Differences in teaching adults and children.

[tanglang69]

Hello fellow mantis teachers,

To those who teach children (at what age do you start kids?). Does your children's program differ from your adult program?

How does it differ?

Do you progress them into the intricacies of praying mantis?

If your childrens program does not differ from your adult program or you teach your kids the same way you teach your adults, How many active children do you have in your school?

Everyone have a great day!

Later,
oved
tanglang69:D

[German Bai Lung]

Hello,

first (in the last years) I used to taught the children very different than adults. EG: games for warm up, in the middle and at the end. I showed them first only kicks and the 4 basics and a short summary of Kung Lek Kuen as form. Training time was 1 hour 3 times a week.

Now I after some years I recognized that kids also could spend 1,5 hour in training and don´t need games in the middle or at the end! For warm up sometimes games are ok. But nowadays they have to work on Mantis like any other students too.

Only great differences now between Kidsclass and adults yet:
Kids learn first Yi Lou Jaak Yiu Kuen (first essential) cause the form is shorter. Than Kung Lek Kuen and/or first Staff (Luk Hap Gwan).
Adults all first learn Kung Lek Kuen!
Kids just do some partnertechniques and some selfdefence. No sparring till they are at least 12!

My kids-class could be joined by children at the age of 6 till 16.
Most of the time I got 12-15 children as members. At class 8-12 are training.

And of course they have do learn Mantis: some kids now (age 10-14) learned all 12 keywords/8 basics. They learned Do Gong Kuen and two sisters learned Tou Fa San Doi Da.
The same kids learned on a seminar the Form Daan Chap Fa Kuen from Lee Kam Wing. And they both perform the form quite well!
Rant: a Student and teacher here in germany from Mr. Pels lineage learned the form at the same time and was complaining afterwards, that it was too fast and the time was too short ... :p

[sayloc]

Mr 69

I have about 40 kids enrolled.

I have a 5 to 8 year old class and a 9 to 13ish class. Want to start a 13 to 16 or 17 year old class when the enrollment can support it.

Each class gives the student the tools they need to move on to the next class.

They ussually do a 45 minute class. They do the same basics and drills as the adults. I dont try to push forms down thier throat. Just what they need to develop physically.

I always end on a positive note with a relay or something like that.

I dont teach my childrens class because my own children are in it. Just doesnt work for me.

The most important thing is to have your assistants trained. They need to know how to handle children.

I do not do basic light contact sparring. If I do somehting like that I call it what it really is "tag". They enjoy it.

I have a separate class for moderate to full contact sanshou. They can start that class at 8, depending on thier maturity. This is the most popular class. It does get a little scary. They are developing some good techniques and are starting to knock the crap out of each other. I dont allow contact to the head at this point.

I dont think that teaching the children is much worse than teaching the adults. I think the kids listen better. I have also found that the adults still have the same problems they had when they were kids, just bigger.

You just have to have your program in place and give your assistants the tools they need to get the job done.

And rember it is about helping the kids get through life just as much as the fighting.

Take it for what is worth.

I can give you a more detailed break down in a pm if you would like.

Have a nice day

[Laviathan]

Hmm, the stances in my Mantis basics and forms are very low, and it would be too much a strain for kids to perform them. It can influence their growth. So I would surely modify the stances a bit if I would start teaching children.

[SaMantis]

I think the level of strain & difficulty depends on their age. Most really young kids, it's hard to get them to sit still anyway, so a tabletop stance is not such a consideration. Age 7 and up though, they should do *correct* stances. Not necessarily low, but correct. Their muscles are strong & flexible so they will be able to do the low stances in no time, but more importantly they have to learn to do them correctly to prevent future injuries.

What do you teachers think about testing kids? Do you test them on a different scale than adults, and why? Also, do you test them more or less frequently? Tx.

[sayloc]

I dont know which kids you have been around. It seems much easier for the children to get in a low stance than the adults. Maybe you have taught more children than I have.

I find that the coordination is the problem with children. As you know mantis forms can be rather in depth making it hard for children learn. That is why I do not push "mantis" forms the first few years.

Yes you are right. It can influenace their growth, in a positive way. Most children have "natural flexibility" at least more so than a 21 year old guy. I find it is easier for them to work on the flexibility when they are younger and maintain it in thier growing years.

Like every thing else you have to have a qualified instructor who knows what is or insnt physically good for a particular student.

