Elbow Destructions

[EmptyCup]

elbow destructions are kali in nature and have been adopted by many Jeet Kune Do concepts practioners such as Paul Vunak, who learned under Dan Inosanto. I never thought they would work in real situations but one of my friends attended a Vunak seminar in Chicago during the summer and came back raving about the guy.

Anyways, there were a few weird things that Vunak taught such as biting the opponent's nipple to get out of the guard position, running towards your opponent chain punching away as a way to close the distance, and elbow destructions.

It was the elbow destructions that interested me, so I asked another friend of mine, who has experience in many different martial arts and JKD stuff, to show me how it was applied. My opinion changed...in the past, I thought they were just elbow attacks aimed at incoming blows - but I was wrong. They are pak saus that direct the opponents hand towards your upraised elbow. Much easier to pull off than I had at first wrongly assumed. They are also used on high roundhouse kicks.

Anyways, just wanted the opinions of those on this forum about what they think of the elbow destruction technique...do you think they work against opponents, are there any weaknesses you see, and most importantly, should they be added to a Wing Chun practioners repertoire? If executed correctly, they destroy an opponent's attacking hand and cause significant psychological damage during a fight.

[mun hung]

Biting nipples? Sounds kinky!

I usually do that to get into the guard position! ;)

[EmptyCup]

haha :)

I do that just for kicks!!!

[BeiKongHui]

I too have been shown elbow destructions & running chain punches by one of Paul Vunaks instructors. I see the elbow destruction as something that could very well work but I've found it to be quite hard to get it to work right when things are moving fast. As for the running chains, that scares the crap out of some people and they'll start flinching and backing away. A good swift kick to the knee will usually stop the puncher though.

I really think the biting thing is good training as gross as it may seem but I also worry about diseases if I was to ever have to really do that. The gaurd would probably become obselete if they allowed you to chew your opponents nipple of in the UFC! ;)

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[EmptyCup]

Yeah the nipple thing is gross...some guy I mentioned it to suggested that the neck would be a better target for a bite!!! at least most people have a shirt or top on so a bit nipple would at least have some sort of material protecting you...neck would make you a frickkin vampire!

yeah, the running chains would work against inexperienced fighters but against ones who know better, you're opening yourself up completely. Which is why I'm surprised considering all those super ads in Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu talking about Vunak's perfect system...

[Vankuen]

I learned about the elbow destruction concept from many different places, even before I saw it in JKD.

I always thought its been a good technique for the aggressive fighter. I would think though, that if you're fighting a person with very very quick hands that its a tactic best left alone.

But if you can intercept with pak sau, you pretty much got it, guide it into the tai, gwai, or pai jang.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

[Roy D. Anthony]

Since I don't know you, please don't take offense to my question. Have you learned Biu Jee yet?

[EmptyCup]

none taken Roy :)

but my profile does say I have done Wing Chun for over a decade so if the answer was no, then there must be something very wrong with me, or my sifu ;)

why? elbow destructions are very different than the elbow smashes in the biu tze form...in elbow destructions the elbow is passive and remains relatively fixed...it is the pak sau that guides/forces the attacking hand into the stationary elbow.

[EmptyCup]

Roy, I noticed that you are a sifu...and that you are in TO as well! Do you mind telling me where you teach in Toronto and what lineage?

Thanks.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Well in Wing Chun, the forms are only guidelines. This is what has been taught by my Sifu and many others.
How you use it depends on you. When is Wing Chun yours? When you thank your Sifu for his guidance and carry on.
My Sifu is Sunny Tang, who taught me both Classical and non Classical Wing Chun.
Just my understanding. no offense intended.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I teach both at Ryerson University and The Bloor JCC, at Spadina and Bloor.

[EmptyCup]

ahhh, i see! so you're the teacher in the mysterious Jewish wing chun place :)

so you know Whipping Hand?

btw, what do you mean by classical and non-classical? this is beginning to sound like William Cheung jargon to me... ;)

[Roy D. Anthony]

As a matter of fact, it's not so mysterious. I never kept that from anyone.

My Sigung Moy Yat, mentioned that the beginning of non classical Wing Chun, begins when you learn Biu Jee. I am Unfamiliar with William Cheung's Theories, as I have not kept up on his literature.
No offense intended here.

[This message was edited by Roy D. Anthony on 09-16-01 at 10:10 PM.]

[EmptyCup]

I guess you don't understand my references to the mysterious Jewish wing chun place...the thing is, whipping hand once mentioned a Jewish place which had wing chun lessons and everybody was curious about it....nobody had ever heard of such a place...so when i made my comment about it being mysterious, it had nothing to do with you witholding any type of information, ok? hope that clears things up :)

as for Moy Yat's comment, what did he mean by it? That the biu tze form he learned was not the classical/original version? or something else?

and stop being worried about offending me...i don't get offended that easily :) unless you always give cryptic one-liners that hint at your enormous hidden exclusive knowledge of wing chun...

[Roy D. Anthony]

Thanks for clarifying the mystery! LOL
as for you question of Moy Yat's statement on Biu Jee. No, not that Biu Jee is Non Classical. It is very classical as a part of the Wing Chun System. However it signifies the beginning of one's non classical learning. As you can see, biu jee has many maneuvres that defy the rules of Wing Chun.

How does one explain them? (However there could be Sifu's who readjusted the Biu Jee form to conform to Wing Chun rules. Therefore you may miss what I'm saying altogether.) They are explained as nonclassical movements. therefore a new understanding of the Wing Chun System.

Simply put:
Classical , Follows Rules
NON Classical, Defies the Rules.
Don't have Yin without Yang, or you are onesided. Best to have both and be a complete Wing Chun artist.

Quote:
"An artist first learns the classical Brush Strokes, at which time any art he produces is an expression of what he is learning!
Once he moves beyond the classical towards the non-classical Brush strokes, the art he produces is an expression of what he feels."
-Roy D. Anthony

[whippinghand]

"unless you always give cryptic one-liners that hint at your enormous hidden exclusive knowledge of wing chun... "

Whatchu talkin' about Willis?

[EmptyCup]

haha...so you got THAT one... ;)

[Roy D. Anthony]

Quote:
"He who arrives Dies"
-Roy D. Anthony
In other words when you reach the expert level your learning dies.
I never stop learning. :cool:

[EmptyCup]

hope you didn't think I was talking about you...I have no problem with you Roy...it's just somebody else in this forum that really gets to me

and I'm still learning too :D adding new things all the time to my wing chun base...

[Roy D. Anthony]

I didn't think you did. but thanks for clarifying for me anyhow. :)
Let me give you a hint Empty Cup.

Quote:
"No matter how good or how bad the Wing Chun is one can still learn from them."
-Sunny Tang

Quote:
"No one loses face in the face of learning."
-Roy D. Anthony