Chi Kwan, How do you do it?

[Roy D. Anthony]

I'm curious to know what techniques the various families use during their chi kwan exercise. Can you please post? Thank you!

[chi-kwai]

See my posting in the Sensitivity: got it? (http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291) thread.

--
chi kwai

[whippinghand]

so based on your response, does that mean you don't have chi kwan, jsut because he mistook your name?

[OdderMensch]

what's "chi kwan"

I just learned that "kum na" is the same as "chin na" so maybe it one of those words that has a differnt cantonese/maderian (sp) meaning

what is it, i'll look it up later but if you'd just tell me :)

well gotta run "party" tonight

[Watchman]

Chi Kwan means "sticky pole", which is a training device for long weapon fighting the same way Chi Sau is a training device for empty hand fighting.

Beyond Chi Kwan you will find Chi Do ("sticky knife") exercises which train knife fighting.

Roy,

I'm not sure what you are asking. Do you mean what specific drill sequences others use in Chi Kwan, or singular techniques?

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparations against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[OdderMensch]

i don't yet, still so much more to learn.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Yes Watchman, exactly what I'm asking, Thank you.

[Roy D. Anthony]

One of our exercises uses Dan, Tiu and Biu Kwan. How do yours differ?

[dzu]

I practice chi gwun with any of the points in the set not just dan, tiu, or biu. I start with the application of the points from a distance with a partner and then incorporate them from contact to develop and refine the sensitvity.

Dzu

[Watchman]

I practice that very exercise extensively. We practice a series of drills that pretty much incorporate all 6 1/2 points in an attacking and covering flow.

Also, we begin to utilize the pole footwork once the individual movements are understood. Using the back leg turning found in the form helps us to change angles on the opponent when he thrusts that open him up for counterattack off his own line (making it more difficult for him to counter the movement).

I also practice freeing up the drills (sort of like "fighting hands" for the pole) using Harbinger gloves to help protect the hands.

Fighting with shorter stick lengths (broomstick length or Karate Bo length) helps translate the principles from the Kwan into a shorter, tighter space. When I first did this I was amazed at how fast and powerful the fighting principles of the Look Dim Boon Kwan made you in that kind of environment.

Do you have any thoughts on further training of the long weapon principles?

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparations against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[Roy D. Anthony]

Great stuff. I'm not sure what you mean by foot turning, we use back foot stepping. Oddly enough this coincides with Classical (as opposed to modern) fencing footwork and so does our Chi Kwan. The Bart Cham Dao has exactly the same footwork. However, that also depends on what lineage you are from also. SO I am only commenting on the Ip Man lineage.

[Jeff Brown]

Can Wing Chun incorporate the use of 2-foot long poles as weapons or is this sacrelige?

[Roy D. Anthony]

Noticed that you're from Toronto, excellent! from what school? You don't need to answer if you do not want to.
A lot of people feel that deviating from the norm is sacrilege. However there are a couple of ways that I have heard that address this very issue.
In the Wing Chun System there are only the 2 weapons, to make allowances for every range. The Shortest Weapon and Longest Weapon Ranges.
Therefore, any weapon you chose will fall under or between these 2 categories.

On the other hand, an Interesting Story that Shifu Pan Qing Fu told me sheds another opinion.
He was once hired to teach the Chinese Troops on Rifle & Bayonet. As Shifu had pretentions as he never learned rifle and bayonet, The previous instructor told him, don't worry it's just like teaching the Spear.
Once he began the class, he realized that it wasn't like that at all. due to the shaping and the weight of the rifle and the bayonet, he had to follow the structure of the weapon and on top of which the weight, determined it's use.

So he learned a very important lesson, the properties of weapon determines it's use.
My opinion, is that using 2 sticks may follow the basics of the Bart Chum Dao, however some elements may be structurally limited, like hooking.

