Contributing to bad kungfu

[FngSaiYuk]

red5angel brought up a question in lkfmdc's thread on his sifu Chan Tai San-


Originally posted by red5angel
Ross admits the guy taught people the wrong way because they weren't "in the door" students. Ok, I can understand this elitist and short sighted view many traditional chinese instructors had or have. however, you can't argue for one minute that this doesn't contribute to the crap that is traditional kungfu today. For fukk sake Ross describes watching an entire class doing footwork wrong! The very foundation of a lot of martial arts and they were taught wrong because of some outdated method of thinking that only a few shoudl get the real thing?!

A) I wanted to pull this into a separate thread so the orignal thread is not hijacked

B) Clarifying the real question-

I think the real question here is, should REAL kung fu (as defined by Ross' idea of REAL since this is the orignal context of red5's post) only be taught to those judged as 'worthy'?

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
I think the real question here is, should REAL kung fu (as defined by Ross' idea of REAL since this is the orignal context of red5's post) only be taught to those judged as 'worthy'?

My thoughts-

MOST people who take up martial arts are not looking for REAL kung fu. What they're looking for is a method of getting healthy, perhaps some self defence skills and more often, a hobby.

Those hard core students who have what it takes to learn REAL kung fu really are rather rare and so it's understandable that there are an elite few who are 'in the door' and have access to REAL kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

only laziness and/or indifference will prevent you from attaining kungfu.

when you gain experience and you know what you are doing, you will also see the errors in what you are doing.

In time, the deceptions you have been fed will become transparent and you will move forward.

[Ray Pina]

There are always the "In" and "Out" in everything. In high school football, there is no way that third string players are treated the same way as first string players.

Granted, we all drill the same, but it's the little stuff and in martial arts it's no different. We all drill the same, but it's the little stuff before or after class, the details.

But what seperates the "in" from the "out"?...... Desire! I've been involved in sports my entire life. I wouldn't say I was an exceptional athlete yet I made captain and first team all state. It was my desire. I wanted it. I worked at it. I wouldn't settle for less.

Most martial artists show up, do what is asked (often less, getting tired and stopping early, etc) and go home. How can you expect this person to get as much as the one who is training to fight?

[Ray Pina]

I also blame the students. How many Kung Fu guys truly test themselves? I know so many guys who have "completed" Hung Gar and Wing Chun and will go down the list of forms that they know.

You think it's that easy? They fell for the BS that they were looking for. You can't become a fighter without tasting some blood .... yours or theirs.

So then, how many people really want to train?

[red5angel]

here's the deal guys. Why don't we cut the mystical and elitist crap, it's old skool and not worth having around. It wasn't worth having around back in the day much less today. The way I see it is this - either you teach, or you don't. If you want to teach some people crap, then your selling out, plain and simple.
Someone doesn't want to work for the skill, then don't teach them,it's that simple. Instead, you're going to let them half ass it and then watch them water down the real deal with their half assed crap that YOU fed them. As far as I'm concerned there is no one to blaim at that point but the teacher. Instead of being responsible, and an adult, and turning away someone who just doesn't want to put in the effort, they took that persons money and mislead them, decieved them, contributed to the dilution of the art, period.
There's no arguing that. It's deception, it's bullsh!t and it hurts nothing but the martial arts when it's done. I've heard all the crap about honor and wokring for it and making you earn it and all that crap but it's worthless drivel and it contributes the garbage dreamer crap that people are constatnly complaining about on this forum.
It's wrong, period.

[FngSaiYuk]

Yep, that's another point I had intended to bring up - it's the same in most things. There are a FEW people who try hard enough to reach elite levels, and there are almost always elite levels. MOST people don't try that hard in EVERYTHING they do.

[red5angel]

efist, no offense but I don't want to turn this into another MMA vs TMA thread. I don't want to hear anything abotu students testing themselves in real combat, sport fighting, or whatever other pedestal anyone else is on. I asked my questions on that other thread and they have to do with the teachers and essentially what almost amounts to a consipiracy to decieive and mislead in some families and circles of martial arts. I understand the issues of who wants it and who doesn't, but that's not what this is about.

[David Jamieson]

rule of thumb is for every 1000 practitioners, there will be 1 who will continue with kungfu practice for life.

[David Jamieson]

not that rules of thumbs are 100% accurate, but they are a pretty good ballpark figure.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
here's the deal guys. Why don't we cut the mystical and elitist crap, it's old skool and not worth having around. It wasn't worth having around back in the day much less today. The way I see it is this - either you teach, or you don't. If you want to teach some people crap, then your selling out, plain and simple.
Someone doesn't want to work for the skill, then don't teach them,it's that simple. Instead, you're going to let them half ass it and then watch them water down the real deal with their half assed crap that YOU fed them. As far as I'm concerned there is no one to blaim at that point but the teacher. Instead of being responsible, and an adult, and turning away someone who just doesn't want to put in the effort, they took that persons money and mislead them, decieved them, contributed to the dilution of the art, period.
There's no arguing that. It's deception, it's bullsh!t and it hurts nothing but the martial arts when it's done. I've heard all the crap about honor and wokring for it and making you earn it and all that crap but it's worthless drivel and it contributes the garbage dreamer crap that people are constatnly complaining about on this forum.
It's wrong, period.

This has been brought up before. Basics to it is, teachers need to pay taxes, rent, food, etc. just like everyone else. Since there is a wide base of people who are interested in martial arts as a hobby and for health, and VERY FEW who are really really into it and are willing to put in the amount of effort and PAIN involved, it's only natural that teachers will have different levels of teaching that are completely based on the STUDENT's capacities.

As Ross' thread shows, even the best fighters and teachers are still human.

Also, given humans being how they are, with the large base of people interested in martial arts yet not willing to put in the dedication required, it's inevitable that we end up with the mcdojo/mckwoon's and worse.

It's PEOPLE that contribute to bad kungfu, just as in anything else.

[red5angel]

it's only natural that teachers will have different levels of teaching that are completely based on the STUDENT's capacities.

