intructor/student relationship

[packard]

So, as a teacher of many years, I have taught loads of students.

This week, I had a student (male) refer to me as a friend. It took me by surprise a little given that he was not some one I know that well from the classes.

So it got me thinking about the student/instructor relationship again. Something that I think about on a regular basis.

What is your opinion of an instructor being a friend with a student? Do you have personal experience of this – good or bad? And what about the class dynamics of such a relationship?

Any thoughts……

[red5angel]

I don't have a problem with it. A few of my instructors have been freinds, a few have been instructors only. They both have their advantages.

[bung bo]

My shifu and I are friends. When we talk we speak as friends, but I know and he knows that I know he is still my shifu and I have much respect for him. I do things out of respect that I do not do for other friends. I only got Christmas presents for my family and my shifu. He doesn't give me special treatment in class if that's what you mean.

[David Jamieson]

Kung Fu Tze said:

keep no friends who are not your equal.

so all things being equal, what is equal?

I don't see a problem in having a student or a teacher who is a close friend, the curriculum and material being learned is knowledge you are handing down or receiving that's all, it is not something that makes you better than someone else, it only makes you better than what you currently are. :p

If you are incapable of regarding others in a positive manner, especially those you share with, then in my opinion, there is something else at play. I have my opinion on several ways that works, but, I'm sure everyone will figure it out for themselves...or not.

[Starchaser107]

I'm friends with my sifu, and freinds with some of my juniors.
I think it all depends on the vibe of your school. Some people are naturally very friendly and expect others to reciprocate and sometimes it happens , sometimes not. But some folks throw around the word "friend" too loosely.:cool:

[sihing]

I wouldn't classify my relationship with my Sifu as "Friend Like". Although we do talk about any and all kinds of subjects, laugh and cry together and I basically know more about him than most of his family as he does about me, he's still my Sifu and there is that respect. But I have been accused of "Busting his Balls" once in a while, and for some reason I seem to get away with it most of the time, but as with anything once in a while I say something I shouldn't have. I'm like that with everyone, and he understands that it is meaningless and if I didn't respect him to the fullest I wouldn't be there in the first place.

And now since I am also a employee of his (I just started full time working at the school and getting paid for it, but I've been with Sifu for 16 +yrs now) there is also that type of relationship to deal with. Since it is his school, things will be done the way he wants it and that is a reasonable request. We (my Sihing also works fulltime also) do however suggest things that may improve this area or that, and this arrangement has been successful with the school now at its most prosperious time ever. This of course is a combination of Sifu's leadership abilities and our being there to help fullfill all the tasks required to make the school as successful it is today.

James

[Becca]

I was friends with my junior Sifu before he was a sifu. We still get along well, though we have toned down most of the rowdier aspects, so I guess we are still friends. I enjoy an easy repoure with all the other sifus I know, but I would not call this friendship. I don't have a problem with it personnally, but there is a time and place when both need to be able to step back to a professional relationship. Some people can do this, some can't.

I guess it should also be said that I don't measure friendship by how much two people agree with each other, share same intrests, or even know much personnal stuff about each other. For me it is an understanding; a meld of comfort with each other and a deep respect that has nothing to do with any one subject. Sometimes this type of understanding comes almost instantly with someone. Most of the time it develops over time, and usually sneeks up on me.

[kwaichang kaned]

Been a while!
And this will sound like i'm *****ing because....well I am .

I was friends with my previous Sifu.
But he took it as a que to start taking the Pizz.

