For those that have learned more then one WC lineage

[SAAMAG]

I've started going to the EBMAS school here in town, having to go from WC to WT has proved to be a little annoying to say the least. I'm trying to keep my old habits from coming out, and trying to keep my current thoughts on why things should be done a certain way suppressed while Im there. Im trying to work off of a clean slate but it's really tough.

What are some of the things that you all have done to help ease the transition from one lineage to the next? I mean they do things really differently! I use 50/50 weighting, they use 0-100. I turn on the heels, they turn on the middle of the foot, I have a bit wider of a stance and they have a very close abduction stance. They also use a more square stance then some lineages of WC and don't use deflection as much, but more straight on interception (from what I've seen thus far) So whenever I accidently turn (say for example chor ma) I get corrected.

It's funny in a way, but on the other hand, I think it's also going to become a hinderance in my development in WT if it keeps happening. This usually isnt a problem for me going from one style to the next, but since WC lineages are so similar, it's hard for my body to differentiate.

Any thoughts on this one guys?

[sihing]

My only exposure to WC is through the lineage I am in, but my Sifu had first learned WSL WC system back in the mid 70's, which is probably even different from most WSL methods today. He then went on to learn from GM Cheung in Australia in 86', learning the whole system in 7 months. He told me that because he was teaching for so long he knew exactly what he would want in the perfect student, so he became that student, embodying everything needed to put himself in that state, consistent attendance, took notes, trained hard, listened to his instructors, reviewed what he had learned after class, etc. He said he emptied his cup and did not compare what he did before to what he was learning at the academy. So I believe it was more a mental thing than a physical thing. I know if I were to learn another WC system it would be difficult, especially with the weighting difference, we also use 50/50 weighting balance and to go to 100/0 would be hard. The hand movements may be easier to learn I believe. Some of us can do this easily and some can't make that transition quite as well. Good luck Van..

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"He then went on to learn from GM Cheung in Australia in 86', learning the whole system in 7 months."


James....you've really got to get a grip on yourself...and stop believing everything you hear.

Nobody will ever learn ANY wing chun system in it's entirety in 7 months.

[sihing]

Victor,

You've got to get a grip that there are people out there that can do things you can't, that most can't for that matter, but a select few can. Your own instructor certified him so how can you deny it? So this is not something I have heard, I've meet GM Cheung, spent days with him and have seen and heard him acknowledge my Sifu, to which there is certification proof, video proof and photo proof.

If he didn't learn it all then in 86-87' and hasn't been to Australia since, how was it possible for Sifu to demonstrate the Knife and Pole form also, since those are part of your Master level tests?

This is funny actually, because I knew you and only you would have a problem with that statement. If you don't agree with it or acknowledge it fine, but your own instructor acknowledged it so it really doesn't matter what you think of his certification or qualification, since technically my Sifu is your senior, regardless if he is in the association or not.

Plus the point of my thread was to use him as a example for Van, since I was just talking to Sifu about this a month ago, and he related his experiences to learning a different system than his previous one, so I thought I would pass that advice on to Van. Sifu learned four different systems over his MA career so he does have experience with it.


James

[KPM]

I spent many years in a lineage of Yip Man WCK. Then I started learning Pin Sun WCK. Already having an extensive background in another lineage certainly helped, because Wing Chun is Wing Chun after all. But........ As I have progressed I have discovered that there are subtle differences that count. Initially I was still training my YMWCK while learning Pin Sun. But as I got further along I dropped the YMWCK completely. Those subtle differences became more and more apparent and it was clear that by reinforcing things from YMWCK I was interfering with my learning of Pin Sun. It sounds like there is enough difference between your prior method and the EBMAS method that you will need to do the same thing. Going from 50/50 pivoting on the heels to 0/100 pivoting on K1 is a major biomechanical difference. If you want the new method to be "burned in" efficiently, you have to give up the old method. Only one can be "second nature." The only way for this to happen is hard work. :-)

Keith

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Vankuen

I use 50/50 weighting, they use 0-100. I turn on the heels, they turn on the middle of the foot, I have a bit wider of a stance and they have a very close abduction stance. They also use a more square stance then some lineages of WC and don't use deflection as much, but more straight on interception (from what I've seen thus far) So whenever I accidently turn (say for example chor ma) I get corrected.


I am from WSL, lineage. We too are 50/50, heel turners. However I have done some training with WT/ebmas people and although their engine is quite different from ours I would say that they *do* understand and employ the concept of yielding to a greater force than your own better than a lot other WC I have seen/trained with.

Concerning 0/100: The thing about a back weighted stance is, if you turn to it too early, that is, without sufficient prior commitment by an opponent during an attack, then you are left vulnerable if the opponent manages to square up to you. This is why IME they (WT) only turn into it once there is sufficient commitment/forward pressure from their opponent. In this respect it can be likened to a bull and a matador (slipping the force), rather than a bicycle wheel that rotates when you push on it hard enough (thus diverting the force).

