The collarbone’s offensive intention (dead giveaway)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

The elbows and the keens are the slowest joints on the body, that’s why so many instructors teaches their students too watch those two joints, which in some cases is very hard to do, especially if your opponent is faster and much more aggressive then you are, it will be even harder too watch them (elbows, keens) when stepping backwards . Now if you have that stone killer mentality and if you have that forward momentum working for you, and your opponent is then moving backwards, you can still get in close enough considering you might have to take a shot or two, but that's soppy work for me. Attack the attack so you can get a jump on your opponent’s offensives structure with power. Well the elbow joint runs up to the shoulder joint, which is pretty much connected to the shoulder blade and collarbone. Its true that you get your power from the floor, but to get any real power out of your strike the shoulder blade should move a little forward, when that happens the collarbone will move and will have some forward motion or intention on it. The collarbone moves quicker then the elbow or hands does but is easier too see, so therefore the hand will not travel no more then 2-3 inches tops before the shoulder blade moves. If you do not step backwards or fight from a distance, you will have a very good jump on your opponent’s structure. Think about it, give it a try and I would love too hear how you see offensive intentions. Thanks

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[sihing]

Only people I know of that watch the elbows/knees are TWC people and those that have come from them, and compared to the combined WC community that's only 5-7% tops?. If they are the slowest joints and are connected to the fist and foot why watch anything else? Slow moving things is what you want to watch in the first place, if they help you in your interpretation of the opponents movements. The collarbone will move but not enough to give you any indication of specifically what is coming at you. In elbow/knee watching you can specifically know what is coming towards you, whether it is a hook or ridge hand it is still round, watching the elbow will tell you its round and to what degree also. After a while it becomes second nature, but in the beginning it is tough I must say, that's why there are drills to improve more quickly this most important attribute.

James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

sihing said:

If they are the slowest joints and are connected to the fist and foot why watch anything else? Slow moving things is what you want to watch in the first place

Good post; Because the collarbone will move first, way before that punch could make any striking distance too harm you, that’s when your eye sensitivity should work for you and it is very easy too see, that’s if your first intention is not too run away.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[sihing]

Yes, the movement may start from the collarbone, a indication per say, then one may focus more on the elbow. By watching the elbow/knee, it is just a general focus, not with great intensity. My thing with the shoulder or collarbone, center of chest watching is that in WC we don't move those things with any great magnitude, as compared to karate guys or boxing guys, due to our non telegraphic movement and ability to use our whole bodies instead of twists or turns to generate power. When I teach a intro lesson for a new person that's one of the advantages I always point out to them, that our movements are non-telegraphic and hard to read, therefore they surprise the recipient.

I think as one becomes a professional/long term pratiticoner with MA they learn to adapt and notice the smallest movement in a opponent, and it is only us holding back to be nice that causes us danger at times. At the advanced stages once you see forward intention/movement you can charge forward to create the bridge and flow from there.

James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

sihing said:

Yes, the movement may start from the collarbone, a indication per say, then one may focus more on the elbow.


why not jump on the first indication of intent for it is there, why not take advantage of it? If you jump on that, the elbow will not start or have any motion, jamming the technique. why wait on the elbow or secondary wave of indication giving that tecchnique more time to form?

Ali


sihing said:

Yes, the movement may start from the collarbone,


This way you can simply cut your traveling time distance in half if you attack that first.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
sihing said:

Yes, the movement may start from the collarbone, a indication per say, then one may focus more on the elbow.


why not jump on the First indication of intent for it is there, why not take advantage of it? If you jump on that, the elbow will not start or have any motion, jamming his technique. why wait on the elbow or secondary wave of indication giving that tecchnique more time to form?

Ali


sihing said:

Yes, the movement may start from the collarbone,


This way you can simply cut your traveling time distance in half if you attack that first.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Yes, the JKD principal of Intercepting Fist or Foot. Ideally this is the ultimate way when reacting, I agree here. When one has obtained a high level of skill this is where it is at, but there is a progression and one has to walk before they can run.