Turning up late or not at all.Half assed lessons.OR his favorite
"i'm not feeling like teaching today.I have (insert medical problem here) can we do this tomorrow mate?"
Leaving me to instruct classes whilst he went off to shop or visit friends.
"you don't mind do you..... MATE?"
Basically he left me to run his school whilst he reaped the benefits.
And believe me i am NOWHERE NEAR ready to teach.The school and the students were suffering because of it.
But i felt like ,What am i gonna do? he's my Sifu and my friend I can't leave him in the lurch
When me and another of his senoir students voiced concerns over our training (or lack of it) And the progress of the other students (or lack of it) He told us if you don't like it there's the door.
Thanks man! I put my life on hold , put in 14hr days going to the school straight from work not to mention the problems it caused in my relationship( she could see where this was heading.**** female intuition)
So i took his advise for the last time and left.
That was back in July
Currently at another school starting from scratch and whilst im "friendly" with Sifu ,I wouldn't call him a friend .

[David Jamieson]

kaned-

The guy who took advantage of you was never your friend to begin with judging by the course of events that took place.


There is no problem with being friends with someone who is teaching you something. The problems only exist in our point of view and how we create our pervasive illusion of reality.
:p

[Ray Pina]

I love and respct my master. I drive him home after class and we talk about martial arts. Occassionally the conversation drifts to other areas, but the conversation is brief. Like the time he said, "Be careful if a girl doesn't want you to train."

Luckily I don't have that problem. When I'm with my teacher I just try to keep my mouth shut and listen to what he has to say, though sometimes after class, when you're feeling good about things learned it's hard. But I try to remind myself.

Being with my master is like being with a coach, father/grandfather, tough guy killer and priest wrapped up into one. Hard to explain, but there is a seperation. I am not on his level, and he's about the only person in the world that I would say that about.

[kwaichang kaned]

Yep! flattered to deceive .
And my wasn't sucked in.:(
Ego got the best of me.

Still,older and wiser-er.

[David Jamieson]

Friendship is like respect, it must be earned.

If someone likes the cut of your jib, it is likely they will gravitate towards you and just as likely they will extend the laurel of friendship.

You can both respect the discipline you are pursuing and that will be what drives the pursuit.

Yes, if you are learning something from someone else then it is clear that they are the expert and you should listen to them if you seek to achieve what you see they have through the path of the shared discipline.

all too often we put the possessors of knowledge and skill on a pedastal and minimize ourselves in so doing. This does not decrease the value of the instruction, but in my opinion, if both parties give significant buy in to the above/below model, then progress can still be made, but in my opinion it is impeded to some degree.

[Ray Pina]

You have to understand, I am learning what I consider to be a high-level of martial arts from a Chinese man in his 60s who has sought out and paid a fortune to bring some of the top people over from China.

I'm a poor white boy. When I have the opportunity to spend private time with my master, rapping about Brittney Spears is the last thing on my mind. But my master is really something else. The things he comes out with cracks me up. From girls to fights to politics to art, all types of stuff. He's a really funny man.

He's also very humble and carries himself as one of the guys, but I can sense his disapointment when students take this for granted .... or maybe it's my own disapointment in them that I sense.

Here is a 64 year old man who still fights. Not demonstrates, not shows you what he WOULD do. This man, at about 150-165, will fight you and beat you to shear fright. Or at least me.

There is no doubt this man is on a peddlestill in my eyes. I make no bones about it, this man is my hero and exactly what I've been looking for my entire life. Our relationship is much more valuable to me than friendship ... and I hold friendship in high regards.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by kwaichang kaned
Been a while!
And this will sound like i'm *****ing because....well I am .

I was friends with my previous Sifu.
But he took it as a que to start taking the Pizz.

Turning up late or not at all.Half assed lessons.OR his favorite
"i'm not feeling like teaching today.I have (insert medical problem here) can we do this tomorrow mate?"
Leaving me to instruct classes whilst he went off to shop or visit friends.
"you don't mind do you..... MATE?"
Basically he left me to run his school whilst he reaped the benefits.
And believe me i am NOWHERE NEAR ready to teach.The school and the students were suffering because of it.
But i felt like ,What am i gonna do? he's my Sifu and my friend I can't leave him in the lurch
When me and another of his senoir students voiced concerns over our training (or lack of it) And the progress of the other students (or lack of it) He told us if you don't like it there's the door.
Thanks man! I put my life on hold , put in 14hr days going to the school straight from work not to mention the problems it caused in my relationship( she could see where this was heading.**** female intuition)
So i took his advise for the last time and left.
That was back in July
Currently at another school starting from scratch and whilst im "friendly" with Sifu ,I wouldn't call him a friend .