This has nothing to do with it. If you feel you need to sell out in order to make a living then do it by adopting aerobics classes or some other gimicky crap, and don't mislead hundreds of people into thinking you're giving thems something you're not. Either you teach them what you advertise or you become part of the problem period.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
This has nothing to do with it. If you feel you need to sell out in order to make a living then do it by adopting aerobics classes or some other gimicky crap, and don't mislead hundreds of people into thinking you're giving thems something you're not. Either you teach them what you advertise or you become part of the problem period.

You're ignoring human nature. People almost welcome being misled just so they get something nice and easy. Instant gratification, short attention spans, all that stuff. People don't really want the truth, they want to be comfy and feel that things are good and working and all that.

Check out peoples attitudes during the recent economic depression...

[red5angel]

no I'm not actually, my point is that this sort of behaviour only encourages and contributes to the bad habits of human nature. All this crying about this and that not working and this not being trained right and so on and so forth. You guys keep trying to spin this to the students and it's not about the students.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
no I'm not actually, my point is that this sort of behaviour only encourages and contributes to the bad habits of human nature. All this crying about this and that not working and this not being trained right and so on and so forth. You guys keep trying to spin this to the students and it's not about the students.

OK, I agree that it's not just about the students, however you're ignorning my points that teachers are just as human as students. And all the good stuff has been acquired through decades of dedicated, strenuous and PAINFULL training. It's only human to bother attempting to teach this stuff only to those who show the dedication to actually learn it.

And again, as far as advertising a kungrobics kind of class, you'll still end up losing a large number of potential students who want to think that they're learning kungfu (yet who aren't up to putting in the kind of dedication required).

[red5angel]

I once had an instructor who made you do a lot of painful and basic training. Your first year was spent doing a lot of monotonous and painful stuff. You got a little taste here and there but for a year you did all the basics over and over and over again. In roughly a year you began to slowly advance. He didn't mislead people by telling them he was teaching them the real deal and not. He didn't alter his teaching for some people and not for others. He made you work very hard on the very basics, long enough that if you weren't serious about it you disappeared, he weeded you out without any deception or misleading or misinstruction.

[SanSoo Student]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
rule of thumb is for every 1000 practitioners, there will be 1 who will continue with kungfu practice for life.

This was true in my old kung fu class, there were about 100 black sashes revolving in 3 advance (mastering) level classes. I hear from masters at that point that only about 5-10 will practice to become masters. They say once you attain the level past basics, its up to the student to try and find truths in the art that were previously hidden.

As for teaching bad kung fu, my teachers had one simple way of fixing this. You do crap and do not work at it, then you won't learn anything new. You don't learn anything new means you won't move rank. This form of humiliation was enough to drive most people, or make them quit.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
I once had an instructor who made you do a lot of painful and basic training. Your first year was spent doing a lot of monotonous and painful stuff. You got a little taste here and there but for a year you did all the basics over and over and over again. In roughly a year you began to slowly advance. He didn't mislead people by telling them he was teaching them the real deal and not. He didn't alter his teaching for some people and not for others. He made you work very hard on the very basics, long enough that if you weren't serious about it you disappeared, he weeded you out without any deception or misleading or misinstruction.

Sounds great, people like that are rare.

[SanSoo Student]

People like that usually teach privately, owning flower shops or some other form of sustenence. They know that dealing with a kwoon is too much work, because Americans are lazy. Sorry, but most old masters I know still have this stereotype.

[Ray Pina]

Here's how I see it. For a while we had someone from Gracie's school coming to train with us. I liked him a lot, still do, and he was a great training partner.

While he was around we worked a lot of basics, structure, wedging, pretty much the core of things. But we were aware that he was going back and forth between schools.

After a while my teacher got tired of it, and said it straight out, you're stupid for presenting your head to me like that. Sometimes this student would force my teacher to hit him, he became unhappy and left.

As soon as he left, we took all those basics and upgrated them with some stratgey and I really learned a lot.

My teacher was smart. He knew he'd take some stuff go there and try it. See what he learned from their counter then come back. Before you know it the two schools are pitted against each other.

There are a lot of reasons. My teacher says, you have to be careful about who hand you put the weapon into.

That's one side of it.

The other side of it is why don't people ask what the hell are we holding horse stance for an hour for? It's killing my knees and we aint doing any real defense training. Why don't any of us own head gear or boxing gloves? Why do we hold our arm out in the air for?

You can say, oh well, the teacher said this is the way to learn. But common sense has to come in at some point.

I know for a fact my teacher is still holding some stuff from me, because from time to time he'll show me something that completely changes my understanding. But I don't get mad about it.

I get what I get when I'm ready for it. I had the hardest time understand the real nature of Tigers Head. For well over a year I was running around covering up like an idiot. I couldn't get more yet.

Only recently am I really starting to understand. But I've had my disagreements with my teacher too. The important thing is is to speak to the teacher. Talk to them. Come right out and say what's on your mind respectfully.

Another thing is, play with the seniors. Ask to anyway. See what they have and compare with what you'r ebeing shown. Put pressure on them and the technique comes out. Most senior students like to show what they have.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I also blame the students. How many Kung Fu guys truly test themselves? I know so many guys who have "completed" Hung Gar and Wing Chun and will go down the list of forms that they know.

You think it's that easy? They fell for the BS that they were looking for. You can't become a fighter without tasting some blood .... yours or theirs.

So then, how many people really want to train?

While I agree with that, it's not really relevant to this topic. The topic is someone intentionally teaching incorrect techniques. What if the person that was judged and deemed and unworthy actually WANTS to test himself? Now he has to re-learn because he was taught incorrectly. The question though, is how often does this happen? I've heard of a couple of people who do this, however, I had only heard that these people show forms and such incorrectly on video tapes - it was like a check and balance method. If someone says they learned from the guy, yet they are doing the incorrect version of the form, you know where he really learned it.