That goes back to a previous thread about what it takes to become an instructor in their particular mantis styles. It seemed most just needed a bunch of forms and exercises to be an instructor. In my opinion that does ot make a qualified insructor.
Being an instructor goes much deeper than that.

[Pilot]

Depending on the age of the child their bones and muscles are sometimes fragile, but they heal very fast. I defiantly cannot see training children with or the same as adults. It also takes experience with children to maintain their attention and make it interesting so you can teach them. It is good to give kids training even if they don’t get the adult training. They get so much more benefit other than self-defense, like self-control, respect, and a sense of fair play. The only thing I always had a problem with is the ranking. One school where I attended would give the same rank to a kid or adult. The catch was if anyone could defeat you (kid or adult) they would get your belt. So in that school if you saw a kid with an advanced belt, he/she probably could beat anyone regardless of age.:D

[tanglang69]

We use the ranking system for kids as a goal setting (retention) tool. We test every quarter. First couple of ranks should be easy to attain, but it does get harder as the student progresses. In the later stages, if they do not know their stuff, they don't pass and they have another 3 months to get ready for the next time.

With my old sifu, we got to the point where we were testing everybody every 2 months and charging $50 per test. We had about 18 different belt levels. And averaged about 200 students. Figure it out. Greediness. I left 7 years ago. I have matured and I see things in a different light.

You need to have a structured curriculum, you need to teach them, and if they practice on their own time, they will be ready for any test. If they are not ready, we will not set them up for failure.

Gotta go for now,

Oved
tanglang69

[WhiteMonkey]

sayloc posted "I have about 40 kids enrolled."

"I have a 5 to 8 year old class and a 9 to 13ish class. Want to start a 13 to 16 or 17 year old class when the enrollment can support it."

5yr's old... are you joking?

Dam... your taking alot of mommy and daddys money, how many of these kids do you think will stay with Mantis or Kung Fu at all?

Do you also have belt ranks?

------------------------------------------

I would not train kids in mantis untill they are 11 or 12, unless it was my own kids.

Adults- Conditioning, Sparring, 2 man sets, Forms =Serious training

Kids- Games, Push Ups, Tag style Sparring, Belts = $$$$

Lets see any of you teach a 5-7 yr old Bung-Bo.

Just like the kids at baseball, standing in the field doing nothing, not paying attention, just there because mommy and daddy paid for baseball, not because they wanted to play baseball....how many 5yr olds wake up and think "I should learn to defend myself".

So the difference for me is to teach adults and to not teach kids.

I know many will not agree with me, but thats fine.

Mike

[sayloc]

Many may not agree with you, but you are allowed to express your opinion.

I like to hear other instructors input, even if they are inexperienced.

Thanks for your input

[-N-]

I have the kids in the same class as the adults. They have been as young as 6 years.

The youngest ones only stay for an hour or so, since they burn out and get cranky if they stay too long. As they get older, I have them work out for longer periods.

Physically, the kids are more flexible, so it's easier for them to have nice low stances and nice high kicks. They learn the form sequences really quickly, and can be more precise than the adults. They're not as good on applications that require detailed coordination, so something like au lou choy - yiu jahm is harder for them than kwa tung choy. Working with kids is nice... they're less stiff and rigid compared to adults.

Kids get really excited about learning, and I like for them to have fun in class.

When doing footwork, sometimes we have races. Kids that do the footwork wrong, get told, "ah, ah, no cheating!" And when they do it correctly, I tell them, "wow.. you're getting better!" I don't make a big deal about who wins, but it's more about letting them get excited about the class activities. In all our activities, if the person practices and improves he "wins", so the point is self improvement, not necessarily beating the other person.

Sometimes they get to race the teacher who has to do backwards footwork. I'll tell them "faster, faster.. you're almost catching me!" They're usually laughing themselves silly by the time we're done. Sometimes I'll have them do one line of kicking, and they have to race back using ground sweeps, or frog jumps, or duck walks. Then they'll do another line of kicking and another race back to the begining. I'll say, "hmmm.. what should we do... frog jumps??" And the kids will bounce up and down... one picking sweeps, and the other picking duck walks. So of course, we do 2 lines... one line all sweeps, and the other line all duck walks ;)

I teach them theory and applications at the same time. Pokemon has got to be one of the best things that has happened for kungfu training. The kids are already programmed to think in terms of what defeats what. So when I ask them, "when I do this, what could you do?" Each kid/adult can have a different answer, and I like to ask each person. Then I"ll answer, "the one I was thinking of was this..." I'll pick from the other answers for variations if suitable.

