May Event in Cleveland [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

wingchunner

12-10-2004, 08:12 AM

Hello.

I'll do my best to keep the event organized so that way everything will go smoothly and everyone will have a great time and learning experience.

If you plan to attend, and you have people from your group who want to attend, you must send me an email letting me know.

I have designated a page at my website for this event. It includes the original 10 Point proposal along with a few more requirements. I have also included a form that can be used for questions, comments, or concerns.

Here is the URL:

May Event (http://wingchunner.tripod.com/id10.html)

Here is the location:

2435 Superior Ave., Cleveland, Ohio

You are welcome to stay at the school. If you do not wish to, the Holiday Inn on Lakeside is $94 per night.

Also, I will be forming a list of those who will be in attendance and what you will be bringing (food, drinks, snacks, etc.) to help make this event spectacular.

Again, Please contact me if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.

Thanks,

Marty Yoder

P.S. Would the moderators please make this a "Sticky"?

Ultimatewingchun

12-10-2004, 11:18 AM

Thanks, Marty.

Just filled out the form on your website.

Phil Redmond

12-12-2004, 01:05 AM

I finally had time to get to a computer. I've signed up as well.
Phil

wingchunner

12-15-2004, 06:44 AM

I've updated the list. We currently have at least ten people coming to the event. If you're going to bring students, please provide their names. The reason for this is because we have currently set the limit of people who will attend the event at 30. If I have their names, then it is a greater probability they wil attend. Also, we will be sending out formal invites to those who may attend.

For those who are coming: Please let me know where you are coming from. I think this would be of interest to those who are in attendance.

Also, if you could send me some information of what your agenda, expectations are for the event, and/or what you hope to bring from the event, this will help us prepare to make this event outstanding.

May Event (http://wingchunner.tripod.com/id10.html)

Marty Yoder

Ultimatewingchun

12-15-2004, 11:18 AM

Marty:

I'll be bringing two of my most senior students - Michael Mundy and Myron Young.

In addition..."mortal" (Anthony Arrigo) may have already registered with you. He'll be coming. I mention him because he recently joined my school.

What I hope to do at the event is some chi sao and drills....but mostly as a lead up to sparring...first light....then perhaps a bit heavier with protective equipment - which I will be bringing with me.

No pressure...I'll probably start out doing some chi sao/sparring with some of my students - and then we'll see about whoever else...Would love to workout (spar, drill, chi sao, etc.) with Ernie - for example. (Mike, Myron, and Ernie too...are prepared to spar with whoever would like to while using non-wing chun techniques as well).

But again - no pressure on anyone to participate. And no attempt to intimidate anyone.

I want this event to be beneficial to everyone...but for me it's mainly about sparring - not drills or chi sao.

Ernie

12-15-2004, 02:37 PM

Wow i'm not even there yet and i'm sparring :D

i got 2 things to get past
1 my arm i was teaching last night and was doing a demo on the motorcycle helmet [don't ask]

and when my left hit it was like sticking your finger in a light socket i went down from my own shot [ yes i know i'm stupid ]

2 it will run me $600+ to pull this off from LA so i have to see if it's worth it to me , and run it past my lady

so that's were i'm at as of today

Ultimatewingchun

12-15-2004, 04:10 PM

Ernie:

First of all - stop killing your body.

Secondly - you don't have to spend that much money. If you want...we can double up on the hotel room. Your end would be just be $47.00 dollars per night.

Ernie

12-15-2004, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Ernie:

First of all - stop killing your body.

Secondly - you don't have to spend that much money. If you want...we can double up on the hotel room. Your end would be just be $47.00 dollars per night.

I'll talk to you offline as things take shape

--- I’m a very obsessive person, even Gary put a 2 week stall on my knife training since he saw me falling apart ,
So I’m planning a snowboarding trip in my off time
:D :D :D :D

Ultimatewingchun

12-15-2004, 08:48 PM

A snowboarding trip....hehe, hehe, hehe, hehe !!!

You crack me up, man.

AUM.......AUm.......Aum........aum......au........ ........m

Asleep yet ?

wingchunner

12-20-2004, 06:59 AM

Hello:

I've been trying to keep the list updated. Currently, we have aound 18 people that might be attending from across the country. (It might be cool to have some of you from Canada, Australia, Europe, etc. attend if possible.) After tomorrow, I won't be able to update the list until the end of the first week of January. So, if you don't see your name on the list right away, don't think that I'm ignoring you.

May Event (http://wingchunner.tripod.com/id10.html)

Remember: Everyone needs to come to this event with a great attitude. People need to be mature and keep emotions under control, which can flare up when sparring. This is not a competitive event. This is not a promotional event. This is a forum for you to test your skill against other people of various sizes, from different places, from different interpretations of Wing Chun. Our goal is to keep the event positive, fun, and even educational. We can all learn from each other.

From my perspective (Marty Yoder's), I want to see what my weaknesses are, and make them less of weaknesses. I want people to share and to be open to be shared with. There should be lots of food, fun, and wing chun.

It'll be great!

Have a great holiday season.

Marty

Savi

12-20-2004, 06:28 PM

I have not heard an official word, but I believe several members from the Ving Tsun Museum are very interested in attending.

Again, I have not heard an official decision though.

Ultimatewingchun

12-20-2004, 10:53 PM

Savi:

Well, officially speaking...as long as they're willing to go along with ALL of the 14 points - and they understand that they're coming to participate in the action - and that it's not simply a photo-op...so all talk of museums and lineages...and master this and curator that - will have no place at this event...

Then why not?

Savi

12-21-2004, 04:20 PM

The nature of this event is understood quite clearly Vic.

Jim Roselando

12-22-2004, 07:57 AM

Hey Savi,

I dont mean to highjack this thread but are you or any of the other HFY troup (azwingchun, chango, etc.) willing to participate in the Video footage idea?

If so, please reply to the Video thread!

