Aikido

[Judge Pen]

I've started dating a woman who is interested in Aikido and wants to start taking classes. I'll probably take a class a week with her as well. How many of you have any real experience in Aikido? What should I focus on to maxamize my cross-training?

[Starchaser107]

Mat would be the best person to ask..perhaps you could drop him a pm, seeing as how his presence here is a bit random these days.

[Mr Punch]

Firstly, cheers for the heads up Starchaser, but Kenso, Vapour and although I think he comes from a very different aiki tradition to me so I don't always agree with him, Samurai Jack, are probably more up on the current situation than I am.

I don't regularly go to a dojo, I know absolutely zero about aiki in the US, and my aiki is atypical in that it really does focus on the practical... it's more jutsu than do.

Anyway, I'm not really sure about your question JP.

To start with, you're gonna need a big pinch of salt to cope with the extremely slow learning curve, but coming from Shaolin-do I guess you have bags of the stuff!!! :D ;)

As for what to focus on for crosstraining, I think this is the wrong question. As when you learn new form in shaolin-do, I guess, you should try and empty your cup before you start. It will be unlike a lot of things you'll have experienced, and you'll probably need to swallow some nonsense, but if you stick with it it should pay high dividends a few years down the line.

The first thing you should concentrate on is... obvious but true... the basics... ukemi, and tai sabaki/taiso. Tai sabaki basically means body exercises, and involves combinations of stepping and pivoting footwork, concentrating on sinking your posture, keeping your legs flowing but not floppy, keeping your weight underside (this is a term most often used by the Shin Shin Toitsu Ryu - the Ki Society as they're often known in the West, who are the airy-fairiest aikidoka you'll find - but I find the expression a useful analogy in all kinds of aiki) - which basically refers to keeping a relaxed, heavy posture so you are difficult to uproot, and can drop weight through the underside of your arm (and tegatana - handblade), and last but definitely not least, concentrating on your tanden and making all of your movements flow from this.

Quick word of warning: as you'll be concentrating on sinking movements (and maintaining a low level posture), keeping your weight underside (sticking to the floor), and the tanden, you'll often find yourself double-weighted, a concept which most aikidoka don't seem to be able to understand, through lack of sparring/resistance.

In don't have time to go into this any more now, or the connections you'll find with kungfu principles, but I'll be happy to witter on about it again sometime: it was my first love in MA.

It would help if you could give me a more specific question though. For now, all I can conclude is to practice the tai-sabaki and ukemi until the soles of your feet bleed, and your shoulders are black...(actually I'm half joking, my school didn't teach me THAT hardcore, but I did on occasion take it that way, and I did practise every day in the dojo and often again outside of the dojo for many years!)! If you're interested in making it more practical, try these things on different surfaces as soon as you're confident enough... though I don't recommend ukemi on hard surfaces for a while, the tai sabaki on uneven or slippy surfaces are very useful.

Cheers. Later.

[Judge Pen]

I've trained with this teacher before for about 6 months and I loved it. He is not one of the airy-fairy aiki. He also keeps everything very practical--he will go into the spiritual aspects if you want, but doesn't push it in any way. He and I both went through a transition where teaching (for him) and training (for me) became very inconveinant. After that I found my SD teacher (I already had a 1st black in SD at this time--I went back to SD because of the reputation of my teacher--I'm biased, but he is the best in the system, which may not mean much to most people here ;) )

Anyway, I saw parallels in aikido and tai chi and BaGua that I know. Many applications were the same or similar. Also the breakfalls and rolling are taught in SD, but not until the brown sash level. I like the fact that the first thing you learn in Aikido is how to fall and how to roll.

As for specific questions, have you applied the principles of Aikido in free sparring? I sometimes felt that people were too cooperative in the training or would put themselves in an over-committed position to allow me to execute a technique I probably could not have done otherwise. While some degree of this is expeceted for teaching a beginner in Aikido, I was afraid I was learning bad habits that way.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I've trained with this teacher before for about 6 months and I loved it. ... Cool.
Anyway, I saw parallels in aikido and tai chi and BaGua that I know...Yep, there are parallels in a lot of arts... I've found parallels in wrestling, tai chi hsing i, wing chun too and of course jujutsu, kendo and kenjutsu... don't know any bagua, but I've heard that before. Of course, due to the natural limitations of the human body there are parallels in everything, but I mean I could find specific ones... Not saying I'm special either... just read Seven* on judo and taichi for ex.

I'm all for it...!


As for specific questions, have you applied the principles of Aikido in free sparring?... Yes, hundreds of times! Most recently in wrestling sparring, from guard I got sankyo. The most common for me are tenchi nage, irimi nage and nikkyo/ikkyo variants from wing chun chi sao, but I've done all of these in free sparring too. If you know these techs you'll maybe see the pattern/similarities.

You got a web site for your dojo? Just out of interest...

I'll be back again with a few more specific egs and the probs/dynamics you're likely to encounter when I have time.