Sometimes I'll ask each of them to think of a single attack. Then I"ll ask them to show the class. And I'll ask them to tell the class how it's used, and what is important to remember about it. After each kid has his turn, I"ll pick some of the motions, and make a combination attack from it. Then we all drill that as one of our applications for that day.

I have the kids start sparring when they are about 7 years old. No body conditioning until they're in their teens and their bones get harder.

That's my rambling for now :)

N.

[sayloc]

N

Nice post.

Sounds like you have some experience:)

[-N-]

Originally posted by WhiteMonkey
Lets see any of you teach a 5-7 yr old Bung-Bo. I had a 7 year old that could do a better Bung Bo than many adults. I've taken him to visit my senior classmates. They were suitably impressed.

N.

[Frogman]

I have been helping out with the kids class for some time, and am now teaching them once a week. I also teach one adult class a week, so I can see the difference between the two. I just staring out instructing and have learned a lot already, the way I look at it is what I learn from the kids class I apply to the adult class.
The kids take a lot more energy as you have to keep them all interested and keep them going or they will lose focus and just stand around talking. Our school follows the same curriculum for the children as the adults. The classes are 15 minutes shorter and the workout is not as strenuous, but higher paced. I don’t offer as much detail, nor do I push them as hard, and they get out what they put in just the same as adults. I find that the newer kids are often the easiest to teach, you only need patients. If I were to charge children to teach them kung fu I would charge by how many times I say “switch your feet”. I wouldn’t have to charge for testing! Just kidding, pun intended. It’s mostly monkey see… if you can do your movement opposite of them, they think they’re looking in a mirror.
I don’t see any reason not to start a child in kung fu at the age of five. They are differently not as coordinated as adults but the important thing is muscle memory and training concepts. As for mantis technique, well you could send your kid to TKD, hopefully they will learn all those wonderful things like discipline, focus ect… , that they can learn anywhere. I wish I had started mantis at five. Bottom line kids are sponges and will adsorb pretty much anything you throw at them, might as well make it count.
One last note I was never much of a kids kind of person but I learned that they can be very cool. :)

Hope everyone has a great Holiday.

RibHit
fm

[-N-]

Originally posted by Frogman
[...]charge by how many times I say “switch your feet”[...] Yep, that's so totally true!

N.

[sayloc]

Frogman

Sounds like teaching the kids class may be helping you on your way to becoming a great instructor, maybe even a better martial artists. I am glad to see you step up to the plate and help out teaching the kids even if you are not much of a kids kind of person. Yes I agree, than can be cool.

Have a good day

[Frogman]

Sayloc,
Thanks, I do truly enjoy it. It is definitely more to think about then just following along to a count. This has also reminded me that I need to buy holiday cards, for the kids, and I need a list names. To many to remember, unless they’re standing in front of me.

-N-,
You could make a good living on the simple corrections of course I guess that’s what it’s all about anyway.

Have a good day,

RibHit
fm

[yu shan]

You sound like a natural with kids, this is a blessing. It takes alot of patience to handle the little ones, this experience will make you that much better.

My only participation with kids here was at the Nashville Chinese School. I did this for four years. I hope that KF touched there lives in some ways, the parents (Taiwan/Mainland) seemed happy. This was the most difficult in my teaching so far, my hats off to Froggy! :D

[Frogman]

Hey Yu Shan what’s happen brother. I don’t really feel like a natural, it actually took me a while to get used to the kids. The hardest part is keeping their attention, once you have that they will do what you do. Of course just like with the adults there will be slackers. The ones that try do quite well, you get out what they put in. One of life’s good lessons.

I have found the easiest things to correct are the mistakes I've made myself.
;)
RibHit
fm

[yu shan]

Hey Froggy

There is alot happening... life is busy for me. You ought to try and figure a way to slap a tiger fork in with your frog avatar :D On my trip to Taiwan, I had a real treat of watching Master Shr`s kids class. They were doing a series of line kicking drills. While executing the kicking exercise they looked like little adults. Very clean and sharp. But it was funny, at the end of the road to the kicks, they would all act up like american kids. Goofing and playing, guess this is universal with kids huh. I might add, they did some of the kicks better than me. I taught a little chinese kid once who could not speak. He learned KF faster and better than all the other kids, he was very small. I only had one semester with him, the Chinese School cancelled Tai Chi and Kung Fu, due to a new Principal that wanted academics.