What's wrong with Wing Chun?

[stonecrusher69]

I like to make a comment and question about what people think about the future and quality of instructions in W.C. When ever you hear about someone who is very skilled in W.C. (or really any art )they always say, oh if you think I'm good you should see me sifu.I'm nothing compared to him,so my question is if this is true then why is this so ? Also,then each generation will be less and less skillful as time goes on. I believe there are at least 3 general reasons for this.1# Students today do not train as hard as in the past .2# A lack of quality instructors.3# Sifu's are not passing down all the art for what ever reason. I like to hear what people think about this and also does anyone know of a student who surpassed his sifu? Of course if the sifu is real old or sick or has become very lazy then that does not count.

[t_niehoff]

That "schtick" is typically nonsense, and works on several levels -- as a defense-mechanism to try and explain away why it is they don't have any great skill ("I'm not so good, but my instructor . . .well, that's another story"); to try and promote their "lineage"; etc.

The idea that instructors aren't "passing down all the art" is based on the mistaken notion that skill can be "passed down". Theoreticans like to think that it comes down to knowledge (aka theory) when in reality it comes down to performance. The only reason folks have less skill than their instructors is because they haven't trained properly or sufficiently. Boxers, wrestlers, BJJists, etc. have all continued to produce increased performances from their trainees because they have continued to train; those arts that have discontinued training, like most TCMAs, is where you have the decline.

[Ernie]

Simple

People don't fight anymore

When people don't fight they have no goal, no checks or balances

So then only technicians are left, people that get fixated on the [training system] and lose sight of the [application system]

Since there are no fighters all the talkers take over and start accumulating their versions of techniques

Then they make levels and the logos and secret little ranking in door out door disciple this or that

Thus the goal has shifted from a fighting art to a certificate art

And this will continue to get worse as time goes by

People will of course argue and say [not in my system]

But that's the cancer. Staying in the bubble feeding off your school/lineage

If people could still really fight then you would see students surpassing their coaches

Like in all other fighting arts that still do some form of fighting [chi sau is not fighting so don't lie to yourselves]

Now those technicians and the students of technicians

That have never fought will continue to robotize and theorize, and fantasize

This is the progression of so called wing Chun ''artist''

Because people that fight with wing Chun skill [skill introduced by the training system but gained through experience of combat]
Are few and far between

Mainly in the earlier generations and those guys are getting old and no longer teaching with fighting in mind, takes to much work and energy to produce a fighter, much easier to produce a technician

[rogue]

Ernie, that goes for any art. Very nicely put

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Thus the goal has shifted from a fighting art to a certificate art." (Ernie)

There is it, folks....

The WINNER of the 2004...QUOTE-OF-THE-YEAR award on the Wing Chun forum.

I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of the Wing Chun instructors who are willing to teach their students ALL THEY KNOW...and do so in a FIGHTING APPLICATION ATMOSPHERE...

is appallingly low.

It's about the economy...stupid.

[old jong]

There is nothing wrong with Wing Chun.Just find the best teacher available and you will see for yourself.

[Vajramusti]

comments on Stonecrusher 69's post:

Also,then each generation will be less and less skillful as time goes on.

( Not necessarily so- another area where we could be careful about generalizing about all of wing chun))

I like to hear what people think about this and also does anyone know of a student who surpassed his sifu?

((IMO- yes-))

[Vajramusti]

comments on Stonecrusher 69's post:

Also,then each generation will be less and less skillful as time goes on.

( Not necessarily so- another area where we could be careful about generalizing about all of wing chun))

I like to hear what people think about this and also does anyone know of a student who surpassed his sifu?

((IMO- yes-))

[stonecrusher69]

yeah, I believe all your comments are valid ones...ernie post was a good one,also what about ego? I know some sifu's ( I say some again) always want to be top dog and with hold information.

[old jong]

Originally posted by stonecrusher69
yeah, I believe all your comments are valid ones...ernie post was a good one,also what about ego? I know some sifu's ( I say some again) always want to be top dog and with hold information.