[red5angel]

holding stuff from you is one thing. Figuring some things out on your own is yet another. Changing what you train your students is on a completely different level in my book.
Most teachers don't hand you everything at once, they can't, it's a ridiculous idea, so of course the longer you stick around the more you get AND the more you show your worth it. That's my point. You can create all sorts of little reasons for not showing someone something. The example of your instructor and the grappler are a bad example in my opinion. Your instructor is making assumptions in a world where people often attend multiple schools. He doesn't really know what's going to happen and so to show the guy the wrong stuff - in this case It sounds like he just didn't show the guy some stuff, so see above - is completely out of line in my opinion.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

The other side of it is why don't people ask what the hell are we holding horse stance for an hour for? It's killing my knees and we aint doing any real defense training. Why don't any of us own head gear or boxing gloves? Why do we hold our arm out in the air for?

You can say, oh well, the teacher said this is the way to learn. But common sense has to come in at some point.


It's not really just common sense to all people. that's the thing. If it were, McSchools wouldn't be so prominent.

1. Not eveyont does MA in order to learn to fight

2. of those who do, not all of them know what to look for - they figure their teacher will guide them in the right direction.

[SanSoo Student]

Bottom Line, I think is that some schools do this take in more student just to keep the school open. Changing the traditional way of learning the art or making it easier helps progress students at a faster rate. Some parents bug the masters why Jimmy or Billy isn't advancing when his friend did. They do sell out, because they are partially afraid that these half-assed students will quit once it gets hard. Thats the problem, I think to correct this an instructor should always start beginners with the same intensity and training as the advanced people. Not watering it down and having them quit once the more strenuous activites show up.

[Ray Pina]

This won't be too popular but anyone why trains under a Chinese teacher will understand ... you have to earn the right to be tought the good stuff.

You have to understand how many years, how much time and money these masters have put into their training. Do you really expect to walk up a few flight of stairs and walk through the door with an American smile and dimple and be shown everything right off the bat?

Red, I understand what you are saying and in day-to-day principle you are right. But this is the martial art world. For better or for worse it's different.

Mr. Ross's post is a good look into the way it is. It's not strip mall training. What he's talking about is something else. It's very serious. It's rare. When you find it you take the good with the bad. Luckily for me it's been all good. The bad times have been from me being angry at not getting support to go fight but now I see my master is smart and kind and that I'm really not ready. I'm still fighting. He just wants me to go out and beat somebody.

Anyway, in the end it's only martial arts. It doesn't matter much these days except if you like that sort of thing.

[red5angel]

Changing the traditional way of learning the art or making it easier helps progress students at a faster rate.

This isn't about changing of methods of training to help students along who may need it, or are lazy. This is about altering the art itself, the techniques, the basics, the advanced stuff, the forms, whatever, so that you're not really getting the authentic stuff because you're not a closed door student.



I understand what you're saying efist I just dont' agree that it has to be different. It's like saying that as a car dealer, if you don't appear to be serious, or fit my criteria for a truck person, I might try to sell you something that's not quite what you're looking for, because you may not know any better. I understad all the hard work and determination that these guys have put into it, but at the sametime, why open a school if you know you're going to have to decieve 80% of the people who walk through the door?

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
I understad all the hard work and determination that these guys have put into it, but at the sametime, why open a school if you know you're going to have to decieve 80% of the people who walk through the door?

Let's put it this way... after all the time and resources put into martial arts, how much room is there for some other marketable skill in the US? Oft times the school is opened for survival. Finding the few students willing and able to learn are bonuses.

Yah, it's selling out, but hey, that's life...

[Ray Pina]

Red, I really understand what you're saying. I'm not saying this is right, I'm just saying its the way it is but I can understand than side of it too.

It's not like my master is advertising for students, he's not in the yellow pages. In fact, while the guy who was going to introduce me bled me for as many dinners as he could get out of me first, I tried all I could to find master Bond Chan. I asked at all the MA stores, the parks, walked into a few shadey places that I had a feeling about. It wasn't easy.

Pretty much all of his students came to him from hearing baout him or after getting beat by one of his students. It's a very traditional school. When I started 3 or 4 years ago there were two non-Chinese students including me. Now there are more. Now it's about 50/50.

Here's another one: my teacher won't teach Japanese. When we get the stuff, we can. But my master's father was killed by the Japanese and his Hsing-I master, grandmaster Sou, made him promise to never teach the Japanese before he would instruct him.

These are Chinese arts. I'm learning from an older Chinese man. I have to do it their way. And I have to say, I kind of like it and relate to it. (this is not to say that some of my Non-Asian teachers didn't teach me a lot. They did.)

[Ford Prefect]

I think it's BS now-a-days and being mired in useless tradition will only bring down the traditional arts. This is modern day America. You're life will not be threatenned by teaching the wrong person the genuine thing. If somebody pays to learn something, they deserve to get what they pay for. BJJ schools don't do this. As far as I know wrestling teams don't do this. Boxing clubs don't do this. Using E-fists example, baseball, football, and basketball programs don't do this.

They teach everybody the same things and the cream rises to the top. They don't teach crap to this guy because he doesn't seem motivated or this guy because he isn't praticipating in only that activity. Everybody is taught the same. The difference is made in natural talent and dedication. Obviously the more time training, the more you'll learn.

[Ray Pina]

Just read your post about showing wrong technique on video. Yes, I know some people that do this too. I know of a Hung Gar teacher who teaches different generations of students different versions of the same form. You should see the problems that come up when they're all in the same room ... quite funny .... and not a fighter among them.

I also understand showing less than the best on video. Hell, if I bought a Gracie video I'd expect to see the basic, the general idea, but I'd be sure that they have some special training, some special leverage that only more advanced students (say brown and up) get. I'd go even further and think there's stuff that hasn't left the family. They should keep some stuff for themselves.

[FngSaiYuk]

Ford,

What I'm reading in between your lines is - if the basic training is too difficult to support a school, then the training methods are incorrect?

[Ray Pina]

But I think it is that way. These guys are making it sound like these masters discriminate blindly. It's not so.

