Making a living teaching IMA

[Hau Tien]

Saw a similar question on the mantis forum about making a living teaching martial arts.

What about with teaching something like xing yi, bagua, tai chi, or liu he ba fa? Is it more difficult to teach those arts for a living? What about kids classes? My LHBF teacher wouldn't start people unless they were (at the least) around 16 years old. My current teacher (who does not teach for a living) takes mainly older students (18+) as well. Is this common practice for other teachers of internal arts?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Interesting thoughts I was speaking of this in a park this morning to a friend. What I see happing a lot is that people have an idea of what their looking for, people try to satisfy it, within limits. they do this order to keep students. The art gets taught almost backwards. This is not much of a problem except for those that feel they have achived the inner core when they really have only the shell, for some this may be all they need, for others they will need to go back to deepen their practice.

What becomes common, becomes the accepted norm, with the higher levels being reached and taught by very few. So much so that real skills are laughed at or not belived and the lower skills are held to be high level.

Like a high end anything, the higher levels will always be there in the back ground but only assessable for the few.
may we all reach them:cool:

[shang wu]

I have a few thoughts. What is a living? Many artists eek by on a small budget and make ends meet, and are fulfilled with there art and there life style .In a culture of materialism where multimillion dollar images are fed to us like candy, what is your expectation? As for a living I think CMA provides a great living if living is life. It keeps you healthy, slows down the ageing process, and when done holistically Mind and body there is tremendous peace in its philosophical teachings, to which one I will refer to “ when is enough a enough “ ? As for business consider Identify and acknowledge the difference between Taiji quan fa and Taiji qigong and that the former has the later, and the later rarely has the former. Both are of great value to those that seek their benefit, on a business level if we identify each market we can best serve our charges.

[omarthefish]

Shang Wu touched on a few of my thoughts as well. I have met enough full time martial artists with no day jobs who did NOT water down the stuff or lower standards to survive. They weren't spectaculary busy schools but they were staying open. I also see nothing wrong with having different curriculums for different kinds of students. I haven't figured out how a bunch of "low level" students interferes with the ability of other folks to get to the "real stuff". It just may take some creative scheduling.

My teacher here in China keeps a kids class and he doesn't even run a school. 8-10 year olds doing Baji or practicing pi quan in a big circle around the perimiter of the park. I show up at 6 am and do my bagua for an hour or so and Sifu shows up around 7 for his second run of the his taiji. About 7:30 or so I head up into the artificial "mountain" built in the middle of the park to work on my Baji privately for an hour. Around 8 Sifu starts his kids class. By 8:30 I come down and get my personal instruction from him while he sends the kids off to another area do drill on their own. Periodically he checks up on them and then comes back to give me some more private instruction.

All in all the kids get their 1 hour lesson. I get 2+ hours of dedicated practice and maybe 1/2 hour of private instruction along with another 1/2 hour where he just kind fo checks up on me. How are the kids interfering with my practice? And what makes anyone think that these kids...if they keep up with it into their teens...won't deepen their practice as they get older. The 10 year old girl learning bagua is going to be amazing if she keeps at it as she matures.

1. Material even for internal styles is just taught at what ever level the student can accept it.

2. These other kids are also a kind of talent farm. I've overheard Sifu mention one of his motivations for the kids class is to develop training partners for his grandson.


...those that feel they have achived the inner core when they really have only the shell, for some this may be all they need, for others they will need to go back to deepen their practice.


It's not always going "back". It may me more like continuing forward. Sifu's grandson for example, his form is not nearly as impressive to an outsider as MANY of the little kids doing longfist in our area. China has some incredibly agile little 10 year olds. But at 10 Sifu's grandson, though not as acrobatic or pretty as the long fist kids...he already has the seeds planted for real internal power. You can see the tiny little kernal of softness within hard in his Baji. It's not particularly powerfull but the growth is aimed in the right direction.

[bamboo_ leaf]

;)

[ngokfei]

What is your idea of making a living?

Barely surviving without savings for your old age

or being able to buy a new car for cash and vacation in another country twice a year.


Anything can be achieved, you just have to have the correct spin or approach. The customer is always right.


It also has to do with your skill level. If your only teaching the "health aspect" then you have a specific customers.

Teaching for "combat/self defense" you have a totally different customer base.

My advice. Keep your day job and then teach for enjoyment.

have done the full time teaching thing and it really tests your morals.

i guess that's it.