At a stage in training, when it is all a part of you, and when the skills are called for you will simplify everything that you have learned and react at that instant, with whatever tools you possess. If your tools are not as sharp as the other guys then you will have problems. WC provides you with the tools that stay sharp for a long time, like those kitchen knives they sell on late night TV, lol. Efficiency and Effectiveness, are what it is all about and reacting on the first movement is too, but sometimes the indicators can cause us to do the wrong things so I prefer to fine tune the "radar" and tune into something that is more specific. I agree with you on most parts Ali, intial movement from the opponent is a good time to move forward, but it is still not enough indication by watching the collarbone to tell what that movement is.

James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

sihing said:

My thing with the shoulder or collarbone, center of chest watching is that in WC we don't move those things with any great magnitude, as compared to karate guys or boxing guys, due to our non telegraphic movement and ability to use our whole bodies instead of twists or turns to generate power.


That’s why we watch the collarbone, because most good practitioner don’t telegraph their techniques. so you must find a point where you can get a jump on our opponents structure.

Ali


sihing said:

My thing with the shoulder or collarbone, center of chest watching is that in WC we don't move those things with any great magnitude,


It doesn’t make difference how much the collarbone moves, it is a indication of intent, even if it is a fake move, by attacking and using the collarbone theory, he will only fake himself out, because your entry is based on the movement of the collarbone, which gives away his intention way before the fist can get within striking distance.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by sihing
Yes, the JKD principal of Intercepting Fist or Foot. Ideally this is the ultimate way when reacting, I agree here. When one has obtained a high level of skill this is where it is at, but there is a progression and one has to walk before they can run.

At a stage in training, when it is all a part of you, and when the skills are called for you will simplify everything that you have learned and react at that instant, with whatever tools you possess. If your tools are not as sharp as the other guys then you will have problems. WC provides you with the tools that stay sharp for a long time, like those kitchen knives they sell on late night TV, lol. Efficiency and Effectiveness, are what it is all about and reacting on the first movement is too, but sometimes the indicators can cause us to do the wrong things so I prefer to fine tune the "radar" and tune into something that is more specific. I agree with you on most parts Ali, intial movement from the opponent is a good time to move forward, but it is still not enough indication by watching the collarbone to tell what that movement is.

James


Great post: if the collarbone moves way before the hand can get to you, then I think that’s plenty of time and enough indication. I really like that last post a lot.

Ali Hamad Rahim.



detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
sihing said:

My thing with the shoulder or collarbone, center of chest watching is that in WC we don't move those things with any great magnitude, as compared to karate guys or boxing guys, due to our non telegraphic movement and ability to use our whole bodies instead of twists or turns to generate power.


That’s why we watch the collarbone, because most good practitioner don’t telegraph their techniques. so you must find a point where you can get jump on our opponents structure.

Ali


sihing said:

My thing with the shoulder or collarbone, center of chest watching is that in WC we don't move those things with any great magnitude,


It doesn’t make difference how much the collarbone moves, it is a indication of intent, even if it is a fake move, by attacking and using the collarbone theory, he will only fake himself out, because your entry is based on the movement of the collarbone, which gives away his intention way before the fist can get within striking distance.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Yes that is true but still you can't fake a elbow/knee ( a slight movement from natural guard position is not a fake), but you can a collarbone. If your elbow is by your side and you raise it, it is a indication of forward movement, whether straight or round, you go for it to trap ( to a certain point per say, you wouldn't ever put your hand below the solar pelxus to trap a arm/elbow), while simultaneously striking. A forward movement of the collarbone doesn't necessarily mean forward movement of the limb (this could be a great fake), which is the real weapon.

I can see your point though Ali, to pay a certain amount of attention to the collarbone area and the indication it gives of intent. Good points on your part..