Regards,

Phil Redmond

01-02-2005, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
Wow i'm not even there yet and i'm sparring :D

i got 2 things to get past
1 my arm i was teaching last night and was doing a demo on the motorcycle helmet [don't ask]

and when my left hit it was like sticking your finger in a light socket i went down from my own shot [ yes i know i'm stupid ]

2 it will run me $600+ to pull this off from LA so i have to see if it's worth it to me , and run it past my lady

so that's were i'm at as of today

Yo Ernie, I'll look around for a cheaper flight for you. You never know, I might get lucky. The earlier you book the flight the cheaper of course. I booked a $263 round trip flight to PR from Detroit on Spirit Airlines a month in advance when other Airlines were much higher.
Phil

Ernie

01-02-2005, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Yo Ernie, I'll look around for a cheaper flight for you. You never know, I might get lucky. The earlier you book the flight the cheaper of course. I booked a $263 round trip flight to PR from Detroit on Spirit Airlines a month in advance when other Airlines were much higher.
Phil

cool good look'n out Phil

but on the real my arm is not getting any better , i just 2 weeks off of everything [ i'm going nuts and getting fat ]

and it's just the same no better no worse , so right now i have one mission and that is to heal

so i will be flying under the radar for a while , try and just keep my head out of training

put my energy into running and stretching and just getting better

this being a regular person $hit sucks :D :D :D

Ultimatewingchun

01-02-2005, 08:42 PM

Better heal up, Ernie.

Because Phil and I have already discussed what we're going to do to you if you don't show up in Cleveland.

We're gonna fly out to California...and I'm going to grab you in a standing full nelson...

and then Phil is going to tickle you under your armpits until you scream the words...

"FORM PRACTICE, ANYONE?"

wingchunner

01-03-2005, 07:35 AM

How about this idea...

People need to come ready to spar. If someone doesn't spar, then they will not be allowed to return on Sunday. This will eliminate "watchers".

Also, the people who are sparring will determine what level they will be sparring at. For example, I think people should start off light. As people spar, then (usually) people turn it up a little bit. They should both agree to continue sparring at that degree, or return to the lower level. This way (on a continuum form one to ten with one being very light and ten being full contact) people could start at a 3 or 4 level, if they don't feel comfortable sparring at a 6 or 7 level they can step away. This way it's more mutual/beneficial as to what level they're sparring at. It would be unfair if one person is sparring at a level of 3 while the other person is sparring at a level of 7. If one wants to progress to a level of 7, it should be mutually agreed upon. If an agreement can't be reached, then both should agree that their sparring session together is over.

Just some thoughts. I'd like some feedback.

Marty

Fresh

01-03-2005, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by wingchunner
How about this idea...

People need to come ready to spar. If someone doesn't spar, then they will not be allowed to return on Sunday. This will eliminate "watchers".

That will rule out Ernie and probably a bunch of others who have restrictions. Take it to far and that kind of thinking could lead to cutting out anyone who isn't healthy or fit from learning wing chun at all or wanting to. Guess it depends on what kind of event you want to have tho. If its just a sparring match or tournament, you should just call it that.
Will video taping be allowed? If so there will be watchers anyway. I heard of some people using video tape to be sure nothing gets out of hand or in case some one gets sued.
What ever you decide have fun and knock yourselfs out! :D

wingchunner

01-03-2005, 10:21 AM

I would think video taping would be allowed, especially of oneself to determine how one's fighting skill could improve. If someone is injured but can still do some chi sao there isn't any reason why they can't do some light sparring and keep it at a level of 1-2. The point is: this is an active event designed to try what you know and see how your sparring works with others, and learn.

The goal is to touch hands. If there are 20+ people there, then that's twenty people you haven't touched yet and you can feel what their energy is like and learn how to deal with that energy better. If someone feels uncomfortable working above a light sparring level, they should work it out with the person they are sparring with, otherwise they can stop.

However, it's not right that someone just come and video tape and not contribute to the sparring. I would think we would want to try to weed out those as early as we can. Those who plan on attending are planning to spar. There will be plenty of time for people to share about forms, techniques, etc outside of the sparring time. However, there probably will be at least eight hours per day devoted to sparring.

Any further feedback?
What do you think?

Marty

Fresh

01-03-2005, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by wingchunner
If someone is injured but can still do some chi sao there isn't any reason why they can't do some light sparring and keep it at a level of 1-2.

So like some one who can do like don chi sao or only put weight on one leg should do one armed or one legged "sparring"? :D :D :D
Touching hands is a good thing. Sparring is just one way to do that. Everyone might not agree what level 2 sparring means so you might want to be real clear with examples or something.
What I meant about the video tape is that if you allow it then any one can see it after the event any way so you aren't really keeping people from seeing it.
Any ways have fun and get good!

Ultimatewingchun

01-03-2005, 12:41 PM

Marty (wingchunner):

I agree with everything you've said within your last two posts...

and you ESPECIALLY hit the nail right on the head with these thoughts:

"It's not right that someone just come and video tape and not contribute to the sparring. I would think we would want to try to weed out those as early as we can."

.................................................. .........................

Which is not meant to take anything away from this other idea of yours - which is also right on the money:

"The people who are sparring will determine what level they will be sparring at. For example, I think people should start off light. As people spar, then (usually) people turn it up a little bit. They should both agree to continue sparring at that degree, or return to the lower level."

Couldn't agree more, Marty.

As long as the amount of contact is agreed upon between the two people - then this should be a sparring event much more so than anything else.

And to those who may worry about this - remember that it's not a tournament event - precisely because each participant will regulate (upon agreement with his sparring partner)....EXACTLY what can be done...with what amount of intensity and contact...with protective gear....without protective gear...and can opt to stop at any moment if they so choose.

So there are no winners and losers - and there are no trophies to take home and mount on the wall.

There'll still be time for some chi sao and other drills...

but it should primarily be about SPARRING.

A mutual exchange of ideas and techniques by way of some friendly competition.

As you folks may recall - this was the final Point (#10) of the original
10 Point Proposal...

"...With the ultimate goal being that Wing Chun SPARRING/FIGHTING SKILLS are further developed in a mutually-supportive atmosphere."

Ultimatewingchun

01-12-2005, 08:02 AM

Don't even bother with this one, Savi.

