't have the patience to wait to earn the respect, and the skill so he has to go out find all teh short cuts he can, create his own style and get certified through some round about way. Guys like this should be beaten senseless by every other martial artist in his community until he gets the picture.

[Dark Knight]

Showing who is a fraud is subjective. Are you proving they are not from a lineage? Are you showing someone is not teaching a style? Or that they are not the rank they say they are.

Look at USSD from the Villari lineage. They call it Shaolin Kempo Karate; it was developed from Fred Villari. Is it fraud? He does not claim that he learned from the Shaolin Monks (I realize Steve Demasco is now going to China) and many CMA people say what he teaches is not Shaolin, he says that what he learned goes back to Shaolin, but many styles can say that.

As far as rank, is Villari a 10th and Steve a 9th or 10th? Who is to say, there is no standard, that’s one of the problems the MA have.

I do not know a lot about Shaolin do, but if he created the system, I would have to see it to make a judgment on it. IS it Shaolin? Doesn’t sound like it. Is it effective? Could be.

Is he a Grand Master? No standards, but after 30 years of training he should have some skill and knowledge.

What makes a master?
Gene Labelle is a 9th degree in Ju-Jitsu and an 8th in Judo. He does not like to be called Master. He likes Sensei.

If I were to measure myself against a man like him I would never be called a master.

In some systems its at 4th, some 7th, some higher.

[red5angel]

Showing who is a fraud is subjective. Are you proving they are not from a lineage?

not really, if you can't use it to fight or can't train multiple people to use it to fight then you are fake.

I say we delete the master and granmaster titles from martial arts for ever. You're either an instructor or a student.

[Dark Knight]

the head of many world wide organizations, (which he and some of his friends founded), and has a fairly large group of "Certified Instructors" around the world.

Here is where you get "legitimatization"

You have all your friends join and promote each other, then they get their friends in. After a while you have a huge organization through the world of "Soke's"

When someone says you are a fake you tell them you are recognized by the largest Soke organization in the world.

I wont mention any names, but on well known one has a standard of you must be a 6th in 3 styles then create your own to be considered a Soke.

Poof you are promoted to 10th.

[Dark Knight]

I say we delete the master and granmaster titles from martial arts for ever. You're either an instructor or a student.

I agree.

[Taomonkey]

So I guess a good question is how many blue belts are equal to a black belt.
Seems these ecletic guys all have trained in so many styles,
I have seen several styles, and have attended seminars of several different arts, but I would never say I have studied them, I have only been exposed to them.

Its interesting that most post a huge martial arts resume of many balckbelts, then a few huge promotions, like from 2nd degree to 5th in a year, then 5th to 10th dan in a year.

I'm not calling them frauds, what they teach may fit thier students. Heck if its just throwing punches and kicks into the air for an hour, it has some value. But I will never call them Grand Master.

If someone ask if my art is bettter than another, I answer that for me it is. Other than that what they do doesn't affect me. I still train everyday whether they are training or not. If you want to learn from me great, if not fine, it doesnt change how I train.

[red5angel]

I have seen several styles, and have attended seminars of several different arts, but I would never say I have studied them, I have only been exposed to them.

That's the problem, some guys get a little training and then have suddenly mastered the art.
The school I hate the most around here is like that. The dude studied one art a long time ago. Now he hires people to teach other arts, he trains a little with them and claims to have mastered them. He also jumps on every bandwagon you could have jumped on in the past decade. He offers - EBMAS, Aerobic Kickboxing, Krav Maga, Mixed martial arts, Taichi, Yoga, and so on. It's also the kind of school where you have to pay 15$ just to go check out the class.

[Dark Knight]

Joker of many master of none.

I see that alot, then you have someone with nor base.

[GeneChing]

There have always been and will always be chalatans in the martial arts. Just look at our history and you'll find plenty of examples of charlatanism. It's just the nature of the beast. Consequently, there will always be those that complain about charlatans, but to me, that's a lot like complaining about the cold wind and rain.