[norther practitioner]

A friend of mine always jokes that Aikido = 1 part taiji + 1 part judo + .5 parts weirdos...

[Mr Punch]

1 part taichi, 1 part jujutsu, 1 part transvestite weirdos would be closer to the truth, young Padawan.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Mat


You got a web site for your dojo? Just out of interest...



http://www.knoxvilleaikido.com/index.html

[Mr Punch]

Hi, been busy. Site looks reasonable.
Originally posted by Mat
I'll be back again with a few more specific egs and the probs/dynamics you're likely to encounter when I have time. Are you still interested in keeping this going? Cos, we can use this thread to chat about how your training's going and I can help you out with a couple of things to fit in maybe, from what I've experienced/been experiencing.

I don't have a lot of time tho, and it's going to be even less when I've got my website up and running (not MA related, but I'll get some pics, links and articles up), so if you're not interested just say.

Anyway, since I'm here, and I love a good opportunity to burble...

the most common probs with applying aiki against other MAs:

1) The attacks are unrealistic.

er, that's it! Everything else comes from the same problem.

Generally you'll learn from a stance where your uke is holding, or rushing in to grab your right wrist with their right hand (I'm assuming you don't yet have the terminology yet: if you want me to use it to help you get it down let me know, but this can cause trouble as different schools often have different terminologies). This is no problem for beginners learning the circular evasive movements, but if that's all the school does up to shodan it's obviously got problems.

The wrist grab is a great learning tool, it provides the feeling of getting used to people using leverage to manipulate you without getting into a direct strength-on-strength grappling scenario straight away. (And before anybody jumps down my neck for suggesting that grapplers use strength-on-strength, I'm not, I'm suggesting that beginners use strength-on-strength at close range.)

The problem is that people spend a long time on the wrist grab techs and not enough on punching.

IMO every class should have free practice at the end, where you can play with what you've learned, which of course means turning the wrist grabs into punches, changing starting stances etc.

Then the straight punch practice comes. The punches are also unrealistic. Again this is OK to start with, but there should be plenty of practice (in the free practice if your sensei doesn't show you) against reverse punch (gyaku tsuki), not just slide-stepping punch (tsugi-ashi tsuki), one-twos, changing stances (making sure that they're not just coming in with planted feet and from a distance of three and a half miles), feint steps, at full-speed and getting the **** punches on target.

You may wonder why I'm lecturing you on the problems of aiki practice (BTW, there are exceptions but you'd be surprised at how many dojo practice the opposite of these fairly basic realistic techs). Well, I'm still not sure of your problem. You first asked about crosstraining focus, but you will of course learn all the basic stances in your aiki class, and you'll be able to play around and work out what fits with what you've already learned: that's the fun part! Then you asked whether I'd been able to use it in sparring, which suggests you have doubts as to aiki's efficiency which is natural, but what can I do?! I can give, as some joe on the Net, a bunch of egs of when I've used aiki in real sits, and full contact sparring, but that's gonna take me a long time and is gonna need some background about where aiki training in general and mine specifically is coming from, if it's to come anywhere near convincing you!

So there's a couple of things to watch out for... if your dojo doesn't do free practice I would give it a miss... but that's coming from 14 years of aiki related and other MA experience, so you may still be able to get something from a dojo that doesn't do so much free practise. But in that case, I recommend throwing it into your kf sparring sessions, but be careful: at full speed it will break things on people who don't know what's coming.

Also, a rather strange word of warning. You said you and your sensei had gone through a learning experience. Well, in my experience it's part of the nature of the aiki sensei beast that they are all open to new ideas (harmonizing with the new guy experienced in some other MA), and promise that they'll address your issues, and then it'll be, oh sorry, seems like we didn't get any time for free practise this week, again and again, and you'll realise after 6 mths that they've been so busy showing you the magic of aiki, and none of the practicality, that you'll have inadvertantly harmonized with ways to get killed on the street/owned in free sparring. Not saying they're all like this, or that it's a deliberate act of deception, but aiki teachers are often the proverbial 'old dog' and masters of self-deception about their openness.

Let us know how your training goes, and specifically what probs yoyu encounter, and I'll pop in from time to time.

Cheers.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, in free practice you often have to educate your uke to come in strongly, on target, and not lead-footedly... or change ukes.

[Judge Pen]

I am interested in keeping this going. From my recollection we did randori 2 or 3 times a month only, but there were times when I could go to a Saturday morning class and be the only student and we would play around freely with just me and the sensei.

With the holidays and all I havent' gotten my gf to class yet. Which is fine as I'm still healing up myself and I want to get involved in class once a week as well.

You offer some great insights on how to keep the practice more realistic. Since my previous class experience was as a novice from an aiki experience, I can't say how the training would evolve int he upper ranks. When I go back to the class I'll make sure I get my uke to be more realistic with their attacks so I can learn to deal with the balance and resistance that a real person would offer in an encounter. I do remember that we worked on several techiques other than wrist grabs. The sesei was big on defending multiple punch senarios and emphasized atemi with each technique.

