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YongChun
12-13-2004, 12:54 PM
We had another Thai boxing seminar for those Wing Chun people who were interested. Not all of our members like that stuff. The cost was only $10. The teacher drilled us on the four basic strikes which include the punch, the elbow, the knee and the shin. The whole body is behind each of the four strikes. Those people holding the heavy-duty leather pads could feel the intense shock delivered from each and every kind of strike. Thai footwork was very agile, quick and mobile. Weighting is on the front balls of the feet. After every strike, the defensive posture is quickly recovered to for maximum protection and so that a barrage of other strikes can follow up immediately. All action is very close.

The teacher said that Thai boxing has constantly evolved according to results from actual ring combat. Techniques are adjusted, footwork and angles are changed etc. He said traditional martial arts like to preserve the past and not change but Thai boxing doesn’t agree with this philosophy where results in the ring are what count most.

The punch was likened to a hammer. The mechanics is quite different from the Wing Chun punch. The punch twists even more than the Karate punch. At the same time the face is protected much more by the other hand and the chin is hidden away to prevent a serious counterstrike.

The elbow was likened to a knife slash because often the resulting injury is similar. In action the elbow is similar to some WC people’s usage in the Bil Jee form however the whole body is behind it and the face is protected from a counter strike. There are also a variety of other elbows used and they have various interesting elbow attack and elbow counter drills with a nice flow to them but the teacher didn’t elaborate on those. The teacher sometimes used kind of an outside Pak sau, which immediately flowed into an elbow or multiple elbow strikes.

The knee was likened to a spear in that the knee thrusts into the person and not upward where it would miss. Sometimes it is combined with the neck pull or to pull down on the defending hands. You could hear the power of all strikes from the sound the strikes made on the pads.

The shin was likened to a steel pipe which smashes right through you like a baseball bat as opposed to the muscle delivered snap kicks used in Taekwondo or Hapkido (his previous arts). These kicks provided the most powerful forces however the elbow resulted in the most serious injuries and deaths.

Then there were various attack and counter attack drills to put the tools into a preparation for sparring action. The teacher used some Escrima sticks to teach students to block the roundhouse kicks with the shins directly facing into the force. At a minimum black belt equivalent level the student must break two baseball bats with the roundhouse kick. The recovery after this kick was quite fast. All recoveries to protected position were fast. Strikes come repetitively very fast. I training on the back maybe you will throw a hundred knee strikes in rapid succession. The same goes for the other strikes. A lot of training is on the abdominal muscles. The abdomen and hip power all the movements.

The teacher then holds the pads at various angles to indicate to the student to either punch or elbow, or throw a knee strike or a roundhouse kick. Each student does this intensively for 2 to 3 minutes. For those who haven’t done it before, even two minutes feels like you have just run a hundred yard dash. From the outside it doesn’t look that bad but once you try it it’s a whole different thing to throw out a combination of power strikes solid for 3 minutes. For a start two minutes is good. In training they will go several three-minute rounds like that. The teacher may hold up one pad to hit while attacking you with the other or while throwing a round kick in etc. to teach people to keep covered up. Students tend to drop their hands which could result in an immediate knockout in the real event.

Even though protection is used in some matches in Korea some serious injuries can result. The teacher broke various bones here and there because of the extreme power delivery. One of his students received a pinpoint accurate kick to the solar plexus and died as a result. After that the law clamped down on some of these Thai matches in Korea.

The teacher said there were two streams in Thai boxing in Korea, one was for the professional fighter and the other was for the hobbyists or teachers. The training was the same in both but one group fights regularly and the other doesn’t. Those people who have a career and education don’t take the fighter stream because there is little money in it but a lot of risk. High school students with no jobs tended to chose the professional route.

Good fighting skill was generally developed within six months of hard training. In Korea people who want to fight learn Thai boxing. Even with a 4th degree blackbelt in Hapkido and many years of Taekwondo this teacher didn’t trust those arts totally in the real fights he had in Korea. However elite fighters in the army did use a combination of Hapkido and Thai boxing these days. After he learned Thai boxing he became very confident in his fighting skills.