Do yourself a favor.

duende

01-24-2005, 10:00 PM

Good advice Victor...

The "yeehaaaa" bit is especially tragic.

JamesHFYofAZ

01-28-2005, 08:54 PM

if the nature of this event is clearly understood about being about the individual, free of all the BS that comes with lineage and organizations, why do any of you need and official decision It would be hard to gather so many in one place with out some political discussion/debate. Further, if one can not understand chain of command within ones organization, then ones organization is chaotic. So if you don't understand then don't speak on it, stay the rebel with no purpose!:D

AztecaPreist

01-28-2005, 11:03 PM

It was best to have let that one die out.

Savi

02-01-2005, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by crimsonking
Indeed AztecaPriest, but you've just added fuel to the fire (or burning embers...) I've got marshmellows and a roasted chicken... it's almost ready! Anybody hungry?

Chango

03-06-2005, 07:58 PM

Hello,
I have visited the website to register myself and a few of my students. We never recieved confirmation. This was done a month or two ago. I just wanted to know if I should have recieved some type of varification. Please let me know.

Chango

wingchunner

03-07-2005, 12:10 PM

I received your email. I haven't updated in a while.

Marty

Sihing73

03-26-2005, 08:39 PM

Hello,

I was curious if this was still a go and also whether there was room for people to attend. I recall the limit being on 30 participants. I currently work weekends but I could try to get off to attend. I am also curious if others from the Philly area, NY/De/MD may be interested in carpooling.

Peace,

Dave

Ultimatewingchun

03-27-2005, 03:04 AM

Dave:

It's definitely still on...contact Marty (wingchunner - the post immediately preceding yours) about whether or not there's room for a few more.

martyg

03-29-2005, 02:09 PM

Dave:

It's definitely still on...contact Marty (wingchunner - the post immediately preceding yours) about whether or not there's room for a few more.

Just to clarify again - that's a different Marty than me. Someone on another wing chun message board posted that it was me and that I was coming, confusing me with the Wingchunner "Marty".

Good luck with the event.

Ultimatewingchun

03-29-2005, 06:16 PM

Yeah...Marty Yoder's the man (wingchunner).

Want to give us an updated list of who's coming, Marty?

It's almost April - let's see how it's shapin' up!

wingchunner

04-04-2005, 07:05 AM

Give me a day or two. I'm back to work after vacation. I'll post updates on what's happening then and what will be required as well.

Marty

wingchunner

04-06-2005, 11:56 AM

...for updated information on the May event.

Also, if you're not able to come and live near San Fran:

Want to workout San Francisco, CA?

I am posting for my teacher, Carl Dechiara who will be in San Francisco CA, (April 14-17) and is looking for anyone that might want to workout, in wing chun, tai chi, bagua or any other internal arts. If you would like to workout in the morning any day, does not matter 6 AM to 11 AM will work. Anyone that might want to share and exchange info. email or call his cell phone. Email: cd2@earthlink.net, cell: 330-573-7820.

Thanks,

Marty

wingchunner

04-07-2005, 09:01 AM

1.) Ok. I know everyone has been impatient. I've been talking my teacher, Carl Dechiara, and we want to make this an outstanding event. We also want to make it fair and we also need to know specifically who is coming. Here is the list of people I have received emails from (this is confirmation that I received an email; NOT that you are necessarily permitted to attend):

Victor Parlati
Phillip Redmond
Rik Treiber
David McKnight
Tony Ison
Scott Stapleton
Chango Noaks
David Bowman
Joel Pryor
Wayne Schultz
Robert Hannon
Jeremy Roadruck
Benny Meng
Dariusz Glinski
Greg Wegrzycki
Anthony Arrigo
Francis Carew
Derek Rozanski
Alan Ngai
Shane Fischer
Steve Milliet
Rindge Leaphart

This is how I received your name, let me know if I misspelled it.

2.) This is a great list. However, many of the people who have students said that they will be bringing any where from one to ten people. This will not work.

3.) Also, we have a too large of a representation from several groups. So, to remedy this, we will have separate lotteries representing those groups to determine who will come. Once we have chosen people within those groups their place will be non-transferable.

4.) The original email that you sent me was to see if we could get a decent sized group together. Now, We need to determine specifically who will come. I need you to email me again to verify that you are still willing to come. You can either email me from your own account or you can use the email mailer that's on my website.

Your email should contain the following (in this order please):
First and Last names
Mailing Address
Phone number(s)
email address

My email address is:
wingchunner@yahoo.com

5.) Also, if you know of people that you teach or work with that want to come, you must provide the same information for each person found in part (4.) of this post.

6.) Once I receive your email, I will confirm your email. Remember, this does not gaurentee your acceptance into the event. Please reread the 10-point proposal (plus the added stuff) and be ready to spar. This can be found on my website:

May Event (http://wingchunner.tripod.com/id10.html)

7.) I have designated a part of the forum associated with my website for the May Event. Here is the URL:
May Event Forum (http://xsorbit27.com/users5/academyofimmortalpalm/index.php)
I would suggest dicussing the May Event here instead of on Kung Fu Magazine forum so that way everyone won't be posting a bunch of junk posts and I can moderate it a little bit.

I am sure I will have more to come.

Martin Yoder

CoonAss

04-17-2005, 12:31 AM

hey ya'll,

Sorry, but it looks like i wont be able to attend the get-together in May.... i'm building a house, and due to weather, things are a little behind. soooooo, i'll have to remain down here and ensure that things get back on track.

Sorry again, i really wanted to attend. but as life would have it, i have to get this house done for my family.

please, remove my name - along with Shane Fischer's name also.

Apologies..... Steve Milliet

Phil Redmond

04-22-2005, 11:28 PM

I'm still planning on coming to Cleveland with my student Vladimir but I just found out that my daughter's due date is May 14th. I may have to fly to Brooklyn for the event. I'll keep you posted.
PR

CarlD

04-25-2005, 07:22 PM

Well we have just a few more weeks till the meeting in Cleveland. I am excited about the event that all of us may get to workout with 10-15 new people. I am confident that we can make it a good event.

THe goal being safety first and then a dicussion of how everyone spars. And then sparring for hours.