I'm sure that I'll have more specific questions for you after the new year. Until then, cheers and Merry Christmas!

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I am interested in keeping this going... Until then, cheers and Merry Christmas! Cool, I'll pop in. Merry Xmas!

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, it's important to train atemi along side your Aikido. O-sensei claimed that in a real fight Aikido was 80% atemi. At my dojo I like to look for openings for atemi waza within every technique we practice, and honestly I can say that just about everything you're doing in Aikido can become a strike, esp. when uke breaks contact in the middle of a movement.

I also condition my hands everyday to make sure that they'll be up to the task. I'm the only student in my dojo who does, but as far as I know, I'm also the only student who is regularly involved in physical altercations, so go figure.

IMO Aikido provides excellent training for individuals who seek to restrain and control an assailant, rather than duke it out. For that purpose, I think it's one of the best. On the other hand, if things get ugly and you need to step up the lethality of your response to self-defense (i.e. multiple attackers, weapons involved, etc.), you're going to either need to cross-train, or you're going to need to find a dojo that emphasizes street-practicality.

Most Aikido schools don't spend enough time working with weapons and multiple attackers until you've been training for years and years. Funny thing is, Aikido is famous for multiple attacker scenarios...

[Mr Punch]

Actually I heard 90% aiki for one quote from O Sensei, but I can't remember offhand...

Anyway, I read the other day the aikikai hombu used to have makiwara outside so the aikidoka could get their striking down. Try reminding them of that nowadays!!!

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, Mureshige Sensei said the same thing about the makiwara. It seems like they've defanged Aikido somewhat by trying to embrace the whole "peace and love" thing to the exclusion of martial efficacy. Still, I'm confident that the art will retain a strong martial element under the leadership of hardcore martial artists such as Koga Sensei and Chiba Shihan. I've heard that Segal Sensei and a few others have really dedicated themselves to establishing a large contingent of Budo oriented students too, so all hope is not lost. I personally hope to open my own dojo in fifteen years or so, and plan on having makiwara, frequent randori, loads of weapons practice, and lots of tanto classes available for those who want it.

[Judge Pen]

Coming from a background that is 90% striking anyway, I'm glad to hear that. I often wondered if the techniques I was practicing would actually work without an atemi first (even though they work in class with a willing uke).

I'm hoping to get my gf to check out his class next Thursday night. Since she already speaks Japanese, she can help me pick up the terminolgy!

[Mr Punch]

Hey, it has just occurred to me... if 90% of aiki is atemi, and 50% is ukemi, that means either:

1) There are no locks or throws!

or

2) It's a more than complete art, scientifically proven...!

:rolleyes: :D

[phantom]

Samurai Jack, it seems that Chiba Sensei's aikido is more practical than many other aikikai branches are. What do you feel makes it more practical? Thanks in advance.

[Judge Pen]

Unfortunatley it wasn't conducted by the lead instructor, but one of his black belts. (It was the Sensei's wife's birthday or something). It was pretty much as I remember, but this guy didn't emphasise atemi during his irimi nage and I didn't like the pin he was teaching for a tanto defense. (But at least they pulled out a tanto). I know the instruction from Sensi is better.

My question: At the end they practiced a sitting technique (both wrists were grabbed by the uke) that ended in a "Ki pin." Honestly it looked a little hokey to me. Mat and SJ, what's your experience with these types of techniques? Are they effective in your experiences and if so, what's the principles behind them, or should I take this type of terminolgy with a grain of salt? My take is that you can pin someone by sinking your weight and minimize muscle effort, but it's a byproduct of proper body mechanics and positioning rather that internal force.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
My take is that you can pin someone by sinking your weight and minimize mucsle effort, but it's a byproduct of proper body mechanics and positioning rather that internal force.

[Mr Punch]

Was it the one where both of you sit in seiza and uke grabs your wrists and you raise your hands towards his shoulders like a tenchinage and 'push' him over to the side onto his back, pivoting round on your knee to cover him and then breathe garlic (I prefer natto) into his face to keep him down?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Mat
Was it the one where both of you sit in seiza and uke grabs your wrists and you raise your hands towards his shoulders like a tenchinage and 'push' him over to the side onto his back, pivoting round on your knee to cover him and then breathe garlic (I prefer natto) into his face to keep him down?

Something like that. I wasn't close enough to smell their breath. They would then push forearm to forearm.

[Mr Punch]

From his back?

[Judge Pen]

Uke was on his back, yes. They kept the position of the pin and then would push uke's left forearm to nage's right forearm or vice-versa.

[Mr Punch]

So not this one? (http://www.aikiclub.ru/5kyu%20foto/zagi_kokyuho.html) I'm not sure which one you mean then. Is it suwari-waza? From hanmi-handachi?

A lot of classes finish with that one... I got a nice practical take on it from my aikijutsu/hsing i teacher. I'm about to go to bed tho so it'll have to be another time.

[Judge Pen]

No, that's the one except after the pin they just pushed fore-arm to forearm for some reason.