The teacher did say there was a place for traditional martial arts. He felt Thai boxing was excellent for fighting but was missing some of the values and other aspects that traditional arts develop. He said just fighting for fighting’s sake is empty. In the future he said he still valued to train in some kind of traditional art for the other benefits these arts provide.

Ray

reneritchie
12-13-2004, 01:02 PM
Awesome! Thanks, Ray!

planetwc
12-13-2004, 01:58 PM
Ray,

I'd like to commend you for continuing to explore other arts to see what their strengths are and to gain firsthand experience in training them with a competant teacher. It is something I think MORE Wing Chun schools would be well advised to do. I'm glad to see someone in our lineage doing this, just as similar things are being done in TWC, WT, EBMAS, WSL, etc.

It should also give quite a reality check in terms of what great conditioning is all about and how training with that as part of your curriculum can help your students be better prepared and more physically fit.

Any thoughts to including some of their drills into your school's training program? It should provide a nice counterbalance to Wing Chun and allow your folks at the advanced level to learn to deal out AND deal with these kinds of Muay Thai attacks.

Are you going to buy some of those pads and start those kicking/kneeing drills?

Now all you need to do is host some BJJ guys over to cover all the ranges! :)
I'm sure Rene could hook you up on that front. eh?

Great Job!!!!!

YongChun
12-13-2004, 03:30 PM
I think the Thai fighting is very good. Whether a seminar is a good idea or not is hard to say because in part it depends on the teacher. Two people can say the same things but one will put it accross in a condescending arrogant way and the other will put it across in a genuine effort to help and to share knowledge. The first way is likely to get rejected even if the information is the same.

This particular teacher was good because he had the skills but he also had a high level of skill in a traditional art so that he could compare for us the differences. This guy was very educated and runs some computer company in Korea. So that and his good personality makes him a pleasure to learn from. He wasn't that big but his hits felt like something coming from a large 250 pound guy.

So I think the pad work and training is very useful as a minimum. At least for fitness and exercise it's good. Everyone should try the 2 to 3 minute round stuff. But it takes some training to learn how to do the job of the pad guy and it's best to have two heavy duty leather pads. The pads looked like about 7 or 8 inches across and as long as one's forearm. They felt heavy. There were about three straps running across them that you slide your arm into with the top one a firm leather thing to hold onto.

So the idea of doing it is good. Now the actual thing a Wing Chun guy might can be different if you translate it all over to Wing Chun. I think Wing Chun is still very good but training methods from some of these other arts would enhance the training of anyone who cares to do that kind of thing. Again not everyone likes to get physical, a lot of people do a lazier version of Wing Chun and even then you can't prove they can't fight but I think the Thai type of training would help anyone even if yuou look at it from the point of fitness only. Holding the pads for a Thai guy is a good experience to feel what real force feels like and to watch how the hits come in from all kinds of angles with no telegraphing.

More later.. it's coffee time.. someone asked me to have a coffee.

Ray

wing nut
12-13-2004, 03:47 PM
I own a pair of thai pads like Ray was describing. I like using them more than a bag. The conditioning you get on your shins is pretty good because they are solid. As for holding the pair for your partner, because of the wieght.

Matrix
12-13-2004, 06:10 PM
Hey Ray,
It seems that ever since that Wing Chun Sifu from the "other lineage" gave that seminar last month, that you've been heavy on the Thai boxing. I hope you find what you're looking for.

Peace

YongChun
12-13-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Matrix
Hey Ray,
It seems that ever since that "other Wing Chun guy" gave that seminar last month, that you've been heavy on the Thai boxing. I hope you find what you're lookng for.

Peace

Actually I am just heavy into Wing Chun. One student here has been learning from a Thai teacher who is going back to Korea later this months. So I asked the guy to bring his teacher over just to expose us all to something different. In the 1980's out club used to be seminar bums where we got anyone who was good at anything to teach us something. For the most part it didn't change what we trained in Wing Chun too much, it merely opened our eyes to other things to appreciate other arts, other people, other ways of doing things. Each thing was good input to re-evaluate Wing Chun to see if we should change the training somehow or adopt other training methods. Often times no one would be interested really to train in something else. I also thought to get a BJJ guy to teach us something but some people have bad backs and don't want to do that, other people juts don't like grappling and the BJJ guys don't like to share their art up here with non BJJ people. Also I know enough wrestling stuff anyway that we could go a ways with that. But most students just like the Wing Chun training. In the late 80's I taught someone who taught Wing Chun and Thai boxing. He used to get a top Thai teacher there all the time. He told me lately his students really didn't enjoy the Thai stuff that much and just liked doing the normal Wing Chun. That club does do tournament fighting on a regular basis.