The best way to combat charlatans is not to complain. Just exemplify wude in yourself. And (this is the hard part) expect no reward for doing so.

[chiman12345]

Master sun said: True victory lies not in winning every battle, but in defeating your opponent without ever having to fight.

Because in my opinion, if there is no morale force behind a man, he is just flesh and blood and is unworthy of qi.

[David Jamieson]

you know, the first 9 Dans just made the party confusing, but when that 10th Dan showed up, yeesh!

I always figured the Dan system was a karate one.

my first karate teacher used a belt and dan system.

white/yellow/red/brown/black and then dans, but he could go past 4th because he himself was a 5th.

My tkd teacher also had a belt system. Holy yikes he had a whack of em, but most of em were pretty easy to get to including the black. After that (about 2 years for most students) he also used dan rankings.

My former kungfu sifu used belts and instructor levels not dans or duans. he also used the filial system. Filial to satisfy the traditional ways and sashes to satisfy us western students constant need for validation and pats on the head :p

But 10th Dan! wow, that is some wicked bad ass mofo... or he's dead as has been mentioned (in the trad japanese way).

Western interpretation of Asian Martial arts has sure made that stew taste funny, but if you get past the gooey sticky congealed blob on top of the pot, the stews pretty good underneath!

[SPJ]

All in due time.

Cause and effect.

Or what goes around and comes around.

There are plenty of false claimants of MA.

The worst one is Tai Ji Quan.

My brother studied Zhao Bao Tai Ji and Qi Gong.

I was enslaved by Chen Tai Ji Lao Jia and still am.

Which means I practice more time with it than anything else.

We never claim we are the masters.

We know a lot and we practice a lot.

We see a lot of false Tai Ji everywhere.

We just laugh.

True gold will pass the test of the fire.

Cheng Jing Bu Pa Huo Nian.

:cool:

[Songshan]

Originally posted by red5angel
I tell you what Songshan, you figure out how to get all the crap out of the martial arts, all the wanna be sifus' all the soggy bellied wanna be warrior monks and all the people doing it for the money, the prestige and the power, and I'll practice Wu De and not talk bad about people who suck ass. Otherwise, as far as I'm conerned, with all the talk of Wu De, no one seems to be wanting to do anything about all those people out there ruining the arts for everyone else.

fukk wude

This is what exactly I am talking about. I am not saying I have all the answers. Let's keep the thread to the topic and pure. I am not talking about the frauds or the fakes. I think we all can see something's up with the mail order black belt program. You can go visit a martial arts school and know something is not right if you believe there is something wrong with the lineage. Frauds are frauds and yes sooner or later they will be exposed. What I am mainly talking about talking about is you the martial artist...the person. The guy behind the screen name.

It's easy for anyone to post here and call people "soggy bellied wanna be warrior monks" and say that there are people who "suck ass". But this is a prime example of the lack of Wu de. There seems to be a great lack of respect to masters and students. For example, would your shifu approve of your conduct about posting such messages? Does your shifu instill good principles in you?

While it may seem that no one wants to anything about
people "ruining the arts", it would be fair to say that there are no guidelines to martial art styles and that anyone can come up with any strange idea and call it a art/style. Yeah, those who are just trying to gain financial wealth usually do and yes the martial art world suffers another blow. Their conduct is yet still unethical.

[Songshan]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
To not question and examine is a greater error in my opinion.

To not tolerate any scrutiny is a weakness.

I understand what you are saying, but it is incredibly dangerous to put anyone on a pedistal and even more so to see anyone as above or below you yourself.

No one is beyond a deeper look. And if those individuals who walk into a controversial position in the first place and expect it to be a cakewalk, then they themselves will have to deal with it.

Afterall, what is reality but illusion? And what are we in the end?

Wu De or the lack of it is not the problem in my opinion, it is fat egos and tempestuous personalities. Sure some of the people saying these things come across as foolish but consider this:

Only a fool takes heed of the words of another fool. Also, something worth thinking about is that which we are most repulsed by is more often than not strongly present in ourselves.