I'm interested to hear the practical take from your Hsing-I/aikijujitsu instructor when you have the chance.

[Samurai Jack]

Phantom:

I haven't practiced other styles of Aikido, but I've observed quite a few classes and worked with visitors in seminars. Forced to venture a guess, I'd say we tend to be more interested in Budo, the warrior's way, as oppossed to O-Sensei's later spiritual philosophy.

Many dojo emphasize the spiritul aspects of Aikido, but in my dojo, I've only heard Ki mentioned twice in two years. Instead we work very hard, we aren't hesitant to get rough, we stay soft and centered (paradoxically), and we keep our mouths shut. Sensei's in Chiba Shihan's lineage tend to be stern, just as he is. Our Aikido is the basic Aikido you may see at Hombu, without a lot of re-interpretation or fluff. If you want to see what it looks like as oppossed to other styles of Aikido, check out 3rd Doshu's two new books:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4770027621/qid=1105132017/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-6194774-6176811?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/477002763X/qid=1105132017/sr=8-4/ref=pd_csp_4/002-6194774-6176811?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Samurai Jack]

Judge and Mat:

It sounds like you guys are talking about Kokyu Dosa, or "Breath Exercise". It's function is much the same as Tai Chi's Push Hands, or Wing chun's Chi Sao. Basicallly it teaches you to move from center, relax under resistance, use your hips, link your shoulders and hips, and coordinate the breath with the movements. It's one of Aikido's most basic exercises, and has literally hundreds of variations. It is not supposed to be Waza (technique), but rather Dosa (exercise). Most dojos use it as a warmup or a cool-down, so that it gets practiced during every class. O-Sensei called it "The master exercise", because he believed it was the most efficient way to teach students to move correctly for Aikido.

[Judge Pen]

They end the class with a breathing set which remends me of basic qi gong.

[Samurai Jack]

Kokyu Dosa shouldn't be confused with misogi, which is more like Chi-Kung. Kokyu Dosa is what you were describing earlier. It helps you build connection with breath and movement.

Misogi is primarily supposed to be a cleansing and Ki building exercise. There are alot of different Misogi exercises, which is interesting, since it really seems to parallel chinese martial arts including Chi-Kung in thier systems.

Most Japanese arts I've studied ignore this component.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah that's right Jack, kokyu dosa. Nice description btw :) I always prefer to think in terms of principles than techniques in my aiki. I think technique-based aiki has lead to a lot of the old outdated battlefield techs being misemphasized as modern self-defence-applicable techs when they just don't work the way they are taught.

Anyway, for a slightly different angle on kokyu dosa check this out. I don't know if you already think of it this way, but you missed it out of your explanation... and it was the first time I'd heard of it this way...

My aikijutsu teacher has it that the difference between the aikido schools and the aikijutsu schools is that jutsu teaches it for all of those things but the other important distinction is that kokyu dosa is a way of feeling and practising the connection between your centre and your opponent's (partner's - whatever! :D ) centre, and that this can be applied just as well to striking.

So my teacher emphasises it as an exercise for striking principles too, in fact, he doesn't distinguish between the two. He says it gives you the relaxed energy to find your opponent's centre quickly and to be able to explode your energy relaxedly outwards (eventually from any contact point on the body).

In theory this differs in that if you are relaxed in that way it gives the opponent nothing to hold onto. So he grabs and it's like he's grabbed nothing, so he has no leverage, and because he thought he was grabbing something you already have the kuzushi: he is already tricked into overcommitting. Of course this is not overcommitting like most aikidoists use the word; like a big Scooby-Doo-zombie lunge, or a punch from two metres away where you move out of the way in advance and they stand there at the end of the punch, all static and on one leg holding their arm out, but a subtle shift in his bodyweight for a split-second allowing you to take advantage (er sorry, blend with his disadvantage! :D ). As I'm sure you know this is similar to tai chi in many ways.

This theory of course translates directly into the way you practise, not only kokyu dosa but also in general. If you don't have that relaxed energy, at any point in the movement your opponent can send you energy back to you, in other words he can jerk, push, punch, uproot through your arm and directly into or through your centre. Again this has parallels to tai chi and wing chun in terms of uprooting, kendo and wing chun in terms of speed of attack, and the timing of redirection of attack, and many other arts I guess. In my MA exp so far, this sensei has the closest to any 'unstoppable energy' in striking or grappling I've come across, although my shooto teacher's shoot is close. Very fast, fluid, and explosive and you don't feel anything until your centre is out.

The other subtle distinction in practise methods is that we use the kokyu dosa practise on kick pads and focus pads too, and heavy bags when we have them. So from a neutral stance, suwari or (pref) standing we are getting used to hitting straight out and into the centre of the target. Although the direction of the punch, as the dosa, is slightly upwards, there is no 'slippage'. That is the punch goes into the target and in no way does your energy slide off to the side. This gets the crumple effect on the bag that a good boxing punch gets or a good wing chun punch gets, where the bag crumples around your fist without moving so much on the chain.