In that story of the student getting killed , I remember in the early 80's my teacher at that time told me in Holland his Taekwondo teacher got a Thai boxer in the same way with a pin point accurate strike to the solar plexus. The classical Wing Chun posture closes off the centre but the Thai posture is open there. The Wing Chun classical pose has a weakness in the flanks , whereas the Thai posture has a weakness up the center. The Preying Mantis Classical pose also uses an open posture to invite in a center attack but the arms are extended out more than in the Thai case so maybe in theory they have both a flan kweakness and a center weakness. But in practice to take advantage of such a weakness is never easy because postures change, fighters are mobile and fighters are aware of their weak points and try to compensate with appropriate movements. Every position has strong points and weak points.

The Thais have a lot of power but then so do some Wing Chun people and so do some Karate people. The breaking champs are usually Karate people exept in some rare cases where iron palm guys break coconuts or kill horses. Then having all that power in the latter cases doesn't always mean they can use that power. For the most part the Thais can deliver that power. I noticed in MMA events a lot of people do have some Thai training but they can't always pull that stuff off either.

I think just exposure to other arts is good even Karate. The good guys in that are no slouches either and can't be underestimated. I wouldn't underestimate a good Tai Chi fighter either.

So from the Thai stuff the pad training is good. But it takes up a lot of time on the instructor's part. He can be busy with just one student for 15 or 20 minutes running through all the strikes and combos and doing pad type sparring. So it isn't that practical to do with large classes or even in classes with 10 students. Maybe if you have lots of expensive pads and all students do it together it can work. Dan Inosanto and some of the Jeet Kune Do clubs seem to have lots of equipment. I guess Thai schools have a lot of stuff too.

For those who fight with Wing Chun, it's good to expose yourself to other arts who fight if that is possible but I think it's a nice thing to do but not a mandatory thing to do in order to learn Wing Chun. Most animals learn to fight without exposing themselves to all the other kinds of animals. They just do their stuff and in a strange circumstance against a strange animal learn to adapt quickly during the fight and know to flee or to fight.
If they are unlucky they die. If they practiced against the animal that killed them they would still probably die. Any person or animal has physical limits. Because we are intellectual beings, we like to see how far we can stretch our limits and we like to see how many creative ways we can fight.

The Thai method does conflict with the Wing Chun method because the mechanics of force generation is different. But the idea of using the whole body doesn't conflict with the Wing Chun ideas of using the whole body such as in the turn and punch and with the linear step in and punch.

Some people like to keep to pure classical Wing Chun and juts work at it until it works for them. Other people, the non - purists, don't care about this and say that whatever they can make work is OK for them. We all have different tastes.

I think those who think and compare too much with the MMA people would be best to just study those things though then later on when they get tired of that stuff or their body can't take it anymore then they can return back to the Wing Chun way. Competitive combat in any classical art just needs a small subset of the whole art to be effective. When the repertoire is too large then one cannot be an effective fighter against skilled fighters from other arts. The Thai guy was very effective using just four techniques. ButI noticed they had a lot of subtle ways to use those strikes and to set them up in the same way a Western boxer would who in theory just has jab, right cross, uppercut and hook punch.

So it depends on what you want and what you are looking for and what you enjoy.

Ray


Ray

Matrix
12-13-2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by YongChun
So it depends on what you want and what you are looking for and what you enjoy. Ray,
I couldn't agree more.
Best of Luck,

couch
12-14-2004, 08:59 AM
I couldn't agree more, also.

My Sifu's friend who is a very good karate practicioner comes over to train with us from time to time. He is very fast and his technique is very clean in the sense of timing and precision. Many times he can blast out a technique faster than my eye can see and when I attack him, he has the fierocity of a tiger and dumps me on my a$$.