James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

sihing said:

Yes that is true but still you can't fake a elbow/knee ( a slight movement from natural guard position is not a fake), but you can a collarbone. If your elbow is by your side and you raise it, it is a indication of forward movement, whether straight or round, you go for it to trap ( to a certain point per say, you wouldn't ever put your hand below the solar pelxus to trap a arm/elbow), while simultaneously striking. A forward movement of the collarbone doesn't necessarily mean forward movement of the limb (this could be a great fake), which is the real weapon.

I can see your point though Ali, to pay a certain amount of attention to the collarbone area and the indication it gives of intent. Good points on your part..

James



For the most part I was talking about attacking out of the mon sao position (fight ready position hand up facing each other) If you make a fake move and if your opponent has a true fighting mentality, he will just come in anyway leaving you holding the bag, day late dollar short. I understand what you are saying also, great chat we had there. thanks

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

By not attacking the first intent and watching other parts of the body, your opponent’s technqnic will unfold closer and within your offensive structure, putting you in a defensive position.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Vajramusti]

James sez:

Yes that is true but still you can't fake a elbow/knee ( a slight movement from natural guard position is not a fake),
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((By whose definition? If one wants to- not much needed in wc-
one can fake with any limb, parts thereof, digits and other things))

[SAAMAG]

Sounds like what you're talking about is simply one of many signals that any given person would give off just prior to attacking or right at the inception of the attack. These "cues" are what most good fighters are trained over time to see, but not directly, but rather with peripheal(sp?) vison.

I always look at ones center, anything coming at me is address using peripheal vision or my sense of touch depending on what range the attack was made from. I never look at limbs or hands or feet because they are deceptive and elusive. I'd rather affix my direct attention towards my target, the center, and use secondary vision for everything else in the way of my goal.

If that makes sense.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Sounds like what you're talking about is simply one of many signals that any given person would give off just prior to attacking or right at the inception of the attack. These "cues" are what most good fighters are trained over time to see, but not directly, but rather with peripheal(sp?) vison.

I always look at ones center, anything coming at me is address using peripheal vision or my sense of touch depending on what range the attack was made from. I never look at limbs or hands or feet because they are deceptive and elusive. I'd rather affix my direct attention towards my target, the center, and use secondary vision for everything else in the way of my goal.

If that makes sense.

Good post:

Emmanuel Stewart taught me this concept, watching the movement of the collarbone, because that way you really see the whole body while sparring. In my early days as a club fighter; it always worked for me in sparring and in the streets also. It blows my mind because it really works.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Peripheral ( or adverted) vision is really more sensible than the direct vision we use most of the times.I use it with my telescope to watch at diffuse and fuzzy celestial objects like galaxies that are almost as black as the sky surrounding them.You actually see more when you don't look directly at the subject.
IMO,looking (not concentrating)at a certain central region on the opponent body is a good way to turn on that adverted vision that can percieve more suttle movements than the normal vision witch tend to fix too much on details and can overfeed the cognitive counciousness thus...(;) ) slowing down the responsive or active actions.
Then we simply have to "Hit the shadow" ;)

[rogue]

Good posts Ali. I'm a karate barbarian and that's our indicator that someone is going to do something. But like OJ we don't stare at it.


Sihing wrote: The collarbone will move but not enough to give you any indication of specifically what is coming at you. For the most part,who cares what specifically is about to be coming at you? You start moving and attack before the punch or kick turns into much of anything.

[sihing]

Originally posted by rogue
Good posts Ali. I'm a karate barbarian and that's our indicator that someone is going to do something. But like OJ we don't stare at it.

For the most part,who cares what specifically is about to be coming at you? You start moving and attack before the punch or kick turns into much of anything.

Boy, if fighting was just that easy, it would only take about one week of lessons to learn one simple attack and that's all we all would ever need, right?