Try it! It's very very fast and very very relaxed. I also found it helped my relaxation in kokyu dosa itself and in many aspects of grappling (both mid-range in aiki and close range in jujutsu).

Should note that my teacher is from a daito-ryu and a hsing i background so he may have mixed and matched his ideas. Sometimes he talks about intention leading the movement like 'yi' in Chinese. But, there is an article I'll try an find from a trad aikisutsuka which says the same thing.

I should also note that I tried that specific strike with boxing gloves (14 oz) on live resisting opponents (!) without much success. The dynamics of fighting with 14 oz gloves are just too different. The principle itself crossed over nicely and helped me to relax in my boxing class too. And as I said, although I like principle-based practise rather than tech-based this particular strike does lend itself well to this principle, so I'll let you know my results next time I get serious and practise it on live resisting opponents with my MMA gloves! Of course the gloves shouldn't make much of a difference, ie I'll still have to 'pull' the punch or rather, turn it into more of a push-punch... except that in a pressure testing full-contact situation where basically anything goes I should be able to try it out a little more 'realistically' without liability.

Anyway, regardless of the strike techs themselves, if you change your mindset to actually practising that way, concentrating more on their centre than yours, I think you'll like the results.

BTW, my teacher usually gets us practising just the arm-raise move, not the full unbalance, follow-up and pin. He says that's the most important for realizing the centre-centre connection. We do do the finish too, but not every session. He also gets us practising the same move standing in a neutral position, and in fact is quite capable of raining on our parade using basically just that move/principle!

Sorry it's so long. Could probably show you in five minutes or less!

[Mr Punch]

BTW Jack, your dojo description sounds just like the one I learnt in back home. :)

If you add a couple of LEO teachers and teachers who also teach LEOs.

If ever I'm in the area we should hook up, I should visit the dojo or something. I've heard a lot about Chiba (not all of it good, but it depends on what fruities you're listening to! :D )... although if ever I do actually make that trip to the States, it's all gonna hafta be training in different places...! Oh well! :D

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
I condition my Tsuki and drilling punches on the concrete outside, or against a cinderblock wall. One Thousand strikes a day, with lot's of Dit Da Jow. I'm the only Aikidoka I've ever heard of who does this, but the old Hombu dojo used to have makiwara for fist training in the garden.I drill strikes every day. I don't do a thousand strikes (used to do exactly that many, and a thousand bokuto cuts too), but I make sure I hit something hard every day. . .

Wait till I get my wallbag and heavy bag! :D

I only started doing conditioning when I did karate tho, and continued when I started wing chun, so I can't really say it's part of my aiki.

The sword cuts were. I would do

basic shomen (stationary)
yokomen (both sides - stationary)
shomen (stepping forwards, backwards, and at angles)
yokomen (ditto)
the aiki suburi (we do 6)
the aiki techs ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, iriminage soto (thrust with bokuto), iriminage tenkan (finishing with kesagiri), shihonage (of course - beautiful with a sword! - in fact, I'd say that contains as fundamental principles as kokyu dosa)
the aiki sword kata (don't know how common this is, we're the only school I've met that does it: 24 moves, allegedly from one of the Yagyu schools)...

Those were the days, when I was a student, unemployed, self-employed! :(

[Samurai Jack]

Gosh, Mat you're a postin' maniac! There's no way I can do your lengthy posts justice with my time constraints, but I'm honored that you'd pay my dojo a visit if you were in the area, and here you were saying we disagree...

Anyway, I know about Kokyu Dosa being one of Aikido's methods for training Atemi due to the whole contact/connection with uke and nage's centers. I just haven't explored it to the extent that you apparently have, but of course I'd love to train with you so you could show me what you're doing. Perhaps one day.

As far as the hammer fist thing which you mentioned being surprised about on another thread: like you said, it's principles training. Sure Aikido dosen't really have a hammer fist per se, but it does have lots of "notoriously unrealistic" chopping type hand strikes, though as you know they're really cuts, and they have thier uses. I preffer to throw in a hammer fist occassionaly instead of only cutting. It's not really part of Aikido, but it's very effective and for some reason, the hammer fist seems to compell a resistant uke to see it my way pretty quickly. They tend to land with a tooth loosening thud, rather than a slicing, "filing", or cutting motion like with the sword hand. Sort of the difference between a club and a bamboo reed.

Sometimes only a club will do. :D

By the way. Someday I'm going to open my own dojo, and we're going to do Aikido the way it was before people thought "Harmony" meant peace, rather than using your opponent's own force to crack his head open. I wonder what the hippies will say?

Cheers!

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, it was a bit long eh...! :D

I said I'd give it a bit of detail, that's why I didn't wanna go off half-cocked and write before.

Anyway, I did say we didn't agree all the time, I didn't mean abjectly. :) Maybe I was wrong: there seem to be more parallels than I previously thought.

I too want to open a dojo. I'll drop you a PM with my intended curriculum if you're interested... and I'd be interested in yours... if they're really close we can even form a bogus organization!!! :D :o Always wanted to be a soke!