[CoonAss]

i studied Yip man lineage for three years, both william cheung and Leung tings line (in parallel). this was in the late 80's/early 90's. back then, the two Cheung and TIng had differences but were much alike. Now, Leung Tings wing chun is very different from what i learned.

i also learned some Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun, my sifu at the time was learning from GM Mok during his visits to the USA.

for the past 5+ years i've been practicing Yuen Kay San WC. YKS vs. HK WC is very different. the methods and applications differ. i really had to re-learn things = from YGKYM, puches - pretty much everything. i've learned that one tan sao isnt necessarily the same tan sao as another. they look the same, but the methodology and details in shape/application vary; resulting in your effectiveness being changed.

the best advice i have is, to focus on what you are currently learning and trying to achieve. if your like me, it will be frustrating for a lil' while. try to differentiate the two for now.

hell, sometimes i start out doing one SLT and end up rolling into a different SLT half-way through...... my sifu just laughs and i blush.........

[t_niehoff]

Victor wrote:

Nobody will ever learn ANY wing chun system in it's entirety in 7 months.

**Sure they can -- anyone can #learn# it in a very short time; being able to use it skillfully, however, is something very different (than learning). Sum Nung, I understand, when visitors would try to get him to teach them "everything" quickly, used to joke that he could teach them everything in a day but they wouldn't be able to use it.

------------------

Vankuen,

You've encountered, IMO, one of the problems with most WCK training. Do you think you'd encounter the same problem if you went to a different boxing gym or BJJ school or thai boxing academy? Of course not. None of them try to enforce a "let's all do it like this" mentality because they realize that fighting is an individual expression, and that as individuals we must find for ourselves how to make things work for ourselves. If one uses function instead of form as their guide (as all fighters do), then they'll find that they'll do things naturally because they work most easily for us. Weighting, stepping, etc. shouldn't be lineage-specific -- dogmatic -- but rather we should do it because it is the most appropriate for the moment. Find what works for you and don't be bound by lineage.

[reneritchie]

"What are you doing, that's a Carlson Gracie-style armbar while we are clearly a Helio Gracie-style school!'

"Er... But, I learned this armbar from Royler, sir..."

"What? Oh, well he was obviously just joking around with you..."

"C'mon, he's fricken Royler, sir..."

"****it, I will not have any leg's-crossed armbars on my mats!"

[AmanuJRY]

Van,

I can only speak from a different perspective, I lerned EBMAS (WT) first and then WC.

The thing I keep in mind is that each 'approach' to WC is a *theory*, not much can be said to be an exact science. Take the time to learn the theory, put it through a testing process and then you will see what works for you.

Another thing to keep in mind is the 'doctrine' of the system, different 'theories' are usually based on slightly differing concepts of how the techniques of WC are employed and this can affect how the system is taught.

If I remember correctly, you are studying WT because there is few (or no) other WC schools in your locale, that's ok but you have to be open to learning their approach. That doesn't mean you have to accept it as gospel though.

[sihing]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Victor wrote:

Nobody will ever learn ANY wing chun system in it's entirety in 7 months.

**Sure they can -- anyone can #learn# it in a very short time; being able to use it skillfully, however, is something very different (than learning). Sum Nung, I understand, when visitors would try to get him to teach them "everything" quickly, used to joke that he could teach them everything in a day but they wouldn't be able to use it.

------------------

Vankuen,

You've encountered, IMO, one of the problems with most WCK training. Do you think you'd encounter the same problem if you went to a different boxing gym or BJJ school or thai boxing academy? Of course not. None of them try to enforce a "let's all do it like this" mentality because they realize that fighting is an individual expression, and that as individuals we must find for ourselves how to make things work for ourselves. If one uses function instead of form as their guide (as all fighters do), then they'll find that they'll do things naturally because they work most easily for us. Weighting, stepping, etc. shouldn't be lineage-specific -- dogmatic -- but rather we should do it because it is the most appropriate for the moment. Find what works for you and don't be bound by lineage.

Correct on the first part. Anyone can learn something in short periods of time, but can they use it and apply what they have learned. I believe Ray(Yongchun) also was taught WC quickly from Wang Kiu. The difference is in my Sifu's situation is that normally it was a 4yr course but he had a limited time in Australia and had only 1yr to complete it (his wife is from there so that's why they went to Australia in the first place), plus he had a Kung Fu school to get back to in Canada. In his situation since he was already a high quality practitioner for 23yrs and he had a keen interest in the WC that GM Cheung was offering it was easier for him to complete this task the way he did, as compared to someone who had no MA experience.

Your second set of recommendation are fine for the advanced practitioner (someone that has had time to absorb all the concepts of the system they are learning), but for the beginner they should follow the system and what they recommend to do in certain situations, or whatever dogma they proclaim. Years later they can individualize it and make it there own, for the individual is always the master of the system and not the other way around.

I think Van will have no problem after the initial comparison shock period is over. He has a good knowledge of WC's basic core concepts that all of us share, so this will make the task easier. The key would be to empty your cup and decide that one will learn this way of doing things and that's it, and after that combine it with the previous knowledge.

James

[mortal]

I think you could learn a system in under 6 months. You will be far from mastery though. Very far. I think it would not be a good idea to teach it to someone else.