We have space at the school if anyone wants to sleep there, let Marty know.

Regards,

Carl

sihing

04-25-2005, 09:26 PM

Is the event going to be video taped and made available to the public for purchase at a later date?

Maybe a idea to do so, as us that won't make it will still have a chance to see what happened at the event.

James

CarlD

04-26-2005, 08:40 AM

Hi Everyone,

Just read this and it seems to sound close to what I am hoping for.

Sparring
Sparring will be available for anyone who chooses to participate. Any level of intensity from light touch contact to full-contact and anything in between is available. The only requirement is that both parties must agree to the level of engagement beforehand in the interests of sportsmanship and a fair match.
If you just want to play around lightly with another participant to demonstrate or test your material, that is fine. Participants are encouraged to share material with one another in a friendly atmosphere as much as possible. If you really want to pressure-test your stuff at full-contact against a resisting opponent from a completely different style so you can pound each other silly, that too will be available. If you would rather set up a match using medium contact with designated targets and a specific set of rules, you will be accomodated. If you'd rather not spar altogether and just train, teach or talk with new friends, by all means feel free.

The bottom line is that this event is all about what you want out of an event as a participant. Our participants will be respected as adults capable of making their own decisions as to what activities they choose to participate in or not, to whatever degree they choose.

It's your event and I hope that everyone can add to it.

Also anyone that is coming, feel free to post any ideas of what you might like to see happen, or concerns that you may have.

Regards,

Carl

wingchunner

04-26-2005, 11:03 AM

Those who emailed me the first time need to let me know if you're coming. If you didn't receive an email with an attachement of the waiver you are currently NOT on the list of attenders. If you're still able and want to come, you need to email me. I will not be publicly showing the list of attenders (though it should be obvious of some of the attenders).

Marty Yoder

Ultimatewingchun

04-26-2005, 12:00 PM

"I will not be publicly showing the list of attenders..." (Marty)

WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE to keep that information confidential, Marty?

If someone is planning on coming, why would they object to allowing their name to appear on the list?

I don't see the logic...Is there something to hide?

Keeping an OPEN and up-to-date list...as we get closer to the event...would be of benefit to all parties concerned.

Would it not?

I'm also a bit confused about all the hoops you seem to be asking people to jump through before they can attend - when it comes to these waiver forms.

Why not keep it very simple?....Such as...when they arrive...they have to sign the waiver before being allowed to participate.

What's wrong with that?

wingchunner

04-28-2005, 04:44 AM

May Event list of those who confirmed that they ARE coming:

Carl Dechiara (Host)
Marty Yoder
(There will be a couple other of Carl's students, but not sure exactly who will be coming for sure yet.)
Derek Rozanski
Rik Treiber
Greg Wegrzycki
Darius Glinsk (if he can get his visa into the US in time)
Victor Parlati
Myron Young
Michael Mundy
Alan Ngai
Phil Redmond
Vladimir Munguia
David Mcknight (might have to cancel)

This is the list so far.

The reason for not posting the list was to try to keep SOME annonymity (sp?) as in the original 10 pt proposal. But, it seems that most will know what lineage people are from... oh well. We'll still have fun!

Also, more video post to be posted in the next day or so.

Marty

Zhuge Liang

04-29-2005, 01:25 PM

Are there additional details to the event? Specifically, I'm looking for the start time. Also, what will be the schedule for Sunday? More sparring or are there other things planned?

Thanks,
Alan

Ultimatewingchun

04-29-2005, 01:57 PM

Alan:

Yeah...I've been wondering about start times also; I guess it's best to leave that up to Carl and Marty to decide.

As to Sunday's agenda, I would imagine it would be more sparring, for those who want to. That's not to say that other things might not pop up spontaneously (ie.- if someone wanted to do some chi sao with me, for example, I'd probably do it). If someone wanted to drill a few things, rather than sparring or chi sao, I might agree to that too. And the same for my 2 students who are coming...and I'm sure Phil Redmond and his guys would be the same way.

But I'm there primarily to spar with people.

CarlD

04-29-2005, 06:33 PM

Hi Everyone,

I will be at the school at 8 AM for those of you that can make it. If not show up any time after that.

Sunday I think that 8 to what lets say 2 pm will work.

I too want to put in as much time as my body can take.

Carl

Chango

05-05-2005, 05:32 AM

Hello Marty,
Please check your PM. Myself and others from my group was not aware that we had to re-register once again. This is the first time I've visited this thread since the time that you said that the participants will recieve an E-mail. Myself and others in my group are very eager to attend. Please E-mail me I provided my address in the PM I sent to you before. Thanks in advance.

Chango

CarlD

05-09-2005, 04:17 PM

Hi Everyone,

I spoke with Phil and Victor , we are excited about the possibilities. I am looking forward to working with everyone that shows up. See all of you on Sat. around 9:00 AM. Hope everyone has a safe trip to Cleveland.

Regards,

Carl

School address is 2435 Superior Ave, go around the back of the building and up the steps. Free parking in the lot.

Ernie

05-13-2005, 07:31 AM

Have fun guys !
play nice
if not
play dirty :D

next year do it Cali or Miami hell Hawaii !!!!!!!

wingchunner

05-15-2005, 05:23 AM

A bit about the first day:

I got there at about 10:45-11:00. Besides some of Carl's students, Derek and Rik were there from Brooklyn, NY and Phil Redmond had just arrived. A little after 11:00 Carl announced that we get started and proposed some methods to start out with. Everyone agreed that we start at a "level one or two". We did some energy/sensitivity work finding openings and letting the other person know when we were able to get in and that kind of thing. Some people turned it up a little more, but they were stopped and told either to back down to level one or two or to take a break and cool off. Victor and Marlyn (sorry if I misspelled anyone's name) showed up around lunch time. Most went for chinese take-out at the local restaurants, but some hung around and had some of the snacks and bottled water that people brought. Victor and Marlyn showed their idea of what they thought would be good to do. Then names were put on paper slips and we started to round-robin. After a few couples had sparred, there was a disagreement as to how the sparring should continue. After talking for a little while, a couple groups broke off and began doing some working out/light sparring on their own. Some mats were brought out and some non-wing chun(at least imo it wasn't wing chun). At around 3:30 some of our group (including myself) needed to leave. Everyone stopped for a group photo, and then went back to work. since I left around 3:30, and I will not be able to attend today (Sunday) I'll leave it to the others what happened last night and today.