[Judge Pen]

You two are a great resource to bounce ideas and questions off of. My GF is taking her first class tonight. I'm not going to be able to take one for a while due to my knee, but I'm looking forward to hearing her perspectives. She almost went pro in golf and her uncle was a karate champion in Japan and her dad was a judo practioner and wrestled at BYU, so she's an athlete and has been around the MA enough to where I'm sure she will pick things up quickly. Oh, she also taught ball room dancing for a spell so she's used to feeling and reacting to one's center. Should be fun. I'm trying to get her to post here too.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I've started dating a woman who is interested in Aikido and wants to start taking classes. I'll probably take a class a week with her as well. How many of you have any real experience in Aikido? What should I focus on to maxamize my cross-training?

You should focus on the woman, stupid!:rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

I have no problem taking care of my girl.

[phantom]

Thanks again, Samurai Jack. You said that instructors in your lineage aren't hesistant to get rough. I realize the need to go spar at a high intensity every now and then, but if you do it on a regular basis, you are risking serious injury, perhaps permanently. What kind of injuries have you and your training partners exerienced as a result of the training? Have you found it difficult to hold down or find a job as a result? Thanks in advance.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by phantom
Thanks again, Samurai Jack. You said that instructors in your lineage aren't hesistant to get rough. I realize the need to go spar at a high intensity every now and then, but if you do it on a regular basis, you are risking serious injury, perhaps permanently. What kind of injuries have you and your training partners exerienced as a result of the training? Have you found it difficult to hold down or find a job as a result? Thanks in advance.

Of course. I forgot to mention that as a result of my Aikido training I'm a wheelchair bound invalid on welfare. Most of us at the dojo just crawl around on the mat and hit eachother over the heads with our prosthetic limbs. We're one tough crew.

[phantom]

Well, I guess that means that you feel that that was a stupid question. I am sorry if it annoyed you, but I do think that it was reasonable, as there have been serious injuries and even a few deaths in aikido. I am still interested in learning it, though.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by phantom
I am sorry if it annoyed you, but I do think that it was reasonable, as there have been serious injuries and even a few deaths in aikido.

Sorry, I thought you were being facetious. So where have you heard about these deaths? In all honesty, one of our students broke both of her arms last year during practice. That's the most serious injury to have occured at our dojo, but frankly, that particular injury could have happened practicing any martial art that involves tumbling. Instead of performing a breakfall, she tried to catch herself on her palms, and broke both arms at the wrist. She wasn't even being thrown.

[phantom]

Thanks, Samurai Jack. That sounds like an injury rate that I can live with. Here is an article about the deaths: http://aikinews.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=497.

[Samurai Jack]

Interesting. Summer Camps and Seminars can be quite difficult.

[Judge Pen]

I doubt that the injury/death rate is substantially higher in aikido than any other martial art where break-falling is a major part of practice.

Anyway, my GF was trying to show me how the "ki pin" worked. I'm still not healthy enough to try the class with her, but she's loving it and going 3 nights a week.

[Judge Pen]

she keeps getting frusterated that it's not coming easier and that there's no set pattern to learning various technique. Just whatever the teacher feels like working on. Any advice to make picking up these techniques easier for her?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Judge Pen and others,

Great thread, with a lot of good advice and info!!

I was a one or two night a month aikidoka for many years. I didn’t have the time to attend regularly. I supplemented my training with reading as many books on Aikido I could find, some are better than others of course, and I purchased a video or two of training camps. I especially like the “New York Aikikai: 30th Anniversary Summer Camp” video. It has about 10 major Aikido Masters performing in it. Traditionally, learning in Aikido is done by watching the sensei perform the technique and then attempting to copy him/her, so watching a master perform a technique on a video is actually not much different than class with the exception that there is no one to answer your questions or correct your errors, LOL!!!! I found it very beneficial, but then I had already had 20 years of MA training too, so I kind of knew what I was looking for.

Once I understood the core principles of Aikido it was fairly easy to learn. Your gf is just beginning so encourage her to be patient and practice a bit with you or on her own. The core principles are really just understanding body mechanics. To understand Aiki one must understand the mechanics of the body, applied joint leverage, as well as the principles of motion, and maintaining balance in motion. The body will learn to FEEL the correct movements with practice, but it takes time and the desire to understand and acquire the ability. It took me maybe 2 years, but then I attended classes very sporadically. 3 days a week with some understanding of dance and golf may shorten her learning curve.

The principles of dance will help her with fluid motion and balance in movement while the golfing experience should help her when learning to allow the technique rather than physical strength to accomplish the techniques.

Tai Sabaki (Body Movements), basically step or floor patterns can be practiced almost anywhere, and this training will assist her in learning to move quickly awhile remaining centered. There is a lot of pivoting and turning in Aikido and learning to pivot and turn the body while maintaining balance and control of the opponent is crucial; as a hint, it is all in the hips, LOL!!!

