Strategy in Chi Sao

[Roy D. Anthony]

Has anyone here ever used the strategy of "shaking the grass to scare the snakes" in their Chi Sao?

[old jong]

No but...I like to use the "Smoking the hole to get the fox out" technique!... :D

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Roy D. Anthony]

Sounds good, how do you use it Old Jong?

[old jong]

It's a secret technique! Not for internet eyes!...Just kidding! :D

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Daredevil]

Okay, I'll bite? What's "shaking the grass to scare the snakes"? :)

[whippinghand]

duh

[old jong]

Doh?http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/SimpHomer.gif ;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[old jong]

I don't know what is that strategy you are talking about.In my view,Chi sao is simply an exercise not a contest.My only "strategy" is to keep a good structure to my bong,tan and fook!...And try to feel my training partner mistakes in his structure.If I feel a "hole",a motion will go by itself without any thought.
Could you explain?... :confused:

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[reneritchie]

It's from the "Thirty Six Strategies" (aka "Secret Art of War: 36 Strategems). "Hit Grass Startle Snake" is #13 and the first of the Attack Strategies. Basically, this one warns that you shouldn't move until you've ascertained an enemy's situation and that repeated checking discovers the hidden enemy.

If you're dealing with someone unfamiliar, IMHO, it may work once or twice but well honed WCK reflexes can make it risky (while you hit the grass, they might coil out and bite you).

BTW- I recommend the 36 highly. Like Sun Zi's "Art of War" it's a Chinese classic and permeates the culture to the extent that you can even trace back some WCK Kuen Kuit to it.

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

As mung hung suggested, Wing Chun is not one dimensional, and neither is the chi sau.

[whippinghand]

My last post is in response to Old Jong

[Roy D. Anthony]

Well actually OldJong,not trying to offend your skills, at higher levels of chi sao, many strategies are used. You should try them out once you read them in Art Of War.

[Watchman]

Hey, someone else experimenting with Sun-tzu's principles!

I have found the most valuable concept I have gained from that text and applied with my Wing Chun is the principle of "Strategic Advantage".

<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=8043605&w=128&h=128>

Shih

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparations against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[Scott]

I really like the "Rub the bottle to spurt the genie" Chi Sao technique.

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis

[Roy D. Anthony]

Hey Scott, we were doing so fine. Your comment is funny, but let's learn a little with this thread.
No offense intended here Scott.Thank you.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Watchman, thanks for the response. Now could you explain how you use it in Chi Sao? that would be great.

[old jong]

Roy,(and your accolyte Whiphand!)...My skills are not offended at all.I'm sure that you know a lot more about wing chun than I do but I have a few comments.
I believe that Wing Chun was created (enginered would be a better word)to beat other kung fu styles.It use simple motions and economic motions,directness...You know that!I don't have to say all this to anybody here! All other kung fu styles are aware of "the art of war" but still Wing chun has proven itself many times against others.You get my point here?...It's the principles of wing chun that makes it so good.I don't argue that it is not in agreement with "the book" but,it does not need to be a "cerebral" thing! Practice,good no nonsense practice is enough for most.Chi sao is a way to cultivate some skills in prevision of fighting.It is not a fight.It is an exercice.You get a good feeling for the three major motions and learn to applie their principles so you can use their PRINCIPLES in a real situation!...So if,these motions are the question,you would rather use the answer in a fight,the results.
I'm trying to be the least "unidimentionnal" here to make myself understood!

;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[old jong]

I realise I mispelled your name Whipping Hand!...Sorry!

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[rednyellow]

God forbid there be any humour involved.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I agree with you on many points, however I am not talking about fighting, I am talking about Chi Sao.
There is a WIng Chun Idiom which states that when 2 people of same skill meet, then strength same makes the difference.
When they are of same strength and skill, then Knowledge will determine the outcome. When they are of same strength, skill and knowledge then Strategy determines the outcome.
However, I do respect your viewpoints.

[S.Teebas]

I believe knowledge and strategy are encompased within skill.

[reneritchie]

All other things being equal, the one thing not equal can be the deciding factor (be it strength, speed, endurance, pain/damage tolerance, etc.)