To question and not examine is an error, absolutely. Everyone questions and examines potential martial art schools before they join. To question and examine with respect is the key here.

Fat egos and some personalities are part of the problem. "Something worth thinking about is that which we are most repulsed by is more often than not strongly present in ourselves". Yeah, I would agree and perhaps maybe that is why I have strong feelings on this issue. There are lots of times I wanted to post personal feelings about the Shaolin Temple flamers, post personal feelings on certain issues. post about people who call all modern songshan kung fu students "wanna bes", people who call the monks fake, dismiss modern shaolin as "wushu". Human nature usually says flame back....but I always think about it and realize that it would be unethical....wrong. I would become no better than those who slander on these forums. I always believed that there are right ways to do things and there are wrong ways to do things. Maybe I am just part of the last few that believe in wu de.

[Becca]

I always believed that there are right ways to do things and there are wrong ways to do things. Maybe I am just part of the last few that believe in wu de.
Not so few as you might think. Just less vocal and abraisive. One thing I make a point of reminding myself, is that it is not personal. Those who attack me sight unseen, or even if they have seen me, would attack anyone else with just as little provocation. As it is some imaginary foe they are going after, I cannot be the target, and there fore, there is no need to agnolagde the slight.


... Don't always work, but it helps....:rolleyes:

[BM2]

I grew up with 5 brothers and 2 sisters. When one of us would complain about what another was doing or not, we were told that we should be more concerned about our own actions. If that advice wasn't taken, additional housework was metted out to keep us busy from worrying about someone else's perceived flaws.
At the time I thought my Mom and Dad were tired of having 8 kids ratting on each other. I understand there was an additional lesson.
This thread is just a reminder of that lesson. It will only serve as a reminder for some, others will not care. It is how we treat each other, martial arts or not.

[David Jamieson]

To question and examine with respect is the key here.

Western society is decidedly lacking education in the area of respect and allowance of dignity in others.

Don't believe me? take a look around.

Belligerance is something that is everyday everyday.
Soime people even think that they are actually "cool" because the act like a ***** or a total ******* towards others in business.

Television is rife with mean spirited over competitive types vying for a little money and some frame time.

The attitiudes and morals of the entire society are in tatters.
I think there is a greater question than protecting the traditions and diginities of a few martial arts guys and girls.

Education needs change, how we deal with each other in business and everyday life needs to be changed.
We need to see respect and appreciation as a more common thing in our society, but because of various demons such as fear and doubt, laziness and greed, et al, it will be a hard journey forward.

P.S this doesn't mean go running to the shelter of a church! IT MEANS TAKE A LOOK AT YOURSELF FIRST.

Thank you
That is all
:p

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Treat people the way you wish to be treated yourself, regardless of their attitude.. the rest will take care of itself.. Now, that being said, i believe that everyone practices this concept, so.. if someone expresses a poor attitude i assume that they wish to be treated the same way.. (not really, but occasionally it just works out that way..)

The title (whatever it may be) should be bestowed on someone by their peers, superiors and students, all in agreement.. self-proclaimed "masters", etc.. have no foundation, no authority.. a title is recognition by others, not a self-appointed position.. we are all just people on a path, some further along than others.. to the degree that those further along can help us find our way, we acknowledge their place on the path through a gesture of respect.. whether that be a title, a formal ritual of bows and gifts, or just a polite nod of respect, we simply acknowledge the time and effort invested to find their place on the path..

Charlatans are a perennial topic of disdain, but.. they serve a purpose, they acquire a body of students that are not sufficiently clever to make wise choices, and given the amount of time spent learning from a charlatan, the hapless student reinforces the need to be there.. the true aspiring warrior soon sees the charlatan for what they are and moves on, there are simply too many resources available to plead ignorance in these matters.. however, if that is all that is available, there is no fault in the student's taking advantage of whatever may be useful in the charlatan's program..

Be well..