You come in and you are shown something, probbaly pretty much the same type of thing every newbie is shown. Do you get it? Do you digest it? OK, you get more. So on and so forth.

Personally, my master teaches everyone the same. His thinking is, maybe you don't "get it" now, but build up the basics, the foundation and one day you might get a big light bulb.

Of course if you're a disciple, or like his adopted daughter who lives at the school, you're around all the time, of course you get more. It's not intentional, it's just natural. You're there. You're interested.

How many people here feel like they trully have been robbed? Have put in so much effort that their teacher should've been given them more? That they mastered all that they've been given?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I also understand showing less than the best on video. Hell, if I bought a Gracie video I'd expect to see the basic, the general idea, but I'd be sure that they have some special training, some special leverage that only more advanced students (say brown and up) get. I'd go even further and think there's stuff that hasn't left the family. They should keep some stuff for themselves. This is one of the reasons the Torrance Gracie has lost the majority of its advanced students to other BJJ teachers over the years.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
I think the real question here is, should REAL kung fu (as defined by Ross' idea of REAL since this is the orignal context of red5's post) only be taught to those judged as 'worthy'? You can only teach "fake" stuff in a sitiuation where there is no pressure testing against others from the outside. Can you imagine trying to field a basketball team where only 'fake" basketball was taught to the players?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Before you know it the two schools are pitted against each other. And that's how your techniques evolve even further.

[red5angel]

Oft times the school is opened for survival.

bad idea in this day and age, most of the instructors and school owners I know have a day job, or atleast a rich spouse. If you have to seel out, or choose to sell out just to keep your school supporting you I have to question your motives. I'm not saying you can't have a successful school and not sell out, and I'm not even saying that you can't start a successful school, and offer a couple of aerobics/taichi for health type classes. I'm saying that if you don't want to teach someone, or don't want to teach what you advertise, then don't teach.


efist - your instructor seems to be the kind of guy who doesn't so much misdirect as just withhold. I can handle that, he's not misleading those who come through the door, he just wants to see if you got what it takes to stick it out.


I think it's BS now-a-days and being mired in useless tradition will only bring down the traditional arts.

In my opinion Ford, this is exactly what this sort of practice is doing. They teach crappy techniques or the "wrong" techniques and it causes all sorts of issues. Look at the energy spent on arguing who's stuff is the real deal as it is, much less add this sort of crap into it.


These guys are making it sound like these masters discriminate blindly. It's not so.

While I'm sure there is some "blind" discrimination going on, my point is really to say that misleading the populace is inexcusable. Some people want to write it off as that's just the way it is or was in their time. Well, In my grandmothers time it was ok to hate people who weren't the same color as you but I won't allow my grandmother to tell racist jokes or make racists remarks while I'm around. I won't stand for it and times change, and they have to move on as well as everyone else. I don't care if the chinese in the old country were ok with being mislead, I'm not, and I"m pretty sure most americans aren't either.


How many people here feel like they trully have been robbed? Have put in so much effort that their teacher should've been given them more? That they mastered all that they've been given?

Just imagine this: Imagine that your master has passed away, and you go to train with another instructor, or someone who was as close or closer to him. You get to the school, you put on your silk pajamas ;) ad you start warming up doing a particular form/drill. The other guy watches you for a moment then stops you and shows you how it's "supposed" to be done. He knows because that's what he was shown by the old guy before he passed away. Now what if what he shows you is verifiably better then what you have?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
OK, I agree that it's not just about the students, however you're ignorning my points that teachers are just as human as students. And all the good stuff has been acquired through decades of dedicated, strenuous and PAINFULL training. It's only human to bother attempting to teach this stuff only to those who show the dedication to actually learn it.


okay, so your teacher starts showing the the wrong way to do your techniques and applications. After two years of training, he decides you really are dedicated. He now has to show the the right way, and you basically have to start completely over, because you spent the past two years training crap...What sense does that make?

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
my point is really to say that misleading the populace is inexcusable.

Heheh, stay away from politics, the media, big corps... hmmm... mebe there's a reason for those hermit in the mountain legends...

::grin::

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by SevenStar
okay, so your teacher starts showing the the wrong way to do your techniques and applications. After two years of training, he decides you really are dedicated. He now has to show the the right way, and you basically have to start completely over, because you spent the past two years training crap...What sense does that make?

OK, bear in mind that my arguments stem off of the orginal context of Ross' teacher - in the stories, he's not teaching 'crap' to his students. His seniors instruct his students and the students that show real initiative and dedication get promoted.

The 'crap' was taught to people who aren't looking to be his students, but rather are looking for a particular set, or some other fairly specific thing.

Since the impression of these people looking only for something specific is that of little real respect for the man, it's rather human to give the person what they think they want and take the cash.

No, it's not noble, no it doesn't display high character and ethics... and it may not be 'right', but it's how people are.

I find there a considerable gap between present reality and any kind of utopian ideals of how things should be. Gap as in, no realistic path between present reality and the ideal.

[Ray Pina]

"You can only teach "fake" stuff in a sitiuation where there is no pressure testing against others from the outside.":)

....

Knifefighter, no doubt my ground game has improved the year or so this gentelam trained with me because he gave me the opportunity to test and roll around. But, in the end, we had different ideas about our training.

There is no doubt in my mind that I will face the Gracie school when I'm ready. I'll have to. They have the name and they're just a few blocks away.

[Ray Pina]

Red, you make some good points.

One of the things that's unique about my teacher is that he teaches formula, not form. I feel like I'm starting to "get it" now, to where I could move and go away and continue my study on my own, but I would still be missing a lot of course. The one thing I would want more of would be internal and to study weapons with his daughter.

As far as the fighting over who has what, I'm sure a lot of people had their eyes opened a little over Mr. Ross posts about his master. There are folks like this who live a quiet life and never show a thing to anyone, or a very few. They don't care what people say up on Kung Fu boards, they're content with their own study.