[mortal]

t_niehoff


I just read your post. Sorry I posted wihtout reading the whole thread.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor wrote:

Nobody will ever learn ANY wing chun system in it's entirety in 7 months.

**Sure they can -- anyone can #learn# it in a very short time; being able to use it skillfully, however, is something very different (than learning). Sum Nung, I understand, when visitors would try to get him to teach them "everything" quickly, used to joke that he could teach them everything in a day but they wouldn't be able to use it." (Terence)


And what Terence wrote is exactly what I meant...was speaking rhetorically when I made my first statement. Being able to use what you've learned with the same efficiency and thoroughness as other people - when you have done the "crash course" thing - and other talented and dedicated people have spent many years studying with the same sifu...well the answer to that should be self evident.

There are many people who did the crash course routine with William Cheung through the years - and where are they now? How much TWC do they REALLY know? And how much of it can they perform with high quality fighting efficiency? Those are the questions. Two names some people might recognize in this category are Phillip Holder and Kip Claus.

But I don't want to hi-jack this thread and turn in into another "Why I think James' claims about his school/sifu are WAY over the top".....discussion.

We've been there - done that.

Van:

After re-reading your posts on this thread....my advice is to keep the two systems separate (IN YOUR OWN MIND)...keep two different notebooks - and then compare, contrast, and judge on your own...in private...at some point down the road.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Victor wrote:

Nobody will ever learn ANY wing chun system in it's entirety in 7 months.

**Sure they can -- anyone can #learn# it in a very short time; being able to use it skillfully, however, is something very different (than learning). Sum Nung, I understand, when visitors would try to get him to teach them "everything" quickly, used to joke that he could teach them everything in a day but they wouldn't be able to use it." (Terence)


And what Terence wrote is exactly what I meant...was speaking rhetorically when I made my first statement. Being able to use what you've learned with the same efficiency and thoroughness as other people - when you have done the "crash course" thing - and other talented and dedicated people have spent many years studying with the same sifu...well the answer to that should be self evident.

There are many people who did the crash course routine with William Cheung through the years - and where are they now? How much TWC do they REALLY know? Those are the questions. Two names some people might recognize in this category are Phillip Holder and Kip Claus.

James:"Maybe they are exactly where they want to be. Maybe they have transcended the TWC and have added on to it and made it there own (your doing the same with your catch-as-catch-can wrestling, adding it to your own repertoire). Being famous is not a indication of success, so your "where are they now" comment is supposed to mean what? How do you know what Philip Holder is doing today in his organization? If he's helped one person in a postive way then he has succeeded. Same with Rick Spain and Dana Wong, both have left the TWC organization and are still going strong, without the help of GM Cheung."


But I don't want to hi-jack this thread and turn in into another "Why I think James' claims about his school/sifu are WAY over the top".....discussion.

James :"Smart, good thinking, but the truth is "not over the top", just facts

We've been there - done that.

Van:

After re-reading your posts on this thread....my advice is to keep the two systems separate (IN YOUR OWN MIND)...keep two different notebooks - and then compare, contrast, and judge on your own...in private...at some point down the road.

James "I agree with this"

James

[45degree fist]

I have studied 2 different systems of wing chun
In order for me too fully appreciate what the new one had to offer, I had to totally empty my tea cup and stop looking at it from the previous systems viewpoint.

[reneritchie]

The difference is not always in the student or the tea cup, much beloved answer-all it may be. Sometimes a good teacher makes the difference.

If you've climbed half-way up the mountain, yet find the need to learn a different way to climb up the remaining half, you can either climb back down, learn the new way, and hope you ultimately make it to the end faster than you would have before, even counting the back track.

Or, you can make specific changes as you continue climbing on towards the top.

Not all coaches are good enough to teach this way, and not all students are apt enough to learn this way, but when you have the combination, instead of emptying out your tea cup and wasting all the time and ingredients that went into brewing what you had, you can chemically alter it to a better tasting brew right there in the same cup.

[45degree fist]

No one said forget what you've learned by emptying your tea cup.
what I was trying to communicate that any previous bias needs to be addressed before you can truly understand something different.

but I do agree with you on the good teacher comment.

[sihing]

Originally posted by reneritchie
The difference is not always in the student or the tea cup, much beloved answer-all it may be. Sometimes a good teacher makes the difference.

If you've climbed half-way up the mountain, yet find the need to learn a different way to climb up the remaining half, you can either climb back down, learn the new way, and hope you ultimately make it to the end faster than you would have before, even counting the back track.

Or, you can make specific changes as you continue climbing on towards the top.

Not all coaches are good enough to teach this way, and not all students are apt enough to learn this way, but when you have the combination, instead of emptying out your tea cup and wasting all the time and ingredients that went into brewing what you had, you can chemically alter it to a better tasting brew right there in the same cup.

Yes, after the new material has been learned, then you can concoct any thing you chose...

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

...and make a nice pumpkin pie for the holidays.

[Phil Redmond]

Hmmm, let's see. Between Alan Lamb, Duncan Leung/Alan Lee, Lee Moy Shan, Henry Leung, Moy Yat, (one Sifu from the mainland whose name I don't remember), and William Cheung. I see different teachers takes on the same thing.
PR