IMHO, Chi Sao is a journey towards applicable skill, not a destination in and of itself (though it can be as fun a pass-time as chess), but for WCK in general, I think Roy has a good point. In fact, some of our WCK oral/written traditions already stem from these sources (for example, Sien Faat Jai Yan/Move First to gain Initiative, comes from Sun Zi).

(BTW - Secret Art of War 36 Strategems is not the same collection of writings as Sun Zi's Art of War though there can be overlap).

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

What exactly does that mean?

[Jeff Brown]

WhippingHand, my take on your quotation is simply that, through Chi Sao, one moves from the rudimentary skill of "understanding why this should work" to the higher skill of being able to use it more effectively. Obviously, the "journey" doesn't end, as each time you play at Chi Sao you learn something new.

Have you ever read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?" there is a section in it that is somewhat similar: the concept of an engine design can be perfect, but its application in the real world never quite achieves the same perfection -- it can only strive toward it. Very Platonic.

[reneritchie]

Well said, and also, IMHO, Chi Sao is but part of the progression within WCK (we do not do WCK to get good at Chi Sao but Chi Sao to get good at WCK).

In Chi Sao, IMHO, we build attributes (tactile sensitivity, reflexive response, bridge changing, dynamic balance, contact strategy) and have the ability to take apart and explore our WCK (sort of like lab testing). But, all these attributes need to be put back into our WCK, along with other progressions like San Sao, so in the end real application is our development.

Rgds,

RR

[Roy D. Anthony]

I do have a great sense of humour and I do not mind the humour as long as there is something substantial to say as well.
Of Course I am not the moderator of this forum, and neither is it my forum and neither have I ever behaved this way or ever believed that this was my forum.
Unfortunately, many beliefs have been formulated about me, due to certain sly insinuations upon my arrival.
I never expected this to happen! however I entered this forum and was put to test. Therefore the behaviour you have perhaps witnessed is my fighting mind. As you will discover in the future on this forum, is that I am informative all though I may chose not to be elaborate.
This is the way my Sifu taught me. To spoonfeed does not serve anyone, but to make them think serves them forever.

IDIOM:
In everyday life be like a Sheep, in fighting be like a Tiger!
-Pan Qing Fu
(my wushu SIFU)

[Roy D. Anthony]

The Other Half of the strategy "Beat the Grass and Scare the snakes", Is "let the grass settle and let the snakes pop up their heads, then chop them off."

[Jeff Brown]

Did you say you read this one in the Art of War, Sifu Roy?

I can see this clearly as a metaphor for faking out one's opponent. Not to offend, but what if the snakes don't scare easily?

I think what strategy takes to heart, with respect to Chi Sao, is that emotions are an effective "time bomb" dwelling within each of us. If you can't scare your opponent, then maybe try to anger him? Or feign weakness to embolden him?

These are ideas I have never heard discussed in my training classes, always just forms, stance, yada yada -- extremely important and I respect those who teach them to me, let there be no doubt. But the road to victory is clearly more complex.

[dzu]

Don't take the words too literally, but look at their meaning instead. "Beat the grass to scare the snakes" can be viewed as a way to see how the opponent responds to what you do. By beating the grass, the snakes will react and move. Once they move, you know how to deal with them.

IMHO it is essentially the same as the concept of Mun Sao (asking hand). Everything I do is a question to the opponent. His response is an answer to my question as well as a question for me. If he cannot answer my question he is hit. If I cannot answer his question, then I am hit.

Dzu

[Jeff Brown]

I think there are many interpretations of any given line of text, and that the personal meaning you derive is unique to you, the reader. Of course there is consensus and bound to be interpretations that are just plain nuts. I'm just exploring, however, not trying to hammer down one decisive meaning.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I'm not sure where I read that one. It's either in Treasury of China's Wisdom, or Chinese Idioms and their Stories, Six Secret Teachings on the Way of Strategy, The Wiles of War,or The Thirty Six Strategies of Ancient China, or Even one of the Translations of Art of War that I have.

Dzu,
You are absolutely correct, however we must not always be paranoid (not meaning you are ) just because there is a counter to a strategy. Like Chi Sao, Strategies change upon assessing the situation.

[Jeff Brown]

Which of the last mentioned books do you find most interesting?