That kind of teacher doesn't deserve to teach anyway.Look for a better one.A student also have to know what he wants.There are many "personal" interpretations on Wing Chun out there.
There is also a lot of negative noise by MMA wannabes,pseudo Wing Chun people ETC...It's you choice to listen or not.

[Wilson]

Ever think maybe they are just being courteous and/or respectful in their thoughts and words about their sifu?

A person's physical skills should definitely overcome his/her sifu's in time as the instructor grows older, however I would hope you can still learn many things from them or do we just disregard all the old sifus out there?

My sifu always says its his job to make me better than he is.

I agree with others on here thought that the true test of one's ability in a fighting art is the ability to fight. It is a personal choice for anyone to want to test themselves in this ability. Or, one should be truthful to themselves in their expectations of what they are learning or doing.

[Vajramusti]

Respect for one's teacher is deeply ingrained in many traditions- including TCMA. It is considered unbecoming to say that one's skill is better than one teacher's. And a traditional teacher in turn is always proud if the student "surpasses" the teacher.

It is shortsighted to withold information from a student. Sharing improves the student and a good teacher can learn from his students and thus be a step ahead of his students until winter sets in for sure.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Sharing improves the student and a good teacher can learn from his students and thus be a step ahead of his students until winter sets in for sure." (Joy)

That's a pretty good quote. We'll have to nominate that one for an award. How about runner-up to Ernie's quote?

Second place isn't so bad !

[Vajramusti]

Victor-Thanks- but No thanks. I dont compete for awards.
Besides my old school motto and not a bad one-
was "nihil ultra".

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah...I have a school motto also.

It's hangin' on the wall. It says...

"WINTER IS COMING".

[old jong]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Victor-Thanks- but No thanks. I dont compete for awards.
Besides my old school motto and not a bad one-
was "nihil ultra".

St.Xavier?...;)

[yellowpikachu]

Could Anyone out there who really know about Keng Geng, describe the process so that we can implement it, please?

otherwise, what's wrong with a car without enginee? or a car with a replace enginee? or a car with Rebuild enginee?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
That "schtick" is typically nonsense, and works on several levels -- as a defense-mechanism to try and explain away why it is they don't have any great skill ("I'm not so good, but my instructor . . .well, that's another story"); to try and promote their "lineage"; etc.

The idea that instructors aren't "passing down all the art" is based on the mistaken notion that skill can be "passed down". Theoreticans like to think that it comes down to knowledge (aka theory) when in reality it comes down to performance.



The idea of that instructors arent "passing down all the art" is based on the TRUTH and FACTS that Critical Processes WERE NOT passed down. OR PASSED DOWN IN A DISCRIMINATION MANNER.

ie. one like me who doNOT have the PROCESS of Keng Geng means I dont know what and how to produce Keng Gecang.

There is no Theorician or Figther when it comes to answering the question----

IE

DO YOU KNOW HOW TO GENERATE KENG GENG? DO YOU HAVE THE PROCESS TO DO IT?

It has all todo with Do we have the technology.





One of the requirement of Great Skill is one needs SURE SHOOT PROCESS to make things happen.


WCK has lots of PROCESSES. Processes of condition the body, processes of generating power. Process of implementing applications.

Processes has nothing todo with labering a person is fighter or theorician. It has to do with technology.

Go to any Cellphone or high tech manufacturing factor. There one will see, NO reliable Process for Production, NO mass production quality perfomance products.

Doesnt matter what the experienter such as Thomas Edison can prototype. NO SURE SHORT PROCESS NO REPEATABLE PRODUCT.


as for SKILL, first one has to have the process, then master the process. then there is skill.


one of the FACT and TRUTH is I can teach you my set. You can copy my set. BuT, If I dont give you the Process of conditioning and the Process of power generation and the Process of Implementing Application. You can keep copy my set, my kuit, and you will go no where. I learn that from the movie, Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon. :D :D :D but may be that is the TRUTH. As soon as the fox cant decode the process out. the kuit is useless.

just some thoughts. and I know I am always DRUNK and WRONG :D:D:D


sing the old song! for the historian of WCK of past, present, and future, who is working towards recovering the PROCESS!