I would say the most valuable things I learned from Aikido were joint manipulation and efficient body movement. I was never satisfied with the evasive body movements I learned in the Kung Fu style I trained in. The body movements of Aikido coupled with parries are among the most important MA techniques I have ever learned because with them I learned to evade and redirect an attack without actually having to engage with punches, kicks, or even joint manipulations

My experience with Aikido was also very frustrating. I found the classes moved much slower than I liked. During class we rarely spent enough time on one specific technique long enough to internalize much of the movement and since each technique is performed right/left, irimi/tenkan we might only be able to practice each variation 2-4 times. This makes learning and understanding the basic principles even more crucial. Once you gf internalizes the principles she will find her classes much more enjoyable and her learning curve will shorten. So, as with all learning: “Patience is a Virtue!!”

I found the practical application of many of the techniques of Aikido required a great deal of modification for REAL WORLD effectiveness. Since I had years or previous MA experience this was not a problem for me. However, that is something to keep in mind while training. I value my Aikido years and if I had the time I would consider attending classes once again, but I don’t consider it an over all self-defense oriented art, with the exception of the rare school that teaches the practical application.

As an aside, kokyu dosa is very much like sticky hands. One of its purposes is to allow one to learn to FEEL and manipulate the subtle balance of an opponent. One of the reasons it is practiced on the knees is to eliminate the complication of manipulating a standing person. Kneeling takes the hips out of the movement and greatly simplifies the technique. Kokyu dosa can be practiced standing, but it is much more difficult for the beginner to perform well and this is considered advanced practice in many schools.

I hope this helps!!! Good Luck and have Fun!!!

[shaolinboxer]

Perhaps she would like to keep a training journal. My own journal has been a great source of clarity.

Also, if the school has the usual kyu/dan ranking system there should be a list of techniques for the first test she can get. She can then ask advanced students about them and look for them when they come up in her sensei's class.

This is a good way to learn more about the culture and curriculum of school without getting overwhelmed.

[Samurai Jack]

The classes are taught that way for a reason actually. The idea is to learn and internalize the basic body mechanics of the system without worrying about trying to "find" the right technique from a "bag of tricks", so to speak. It's frustrating, but your GF will start to learn the techniques only after she's comfortable moving "the Aikido way." It's a long, but very rewarding process.

[Mr Punch]

Good advice as usual.

I would add though, that for some instructors, the fact that they ahve no notion of curricular development is an excuse for not having a clue about teaching.

For example, there's a difference between a teacher who just picks something out of a hat each week, and one who chooses a technique that's addressing a movement principle that everybody in the class are having trouble with. Yet both could go by the excuse of 'developing general aiki movement'.

In wing chun we develop basic wing chun movement... but there is a pattern to doing this: the forms. Each form progresses to the next, and from each form we will work vital points about body movement in live drills.

In aiki it can be very random as to who picks up what when. In some ways this allows for freedom of development, but at least while you are learning the basics I think there should be more guidance than many 'traditional' teachers give.

The problem with these 'traditional' teachers is that traditionally aikido comes from a tried and tested battlefield art, and nowadays there is very little testing. So the 'do as I do' repetition often leads to repeating the teacher's lack of experience against resistance.

Even if it's a 'bad school' like that, there are some things your gf could do to get the most out of it JP.

[Mr Punch]

They are:

Make your own forms.

Every week after class (or the next day or whatever, as long as it's fresh) your gf should try this process:

1) Break the tech down.
2) Put it together again!

1) There are of course many ways to break down these techs.

Let's look at shihonage.

First she can do it slowly, one step at a time, making sure she has her balance, and that she can feel the transfer of weight form one leg to the other, and the transfer of power up from her feet through her hips. Slowly.

She can try with her arms loose and relaxed, in a natural position by her side.

She can try it just with a guard (and replacing lead hand lead foot, and vice versa) - so just concentrating on the legs, hips etc and relaxing her shoulders.

She can try it irimi or tenkan.

Stepping straight through, or out and back in.

She can try it with a sidewards cut or a vertical one.

She can even try it wrong (eg moving the cut behind her head, so she can feel the weakness of the position even without anyone on the end, then doing it correctly with the hands in front of the head).

She can do it rolling down the invisible opponent's back, cutting down to her own foot, or straight out (the chickenwing).

She can do it with a sword (bokuto or whatever).

Then (2):

She has to put it together again.

Again, she can do it fast and flowing, concentrating on speed.

With loose arms: see how fast she can get them whipping!

With the concentration on the unbendable arm party trick, good for getting the connection to the hips.

She can do it concentrating solely on the pivots, tenka ashi and tai sabaki.

Sinking her hips, and the different feeling with allowing them to come up and go down naturally.

With a stop at the end of each 'section' or all together in a big flowing spiral.

Cutting down the moves to their barest most aggressive minimum.




Then she will remember them better, and she should be able to easily work out some questions for the teacher at the beginning of the next week's class, thus inspiring some continuity herself.