Again, its the limbs that do 99.9% of the damage, and as Ali already stated in a previous post the elbow and knee joints are the slowest moving, so logic would dictate that you would watch the slowest moving things as a indicator at pre contact stage of what you opponent is up to, but sometimes logic and common sense is not so logical and common on this forum.

James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

rogue:

Good posts Ali. I'm a karate barbarian and that's our indicator that someone is going to do something. But like OJ we don't stare at it.


quote:
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Sihing wrote: The collarbone will move but not enough to give you any indication of specifically what is coming at you.
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For the most part,who cares what specifically is about to be coming at you? You start moving and attack before the punch or kick turns into much of


That’s true you should not stare at anything, just by watching the collarbone it kicks in your peripheral vision so that way you can see everything, and will get a jump on his first intent.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[rogue]

Boy, if fighting was just that easy, it would only take about one week of lessons to learn one simple attack and that's all we all would ever need, right?
Well it's not about one attack but the idea that you do some kind of attack before they get theirs off. The idea of intercepting.


Again, its the limbs that do 99.9% of the damage, and as Ali already stated in a previous post the elbow and knee joints are the slowest moving, so logic would dictate that you would watch the slowest moving things as a indicator at pre contact stage of what you opponent is up to, but sometimes logic and common sense is not so logical and common on this forum. I'm slow so if I can get that split second by seeing the move in the shoulder area than I'll take it. You don't need to watch the elbow since you should be able to detect any movement of the arm. James I'm interested in how you look at the elbows and knees. What range are you at and are you dropping your head?

[sihing]

Originally posted by rogue
Well it's not about one attack but the idea that you do some kind of attack before they get theirs off. The idea of intercepting.

I'm slow so if I can get that split second by seeing the move in the shoulder area than I'll take it. You don't need to watch the elbow since you should be able to detect any movement of the arm. James I'm interested in how you look at the elbows and knees. What range are you at and are you dropping your head?

The problem IMO with the shoulder and collarbone is that you can move them without any forward movement of the limbs. With the elbows and knees you can see if its real or fake, just by learning how to recognize distance and controlling it. Also, when you watch the elbow you have better peripheral vision of the legs and knees, to which you would switch to watching the knee when they kick.

You can do this at all ranges but the idea of elbow and knee watching is best done in the pre-contact stage and contact stages of combat. The are just things we use to help us interpret or read our opponents. Nothing is fool proof but when you watch to high up on an opponents body you have a harder time seeing the lower limbs and what they are up to. And it is not a intense focus on the elbow or knee, just a generalize watch.

James

[Stevo]

I've never tried specifically looking at the collarbone - is it easy to see it move when it's covered by clothing?

[rogue]

James, I understand about the fakes and it's a good point. Maybe because I train in a style that uses a lot of kicks and knees I don't have trouble figuring out what my opponent is going to do without looking at their legs. I have been KTFD by some people that can kick from weird angles from real close.

Steve, for me it's the collar bone, shoulders and neck area. It's also about watching for shifts in the body.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by sihing
...but still you can't fake a elbow/knee ( a slight movement from natural guard position is not a fake), but you can a collarbone. Have you any idea just how deranged this is sounding now? I mean from a position of some objectivity on this thread... Michel, do you know this guy in a professional context!? :p ;) :D

You're a talking about people not being able to fake a movement from an elbow or a knee, which is a complete load of bollocks.

And then you go on to say that people will fake a move from the collarbone which is also complete ****ing fantasy. You need to get away from your ****ing computer son, and do some more training!

I can't believe this!



On a more constructive note, I would pretty much agree with Vankuen, Old Jong and Rogue at the same time. It doesn't really matter, but if you haven't developed your radar yet, it is better to use peripheral vision on central mass, shifts in body or even (gasp) not looking directly (eg, looking slightly off one shoulder, at the Adam's apple, or between the eyes).

Feel free to rip that opinion to shreds, I'm safe in the knowledge that it's not as crazy as what I've just read!:D