Also, at college, I have a tai chi teacher who also is teaching my TCM classes. I've tangled with him from time to time as well, and after 13 years in tai chi, his technique is very clean and I find it hard to get around his hands. (this results to kicks to the groin - hey...I'm in it to win it. :))

I remember training at my previous Wing Chun school and having a TKD guy come in to train with us. Unfortunately, he didn't stay long but his kicks were like the wind. You couldn't see them coming. After all the "art-bashing" I had done in the past, I quickly learned to be humbled and learn from other people's experiences.

All I know is that I'd rather have the above mentioned people on my side when it comes time to fight. I really believe we can learn so much from other arts. Some people argue that wing chun only defends against wing chun...and that may be true in some kwoons. But it is important to start with a foundation and it is up to the practicioner to look outside the box and make wing chun work for them.

I look forward to more of Ray's reviews.

Sincerely,
Couch

kj
12-14-2004, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by couch
But it is important to start with a foundation and it is up to the practicioner to look outside the box and make wing chun work for them.

Well said. I don't know how it could be otherwise.


I look forward to more of Ray's reviews.

Me too.

Regards,
- kj

RedJunkRebel
12-14-2004, 02:25 PM
Thanks Ray. You have a great outlook on training and an eloquent way of describing things.

SevenStar
12-16-2004, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by YongChun

The elbow was likened to a knife slash because often the resulting injury is similar. In action the elbow is similar to some WC people’s usage in the Bil Jee form however the whole body is behind it and the face is protected from a counter strike. There are also a variety of other elbows used and they have various interesting elbow attack and elbow counter drills with a nice flow to them but the teacher didn’t elaborate on those. The teacher sometimes used kind of an outside Pak sau, which immediately flowed into an elbow or multiple elbow strikes.

there are several elbows - cross, diagonal, supward, stabbing, spinning, downward, jumping...

The knee was likened to a spear in that the knee thrusts into the person and not upward where it would miss. Sometimes it is combined with the neck pull or to pull down on the defending hands. You could hear the power of all strikes from the sound the strikes made on the pads.

there are several of these also - long, short, skip, jumping, horizontal, diagonal or "slapping"...

maybe he'll talk about them at a future seminar?

Then there were various attack and counter attack drills to put the tools into a preparation for sparring action. The teacher used some Escrima sticks to teach students to block the roundhouse kicks with the shins directly facing into the force. At a minimum black belt equivalent level the student must break two baseball bats with the roundhouse kick. The recovery after this kick was quite fast. All recoveries to protected position were fast. Strikes come repetitively very fast. I training on the back maybe you will throw a hundred knee strikes in rapid succession. The same goes for the other strikes. A lot of training is on the abdominal muscles. The abdomen and hip power all the movements.

The teacher then holds the pads at various angles to indicate to the student to either punch or elbow, or throw a knee strike or a roundhouse kick. Each student does this intensively for 2 to 3 minutes. For those who haven’t done it before, even two minutes feels like you have just run a hundred yard dash. From the outside it doesn’t look that bad but once you try it it’s a whole different thing to throw out a combination of power strikes solid for 3 minutes. For a start two minutes is good. In training they will go several three-minute rounds like that. The teacher may hold up one pad to hit while attacking you with the other or while throwing a round kick in etc. to teach people to keep covered up. Students tend to drop their hands which could result in an immediate knockout in the real event.

with the exception of having to break baseball bats, this similar to what we do - good stuff.

Even though protection is used in some matches in Korea some serious injuries can result. The teacher broke various bones here and there because of the extreme power delivery. One of his students received a pinpoint accurate kick to the solar plexus and died as a result. After that the law clamped down on some of these Thai matches in Korea.

unfortunately, things like that can happen. I've broken someone's ribs before, as has my coach. When I was in high school, a thai friend of mine said that his dad had seen people killed from a roundhouse to the neck area in thailand. I've seen video of fighter manu ntoh breaking someone's hip - that just looked excruciatingly painful...



Excellent posts, ray. Keep up the good work!