[Mighty Mungbean]

I am in the middle of a transition, myself. After a year of 8 Step Preying Mantis I realized that if I was to progress I was going to have to make some serious improvements in my overall conditioning. As the father of three girls under eight available time for conditioning is somewhat limited. My answer? Find a job that encourages or provides opportunity for additional training. I became certified as a personal trainer. Now I workout with my clients, providing them with added motiviation and me the extra training. As an adjunct I teach beginning Taiji classes for the group fitness programs for a couple of gyms. Like yoga, Taiji is all the rage now and everyone wants a piece of its benefits.

I teach the Yang short form and I stress this is a beginner's class as I am not qualified to teach anything more. Here are some of my observations.

Most people can't handle the real deal. My Taiji instructor is from mainland China and has been training in Wushu since he was ten and in Taijiquan since he was twenty. My classes (at a separate gym) are consistently larger than his, although I assure you his classes are of a far greater quality. I have repeatedly tried to get my students who have been with me some time to move up to Ming's classes but so far I can't get any takers.

My Mantis class which consists of my sifu and five regular students hasn't had a new student stick around since I started a year ago. In the year I've been with this group I seen at least a dozen faces come and go. By contrast there is a kwoon on a more affluent side of town which boasts scores of students, but what they teach is a watered down version of martial arts that is more palatable to most suburbanites.

I bear a grudge against these guys as I am jealous of the success they have peddling this pap. But I also recognize that there is an answer somewhere in the middle. By stretching the art to meet the student we can eventually encourage the student to stretch to meet the art. So in my Taiji classes I encourage my students (most of whom are women over forty) to take it easy on themselves to give themselves the time they need to learn. I stress the importance of balance and proper weight shifting. They stay motivated and I maintain a certain level of job security. I know this isn't for everyone but at least I get paid for what I love to do.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Its called relevance, what ever one does must have relevance to ones life. For most people the level of commitment and need is just not there. Just as you are teaching taiji, not knowing your background I would say that your taiji is probably not up to others who just teach or practice only taiji. Yet you chose to teach it.

Why, because it has relevance to what people want and expect.
I have no problems with this others may have. The point I suppose is that for many of us we probably are in the small minority, more so for those whos practices span many yrs.
only a few really want what they ask for.

It¡¯s a niche market at best, in a place where its not even culturally relevant even more so.

I used to know a ming in that area, I wonder if he would be the same one. It was funny and sad. At a local tournament he did a spear form but lost out to some others. The judges did not know what they where looking at. Imagine that a guy who practiced most of his life, was trained in it from childhood in china. Funny but sad :(
this would be some yrs back. :cool:

[Mighty Mungbean]

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Its called relevance, what ever one does must have relevance to ones life. For most people the level of commitment and need is just not there. Just as you are teaching taiji, not knowing your background I would say that your taiji is probably not up to others who just teach or practice only taiji. Yet you chose to teach it.
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Agreed on both points. I teach for purely selfish reasons. It gives me chance to deepen my understanding of what I do. My skills as a teacher just make that possible.


Quote:
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I used to know a ming in that area, I wonder if he would be the same one. It was funny and sad. At a local tournament he did a spear form but lost out to some others. The judges did not know what they where looking at. Imagine that a guy who practiced most of his life, was trained in it from childhood in china. Funny but sad
this would be some yrs back.
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Yep, That's Ming alright. Last name Xia. He said he quit competeing because he kept taking second place to karate guys. In one tournament the normal first place guy wasn't there so the usual third place guy took first and Ming still took second. It just wasn't worth it to him anymore.

What kills me is that here we have this gem of skill and knowledge and no one appreciates it. The rich guy is some guy who moved here from California with an entourage of instructors, makes up his own system and now includes Feng Shui and calls himself a Taoist master. He's even had the audacity to publish his own translation of the Tao Te Jing. The injustice of it all...

If you'd like to send greetings to Ming send me a PM and I'll be sure he gets it come Saturday.

[Hau Tien]

Ahh... some more responses! And some excellent ones at that!

I've been teaching a very small LHBF class at lunch time for coworkers for much the same reasons as you, MungBean. I love the art, and teaching gives me time to practice and develop further. I learn things each class I teach because of the questions my students ask. Also, I'm not charging anything for teaching this class, as I'm kind of using them as guinea pigs to develop a "teaching style".

As for a "living", I don't wish to have some massive commercial school with club jackets, etc. Not really my sort of thing. I meant a self-sustaining simple training hall/gym that teaches IMA primarily and provides enough that I can eat.

It would likely never be my sole source of income, as I am also a web application developer (.NET primarily, but I know a few other languages as well) and love doing that... but for completely different reasons than the martial arts.