Everyone seemed glad that they were able to attend. I hope they found Carl, myself, and the rest of us very open and hospitable and I hope they had a wonderful time.

Marty

Ultimatewingchun

05-15-2005, 10:37 PM

Just got back from Cleveland...

My flight Friday night was delayed 2 hours (which I spent sitting on the plane) due to electrical storms in Cleveland; and by the time we completed the flight, got to the hotel, and went to get some dinner (Myron and I were starving) - it was midnight.

And by the time I digested my food and finally fell asleep it was the wee hours of the morning...so it was about 12:00 before we arrived at Carl's school, and I had gotten very little sleep.

So as Marty reported, Myron and I geared up and did some drills and sparring...which turned out to be a different approach to what Carl had already began doing before I got there; and I didn't like the names being picked out of a hat to spar idea...could be a total stranger you've never met - the two of you may have different ideas about what sparring is and how to go about it...the video cameras are rolling, people are watching you very attentively, etc. (A good formula for things getting out-of-hand, imo).

So Carl and I had some debate and discussion about this (and some others voiced their opinion as well) - and we all decided to let it be more informal on the first day, let people gravitate to this or that person, discuss, chi sao, spar (including contact with protective gear), roll on the mats, (all of which did occur on Saturday between various people)....go out to dinner together Saturday night (which we did, at a terrific restaurant I might add)...and then Sunday we would all feel more comfortable with each other (and I told Carl on Saturday night at dinner that I would definitely spar with him on Sunday).

Not going to get into what exactly happened on Saturday after Marty left, or what happened on Sunday (and why) - but I will say this much...although only about 14-15 people showed for the weekend - I think it was a good experience for most of us...and myself, and Phil, and Carl (and pretty much everybody) managed to get along, and I met some interesting people.

But before going any further with that, let me say this about not going into details...

THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH TROLLING, BAITING, BICKERING, INSTIGATING, ONE-UPSMANSHIP, AND EVEN FALSE IDENTITIES going on around here.

So I'm not going to talk about exactly who said they were coming but didn't show up, who sparred who, or who rolled with who...or why this or that happened, or how many punches A landed on B, or how many kicks C landed on D...or anything else along those lines.

Suffice it to say that the event was positive, and I'm considering hosting another one here in NYC at some later date.

btw...Derek Rozanski (Ving Dragon) - who does wing chun and also trained under Andreas Hoffman in weng chun - turned out to be a very nice guy.

(I mention this because I think some of us may have seen some of the photos on his website and got a false impression of the man).

He's good people.

Phil Redmond

05-16-2005, 06:55 AM

I can say this, anyone that thought Wing Chun and Tai Chi people can't fight should have been in Cleveland ;)
Phil

VingDragon

05-16-2005, 07:40 AM

hi everyone,
thanks Victor for your nice comment. Event in Cleveland has proove, that no matter what system and lineage, politic, marketing etc... people can join together in searching of knowledge. Nice people, great seminar.

here is a link to pictures from the event:

http://imageevent.com/vingdragon/os

http://photos.imageevent.com/vingdragon/os/websize/IMG_0427.JPG

if you have more please share

Zhuge Liang

05-16-2005, 08:17 AM

I'll be brisk with my report as well. :) I was only there for Saturday, but I did get a little bit of sparring in. Basically, same as everyone else said, great people all around, both inside and outside of the gym. I would recommend anyone to hang out with Phil and Victor if you get a chance. They have lots of fun stories to tell ;). As for me, I will definitely want to take part in another one. Perhaps one of these times we can have it on the west coast. You guys should try to meet Gary's and Ernie's people.

Alan

mortal

05-16-2005, 08:28 AM

You guys traveled half way across the country to spar. Everyone is so friendly nobody wants to say who the best fighters were. I'm sure everyone on the site wants to know. Who exactly was a quality fighter with skills?

Ultimatewingchun

05-16-2005, 08:37 AM

That's exactly the kind of questions and answers that need to be avoided, Anthony...imo.

If and when the day comes, (and after more of these events have successfully taken place)...so that we can start having organized Wing Chun Sparring Tournaments - then there will be winners and losers and fighters who excelled in their skills - and it will all be obvious to everyone who witnessed it.

But for right now...I think we need to build bridges more than we need to give out report cards on people.

Samson

05-16-2005, 08:41 AM

any sparring or full contact videos?

Ultimatewingchun

05-16-2005, 08:53 AM

"any sparring or full contact videos?" (Samson)

*SO THAT a cowardly troll like you could try to rip into it???

You must think that we're a bunch of morons.

You gotta pay to play.

Come to the next get-together and show us who you are.

whitefox

05-16-2005, 08:57 AM

mortal

05-16-2005, 09:13 AM

Can't we build bridges and still admit who is skilled? If I spar someone and they beat me. I would say so and so is a great guy and owned me from the start when we sparred. Many people who have bested me in sparring have become my best friends. Now what is wrong with that?

Samson

05-16-2005, 09:23 AM

Well I did not think you would have any or at least post them

Ernie

05-16-2005, 09:24 AM

"any sparring or full contact videos?" (Samson)

SO THAT a cowardly troll like you could try to rip into it???

You must think that we're a bunch of morons.

You gotta pay to play.

Come to the next get-together and show us who you are.

Vic ,
smart move keep the video to those that were there , you guys put your word on it and followed through ,
no need to be the entertainment for those that didn't make it out there [myself included ]

nuff respect to all of you :) whens the next one ;)

Samson

05-16-2005, 09:26 AM

Ultimatewingchun

05-16-2005, 09:27 AM

"Can't we build bridges and still admit who is skilled? If I spar someone and they beat me. I would say so and so is a great guy and owned me from the start when we sparred. Many people who have bested me in sparring have become my best friends. Now what is wrong with that?" (mortal)

*NOTHING wrong with it, Anthony.