It is sad that not every school has good instruction, or even so so instruction. The best that could be said I guess is buyer beware.

In the case of high level masters, I don't look at it like they're selling me a car. I look at it as if they are sharing their treasure with me. To even open the chest in front of me and let me see it .... Wow. And then to let me take some home, piece by piece, a few times a week. Man, I am grateful already.

[Ford Prefect]

If they are "sharing" something with me, then I will treat it as such. They aren't though. I'm paying them to provide me with a service. I don't expect professors to purposely mislead students in the laws of physics because they aren't going to future physicists. I don't expect basketball coaches to mislead the majority of their kids in the proper mechanics of a jump shot because they aren't going to a D-1 school or the NBA... It's really not acceptable in any place I can think of off the top of me head. I don't see why people think it's acceptable there.

Different people might get shown more because they show up more or get things quicker. This is natural. Purposefully misleading though... Complete BS.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect


I'm paying them to provide me with a service



This is the American way, it is NOT the TCMA way, and it's why you get taught BS....

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
This is one of the reasons the Torrance Gracie has lost the majority of its advanced students to other BJJ teachers over the years.

That is a trueism for many schools in general. They don't know where to draw the line when it comes to "the door".

In some schools BBs tend to feel a sense of abandonment when they reach BB since their school in question might not have an ongoing program. A "graduate school" if you will.

[SifuAbel]

The "I'm paying for a service." mentality is one that should be set on fire and then buried quickly after. This mentality puts the teacher of any skill on the level of a maid or a nail groomer(not to knock the services, they are just different). You pay for instruction in college, yet you could fail and not be graduated and it wouldn't be the teachers fault. The only real burden a college professor has is to present the information in a timely fashion. I remember a time in this country where you had to "try out" for any team sports, little league etc. Now little jimmy can suck totally as long as they are full up to their dues.

As far as the MA teacher is concerned , you are paying for a spot on the floor. It doesn't gaurantee you a spot on the "squad". This is where the mcdojo spreads the butter in promising that you will be at X level in Y time NO MATTER WHAT.

Perhaps CTS went a little far with the waterdown. You can teach simply and still give something that is worthwhile. Some teachers may change aspects of training while still makeing that change useable even at a basic level. Not really the WRONG way but a SIMPLER way and only to a point.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
This is the American way, it is NOT the TCMA way, and it's why you get taught BS....

but if the TCMA is charging someone money to train, they have therefore given in to the american way, have they not? Now, if they aren't charging, that's a different story, I suppose.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
The "I'm paying for a service." mentality is one that should be set on fire and then buried quickly after. This mentality puts the teacher of any skill on the level of a maid or a nail groomer(not to knock the services, they are just different). You pay for instruction in college, yet you could fail and not be graduated and it wouldn't be the teachers fault. The only real burden a college professor has is to present the information in a timely fashion. I remember a time in this country where you had to "try out" for any team sports, little league etc. Now little jimmy can suck totally as long as they are full up to their dues.

if the professor is teaching his students the wrong information, it's entirely his fault. you can't teach me HTML and test me on C++...

As far as the MA teacher is concerned , you are paying for a spot on the floor. It doesn't gaurantee you a spot on the "squad". This is where the mcdojo spreads the butter in promising that you will be at X level in Y time NO MATTER WHAT.

not being on the squad is fine. I can work my way up to that. But, teach me what I need to get there, don't mislead me. This thread reminds me of RD's thread from about 2 years ago where he was talking about opening a McKwoon intentionally...

[lkfmdc]

Guys like Chan Tai San have a mind set that most Americans can never understand. I'm not Chinese, I don't agree, but I got to understand at least what he was thinking

It wasn't about paying for lessons. It was about being a student, which means taking care of your teacher. Sifu for a day, sifu for life, and the committment to "sifu" is a big deal....

Your teacher nees a little extra this month, you are responsible for giving it to him

YOur teacher wants to sent some money home to his uncle, you are responsible for getting that money

Your teacher has $2000 in gambling debts, you are responsible for paying it

It is a mind set most Americans will never get, much less agree with, the "return" is you will get the "real stuff"

[SifuAbel]

7*,

Would you mind including the last paragraph? You know, context.

[Royal Dragon]

Seven Star,

Actually, it reminds me of that one too. The difference is I was planning on controlling the AMOUNT of teachings, not intentionally teaching people wrong.

What is being discussed here is when a high level master simply decides he does not feel like teaching you, even though he has agreed to, so he lies and feeds you made up crap.

This has NOTHING to do with money at this point. He has broken his agreement, scammed his student, and dishonored himself, and his art, by not honoring his agreements.

So far as opening a MCkwoon intentionally, here's how I see that. It's like Gymnastics. They have "General Public" courses, and "Competitive" courses. Each course teaches the SAME fundementals, skills, and developement. The difference is in how HARD the training is, and how far the progam takes you.

They donot teach the "General Public" courses intentionally wrong because they just don't think you are worthy. The General public STILL gets the same skill sets. They are just not trained as hard, or as long. It's an easier, funner class, BUT they STILL get the real thing, and can transfer into the "Competitive" program anytime they are ready to meet the requirements.

This is what I want to do with a Kung Fu school. I don't think many of you guys got that when I did that thread. I think you all though I intended to just teach whatever crap I could make up and take the $$.That was never the case. All I was going to do is have a lower intesity program, and a higher intensity one. It will be the same material, same skills, same knowledge.

The point of that thread was to basically point out that the low intensity classes were what I was going to cater to because THAT is where the six figure income is. The higher intensity classes are there for the hard core who wants higher levels of skill. I was going to use the "General Public" program to support the Traditional one. The students themselves could decide which is right for them, and either way I get thier $$ and they are happy.

The rest of you "Purists" would be happy too, because there would be one place that real Kung Fu thrived, even in the General Public program.

It was more about what level the student is willing to train at, NOT wheather or not he was being taught crap, or the real thing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
7*,

Would you mind including the last paragraph? You know, context.

for which part - being on the squad, or being reminded of RDs thread?