BTW, some people learn the ikkyo-rokkyo as a progression based on the next being the henka waza if the first one goes wrong. I found this helpful, and was also taught them as a kata sequence, into which I put the tenkan and irimi variations and added strikes.

I can even pull some of it off on a resisting opponent on a good day! ;)

[Judge Pen]

Excellent advice. She's having a series of root canals right now and avoiding the mat in the meantime. My knee is coming along and when I can fall safely I'll start attending the class with her.

Right now I'm her practice dummy to some degree and I try to give her a little more resistance than she may get in class. She's a quicker study than she thinks she is and she can bring a tear to my eye every now and then with her technique.

I ran into her teacher on the street and he seems happy with her progression so far. . . . she's the only beginner in her class and that's part of the problem, I think.

[phantom]

Do you guys think that aikido's breakfalls are good to avoid injury if you fall on concrete? Some people feel that judo's breakfalls will cause you to break your arm if you do them on concrete. What about aikido's? Thanks in advance.

[Mr Punch]

Surfaces and situations make a huge difference. Of curse no breakfall is failsafe.

But here are a few egs of some that went OK:

1) flew 10 m or more onto a slope in a wood from a rope swing. Surface was approx 1 in 2 and included brambles, sticks, tree roots and broken glass. Wouldn't recommend the broken glass breakfall normally :D, but escaped unscathed except a slight but unfortnately recurring knee injury.

2) Used to practice hard and soft sparring regularly on hardwood. Hurts but not as much as concrete/tarmac.

3) Practiced on tarmac and concrete (only breakfalls, not from throws). Bloody hurts, but useful.

4) Slipped on my ass unannounced and back over in a perfect ushiro ukemi onto my feet again on concrete with a light covering of black ice. Didn't hurt at all. Got cheered! :D

5) Breakfall from full double leg tackle on concrete by someone about 30 kgs heavier than me. Chose wrong breakfall, in that case you need a flat breakfall, but I was trying to use the momentum to hurl him over my head in my backwards roll. This can be done (done it on the mat a few times since) but I don't advise it unless you practice sutemi waza regularly. I got stuck under him and sustained serious, lasting and recurring lower spinal injury. :)

6) Dive off a two metre fence onto hard summer-grassed ground to avoid a riot van. Hurts as much as concrete.

Even a light covering (clothes or carpet) makes a hell of a difference. the most painful surfaces are baked earth and concrete. Any hard bumpy objects on that surface will increase the pain factor considerably (tree roots, sticks, rocks etc). If you wanna get good at it, you have to practice on that surface (I don't anymore).

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Right now I'm her practice dummy to some degree and I try to give her a little more resistance than she may get in class. She's a quicker study than she thinks she is and she can bring a tear to my eye every now and then with her technique. This is good but beware of the following problem. like many arts 'an aiki tech' in isolation will not work against a resisting opponent. So if you resist, espically if you know what's coming, you should be able to stop her tech. Now to a certain degree she should be able to work her and your positioning and structure to overcome, or rather work around this resistance and apply the tech.

However, if the resistance becomes static it has ceased to be realistic, and if the resitance is dynamic she really needs to know some henka waza (changing techs), which becomes a different level of practice. So to start with don't put too much resistance into it and try to make the resistance moving out of the hold/lock/throw rather than becoming rooted and stopping all motion, that way she may get a chance to follow and stick with your movement until another tech comes out of it.

[shaolinboxer]

I try to use a "resist to assist" policy. There are many reasons why people resist techniques, and any technique can be blocked if uke knows whats up and has some experience.

Resistance has many gradations, from gentle taughtness to utter recalcitrance to flat out acts of barbarism. I am a different uke for each of my partners in training. So if one of my seniors in in the mood to tussle, I'll really try to put one over on them. With those I instruct I use resistance to make a point or stimulate an adjustment. With our cheif sensei I play it really soft and clean, trying to absorb the nuance of his technique's maturity. If I am practicing with someone from another dojo, I also try to follow them as best I can to give them a feeling that they are welcome and respected.

The more you resist the more you have to trust your partner I think to avoid unpleasant escalations.

Mat, are you with me on this or do you take another approach?

[Mr Punch]

Esp this:
Shaolinboxer
I am a different uke for each of my partners in training.

[Scott R. Brown]

It is preferable to perform a roll rather than a breadkfall whenever possible.

Here's my war story:

I was riding my bicycle down an excessively steep dirt decline, and I mean this " / " steep. I hit a depression and went head first over the handlebars. The decline ended in a rocky creek bed. Because of my years performing rolls, my body responded automatically. Lucky for me too!!! An untrained person would have either broken their neck or their wrist, arm and shoulder. All I sustained was a very mild skin abrasion on my shoulder and a few minutes telling myself, "Boy!!! That was a stupid thing to do!!!" LOL!!!! I did this in front of my 8 year old son. Boy was he impressed!!! I was about 40 at the time.

It is true that sometimes a breakfall is all you can do, it is better than nothing, but nothing beats a smooth roll to avoid injury.

[Mr Punch]

How goes it JP?