To each his own.

But you're ONE person talking about the experiences of one person. There are so many trolls and trouble-makers around here that any little thing could be twisted around and blown out of proportion.

It wasn't all peaches and roses. There were some moments when things could have been done differently and better. And I can think of one sparring match, for example, wherein someone got owned in the beginning and did real well by the end.

But naming names about who may have been better than who - or who landed more shots than who - or who's shots were ultimately more effective (and did more damage) than who...on a public forum that has become known as of late to be a hot bed of controversy - can do nothing but quell some people's curiousity while providing oil for others to throw on a fire that is already burning.

It's not worth it.

sihing

05-16-2005, 10:20 AM

I bet you who ever exceeded expectations and who ever did not live up to a expectation in their sparring/WC abilities and/or skills will be treated differently on this forum, and this will reflect in their post and how other that attended the event with them will respond to those post, that is human nature, so time will tell us all that didn't attend who was who at this event.

Glad to hear it was a successful event and that all who attended had a blast, good show guys....

James

Ernie

05-16-2005, 11:07 AM

Hey
i have a question
were you guys able to keep the lineage BS out , like well my sifu does it like this and my family does it like this junk
and just focus on the tools of application , foot work timing ETC,..

you know more individual growth instead of lineage ways ;)

Zhuge Liang

05-16-2005, 11:29 AM

Hi Ernie,

That was actually one of the best things. From my perspective at least, there really was no lineage pr or politics. Everybody represented themselves, and no one assumed otherwise. We did compare notes, of course, but we did it in a manner that was respectful towards each other's method. None of the, "you're doing it wrong, I'm doing it right." More, "this is how I do it, and this is why I think it is effective." Of course we had some disagreements, but that only gave us opportunities to elaborate on our methods.

I only wish I was there for Sunday, since I wasn't able to catch a lot of people sparring (I spent more time sparring on Saturday since I had to leave on Sunday). But I hope things went as well sunday if not better than saturday for everyone else.

Regards,
Alan

CarlD

05-16-2005, 04:02 PM

Hi Everyone,

As far as I could tell it was a great turn out and for the first time trial event was quite smooth. I think everyone had a good time. There were no injuries yet some of us had a chance to go fairly hard with full gear on. The feed back I am getting from my students is that they liked it for many reasons including, new friends, different ideas, and a chance to take an honest look at what they have been working on. It gave me a chance to look at some of the stuff we do and caused me to think a little more about how to make it better. It was great that everyone felt like they could share or talk about different issues and did not need to prove anything. It was nice to be around many different wing chun groups and yet no one felt the need to tell us about how great their teacher is, or how this lineage does it better. I had a good time and was able to make some new friends, which I am sure I will see again. Everyone from Cleveland said they really enjoyed themselves, and had a chance to learn a lot about their sparring. It was nice having beers with 5-6 different lineages, and no fights breaking out after the first one! I did have to restrain Phil… ;) just kidding. Yes Victor and Phil have some crazy stories, and Derek is cool even without the glasses. And Alan come back soon we want to fight you again and again.

So the question is when or where is the next one? I am willing to have it in Cleveland in 3-4 months.

Carl

Nick Forrer

05-16-2005, 04:17 PM

Did any of the sparring go to the ground?

Did any one use any non WC techniques?

Were lineage differences (technical ones) notable when the intensity went up?

EDIT: Since Mats and rolling was mentioned I assume there was a bit of MMA.

Ultimatewingchun

05-16-2005, 05:28 PM

"Did any of the sparring go to the ground?" (NF)

*NOT that I saw...what was done on the ground started on the ground, or started from a standing clinch; or in the case of weng chun - it started from chi sao range.

Did anyone use any non WC techniques? (NF)

*YES...especially from long range. There was some boxing type punches and footwork going on at times, as well as some kicking that wasn't exactly "pure conventional" wing chun.

Were lineage differences (technical ones) notable when the intensity went up? (NF)

*YES...to a certain extent. Some lineages were more eclectic in their approach, some more "conventional" in their approach.

BTW everybody...I'm looking at October 22-23 as possible dates for another EVENT, here in NYC this time.

Stay tuned.

Samson

05-16-2005, 07:46 PM

"any sparring or full contact videos?" (Samson)

*SO THAT a cowardly troll like you could try to rip into it???
Would not rip into it if it was the real deal, just would like to see if it is worth traveling for. There are hundreds of open tournaments where all styles are welcome to fight.

You must think that we're a bunch of morons.
No I just believe what I have seen from Wing Chun very un-organized and way behind the times and also Terrence seems to be right on the money at least in straight up facts
You gotta pay to play.

Come to the next get-together and show us who you are.
Lets see if it's worth my time or is this one of Wing Chun secret secrets

Ultimatewingchun

05-16-2005, 10:34 PM

YungChun

05-16-2005, 11:19 PM

I'll tell you all one thing that was a "winner" at the event in Cleveland...my headgear with the metal bars facecage.

A lot of people seemed to like them. (I brought some extra ones for folks to use while sparring).

On the very first sparring match that took place, while wearing a more conventional boxing headgear, someone caught a finger in the eye (almost everyone wore thin semi-fingerless gloves)...and the match had to be temporarily stopped so that he could recover (and he changed his headgear to one that had a facecage).

Some people liked the chest protectors that I brought also...and some probably wish now they had used one. :cool: (ouch)!

Victor, what model head gear do you have? Would like to check it out online. Most of the head gear I've used doesn't absorb impact very well especially to the chin. Always interested in hearing what gear is working for people.

Have you checked out or tried Tony Blauer's GEAR?

-----------

Accidental finger's, Bui Sao, in the eyes do seem to happen quite a bit.

Even with the narrow opening for the eye's in the gear I have both myself and a buddy ended up getting one in the eye, which does tend to slow things down to a screeching halt, LOL, despite what some have posted.

Ultimatewingchun

05-17-2005, 09:34 AM

YungChun:

I don't like Tony Blauer's stuff - too big and bulky.