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
If they are "sharing" something with me, then I will treat it as such. They aren't though. I'm paying them to provide me with a service.


not to justify what everything CTS did,

have you used the following products:

blue screen of death: windows 3.1, windows 95, windows 98, windows NT 4.0, WINDOWS ME, windows 2000 (vast improve over previous microsoft prod, but still problems), window xp, etc.

security issues: internet explorer

Ford explorer SUV with firestone tire.

fastfood that clug the arteries.

there are crap on sales and people keep buying it. they do exist.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Seven Star,

Actually, it reminds me of that one too. The difference is I was planning on controlling the AMOUNT of teachings, not intentionally teaching people wrong.

What is being discussed here is when a high level master simply decides he does not feel like teaching you, even though he has agreed to, so he lies and feeds you made up crap.

This has NOTHING to do with money at this point. He has broken his agreement, scammed his student, and dishonored himself, and his art, by not honoring his agreements.

this I agree with.


This is what I want to do with a Kung Fu school. I don't think many of you guys got that when I did that thread. I think you all though I intended to just teach whatever crap I could make up and take the $$.That was never the case. All I was going to do is have a lower intesity program, and a higher intensity one. It will be the same material, same skills, same knowledge.

actually, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

[red5angel]

This is the American way, it is NOT the TCMA way, and it's why you get taught BS....

This is america not china. you want to teach people to fight you teach them to fight you don't teach thtm eto lie and decieve.



You pay for instruction in college, yet you could fail and not be graduated and it wouldn't be the teachers fault.

That's not completely true, althouigh it might hold some water if you're an instructor that doesn't want to own up to what you responsibility is. Please allow me to correct you - I pay for a college class, the instructor doens't guarentee that I will graduate, however the college and the instructor guarentee that I'm supposed to get the correct information to graduate. I may not choose to do anything with that information or I may choose to apply myself and excel. This is not a one sided relationship.
An instructor does not have to instruct if he feels he cannot survive while doing it. An instructor cannot also complain about the watered down garbage that surreounds him, when he's ****ing in the pot as well.


The "I'm paying for a service." mentality is one that should be set on fire and then buried quickly after.

so long as the "I have to decieve people to make money" attitude is burnt along with it.


It wasn't about paying for lessons. It was about being a student, which means taking care of your teacher. Sifu for a day, sifu for life, and the committment to "sifu" is a big deal....

Sifu doesn't think he wants to give you the real deal today so suckm it up and take his watered down crap instead.....

I undestand the difference between closed door students and non closed door students, what I'm saying is there is absolutely no reason what so ever, except ego, to hide crap from people and to change it on them. If I would have spent some time in a kwoon learning a technique, only to find out later I had to learn it all over cause you didn't want to show me the real thing, I'd be fukking ****ed off. I don't pay my money, sweat and bleed, only to get crap. You take this sort of attitude as an instructor of anykind, no matter what culture your from, you don't deserve the respect.


This has NOTHING to do with money at this point. He has broken his agreement, scammed his student, and dishonored himself, and his art, by not honoring his agreements.

Too many people are too willing to write this off as cultural bullsht, it's sickening. I especially don't expect this from you Ross, since you're always harping on the TCMA guys on this forum for following tradition and getting too bogged down in all of that crap. My bet is you don't teach your students the wrong way before you teach them the right way.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by SevenStar
for which part - being on the squad, or being reminded of RDs thread?

"Perhaps CTS went a little far with the waterdown. You can teach simply and still give something that is worthwhile. Some teachers may change aspects of training while still makeing that change useable even at a basic level. Not really the WRONG way but a SIMPLER way and only to a point."

[lkfmdc]

I'm not Chan Tai San, I'm not Chinese, I'm not teaching traditional kung fu either....

I have a different "vision" so to speak

But I can also tell you, what we do isn't a "straight business transaction" either....

[FngSaiYuk]

A fool and his money are easily parted.

There's been a LOT of lucky, wealthy fools in the US...

Also, the quality of life in the US is quite high... you can be broke, but you won't be starving or out on the cold... So it's easy rather easy to lose your $$$'s in the US to shoddy service and products.

[Royal Dragon]

actually, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

Reply]
Ahh, you thought the made up crap part was my plan? Hell, if I was going to do that, I would have done it then. I had the space and everything in the back of the gym my daughter trained at.

No, I want to finnish my reseach, and get back into a school to build my skills, then teach similar to the way gymnastics is taught. Thier General Public programs lay the foundation for the Competitive ones. You can't do that if you are teaching crap to the GP's. It's got to all be the same stuff. Only the intensity changes.

For example, in the GP, we'd hold a horse stance for 36-72 seconds, in the Traditional, it could be as much as 10 minutes (My perosnal best btw). The body structure and all would be the same of course.

I'd teach the same forms, but get much more in depth with them in the Traditional program. In the GP, they'd get the same set, with propper fundementals, and the applications, just not as much in depth due to time, and the need for a more relaxed, fun atmosphere. Anytime they think they can handle training harder, longer, with more intensity, they can move up to the traditional program, or back down to the GP if they feel it is too much for thier life style.

See, what I have learned is it's NOT the quality of the teachings, it's the fun element that brings in the numbers. Those who are looking for a recreational program really just don't want to work as hard as those who want the traditional program. That is no reason to teach them wrong. Just don't feed them more than they can handle, and keep the fun factor up. It's STILL the same material, and the certs STILL only get passed out for the same level of understanding.

In the Rec/GP program, it will take much longer to get the cert (I'll probably use some sort of Sash system for ego gratifacation in the GP to fill the need), Traditionals only get Certs, and Black Sash when they graduate the course (Like 8-9 years in the Northern Tai tzu).

My thought would be to offer a 9 sash system to the GP's, but to get the cert, they'd have to pass stringent requirements, and have all the depth of knowledge as seen by those in the Traditional program. It will proably take 3 times as long that way, but it could be done as the material being taught IS the same.