KK, I had a very similar experience a few years back...

My advice is to be friendly with your sifu, but cautiously so. They are above all, your teacher. There are boundaries there that need to be maintained. Without them, you open the door to as many difficulties as you do possibilities so be careful. Better to be good friends with your training partners and classmates.

[kwaichang kaned]

Originally posted by SiuHung
KK, I had a very similar experience a few years back...

My advice is to be friendly with your sifu, but cautiously so. They are above all, your teacher. There are boundaries there that need to be maintained. Without them, you open the door to as many difficulties as you do possibilities so be careful. Better to be good friends with your training partners and classmates.

That's pretty much how conduct myself now.Say hello when I enter .Enquire politely about his health and his family then shut up and train.

I was also fortunate to make some very good friends who i am still in contact with.Infact a couple of them moved schools with me.

[packard]

Great feed back guys.

so just to add another thought into the pot.....

students who become friends and the exchange of money for lessons. So as a teacher now training a friend, how would you feel about paying/not paying?

[David Jamieson]

you have to contribute to the upkeep of the kwoon.

bills need to be paid, etc etc.

a person worked very hard and in all likelyhood paid monies to contribute to the upkeep of the kwoon where they learned.

reciprocity is paramount in importance. the money serves a purpose, it really shouldn't be just pocket lining. I would think that of any skill set you are transmitting. a turn in kind and all that.

[bung bo]

Good stuff, EvolutionFist.

packard--There have been times when money was a little problem for me, but my Shifu has never had to ask me for tuition. I think students should pay tuition for as long as they are taught. If the teacher offers to teach for free, that's their business.

[David Jamieson]

I haven't paid tuition in over 4 years.

well then, everything you know is illegitimate then isn't it? :p

lol

[norther practitioner]

It has depended on what the schools situation was, if we needed to pay rent, then I payed tuition (when I was teaching the beg. class).

[Becca]

Originally posted by packard
Great feed back guys.

so just to add another thought into the pot.....

students who become friends and the exchange of money for lessons. So as a teacher now training a friend, how would you feel about paying/not paying?
The freindship stops at the door and picks back up when you leave. While in the kwoon, it is strait up student/teacher. As far as paying, he is the one supplying the training space and equipment and it don't come free... The least I can do is help pay the cost and maybe a little extra so he can afford to teach me.:rolleyes:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Exactly, Becca.. Sifu and friendship are two different things.. when you become so comfortable with your Sifu that it is noticable in the school, there will be problems.. usually with the other students.. i've heard so many stories of students that have been to Sifu's house or gone here or there with him and they feel a superiority over the less fortunate and that is unfortunate.. i know, i was like that at one time.. Now, i understand the value of "friendship" and i don't bring it to class.. sure, i laugh and joke with all my students, but.. i don't hold any above others.. they are all "friends" at some level but students, first.. friendships with students outside of class are rewarding and appreciated, but.. the Sifu must at all times remember that they are the example, it's not an easy responsibility.. everything a Sifu does speaks to the quality of the school and the system.. outside of the school a student may assume whatever role they choose, but the Sifu is always a Sifu, even to the general public..

Keep the relationships separate and there should be minimal issues to deal with and a happier school..

Be well..

[David Jamieson]

bob-

in my opinion, the students you speak of who hold it over others because they participate in private activities with sifu is a symptom of the problem with heirarchical structures.