What we've done is take the typical PRO FORCE headgear (they're white in color)...and we removed the plastic face cage that normally comes with it...and we customized it by replacing it with a hockey face cage.

They can be bought separately at some sporting good stores, and they fit perfectly onto the headgear.

The advantages are that there are enough horizontal and vertical bars to completely protect the face, but they're thin enough not to impede vision the way that the thicker plastic bars do (that normally come with the headgear).

And because they're metal - there won't be any fingers finding their way into the eyes anymore - because it's too easy to hurt your fingers on the metal...and people will quickly learn not to go to the face openhanded.

YungChun

05-17-2005, 10:34 AM

Thanks Vic.

Yeah I have the PRO FORCE ones I think with the plastic sheild with the opening for the eyes - lousy range of vision.

Interesting stuff.

RikT

05-17-2005, 11:05 AM

Great weekend in Cleveland. Carl and his Cleveland guys and gal were the most gracious hosts I could have imagined. BIG BIG THANKS to all of you.

I found Saturday's sticking to be a great warm up, both physically and in terms of getting a sense of the skills and temperament of the participants. In a way, it was part of getting to know each other before ratcheting up the intensity. Also a great way to stay mentally and physically warm between other workouts. I don't think it was overdone (and I like the higher intensity stuff). We spent a number of hours Sunday morning doing various other workouts. For example, I spent time a good deal of time on the mats: with Hal showing me escapes from holds on the ground; with Carl showing (VERY effectively, I might add, concurring with Phil that the "soft" forms have effective applications in "hard" situations, even on the ground) how he slithers out of holds on the ground and in an instant turning the advantage around; and (answering one of the posted questions) sparring with Derek from standing to clinch to takedown to finishing on the ground. (Whoever shot the video of that did a GREAT job.) I was exhausted and sore by the time Victor and Myron came (still hurts when I breath). Otherwise I would have loved to borrow some gear and get out there with them or anyone else, and I can't wait for the opportunity to do it again.

In short, I learned lots, including a practical lesson in why it's important to face some unfamiliar opponents and styles. Clearly, teachers and students with varying skills and ideas have a lot to teach and learn from each other. It may sound trite, but I think the amount we could learn was only limited by the amount of listening and participating we were willing to do. For those of you following this thread with skepticism: come next time and show your stuff, but watch out--you might learn something. Take the word of the immensely talented teachers and dedicated students that were there.

-Rik

hunt1

05-18-2005, 07:14 AM

Not trying to be a Troll but if some take this that way then so be it.

Have no interest in who beat who stuff but I was hoping for more definitive information.

2 of the top TWC sifus there. After seeing and feeling TWC in action would you start training it the way Vic and Phil did after they saw it. Did you see the blind side advantage? Were the footwork differences clear? etc

Carl got trashed after his vids were posted. Now has your opinion of his training methods changed if so why. Would you now seek out and pay to learn from Ken or Carl and adopt those methods and style of wing chun in place of the one you are now practicing? if so why.

Many HFY people were to attend. After seeing it in action what do you think af its tactics etc. Many people have paid $20000 to become a HFY disciple do you see why they made this decision.

Instead of just saying a learned some stuff tell us what you learned,what was different ot new to you and what long term impact this may have on your training.

whitefox

05-18-2005, 07:42 AM

Ernie

05-18-2005, 07:58 AM

Ernie

05-18-2005, 09:08 AM

I don't think it has anything to with "stepping up to the plate". From my understanding this was not a competative event. Priorities do take presedence do they not? Either I pay miss paying my rent or eating for a month, or come to the event? For me this is what it would have come down to. For what it is worth, it doesn't really matter what happened or didn't happen or who was better or worse or anything really as this is all of a passing interest to most of us, although it is nice to hear that all got along well and all that social stuff. I just find it interesting with all the hype and posts written previous to the event happening and then when it is done it becomes ush ush time.....There's been no mention at all about what was learned or who was the sleeper of the event or anything along the lines of skills pertaining to the different methods used (e.g. I found so and so's method of entry a very effective means, or so and so's concept of grappling is something I never saw in my system, bla bla bla..). Wasn't this the whole reason for the event taking place? Comparison of methodologies and experiencing it first hand? Also, if it wasn't for this forum this event would not have taken place, so therefore I believe that all should be prevy to what happened. If the participants were all associated through a more private means, like pen pals or personal contacts then yeah of course it is none of our business regarding what happened at the met.
Just my 50 cent....

James

Sorry bro
if you didn't make it to the party ,you don't get party favors . seems a little weak , to sit in the arm chair and try and validate concepts or other guys performances if you [or myself ] pussed out of the event for what ever reason

these guys said no lineage junk , so why are you trying to bring that sorry crap up , if you were not thre you didn't get up and do it it means diddly squat who pulled what off on who ,
cuz , you me and the rest that did not go , don't have the right to say a **** thing ,
that's just as bad as watching a video and thinking you would have done this or that if you were there just plan old weak crap

i like the silence ,
keeps the fantasy fu guys guessing :D

sihing

05-18-2005, 09:32 AM

Sorry bro
if you didn't make it to the party ,you don't get party favors . seems a little weak , to sit in the arm chair and try and validate concepts or other guys performances if you [or myself ] pussed out of the event for what ever reason

these guys said no lineage junk , so why are you trying to bring that sorry crap up , if you were not thre you didn't get up and do it it means diddly squat who pulled what off on who ,
cuz , you me and the rest that did not go , don't have the right to say a **** thing ,
that's just as bad as watching a video and thinking you would have done this or that if you were there just plan old weak crap

i like the silence ,
keeps the fantasy fu guys guessing :D

You can deny it all you want, but where you came from has a huge influence on how you do things. Lineage is important but it is not everything. Who taught me and how they taught me and what they taught me has a big influence on how, and why I do things the way I do, but I still have my own individual thoughts on things and methods. So it really has nothing to do with lineage as I didn't mention that in my post, but contrast is the spice in life at times and it is always interesting to see how the grass is greener (browner) on the other side.