[GLW]

Part of the justification in the minds of some of the Chinese teachers is very core to Chinese Culture....in so much as it links into how the culture views ethics, cheating, and getting the better end of the stick...or the short end.

What I mean:

A child takes their money and goes to the store for something. They pay their money and discover when they get home that the shopkeeper pulled a fast one on them.

The parent can do several things. A healthy approach is to use this as a teaching opportunity to instruct the child about being careful, making sure they don't get cheated, and then making sure they are aware that not all people are honest. THEN....take it up with the shopkeeper and make it right.

OR

The parent can let the child know they got taken and it was dumb...leaving the child to MAYBE learn to be more careful....but in the end, the child either loses self-esteem or becomes someone that does not trust anyone...and feels that since they were cheated, it is OK to cheat if you don't get caught.

In such instances, the person doing the cheating is NOT castigated for it. Rather, the person being cheated is blamed and labeled stupid or Gan Do.

I was in business with one of my teachers a long time back. We had a PROFESSIONAL Short Change Artist come in to the business. Now, I had three policies to avoid getting taken by such people: No bills larger than a $20 (the most expensive thing on the menu was $8.), Do NOT talk to me when I have the cash register open and am making change, AND after lunch rush, I balanced the cash register.

In this instance, my teacher broke all three rules. Told me to take the $50 the person offered and then started distracting me and asking questions about an order while I was trying to finish the transaction. I was then told that balancing the register was a waste of time.

End of business, we were exactly the difference for a short change instance with a $50 bill. I KNEW EXACTLY when and why it happened....but I was the one insulted and labeled dumb for "Allowing" it to happen...and the money came out of MY pocket.

This was the same teacher that thought nothing of telling me "Don't spend too much time teaching that student, they have not paid this month..." and "Don't show the others this, I showed them the wrong way since they are not Toe Dai...."

So, where am I going with this... In a situation where the one cheating is NOT criticized but rather admired in some ways as being "Clever" and the one being cheated is ridiculed and blamed even if they could NEVER know how to avoid being cheated without instruction, it is not too far of a leap to get to a mindset where it is OK to teach garbage to those that you don't like as long as they are giving you money.

[red5angel]

But I can also tell you, what we do isn't a "straight business transaction" either....

I'm not saying it is or should be, but you can't expect to offer a business transaction - and whether you want to admit it or not, teaching someone something for money is a business transaction AND a service - you have to honor that as well. You can't lie to someone and tell them you're going to teach them one thing, then not. If your honorable, if your a quality individual you're going to tell them you don't teach just anyone the art and you're going to have to earn my trust to learn the deeper aspects of the art. The more you put into it the more you get out of it.

[Royal Dragon]

if your a quality individual you're going to tell them you don't teach just anyone the art and you're going to have to earn my trust to learn the deeper aspects of the art. The more you put into it the more you get out of it.

Reply]
Exactly. If all did this, we might have alot of lower level Kung Fu, but it would be GOOD Kung Fu instead of total crap as seen in so many places.

[red5angel]

Exactly. If all did this, we might have alot of lower level Kung Fu, but it would be GOOD Kung Fu instead of total crap as seen in so many places.

I absolutely agree.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I think the real question here is, should REAL kung fu (as defined by Ross' idea of REAL since this is the original context of red5's post) only be taught to those judged as 'worthy'?)

Anything high level is only achieved by the very few. The upper levels by there very nature are really only available to a select few. Its always been this way.

Mr. Rosses thread while interesting, must have been pretty rough living through.

[David Jamieson]

Anything high level is only achieved by the very few. The upper levels by there very nature are really only available to a select few. Its always been this way.


b_leaf-

this made me think that i don't know if they are so much -available- as they are -achievable-

i don't think people can give you what is required to have kungfu. you can be shown how to use the tools. you can be taught the theory. you can be taught the principles. to achieve high level is entirely up to you once you have the framework taught to you.

pieces that were withheld, unknown are not there can be found, known and put there with time and practice and mindfulness towards what you are doing.

using other sources is even easier now than ever before in regards to theory and principle.

ultimately, kungfu is in the doing of it.

[sihing]

There should be a period of time to test someone's worthyness per say, but that doesn't mean you have to drastically change something and teach it to someone wrong, like changing a move in a form or whatever. If you don't want someone as a student then don't teach them, or if someone is a student and behaves in an inappropiate manner then kick them out of the school. My Sifu has had students fock him over in the past so he is very reluctant to bring someone in the inner circle, and by that I mean someone into the intimate group of seniors that are close to Sifu personally, but all are taught the samethings and to a high quality level. Whether or not they can make it work for themselves by working at it for long periods of time is another story. To be truthful though about teaching things to students, I could teach them everything about the Wing Chun system, all the tips and tricks, strategies or whatever and they still wouldn't get it. Sooner or later you have to work it for yourself to make it a part of yourself, so it is absorbed in your system. Once there it is yours for life...

James

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
This is the American way, it is NOT the TCMA way, and it's why you get taught BS....

lol! Alright. I've never demanded to be taught anything specific. When asked what I wanted to learn, it was always "whatever you teach me". Luckily for me, I had boxed for years before starting KF. I toiled away on the basics for months to "build my kung fu body" as the instructor would say. I never complained. Finally I get to see my first "sparring" session and saw some senior students. I almost crapped my pants. They couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I was shocked because the reason why I signed on with this guy is because I went to his seminar and this guy had skills. I toiled away for longer thinking that it might have been a fluke and I keep my eyes on the seniors. Nothing changed. I basically thought is how his seniors (my instructors) fought, then I wanted no part of it. I left. I went to another school, same thing...

I felt like I wasted over a year of my life doing crappy stances, footwork, drills, etc. I went back to my sport roots. I started focussing on BJJ with sides in wrestling, judo, and muay thai. Got taught effective stuff immediately. I fought immediately. And I got to test my skills in competitions immediately. That's the problem with KF. There is no immediate feedback loop. You can stay in a school for years and even decades and get taught crap. You'll never know because most don't fight outside their studio doors. In sports, what you're doing either works or you get busted up. If the instructor doesn't show the right way to do things and his students are constantly getting beat, nobody will train there. There is something tangible to look at other than hoping that wax-on/wax-off turns into a skill.