If there were simply the knowledge/the teacher/the learner and the relationships to each other were not worked into this, then I think the process would weed out these types of behaviours on both the parts of the student and the teacher.

people are the main ingredient not where they are on a totem pole. the totem pole structure is false and in my opinion wholly incorrect.

if you can't be a friend, then you simply can't impart everything that you want to impart.

teachers are people, students are people. respect is not the issue, it is the whole incrowd, sidelines mentality that perpetuates this way of thinking which in turn impedes (and severly in my opinion) the propogation of real kungfu.

Being a friend to someone is to not turn your back on them and to not give ultimatums regarding questions that are irrellevant to the teachings.

If both sides cannot see that, then there will always be something lacking between the two.

some people are perfectly happy to just belong to a group though. But this is not why I practice Kungfu.

[SevenStar]

I consider all of my coaches friends.We hang out outside of class and do things any other friends would do. However, we all love to train, so we put all of that aside in class and train. Once we leave, we're friends again.

[Buddy]

First of all EF is in a different position than what I am about to comment on. If I was in that position I would keep my ears open and mouth shut. Even now I am fortunate that when Mr. Luo comes here he stays at my house. I am not too much younger than him and he doesn't seem to like too much overt display of honorific. However he is my teacher and I still defer to him and would always. His skill and knowlege will always be lightyears beyond my own. But also, I think, he is my friend. I suspect he might tell me things if I asked, but I don't want to be too curious. I trust him to give me what he thinks I need. And I like that.

It's a bit different with my students and me though. We are more contemporary. They are genuinely my friends in that we socialize to no small degree. But when we are in class I am the one with a little more knowlege (I won't say skill) than they. It's really never an issue. I can see where they need to improve and they want that. It's a nice, close relationship that I appreciate. I hope they do as well. But the bootm line is we are friends.

[Becca]

TaiChiBob- I have seen people who act this way, as well. But I learned early on how to keep the two seperate, as my first MA instructor was a Marine Gunny wile I was a lowly LCpl. And his teacher was a retired Air Force Colonal, so I had a good example of how to do it.

[David Jamieson]

YOu guy do realize that in your posts you have made self deprecating comments.

you are never a lowly anything becca. and buddy, as long as you think someone is "light years" ahead of you and always will be, means that you cannot progress.

I understand the value of learning, the value of teaching and the value of having opportunity to do one or the other or both.
I understand how roles work, but I don't think it is impossible to be friends with someone you have respect for.

anyway...just saying

[Becca]

Lowly as in Lance Corporals do not "hung out" with Gunnery Sgts, and neither hang out with Colonals. It's called military Hierarchy. I wasn't saying I was worthless. I was saying I was severly out-ranked.

[David Jamieson]

That's cool, but you see where heirarchy itself creates these perceptions of self and others though don't you?

[Becca]

Yep. I'm the Momy, so my 8- and 2-year old boys do things my way. My father was the Dad so I did things his way. Hierarchy. It's a fact of society.:)

[David Jamieson]

well I do think it is a prevalent structure, I don't think it supercedes friendship. And in the case of young-uns, the need guideance in early experience because they do not have that experience yet.

The family structure is also used in some kwoons and mimiced in others. IE: the trappings are there, but the reality is not. see what I'm saying?

I think the real question is "what is a friend" followed closely by, "who are yours". :)

[Ray Pina]

I don't understand the mystery in all of this .... aren't we all martial artists here?

I've had teachers who were closer to my age and from the same culture (Americans). SO in class it was very respectful but afterwards we'd all go grab some food and have a few beers and talk chicks and what not. But the respect was always there. And even then, I wasn't too anxious to open my mouth. You don't go out with your college professor who has a PHD studying the Beats and start rambling off at the mouth over Jack Kerouac. Chime in here and there, and listen, learn.

When it comes to my master now, it is a unique relationship. I've never called someone master before .... but in this instance it fits, is appropriate. This man did something to me the other day (crazy angle, almost 90 degrees on one leg with such force, as if pushing a car) that blew my mind away. I am not on his level when it comes to martial arts. When it comes to surfing, he's not on mine. But he aint coming to me for surf lessons. I'm coming to him.