If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountains disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes.
The world I know fades away
But you-- the PROCESSES --stay.

As the earth reclaims its due,
And the cycle starts anew,
We'll stay, always

If the years take away
Every memory that I have
I would still know the way
That would lead me back to your side. (to recover those processes.)
The North star may die
But the light that I see in your eyes (to recover those processes.)
Will burn there always
Shared before time.

When the forest turns to jade
And the stories that we've made.
Dissolve away
One shining light will still remain.
The world I know fades away
But you-- the PROCESSES --stay.





Isnt those Historian and Theorician Meaningfull? :D:
Dont we want to appreciate the historian, theorician, and figthers who is similar to the design engineer, field appication engineer, markerting engineer and sale engineer? :D


what's wrong with WCK?

ask all those Engineers to not fight but work together! :D

[Tydive]

Hendrick, I need to buy you a beer. That was a wonderful post.:D

[Vajramusti]

Old Jong sez:

St.Xavier?...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pretty good. How did you know that?
I am impressed.

joy

[Bob8]

Sarbadhikari

[Vajramusti]

Bob 8 sez-

Sarbadhikari
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hey- whats going on? Some kind of tracking google search/matching?. Too close for comfort!!

Gee- first Old Jong then Bob 8- I gotta run!

Scary!!

[Bob8]

Yes Joy, simply put some info into Google.
I did this for fun not to scare you hehe
Besides I am on another continent :-)

Do not know if Old Jong also used Google,
could be, perhaps he heard it elsewhere.

Bob

[old jong]

Google is the modern crystal ball!...;) :D

[Vajramusti]

Bob 8 and OJ-- interesting--- I put in my full first name and the short Joy for me.. and neither St. Xavier's or Sarbadhikari came up for me. You must have probed deeper than I did.
Gee- Google and co and internet wares really digs out surprising things. Scary from the standpoint of privacy- the grandkids might ask what's that? In any case- no problem with you two guys---lots of good things that google doesnt pick up- as of yet.
In any case- St Xavier's school in Calcutta(Kolkata now) is one of the two best schools in India. My niece taught at the other one-
Doon School at Dehra Dun. My school was tough in academics and sports. The Belgian Jesuits who ran it then would be in jail i for cruelty in the US these days. And I was the chief pagan rebel and prankster of my time. Was thrown into the ring many times to settle disputes-plus caning, belts and other instruments of juvenile torture in that medieval system..
And Sarbadhikaris were there on the maternal side.Lots of doctors and educators. I was a rebel there too.
Ran away many times- failed to join the French Foreign legion when I got bounced from a docked ship-finally succeeded- ended up in America after the UK.-
married an American Indian "princess" and lived happily ever after or until she died-thanks(no thanks grrrr) to the goof up of a health maintenance org....managed care- lots of mangement- very little care.

[old jong]

Joy!
I just asked for "nihil ultra" on Google.
BTW,these "religious" teachers always had a problem of some sort with their self-acceptation or something.I think they were the same all over the globe. :( Good thing this era is almost over and done now.

The legion!....Wow!...;) Those guys are still active?...
I understand it is normal that your story ends with a princess!...;)

[Bob8]

>Gee- Google and co and internet wares
> really digs out surprising things. Scary
> from the standpoint of privacy.

Agreed. Fortunately, I have nothing to hide :-)

>lots of good things that google doesnt pick up

I think you would be suprised to know what can
be find if you know your way, same in the 'real'
life! :-) But there are still good things/people that
google can not find.

Interesting story about the school.

>and lived happily ever after or until
>she died-thanks(no thanks
>grrrr) to the goof up of a health
>maintenance org....managed
>care- lots of mangement- very little care.

Same everywhere :-( To much management... it is
a decease IMO. Sorry to hear your wife passed away.

Bob