[hunt1]

Strategy as discussed is not very WC specific.You can apply Sun Tzu to many of life's activities if so inclined.
To apply strategy in Chi sao is an example of mid level skills at best.
The beginner starts with no strategy because he has enough to do just rolling and understanding basic attacks etc.Next comes stategy which is a thought out plan of some sort.i.e basic use of energy of setting up a double lop situation etc.
Next comes no strategy.Your opponents roll and energy usage tells you what to do or not to do.
There are 8 or more energies to be utilized in chi sao (depending on how you've been taught some have 12 energies).It is the application of energy that you are looking for not a strategy.
I have very poor skills yet within 1 to 3 rolls I know where my opponent is weak ,can I hit him at will can he hit me at will etc.You can also identify the major Yip Man families within 3 rolls.To learn more I apply energy no need for a strategy. By feel you know what can and can not be done or what must be done to open up a hit if that is your goal.
Perhaps a better thread would be what energies do you utilize in Chi Sao.
You can beat the grass all you want. Someone that knows what he is doing wont send out any snakes he may dump you on your bum if you give him the right energy though.


;)

[Jeff Brown]

Even at the most basic level, if a student is playing at Chi Sao, s/he is strategizing -- even if confining possible actions/reactions to a few techniques only. I don't think one can be taught techniques first, strategies later. Rather, the basic techniques the beginner strives to "automate" exist under the larger umbrella of Wing Chun strategies -- not rules but possibilities. I don't think it is generally articulated like this, but I think it is true.

[whippinghand]

Meng Shuo,

Part of your reply to this quote was:
"through Chi Sao, one moves from the rudimentary skill of "understanding why this should work" to the higher skill of being able to use it more effectively"

I believe you are correct, however, missing the last point, which relates to the first. At an even higher level, you understand why it does work, as opposed to why it SHOULD work, which is not the same as "being able to use it more effectively".

This is the point where strategy is automatically assimilated (for most, not all students).
Therefore, I do not believe that strategy can be taught, but it CAN be assimilated.

[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 09-24-01 at 06:11 PM.]

[sunkuen]

PREPARE TO BE ASSIMILATED,RESISTING STRATEGY IS FUTILE!!! :D

[Jeff Brown]

WH, my use of the word "should" was to convey the beginner's sense of reluctant belief/faith in the system. Curse me for talking to myself more than others! :p

[Roy D. Anthony]

I find them all interesting, they all relate to chi sao directly if you can decifer their meanings and relate them to chi sao.

Hunt1
it is interesting that you say that Strategy is a mid level skill. Perhaps you are referring to those childish games people play in chi sao, with that I agree.
Strategy is a high level skill, for after experiencing chi sao (that is use of strategy constantly), the higher level is to be able to put those strategies to words.

[Jeff Brown]

I'll take a look for them. If you happen to know of any books that you find especially interesting, please let me know. Also, if you know of any written in Chinese, with scholar's notes of "suggested interpretation" ;) I'd be much obliged!

[hunt1]

Perhaps we are talking of different things.Strategy implies thought and planning.combat success requires no thought no planning that goes beyond the initial contact.(hand to hand of course).
There was a time i looked at chi sao like chess.this meant i used strategy,could plan moves ahead etc.For example when you lop there are only 3 things that your opponent can do(in general terms).we all have the same physial limitaions so the possible number of responses to any situation is limited.Once you know those possible responses you can prepare for your response etc.
This is what i think of when you use startegy in chi sao.Chi sao is about learning to react based on what you feel,what does the opponent give you.If you dont get what you like give the proper energy to invite the energy you desire.
In chi sao I go with the energy my opponent gives.I dont think about it at all.I dont care what my opponent does his energy tells me what to do and where to attack.Chi sao is about learning to feel and not to think.It is about using and understanding energy.there are 12 energies to use in chi sao how many can you use and when do you use them is whats important.In fact to talk about chi sao without discussing energy is in and of itself and example of mid level skill.
Chi sao is for learning combat reflexes in a safe environment.Yes many make chi sao a competion ,they are wrong and i doubt the true fighting skills of those that train in this manner.
I dont understand your point of putting stategy into words as being the goal or indicitive of true skill.Many talk the talk but few can kick ass.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Hunt I, once one gets over the idea of reactive chi sao, it changes to proactive chi sao, or if one choses to explore higher levels as such, using your energies for strategies indicates a high level of chisao. We don't talk the talk, my hands to the talking!