My instructors were two well-known KF people too. Sometimes I entertain the idea of going back to find another school, but after remembering these experiences, I quickly forget it. These guys were supposed to be "real". haha! I won't fall for that again. I guess I'd just continue to train my useless sports and be able to tune up those fools that fell for the BS hook, line, and sinker. Oh. I feel so left out.

[red5angel]

(I think the real question here is, should REAL kung fu (as defined by Ross' idea of REAL since this is the original context of red5's post) only be taught to those judged as 'worthy'?)

more specifically, I'm saying that one who wants to teach to the public, should not change or alter what they teach for the general public, especially if it's wrong. The way you teach it can be changed, the amount you teach it can be changed but not the content itself.
If you choose to train people very slowly to weed out the ones who don't have "stickwithitude" that's fine, I'm ok with that, hell I think it's a good idea. however, if you alter the techniques/forms/drills so that they are not what they are supposed to be, then I have a serious problem with that. The line that essentially shocked me from Ross' thread was where he mentions watching an ENTIRE class doing the wrong kind of footwork. Footwork is a basic skill, and it's an integral skill to most martial arts. Teaching it wrong is a betrayal in my opinion, one of the worst kind. While Ross and his teacher looked on bemused at the incorrectness of this class' footwork, I don't think there is anything funny about it. You want to teach and you want to teach publicly, you teach what you know, you don't alter it for some people and not for everyone. You shouldn't alter it at all unless you have a sound reason for doing so in the context of it's effectiveness.

[scotty1]

I agree entirely with Red5.

Omitting advanced techniques or endless drilling of the basics is one thing, but teaching someone 'wrong' is another.

[Ford Prefect]

That's what I'm gettin at Scotty. Some people get things quicker and spend more time training. Naturally this would lead to more instruction. To teach people the wrong things off the bat until they've "proven" themselves is BS and shouldn't happen.

[FngSaiYuk]

And if you continue from there, those students who've been taught incorrectly will go out and start their own schools and teach the incorrect techniques w/o knowing it and eventually their students will do the same and so on and so forth...

So I guess if you REALLY wanna fight, stick to the places that put out full contact sports competitors... "cuz ya never know what yer gonna git"

[Mika]

I think historical and cultural aspects should be treated as such, in other words, we shouldn't judge people - we really can't, we might not fully understand the big picture, especially if a lot of time has passed - but to learn from their actions and especially motives.

Now, when the time is here and not in the past and when the cultures are mixed, then we have a problematic situation. Whose point of view matters?

I for one cannot answer that, not at least in a way that I could proudly say is "the truth and the only truth".

So, I can only give my 2 cents. And by that I mean that if the matter is of principal nature to me, as this matter definitely is, then I will do what I can to make sure the circumstances with which I am involved respond to what I see correct - or at least that they don't resemble what I consider incorrect. And I can only speak for myself, I can't judge someone else for taking another course of action.

Teaching someone step by step is the best way, IMHO. How many steps can a person take in a given time? Who knows, but that really is up to the person, not the teacher. If the person gets tired of waiting AND is not putting forth the effort, then so be it. Prostituting yourself and the art is NOT the answer, it's morally and ethically wrong, not to mention what kind of problems it creates. The style might get a bad name, for starters. If people are taught the wrong way for money, the character of the person doing so could be questioned - in martial arts, especially, the teacher is supposed to be a role model of sorts. Perfect? Heck no, but where anyone draws the line is his call. I draw it here. No teaching crap, not for money, not for any reason.

A role model. If a person is just a tough fighter and learnt that from another tough fighter, then that's one kind of role model, even if these folks have no other desirable attributes - and even if they possess some questionable characteristics.

By role model I mean someone who is more well-rounded and can be trusted to some degree to a positive guiding force in general. Not Mother Theresa, but just AVERAGE enough that no really bad stuff comes out of the kitchen.

But that's just my 2 cents, all just very IMHO, and it only applies to my surroundings, I am not judging or "giving advice" (Gor forbid!), OK? :)

And I am not referring to the person being discussed in the other thread. I enjoy reading that as much as anyone else :)

Cheers :)

//mika

[Ray Pina]

In the end its really simple....

1) You get what you get and think its alright and never really know or think about it.

2) You get what you get, go out and test and find out some things aren't working. You then
a) ask why and see if an upgrade is available and work it, or b) asky why, see the guy has no answer for you and is a fake and go somewhere else.

To me, my natural evolution has been to study something until I find its limitation and then go elsewhere to build on the overall foundation.

People get upset when they were told X is the good stuff and they believe it and go around thinking they have the good stuff and pointing a finger at this type of karate, that type of TKD or kung fu or wrestling and get called on it. When someone says, well show me, they are taken back. Because that type of vocabulary was just not part of the training, the prove it to me stage.

A student can then do two things. Rationalize this away because they feel they have gained some position or rank and stay where they are or move on. It's that simple.

Guys who don't want to fight will never know what they have or don't have. So as long as its fun nobody gets hurt and 90% of MA schools survive by this. Those that want to fight find out real quick and find what suits them.

I don't want this to be taken as a "sport" vs "non-sport" post. It's a matter of a teacher knowing you're going out and arming you, or you arming yourself.... I'm one for taking responsibility for myself.

How do you study martial arts and not get dirty?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

People get upset when they were told X is the good stuff and they believe it and go around thinking they have the good stuff and pointing a finger at this type of karate, that type of TKD or kung fu or wrestling and get called on it. When someone says, well show me, they are taken back. Because that type of vocabulary was just not part of the training, the prove it to me stage.


I think part of the problem is people's obsession with having "the good stuff"...

[Ray Pina]

When it comes to MA I'm a glutton:)

I want it good, I want it cheap (easy) and I want it to last (easy to maintain).