[Jeff Brown]

Yes there does seem to be a division, between Wing Chun purists and those called mixers. Why can't one be a purist in class and a mixer on the street? I have noticed someone's concern about "getting the snot beat outa me" should Wing Chun fail him (or vice versa) -- well I am not very good at Wing Chun but no one has ever beaten me like that when I used Wing Chun (because I have never tried to use it in a real fight!)
On the street, I'd be more inclined to use Wing Chun to the best of my abilities and anything else I could throw at my opponent as survival instincts direct my loyalties.
Anyway, I was only curious about weapons because I don't know much about them. Quite like watching those who can spin the Karate-bo or whatever those sticks are called.

[Watchman]

>>>I'm not sure what you mean by foot turning, we use back foot stepping.<<<

Sorry, I mean using the back foot stepping to turn the body, effecting a change in the attacking angle.

Your comment about "classical" fencing footwork is interesting because in my personal reading on Elizabethan era English fenching I have found an incredible commonality in footwork principles, angle changing, and issuance of power with the Kwan & Bot Cham Do.

An interesting experiment is playing with the "blending range", or "mid range", class of weapons (about common European or Japanese sword lengths, or the longer Escrima sticks). Depending on the range of the opponent and what you are trying to do with the weapon you can find yourself flowing back and forth through body postures found in both the Kwan & Bot Cham Do.

On a side note: I thing the Bot Cham Do's body movement and footwork principles have got to be the most exciting and powerful thing I have ever learned in Wing Chun.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparations against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[dzu]

From my understanding, the 4 'classical' weapons in China were the spear, the pole, the broadsword (Dao) and the double edged sword, (Jian). I have been taught the Yang Taiji Jian and some of the Yang style spear, and while I am no expert in either one, there are some similarities in application and concept with the Baat Jam Do and the Luk Dim Boon Gwun. One saying that was mentioned to me is that your pole should have the spear and your spear should have the pole.

Certainly from a Chinese martial arts perspective each weapon has it's own strengths and weaknesses that the application accounts for. However, I do feel that the knives and pole in WC, at least conceptually, also contain many of the elements found in the majority of weapons.

Pole = long weapon, blunt weapon
Knives = short weapon, edged weapon

For example, the spear can be used quickly with a darting nature due to the advantage of having a blade. In some applications, the body doesn't necessarily need to be behind the attack because the blade can cut with little pressure. The pole can also be used quickly, like a spear, against certain targets and one of the concepts, Biu, emphasizes the darting nature. Such similarites can also be found between the knives and the Jian and Dao. Indeed, all of the above 4 weapons also require skill in 'sticking' with the opponent's weapon and have methods to train it.

The limitations can arise when a sifu is not well versed enough in weapons, Chinese or otherwise, to make the connections.

Dzu

[Sharky]

i guess this is where all the crap wing chunners stfu eh?

"You can't see it if you blind but we will always prevail (true)/Life is like the open sea, the truth is the wind in our sail/And in the end, our names is on the lips of dying men/If ever crushed in the earth, we always rise again/When the words of lying men sound lush like the sound of a violin/The truth is there, it's just the heart you gotta find it in" - Talib Kweli

[Roy D. Anthony]

Yes, I see this commonality too in my fencing classes. In modern fencing there is a lot of Staff similarity in the footwork.
In the classical fencing, which I have only studied very little goes along with this back foot stepping to protect either the front or the back. as well as the Bat Chum Dao footwork.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mix styles.
Watchman do you have the flipping back of your Wing Chun Swords? Just curious.
Also, I have found that the footwork for Swords doesn't stand up well in empty hand fighting. i would be careful with that one.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I have been taught that perspective as well.
"Pole has spear, spear has pole and double edge sword, Double edge sword has Sabre."-Pan Qing Fu

I like your perspective of Blunt and Sharp, I never heard that one before but it is so true. Thank You for sharing that one.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I agree with you. On the street you may mix. in class don't mix. Especially, when you are not comfortable with it.
Quote:
When being attacked on the street one will resort to the method of fighting the person will feel most comfortable with. Not until one is confident in Wing Chun will one resort to using it. -Roy D. Anthony