My idea so far is to teach the typical "for health" classes, as they seem to be the "bread and butter" of the IMA world right now, but also run additional classes for those interested in the martial applications of the style. I'm looking into the possibility of Tai Chi@Work type classes, as I live in a fairly metropolitan area.

I'll also think more seriously on a curriculum for children.

Thanks for the replies, and I'm certainly interested to see more!

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by Mighty Mungbean

Most people can't handle the real deal. My Taiji instructor is from mainland China and has been training in Wushu since he was ten and in Taijiquan since he was twenty. My classes (at a separate gym) are consistently larger than his, although I assure you his classes are of a far greater quality. I have repeatedly tried to get my students who have been with me some time to move up to Ming's classes but so far I can't get any takers.

When I used to teach a similar style class under the direction of my old Sifu I experienced the exact same thing. I would have a couple of students who did very well at it, and I thought they would benefit more from instruction from my teacher, as he is a far better teacher than I am (although I am striving to get better :) ). Not a single one ever even tried out a free class with him.

I guess different people do it for different reasons.

For instance, in my class right now, they all originally started about 6 months ago as a way to improve health, relaxation, and socialization. Two of them continue to practice it for this. Their form "looks" nice (considering the amount of time they've put in, anyway), but there is very little of the martial in it, and I doubt there ever will be.

The third surprised me pleasantly. He is a bit older than I am, a bit overweight, and used to take Shotokan karate. One day I was bored with just teaching them the form and some rudimentary push hands, so I decided to have them do a simple drill using a movement from the form. The two who do it for the health aspect did the drill and had fun doing it, but didn't put much effort into it. The third, though, INSTANTLY lit up. He practiced the drill over and over and actually got it down pretty good. I've now noticed that part of his form looks better than the other two (who started before him) and it definitely looks more martial.

I've begun adding a drill like this every class, and he's been eating it up. He's even been coming into my office to pick my brain about other movements.

Unfortunately, he's not going to be with the company much longer, as he was hired to cover someone's maternity leave, so unless they hire him in another position (which is a possibility), I'll lose my one student so far that seems to enjoy the side of it I most enjoy :(

[Michaelwalter77]

I did not really get a chance to read the other posts, but in referance to your question.

Unless you commercialize, franchise and so on you will never be able to support a family or retire with a big fat pention teaching the MA. Most people are in it for the love of the game, some have not for profit status and most have day jobs.

I have been teaching MA for almost 10 years, I had a school for 7 of those years my student base averaged 50 or so @ $80 a month. After rent and utilities were paid I really didnt have much to show for.

The school closed, I now offre a summer program for kids at the local YMCA, and teach Yang and Sun at local nursing homes. No overhead and a few hundred dollars a month to do something I love.

[Hau Tien]

My ideal would be to buy an older warehouse (or firehouse or church, etc) and renovate it to have living quarters on a second storey and a small school/training area on the main floor. That way, both my business and residence are together and I'm not paying for both seperately. My old Sifu had this sort of arrangement and it worked well for him.

Prior to that, though, I will follow what my current teacher has done, and rent space in an existing training area. He's also noticed my posts on here about teaching and has offered to chat with me about his own experiences and ideas, and for that I'm quite grateful :)

Thanks again for the posts on this!

[Mo Ling]

"My ideal would be to buy an older warehouse (or firehouse or church, etc) and renovate it to have living quarters on a second storey and a small school/training area on the main floor"

Yeah isn't that everyone's dream?
I would have loved to do that as well. The problem, however, is that today is not 1986. Property is expensive in many places in the USA. In areas where property is not expensive that is because there is no economic incentive for it to be expensive, I.E: there is no money there, therefore no demand for real estate, so prices are low. In that sort of are, you can get space cheaply, but because there is not much economic action, you cannot fill that space with paying students. I mean you could fill it with students paying very very little, perhaps, not enough to make the mortgage and insurance payments and bills.

It is just the way things are these days. This is not particularly special to martial aerts, but to all arts in the conservative swing of this decade. There is less and less "niche living" to be viably found these days.

yes but the firehouse/church school pipe dream is a nice one. I almost actually DID that, then I looked at the price tag.


M


www.taijigongfu.com

[Michaelwalter77]

How right you are. There is a man in my area who purchased a warehouse in an industrial area at a tax deliquent auction for only a couple of grand. Given the location, soccer moms, seniors and people with $$ dont go. He pays more in utilities than he makes off student tuition. He is subleting space to other MA teachers just to pay taxes and is over $5000 in debt.