Also, it has nothing to do with what I think. It has to do with what was the result of the different interpretations of WC being present in one room. More for curiousity sake than anything else. If no one wants to say squatt then so be it....

James

Ernie

05-18-2005, 09:40 AM

Samson

05-18-2005, 09:52 AM

Sorry bro
if you didn't make it to the party ,you don't get party favors . seems a little weak , to sit in the arm chair and try and validate concepts or other guys performances if you [or myself ] pussed out of the event for what ever reason

these guys said no lineage junk , so why are you trying to bring that sorry crap up , if you were not thre you didn't get up and do it it means diddly squat who pulled what off on who ,
cuz , you me and the rest that did not go , don't have the right to say a **** thing ,
that's just as bad as watching a video and thinking you would have done this or that if you were there just plan old weak crap

i like the silence ,
keeps the fantasy fu guys guessing :D

Ernie you sound like a ****ing idiot anybody that has to travel across the globe to spar has a screw loose there are 1000's of open tournaments everywhere wanna see if your wing chun works go try against non wing chun and see you get your ass kick it is no secret wing chun does crappy at open tournaments a system that claims to be the greatest seems to be the worse when it comes down to it. You don't see this garbage in Kickboxing, boxing BJJ they get right down to and prove their selves, put the gloves on or hit the matt that determines who is the better fighter from what school, not more Wing Chun secrets. The only time Wing Chun will show videos is if it favors wing chun and that why you do not see many fight videos. and if one slips by like the UFC wing chun fighter oh we disown him or he did not train long enough face the truth! Maby the guy had other things to do or could not afford to go, if he did go I am sure that he would have openly discussed it, even if it was weak.

AndrewS

05-18-2005, 10:01 AM

Ernie

05-18-2005, 10:03 AM

Ernie you sound like a ****ing idiot .

I love this thank you !!!!

Sammy boy
if your wing chun works go try against non wing chun and see you get your ass kick it is no secret wing chun does crappy at open tournaments a system

Do your research before you pop off , brainiac

I have been singing that song for years now . :rolleyes:
gotta llove this guy :cool:

Ultimatewingchun

05-18-2005, 10:05 AM

Really now, boys and girls...isn't it about time we put this cowardly wise ass who calls himself Samson (because he refuses to reveal his true identity)...on our collective IGNORE list???

Everybody around here knows that Ernie is no "idiot"...

This guy Samson has no balls and no respect for anybody.

Let's IGNORE him!

Ernie

05-18-2005, 10:06 AM

Samson,

you're in LA? Why not catch up with me or with Ernie and spar a little? You won't have to travel far.

Everyone-

this was basically a sparring session in the gym. Talking trash about who tapped who, or who owned who in sparring considered bullsh*t by most people I know who do spar regularly. If you want to know what happens at one of these things, go. If you want to know what happens to a Wing Chun guy in an open tournament, go pay for the ticket or the video.

Andrew

Hey Big Drew !
this guys a fraud , but if he wants to come and play i'm down and i promise i won't use 1 ounce of wing chun :D

Ps. thanks for the grapefruit sized lump on my shin yopu big b*stard , i haven't had one of those since my Thai days :D good work out bro

sihing

05-18-2005, 11:37 AM

James -You can deny it all you want, but where you came from has a huge influence on how you do things

Sorry again partner i don't follow lineage , the idea of that makes me laugh , i have come across to many highly skilled fighters to put *blind faith* in any one man or one mans process ,

that's just stupid !

I just find good coaches and good people to work with and pass the same suggestion to any one i train , it's a personal journey not a cookie cutter process

and the more you get out in the world instead of listening to what other people do the more you will see [ you meaning everyone not just you ]

and that's why i respect these guys if they want to keep it hush , they walked we didn't :p

If lineage has no meaning then the names Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung. Moy Yat or Bruce Lee for that matter would not be heard of today. Lineage is history and it does have it's place in how we think about our Martial Arts and how we train it. Wong Shun Leung has his own forum for pete sake, so if lineage means nothing to you then why would you frequent such a place and recommend it to others? Lineage is not about "BLINDLY" following anothers ways, it is a reference to the past and how things were done. It is a reference to quality and heritage, not a cult following for everyone to bow down to. Even JKD's top exponents refer to their lineage, as Vunak does every time he pays homage to Inosanto or Lee skills. I recommend that people, in the beginning, follow someone's elses ways when that person has already achieved what you want to achieve, that way you get there faster than all alone. After awhile you will develop you own individuality and path, and from there do what you want to do. If that means go out on your own, great, or if that means staying with your teacher and helping something grow, then that's great too. To each their own....

James

AndrewS

05-18-2005, 11:49 AM

Alright Ernie, you use no Wing Chun at all, and I'll be a good boy with a man/wu and move like I've got a stick up my *ss, and promise not to do any bodylocks, and . . . right. What's Wing Chun again? I keep forgetting.

That was an absolute blast last night, BTW. We probably should get in the habit of wearing shin guards, though.

Andrew

Ernie

05-18-2005, 02:12 PM

James
If lineage has no meaning then the names Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung. Moy Yat or Bruce Lee for that matter would not be heard of today

--good marketing and fantasy fu, people love to live through other peoples accomplishments and pretend that there, there own = (

. Lineage is history and it does have its place in how we think about our Martial Arts and how we train it.
--- maybe yours not mine I could careless if all the’ names were erased from time, won’t effect a **** thing on how people fight today

Wong Shun Leung has his own forum for Pete sake, so if lineage means nothing to you then why would you frequent such a place and recommend it to others?
--- because I know and have trained with the guys there , there open minded and care more for results then anything else , sure there are a few guys buying into the cool aid , but nothing compared to most other places !

Lineage is not about "BLINDLY" following another’s ways, it is a reference to the past and how things were done. It is a reference to quality and heritage, not a cult following for everyone to bow down to. Even JKD's top exponents refer to their lineage, as Vunak does every time he pays homage to Inosanto or Lee skills.
--- but he tested and refined his own skills and teaches his own way , he gave props to the immediate source not a history lesson , each man will be different , unless of course he is a robot void of a original thought =)

Drew -
no doubt , rap with you latter man